SUSPENSION COMPARISON - Let’s Go Racing Season 2, Episode 5
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2022
- One of the most important components of any mountain bike is suspension. With no component sponsors this season, Brian Cahal is in a unique position as a professional rider to test and evaluate critical parts he will put on his Forbidden Dreadnaught for the EWS race season. In this episode, Brian dives deep into the on-trail performance differences of FOX, RockShox, Ohlins, and EXT forks and shocks. Enjoy!
#MTB #mountainbike #enduro - Sport
I’m just saying….we wouldn’t mind a long form version of this video breaking down what setups you used, more in depth commentary on how it felt etc. This has been a great series, awesome job guys!
Good to know! Might do a longer format more in depth breakdown on each set up on my own channel at some point.
This is such a great series really enjoying your insights!
agreed. I love the details and am happy for MORE nerdy details - talk about Fork Oil, brake oil, handle bar width, risers, crank length, suspension settings - EVERYTHING!
@@mchong91 full bike check coming next! Lot's more details I wanted to fit in here but the video would have been like 40 mins. Might do more in depth vids on each fork on my own channel later. And you can check out the last episode where I covered cockpit set up czcams.com/video/7YZo0jboZYI/video.html
The best explanation and comparison I've seen so far on suspension, great work 🔥
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
I have the ohlins and came from fox grip 2. Agree with what you say. Normally Riding in the parking lot fork feels weird, but on the trail, oh my is it awesome. I won’t go back to anything else, the support with bump sensitivity is insane. It’s hard to describe the feel from the ohlins. It’s supple but you feel the trail underneath you. It’s just awesome
I've had some similar experiences with single positive air chamber forks. They force you to compromise too much for heavier and aggressive riders. Dual positive chamber forks are the future for air forks in my opinion. Way better in every way.
At least RS solved their Pre 2014 issue of air springs creating preload for pressures needed to support riders over 70kg
Not only that but they can also be tuned to work well for lighter riders - I tried an EXT Era V1 and it felt a little 'heavy', but man it stuck to a line well! I had it on for a week or two thanks to the shop I worked in and played around with air pressures and compression/rebound settings during that time. Definitely felt it when I moved back to my 36. I weigh about 130lb's at 5'9".
I'd like to try an Era V2 (I wonder which version Brian had?)
one of the most informative series on YT...keep up the good work
Love the content from Brian! He does a great job explaining how the different setups feel and what he likes about them. Keep the vids coming!
Great breakdown of the suspension. I enjoyed watching them go through the travel as you describe the ride characters of each one. I've been on Rockshox since 09 because the base model forks have all worked good enough to gain my confidence Pike, Lyric, now Zeb.
Great personal comparison, input! Thank you!
Most underrated CZcams series, thanks dude it was awesome 🤙
Really good series! Looking forward to the deep dive of your frame geometry.
Helpful analysis! Good luck this season!
I feel the same way about the big 2. RS easy to make feel OK, Fox always a compromise. Both seem to lose composure when pushed.
I currently run Manitou on my bikes now because frankly it just works. Easy to service and stays composed when pushed. Great balance of comfort and performance.
Thanks Brian! Great comparisons!
loving this series, keep it rollin!!
Something that surprises me is no one talks about coil springs in forks, when the original Marzocchi Bomber came out with dual coils in oil bath stanchions it was a game changer. I run a FOX 36 and 38 with the Vorsprung Smashpot kit, full travel, super supple and no more harsh bottom outs. If you are counting grams then I guess thats your call but "on coil" is where its at for me.
me too, Smachpot changed my rides
Be nice to see Manitou (Mezzer and Mara Pro) represented.
I am loving my ext shock.
Great review! I’d like to hear more about how your season goes.
Great review, I really appreciate your insight and perspective. Personally I run Fox but not a racer, just an avid mountain biker. I’ve recently sent my 34Fox Float for service from Fox. It definitely made a huge difference in the supple feel and easier to get full travel.
I remember when Ohlins made their entry into MTB, I knew they were going to rock.
Probably the most valuable thing in the videos is the distinction - that some components are better for racing purposes. This could spare a lot of cash for riders that want good components but are not racing - like me. Thanks!
I run an Oehlins TTX coil on my downhill bike, upgrade coming from a RS coil team, it improved the bike lots in regards to control. Still run Boxxer coil in the front which works fine for Downhill. I also agree to Fox being buttery. For a park bike Rock Shox Lyric/ZEB Ultimate is my preferred choice and they are available at a bargain quite often. Using tokens, and high speed compression it‘s possible to find a sweet spot in particular if you‘re a bike park rider. I also have a DVO Topaz Air 1 shock, feels good in action, but always loses air from the bladder and makes some clunky noises at times. RS Super Deluxe air for a bike park or trail bike, is a great shock for quality and value as well.
Really good description 👌
Loving this series! I wonder how the fox and rockshox would compare if they had a DSD Runt or something similar to make them a dual air chamber?
I also ride on EXT suspension, have Fox Factory on my previous bike and also tried out RS.
I totally agree with your judgement.
I really love my EXT fork, BUT only when I am giving it above 90%, it really comes alive. Which is fun on wild runs in the bikepark, but long days out, or chill trail riding makes it so much more strenous. Also I feel it's a little overdamped, even though I run all the damping way open. I guess that's adjustable during the oncoming service, though.
Same issue with the fox forks not being supple when trying to get mid stroke. Solved this really well with a DSD runt.
I've got myself zeb ultimate my2023 and despite still being single air chamber, feels a lot different from earlier model :)
Sick videos you guys shoukd do rotor size comparison and/or brake pads
I'm not sure if someone has mentioned it below but your EXT forks may have bushings which are to tight with not enough clearance as they have been known to have. I have a pair that felt horrible from the factory and had to send them to EXT Australia for warranty (even though) they came with my frame from Kavenz. Glad you're happy with the your choice.
I am loving my Ohlins stuff 👍
Riding ohlins 36m2 160mm/TTX Air on MDK Foxy and the setup feels definitely harsher then Fox (36/x2) combo on previous Superfoxy. No more supple at the top. When I am fresh I can go fast, but when tireness kicks in (becasue earlier arm pump) I am wandering all over the place. Seems more fitted for the muscles. btw riding 81kg kitted and finding out the rebound too slow for my liking even full open on both units.
Keep it coming, very nice series so far.
I'm interested to know how your race settings (spring rate, LSC etc.) vary from manufacturer's recommended settings. Or simply from your preferred everyday riding settings, if at all.
Did you put bottomless tokens in the fox and rockshox? That solved the issue for me on my boxxer. Took 4 of ‘em but it got the job done. I used the Meg-Neg air cab for my rear shock.
Thank you 🙏 it’s rare to see direct comparisons between products these days, it’s all far too sales driven it’s seems
Miss the old Marzocchi’s.
Interesting that RS and Fox are lumped together seeing as riders usually have a distinct preference between the two. Getting a bike soon with Ohlins so, as a long time Fox fan, I’m excited to try it out
I have not run the Fox 38, but with the 36, I've found it's mid stroke support is better than my Zeb. Both feel pretty supple initially, but the Zeb goes through it's mid stroke more quickly before ramping up at the end. The Fox is more consistent, but seems more hesitant to use it's final 20% of travel unless I am doing a big drop. Never had the chance to run Ohlin's on my MTB yet., but I am not EWS fast, so I am not likely the target audience for it and any performance advantage would be wasted on at my skill level.
+1 same opinion. I have a Zeb Ultimate, Fox 36 Grip2 and a Grip1.
Just got a new bike and it came with the Ohlins 38 and the TTX coil. Looking forward to getting it dialed. Have Fox 38 and Float X2 on my old bike and liked that so I am encouraged with the new setup. Great review. Thanks.
Can you provide any comparison feedback? Very interesting to know.
Yes. I think that the Ohlins shock and fork seem a little simpler to set up and modulate the settings. I found that the Fox systems were great but complex. I love the suppleness of the Ohlins fork and coil shock.
The 2022 Zeb is not very good without secus upgrade and rather than ohlins you could have gone with mezzer which is a great fork that you can service yourself and it's much cheaper too. I don't understand why you like the bleeder valves. I don't think they make a difference other than making it super easy to add a bit of oil once in a while. I wish Manitou would make a coil option but DVO Jade runs well too.
Still rocking on my 2016 BOS fcv, I wonder have the fox and rockshox catch up with that after all these years.
How much of an impact do you think frame kinematics had to with the preferred suspension manufacturer?
My EXT shock and fork does not feel harsh at all, yet its supportive enough. So I am curious why you did not find it 5o be so for you. I might not have it set up perfect but sure is stable and comfortable, but I have not tried the Era v2. But not tried Öhlins. If I change something it won't be much, so fs ri am running compression open, but I will experiment some later. A thing I noticed is how much the provided lube helps to freshen up the fork, it made an massive difference, fork is more sensitive and less noisy when I put lube on the stanchion cycle the fork trough, and of course wipe. So when fork starts to be sticky, the lube will solve it. The fork felt great. I am not sure if it needs service yet. But the oil sure made it perform like new. So probably a good idea to wipe stanchions, make sure dust wiper is clean and add oil and cycle trough regurally. My shock is Storia lok v3, but it's on a Geometron G1, so it's the G1 Edition, so it has custom tune and spherical bearings.
I experience the same thing with my rockshox fork and airshock too. either it's souple but i'm bottoming out everywhere or it's hard and harsh. I'm running the hard setup but with quite a lot of rebound so that the suspensions doesn't feel dead. fortunately the end of the fork is really smooth, bottoming out with a RS fork is a dream but my legs can feel my shock bottoming out and it's not good.
Thank you for the series vital mtb and for you unbiased opinion.
Si donde así mucho pon mas tokens
The Forks I run Boxxer fork with latest damping and air up grade and have never been happy but changed the oils in the damper with the new Maxima 3w fork oil and a lot better as a x motocrosser have loads of different oils and some some rare Kayaba oil but this new maxima oil works great and internal stiction is much improved so much so the the High speed damping feels a lot better on the damper assembly and the air side doesn't suffer packing.
Many Fox forks have issues due to overgreasing. Did you open them up to see if that was the case?
Ive ridden fox and Öhlins, the trade off i felt was the exact same you mention. Since im not a racer i think my pick is fox
Ohlins - Loic Bruni and Finn Iles would agree. Really curious to try Ohlins over Fox / Rockshox.
they race on whatever they are sponsored by
@@muchacho7 Yes I know that. More a comment on their results and how well their suspension appears to work. Specialized was one of the first big brands to adopt Ohlins. They wouldn’t have it on their bikes if they didn’t think it worked very well, especially the race team.
It's worked very well because they had the best mechanic out there
@@BurnsRubber They are just defending the other brands not seeing that you said nothing bad about other brands - they are all different. But it's true that all pros run custom tunings, so we are not the ones to compare their stuff to ours. It's clear that Ohlins are on the same level with other brands; however, for casual riders such things as support, reliability and ease of maintenance are much more important... and availability of parts.
@@BurnsRubber the top guys would win on anything and if you get factory support your suspension is tuned to perfection. I once bought an ex factory team boxxer with supposedly some small mods and jesus that thing was leaps and bounds over what people were running. Given I am also a moron who likes a lot of damping despite riding much slower than the pros but still.
Went from the a fox 36 and dhx2 on my 2017 YT Capra to ohlins 38 and coil on a 2022 Capra. I can't explain why it feels so much better but the small bump sensitivity and heavy impacts. Doesn't make sense to me since there should always be a trade-off between one or the other but it has been amazing
Agree with you regarding the Fox forks. On my 36, for traction tuning, I’ve switch to running high sag 25-35% with tokens to utilize all the travel. Then add compression for support in the first half of travel. For bike parks/jumps I’ll air-up to add pop (since my jumps skills are non-existent). Edit: By high sag I mean closer to 35%.
35% is A LOT
@@ApostolosK06 Measured it at 32%. Normally I’m a 20% guy. My 36 doesn’t use all of its at low to normal sag.
@@BurnsRubber Do you have volume spacers/ don't ride very aggressive terrain? My friends that ride 38s don't use like 2cm of their travel unless we ride some very gnarly stuff
@@ApostolosK06 Aggressive is relative… Going by Strava (yeah…I know), I’m typically in top 5-10% or even 1% on trails I know. I suspect there is something wrong with my 36, or some 36/38, or it’s just the way they behave? Sounds like Brian had similar issues with his 38… My previous bike/fork was a Ripley with 140mm Pike. I was constantly bottoming out that fork, which is why I upgraded to the Ripmo. The rear end is bottom out well ahead of my 36. I have tokens and fair amount of compression on my X2 and run about 25% sag. If I want to want to use all the 36 travel, I find I need a lower ride height. It shouldn’t require a big huck to flat to get the fork to bottom out. If you have any ideas, let me know.
@@BurnsRubber if you aren't using just the top ~10% then I would say it's better to just leave it at 20-25%. That said it's weird that you have to ride the fork so soft in order to bottom out (Jesse melamed said he likes a soft feel on his forks but only rides 25%). I really can't think of anything you don't know already so hope you find a solution
propper bike news work man! because u dont give a F. about brands and u CAN to sumarize it without bias, love it!
I’m more into jumping and I’m running base rock show but I want to get into tech but I still want it to be playful what would you suggest
Hi. Have you done timed laps? Wich has won? Thanks.
It is the best thing I have seen so far. Great review, however let me please ask you.... isn't it very personal? I watched one of the best enduro rider in the world now Jessy Melamed and he rides his Rocky Mountain enduro bike very soft and almost no rebound (very quick). As he said for Jessy the most importand to safe hands and just safe energy for long enduro race day.
I have not ridden EXT or Ohlins. I have Zeb that felt as described so I installed a Luftkappe and Push HC97. It now feels absolutely amazing. Tons of midstroke support and feels 1000x better on square edges at speed.
I’d be interested to see a test where they try an upgraded Zeb again Ohlins or EXT? Although it’s probably not the most realistic?
proper test with speed and power
What do you have to say about the mezzer pro?
Great review! I just wondering if a 2020 lyrik is in the test where would it stand? Because I currently have one but thinking of going for ohlins in the future.
But the thought of lyrik upgrading it to have a vorsprung coil intrigues me too.
I hear nothing but love from every vorsprung zeb owner, they always claim way improved small bump sensitivity with a more supportive progressive curve. Both options intrigue me. I'll be getting a ride with a 2023 Lyric soon, I hope its good enough as is but I may upgrade to a 170 fork anyway
Did you have the EXT Tuned for you and your riding style..
New ohlins ttx22m.2 or new E-bike ext soria?
Thanks
I'm running fox 38 and ohlins ttx but now I'm wanting to try the ohlins fork but don't think it would be beneficial in my case 🤔 as I only ride light trails ....
I've been thinking about upgrading to the new rockshox. It's what i run now, but 2018 versions. Maybe a new bike. But like you said, i can't really tell the difference with small adjustments.
@Vital MTB please amend this video with a comparison of the new RS vs the Fox as well, please!
Oh boy, I really think you would love FORMULA fork! Super supple off the top and weird superior off camber/cornering bump absorption.
Either way, should test new Rockshox stuff. They seems to be KILLING, so much so Fox is suing them!
mine has a ridiculous narrow damping range and is way too stiff... worst fork I've ever ridden (Selva C).
@@likelight6495 yup selva c is terrible, now idea what they did with that fork. Selva R is better but still way off Lyrik, 38 and Mezzer. Tried every CTS valve, neopos etc. They arent good forks. Super noodly and mushy mid travel and harsh in the end of the travel on big hits.
@@TJ-gh6cg which fork is better ? Mezzer?
@@pjsanab for my 70kg I think Mezzer>Lyrik>38 from the ones I have ridden for long alpine enduro descending.
But Setup on Mezzer is difficult to get right. Easiest allround Package is Lyrik. Havent ridden Zeb.
Brian, I have this fork too and just found out that Ohlins installs a spacer in the negative spring from the factory that can be removed to improve the small bump performance. Just FYI
yes, but it's much easier to hit the bottom removing the spacer, the fork becomes soft throughout the travel, so you should compensate adding air in the positive chamber. It's not worth it. Ohlins is a racing product, so it's not necessarily "comfortable".
It should only affect the first part of the travel and I did increase the positive chamber pressure like you said. So without having to drop the pressure to get the small bump I want I gain more mid support as well. It’s a win win for me
Can you do the Push Industries suspension?
Agree with comments regarding the ERA...
Were you using the new EXT v2 fork?
Also was each fork/shock tuned for your weight/riding style from factory (or a technician?)
Says v2 at the start of the video. I have one and agree with the reviewers assessment
@@VelkePivo My bad. I have the EXT Storia V3 and am really enjoying it. But don't have much to compare to besides my old Rockshox Deluxe shock...
Interesting to hear various opinions on Ohlins vs Fox 38 fork (2023)
I’m still running a 2020 lyric that had the c2 spring , that fork was better than the 21 -22 model that changed the spring
Set up , haven’t tried the new rockshox stuff but by all reports it’s better again .
Öhlins is very high maintenance though. It requires service Like 4 times as often as fox
Hi Brian, I ran into you at Northstar yesterday. I've been running EXT front & rear on my GG, and think I've noticed the same things as you with the Fox & EXT (haven't run Ohlins yet). Whenever I run the Fox setups, they feel really supple but I struggle to get enough support in the middle and end of travel. On my EXT, it's kind of the opposite: I can get gobs of support but struggle to get comfort for runs longer than a few minutes. I've had my Era v2 retuned with the light compression tune and even when running both compressions wide open at Northstar, the amount of vibrations transmitted to the bars made it difficult to hold on doing top to bottom runs, especially later in the day. I had the bushings checked for tightness and they were ok, and I make sure the seals are freshly lubed before riding. I also notice that when riding on the moderate grades where it's sort of washboarded, I see the fork flex forward/rearward rather than up/down, so I think I'm noticing the same thing as you with initiating travel. I love that support of the triple air chamber, so maybe on my next bike I'll try Ohlins.
I left my Era now and gone for a 2023 Zeb Ultimate but my Era felt good when more damped on high speed suff like roots, rocks, brake bumps. With less damping it felt bad in that kind of stuff so I think you go about it wrong.
Never got that initial suppleness though and got tired hands from small stuff.
What pressure you running in the ERA ? They recommend you run the pressures from the weight category below the weight you are. For example I’m 90kg so I’m running the pressures meant for a 80kg riding and it’s the smoothest fork I’ve ever ridden especially when paired with the Storia v3 on the rear
@@ryansturgess9699 agreed. I dropped the pressure on both chambers way down & it was a huge improvement overall
I’ve found even 1psi makes a difference in these forks
Is the EXT fork the 1st series, or the v2 upgraded ?
V2
Did you change your mind and end up running the one up bars???
wouldn't you wanna try the 'cane creak helm mkII'
have you considered intend BCs suspention
Would have loved to see BOS in this test. (and perhaps cane creek too)
And Formula too
BOS has historically has poor serviceability and response to product in USA which is where product availability for this video is based. It may be a decent option for France and mayne other Euro zones. Most of industry here does little way of knowledge or offering of BOS. Do they even have a North American distributor?
@@erdawe66 their new stuff is much more accessible. Check out their website. As for how it rides…. I have no clue. Wish somebody did a review on it
Would have been interesting to add the Marzocchi Z1 coil to that to compare - as a more budget option.
He’s a racer, he isn’t looking for budget stuff 🤷🏼♂️
Interesting comparison. Considering how close you are, did you talk to Cane Creek? I know the Helm maxes out at 160mm travel for a 29er, but at least in my experience (I have two of them), it does seem like the base tune is oriented for a harder riding rider than a slow schmoe like me. I had to drop the fork pressure a lot (and add a spacer) to get the fork to feel comfortable. Eventually, I plan to add one of their rear shocks to my enduro bike (2019 Megatower V1). Bearing in mind, it is mainly my park bike, occasional trail bike and my racing days are in my past.
did you consider trying out the coil sprung fork from ohlins? i'd be curious how that would fit in the mix.
Would be super down to try a coil fork, just didn't have time to get one in the mix.
The New Fox Factory Float X2 has suffered with aeration and it's first service was done to fix this but it's due second service and it's doing the same, not impressed but the damping is very good and doesn't get as hot as the older version so will be sending back and this will have to be a warranty because I went through 5 shock bodies on my old version Fox DHX coil and they cracked in the same place on the body so Fox recommended the X2 but now this has started.
Just sent the DHX2 in for service again and aeration so parts renewed as had to wait for parts from Japan and they done it under warranty. Mounted the shock on needle bearings since last time and much better feel on slippy downhill trails. Forks working well now at 95psi just make sure the bypass grove on the air side is clean of grease 'slic honey'.
i wonder how that test would compare with the 36/35 versions of the forks. from my limited experience it feels like it might translate pretty closely but be a little less good basically (in exchange for lighter weight)
They would be less stiff however that would also mean that they would dampen more vibrations
@@huckssends7036 well you'd also get more bushing binding due to stantion flex.
@@dangandres good point but I think binding depends more on bushing tolerances .
pump the jam!!!
I’m running öhlins suspension on my specialized enduro but have the RXF 36 m.2 cause I’m just an average rider lol
What about DVO, Formula, Cane Creek?
But when do you race, and where ?
First of all: great music choice
But how come you didn't mention the sprindex?
Wanted to focus on the suspension, Sprindex is a great tool to get your spring rate right though
Zeb Ultimate and Super deluxe!
I'm getting a Z1 coil at some point this year, wondering how it compares to the 36/38 when it comes to support. Anyone out there ridden both?
You in Canada? I have a Z1 coil that was an unridden take off my Ripmo AF for sale, if you are looking to buy one.
Question: Has the öhlins more pop than the ext?
Sería bueno unos subtítulos en Español, saludos....
Curious if you could put a % on the difference in suppleness from RS/Fox to Ohlins. I am running an Ohlins TTX air 2 on the rear and I love that shock and was debating dropping my Lyrik for a Ohlins 36.
I would recommmend the ohlins 38 instead as the 36 air spring has smaller volume and has a lot more stiction than the 38.
1 word for the zeb, secus 🎉
Didn't mention anything about the ohlins shock? What's it different to the rockshox one?
Shame Rockshox still haven't returned to dual air. It's user friendly, no tools required to adjust the the fork, I think this was a silly move. I head one rep in a Rockshox booth say that it was to make set up easier. But actually it does the opposite. But I love how easy Ext makes the set up. Most brands don't use two chambers. I think that's an mistake.
Did you have multiple tunes from Ohlins to try during this testing? Also I am curious if varying levels of support offered by the brands was offered and could have factored into this decision at all? I.E. certain brands offering you free suspension while others were not willing to just give it to you. If so I think this should be disclosed in order to show whether there was true objectivity in this testing.
Y los subtitulado que macho!!!
Never tried ohlins or ext fork, but I have ridden both the 38 and zeb and the 38 feels like the stock tune is way more damp compared to any other forks ive ridden. Did not feel similar at all.. The zeb felt great for me cruising park laps, super smooth and active... the 38 really only feels better when youre blasting rough stuff. One thing that really makes the 38 feel like a pogo stick out the box is the ludicrous amount of grease on the negative air chamber seal from stock. Almost all 38s have this issue. Get that cleaned and the fork rides WAY different. Definitley a more race oriented fork.
Coming an auto racing background....when you use damping to hold up the suspension you get a lot more wear on the shocks damping internals. Make sure you have a lot of rebuild kits for your damping guts. Make sure your mechanic knows how to do fork rebuilds on the fly.