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Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S7E25: What You Leave Behind
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- čas přidán 22. 02. 2021
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I was waiting for a ferengi fleet to join the battle at the last minute - would have been nice.
Me too, I always picture Rom organizing a fleet with the Gorn, Microlight Alliance, Kitarians and Tholians
Ferengi don't fight, they negotiate. Quark himself has said this. So I expected no help from them.
I was looking for the Tamarians.
how much has sharing this show with you for two years meant to me?
well, Lore...
when my bear died, we were just starting that last arc of DS9...
(although we'd watched it together when it originally
aired...)
and the pain of missing him was so strong that I couldn't watch
ANY DS9 on my own...
and then I found you...
and you brought the show back to me by giving me someone to share it with...
and, in a way, you brought a little bit of my bear back to me too...
...
in other words,
it's meant ***everything*** to me...
...
thank you...
The finale hit hard for me as well. I remember that final zoom out from the window of the station with Kira and Jake looking out, thinking _"but wait, I don't want to leave..."_ This was the one Trek series I knew the least about when going into my first-time watch-through from start to finish, and I came out considering it the best one I'd seen by that point. After now having watched every Trek series, my position hasn't changed.
Edit: Rewatched the whole series with a friend for his first-time viewing. I had been recommending it profusely since we had previously gone through TOS and TNG. It was an enormously enjoyable and gratifying experience, not just because it's an excellent show, but also because he had many of the same reactions as I initially did, which somehow made me enjoy it all the more. Fantastic show with phenomenal characters, both main and secondary (especially Morn). That ending shot still hits hard. The most fun part about it is that now we've got so many in-jokes and remember so many great scenes, that I'm sure we'll be reminiscing about this series for a long time. As Captain Sisko said: "No matter what the future holds, no matter how far we travel, a part of us - a very important part - will always remain here, on Deep Space Nine."
So long to 'Pope Ratchet, the incompetent' she will be missed. Louis Fletcher did a good job playing her
Had I ever met Fletcher in real life, I would have hugged her to make up for all the times she made me want to punch Winn right in her smug face.
I hear you talking about how the Pah-wraiths are described as galactic threats and all I can think of is Admiral Hackett going over and over about how "We can't beat the reapers conventionally"
Walk with the Prophets, Lorerunner.
And nothing ever ends.
No one's ever really gone
Wait, wrong sci-fi
I'm gonna miss these ruminations. I'm really interested in how you'll rate ENT and TOS with your analysis mode (particularly ENT cos it's really surprised me how much I enjoyed it the last two times) but I have a special connection to DS9 and TNG. They were what got me in to Trek.
I hope he does Stargate.
This is my first ever CZcams comment. I started watching your DS9 Ruminations in March last year when the UK went into lockdown. This series was with me all that time as I binged it until I was current and have looked forward to each new episode. Thank you!
You're not alone in tearing up with this episode....
i clicked like without even watching lol
most emotional star trek ending
I pictured the Breen as a second-rate alpha quadrant power who, much like the Cardassians, were so entranced with the idea of the Dominion elevating them to a first-rate power and all the riches that would come with that, that they were willing to take the risk of an alliance with the Dominion which could backfire horribly. Indeed, perhaps the Dominion saw how easily they fooled the Cardassians that they sought out another ally with a very similar situation.
Best trek series there’re ever was.and will be. It’s just the best one. Period.
When i was younger TNG and TOS were on top but after watching DS9 during a bad time in my life it quickly became my favorite.
Usually I don't comment on CZcams but I will for this one. I cried while I watched this rumination. I discovered you shortly before you started to do DS9 and TNG and now this era on your channel comes to an end and I am excited about the new stuff coming soon.
I have to thank you for this Lore, watching your ruminations felt like discovering Star Trek for the first time again. These videos will be in my heart forever. Thank you. A thousand times thank you.
Wow. I got a bit emotional during that one too. Especially at the end there. Deep Space Nine has stayed with me. I think about that station and it’s crew. I’ve enjoyed watching your reviews and how passionate you are about Trek. To your upcoming series ! Thank you.
Ive been watching the ds9 and tng ruminations from the beginning when the first episode aired. Ive long considered DS9 my favorite TV show and this rumination series began during a very emotional and very painful period in my life which I still struggle with daily (at least i am improving). For a long long time, and even still some nights, I could not sleep at all. Maybe an hour or two a night with the chronic insomnia, and nearly every night for the past few years ive put on these videos whenever I go to bed, often just letting the playlist run through the night. They distract me from the painful intrusive thoughts and the panic attacks and they generally put me in a better place and allow me to fall asleep. It's so nice to have something to listen to when i wake up in the night. I cant even say how many times ive listened to these videos in the past few years. These and the rest of this channel. I owe you many thanks for getting me through a lot of seemingly unbearable nights. I cant even begin to explain all that this channel has done for me in the past few years. Even just being introduced to Babylon 5 because of this channel has been a big deal for me.
I suppose this all sounds rather silly but i have 0 friends who are even remotely interested in star trek (and most things im super into) thus ive never been able to experience discussions of this sort about the episodes. Star trek has generally been something i enjoy by myself alone. it's been really cool and i think has given me an even greater appreciation of the shows watching them with this commentary.
I always look forward to the new episodes each week and it's really quite sad to see it end but I am very much looking forward to the Enterprise and TOS ruminations.
The favourite show you know I've watch every episode just before corresponding video and like you I'm crying
Did anyone else realize the flute (or some woodwind, my wife was the Band Weenie, not me) part playing when O'Brien found Travis was the line from "The Minstrel Boy" that he sang with Captain Maxwell in the TNG episode "The Wounded" when they were reminiscing?
Last thing, Worf becoming Klingon ambassador to the federation is the same position his "mate" the mother of Alexander had.
I thought that was a very nice touch.
I normally click on these right when I see them on Tuesday mornings. This one I waited because I knew I had to go in somewhat prepared. It is now Saturday night, technically Sunday morning and I was not prepared enough. Deep Space Nine is not just my favorite Star Trek but one of my favorite television shows in general. Thank you Lore for going through all of these episodes and all of the work you have put into these videos.
What an incredible send off. Still one of those episodes that I can’t help but tear up over. I’m really looking forward to you covering Enterprise.
You’ve talked about Star Trek Online quite a bit throughout this series, would love to see a rumination series into the different story threads/seasons on STO.
Have you read the DS9 Re-Launch novels? Excellent. Start with "A Stitch in Time" written by Andrew Robinson who played Garak. Then "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" which tells about Rugal, the Cardassian boy who bit Garak (It's great, Garak helps him with a serious problem in the end.) They're a LOT of fun.
The fact that they didn't have jadzia in the Montage at the end really bothered me
Fuck Rick Berman, he's the one to blame for that mess through and through.
Man. This analysis series has been going on since my sophomore year of high school to just a few months off of my sophomore year of college. I’m a little sad to see it go.
It`s so wonderful that Star Trek ugly duckling had a most beautiful and compelling ending of them all.
Summary: The Federation Alliance prepares a final invasion of Cardassia. Meanwhile on Bajor, Kai Winn releases the Pah-wraiths from the Fire Caves which threatens the safety of not only Bajor, but the entire Alpha Quadrant. (Series finale, although the end of Sisko's storyline is a bit off, It's a beautiful episode.)
This has been a part of my weekly routine for a few years now...
'DS9 is ending. DS9 always ends.' Just a little something I repeat to myself whenever I get the bittersweet feeling from watching the series finale.
It's been a pleasure and a joy tuning in to your weekly broadcasts Lore. None of my close friends or family members are DS9 fans, so good discussions about the series are to hard to come by for me. These uploads have filled that gap for me. Looking forward to your next series dives. 🖖
Thank you for this journey, man! It does mean a lot. This helped me once more to get a deeper understanding of the art of television.
But not only that. It also helped me through just another rough patch of my life! And also this helps me to firmly establish that Star Trek, where ever I might end up on my personal journey will remain my home. And thanks to this ruminations I learned to better understand why, and appreciate it on an even deeper emotional level!
Thank you Lorerunner! It's been a hell of a ride!
Voyager and DS9 complete. Your professionalism and dedication is much appreciated.
You should do the documentary "What We Left Behind"
And some Star Trek videos games other than STO...
How did you like it?
I'm so glad I got to take this journey with you Archengaia. It still feels like just yesterday I was so excited to move on from voyager and babylon 5 to tackle my favorite show of DS9. And you really did it justice, thanks so much for all your hard work!
Looking forward to what's next :)
As the Defiant didn't have a letter after it's name (despite not being the first ship with that name) the new Defiant should have been Defiant-A not B. Same as happened with the Enterprise NCC 1701 no bloody A, B, C, or D
Original Defiant NX-74205, a prototype. New Defiant NCC-75633 a ship in the line of battle. No letter added because it is not the same registration, so no distinguisher required. Same reason Enterprise is a NX ship not to be confused with the NCC Enterprise.
I have watched "What You Leave Behind" episode a dozen times and always tear up.
DS9 changed me. I first watched it during a very bad time in my life, involving an abusive marriage which I have since left. The screenplay of episodes like "In The Pale Moonlight" meant a lot to me because of how much I had to do things I really didn't want to and would even hate myself for doing in order to get through the ordeal. As it happens, one of them was planning to watch Enterprise with my ex and saying that knowing that at some point, perhaps before we even started, I wouldn't be there anymore.
I know I found your channel rather late in this run but I have enjoyed your work immensely and I look forward to what comes next.
DS9 was the first Star Trek which i have seen from the very beginning to the end (a friend had all the DVDs), i have seen it over a period of 8 months, at the time i was studying in the university and it was the hardest year of my studies (the most difficult exams) and watching DS9 was the treat i gave to myself after a long day of study.
Also during that time i was changing many things and aspect of myself and my life. I will always relate DS9 to that period of my life, with all the many good emotions i had.
When i have seen the finale the first time i cried a little and still i think it's one of the best finale in the TV history (together with BSG of Ronald Moore).
So i totally feel you Lore, and i really enjoyed watching your ruminations. I discovered your channel for a DS9 episode rumination (Nor the battle to the strong).
Thank you
"Picard hasn't started yet"
... Wow. You DO record these in advance. A long time.
He mentioned when he was recording in an episode a while back (near the beginning of the year, I want to say). It was around 14 months
@@Brandyalla The really sad part is that as horrible as Picard was, it's already had its start, run, and miserable finish. Unfortunately, just like the equally miserable "Discovery" I'm going to guess they'll continue to push out absolute trash in order to milk a once-great franchise of all its honor and goodness in order to A) Make a buck and/or B) destroy the franchise. I've no idea who they got to plan out Picard and Discovery, but it's clear they hate both ST and humanity.
@@random_eskimo_in_the_rockies I've always been a believer that Star Trek reflects the time it was made. TOS reflected the optimistic 60's TNG the Reaganomic/Technocratic 80's, DS9 post 911 pessimism.
Picard and Discovery are current reflections. In my opinion the last 2 decades, we've seen that "The night is dark and full of terrors." and "All are heroes have lived long enough to become the villains". In the last year we have had riots, a pandemic and a possible insurrection. How can anyone possibly write happy Trek?
@@RealLordFuture Back to the roots. Hopefulness for a better future after the dark night.
The most beautiful thing about DS9 is that it gets better every time I watch it. It shows that television can do significant literature. You magnificent analysis has meant an enormous amount to me. It’s helped me love this show even more. A galaxy of thanks! 🌟🌹
Can’t wait for TOS and ENT.
This is really a touching ending...but I am equally as sad that your ruminations of this series is over. There are many things that I just overlooked during watching that you have mentioned, which ultimately brought me to other questions.
I will continue to cycle through them as long as you have them up on your channel because now I am used to hearing your voice while going to sleep. You made Trek even more rich for me because I was a casual viewer up until the last 5 years or so when I got absolutely invested in this. You talk about your Mom watching Trek with you and it really means a lot to me because my Mom passed away in 2020 and she is the one who introduced me to Trek and TNG was one of the first shows I remember watching with her.
I am looking forward to hearing ENT because I did enjoy that series as well.
Sisko leaving was kind of difficult to me to accept...I had a somewhat very empty feeling. I think he would come back but probably not in anyone's lifetime that would be alive when he left. Time passing would just happen in a heartbeat and he may not even notice how much so. Which sounds cliché but not unreasonable. Perhaps there will be a critical time for his physical form to return but he can visit his family like how the Prophets spoke to him throughout the show.
That was quite the journey Lore, well done for completing this endeavour.
I just finished watching this show for the first time and came here to talk about the Pah-wraith storyline so I’m glad you went into detail about your annoyances. I’m really disappointed that we didn’t learn more about why they were kicked out of the wormhole and what conflict was there. That piece makes it less just good vs evil and more interesting because each side has their different motivations but that was never fully addressed or explained!
So I spent all day trying to figure out how to fix the Dukat/Winn thing. I ended up also fixing Kira and Odo in the process.
It really goes back to when Winn lost the First Minister election to Shakaar (or she never actually ran, they never explicitly say).
You can fix the Kira/Shakaar thing by having Kira realize soon after she starts dating him that they're just not compatible, maybe he's a bit of a narcissist, whatever you want to insert there. Make Kira start looking at Odo a little differently after that, have her like him. Then they could have had them both like each other but be afraid to talk about it. Much more interesting than what actually happened.
Getting back to Winn, she starts losing power little by little, starts feeling like the Vedeks are ignoring her (because she's an awful woman) and acknowledging Sisko basically in place of her. Winn naturally finds herself drawn to someone who turns out to be a Pah Wraith worshipper. Of course she flies off the handle and banishes *random bajoran guy I just made up*, but she feels broken up about it after because he wasn't a horrible person. Then you totally change the episode Covanent and have Kai Winn get transported, maybe alongside Kira. Kira and Winn conspire to leave together. Now Winn is even more conflicted and even closer to the dark side. Then you could basically have the rest of it play out as it was but now Winn is already a Pah Wraith worshipper when Dukat shows up. Basically just have Winn let Dukat believe he's fooled her, but she's got all the power over the situation. I'm not quite sure how to set it up, but imagine Dukat ends up working with Sisko to stop Winn. Dukat sacrifices his life and Sisko is still learning from the prophets but he's gonna be back in a couple years or something.
Beautiful ending, Lore. This is the first time I've been with you at the end of a series. I watched both Voyager and Babylon 5 Ruminations after they had been completed. Live long and prosper.
I discovered your channel March 2020, durring the pandemic and your ruminations keeps me company while I work from home and will keep me company for the 2021 for sure. Looking forward for ENT and TOS ruminations.
As for DS9... I'm never gonna leave it behind. I've rewatched it two times this year (after 15 years). And it still grows on me. Is still relevant, still powerful, still the best fight scenes (we need that damn HD), still heartbreaking, still the best cast ( *with the best front man* , I'll die on that) of all ST series, still I'm angry that did'nt let Sisko say goodbye to Jake and still that god dammed last scene makes me cry like a baby.
Knowing the Dominion I wouldn't be surprised if they would keep sacrificing ships to test if the wormhole was safe to traverse.
Can't believe we're already at the end of this series. Really enjoyed listening to these thank you so much!
Edited to add that your ending made me tear up as well.
Loved this series, hope you do Enterprise as well. I grew up with Trek, was born two months before TOS began, and watched reruns in the 70's, saw all the films (except V) in theaters, recorded TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise on VHS. Have never stopped watching them since. In the 1990's, I was one of those writing spec scripts for TNG and later DS9 that Lore has discussed before. I had found out about their spec program thru addresses in the TNG Tech Manual and actually called Lolita Fatjo, who was script supervisor on both at the time. She was delightful and very helpful, gave me tips on format, etc. I found out that DS9 was cancelled from her, while we were discussing a script that she was told they were going to buy. She was so kind and encouraging and suggested I send in more for VOY, but I had a life-threatening illness arise, so never got to continue, as that spec script policy didn't continue. Lore's ruminations are spot on, in my opinion and have shown me many things I didn't catch , even after all those years, so kudos, to you, sir and keep up the good work!
I have to say, I am new to this channel. I only found it a few weeks ago, but I have been binging the Ruminations. I love listening to your thoughts and following this series has been wonderful. DS9 has been my favorite Star Trek since I first watched it and I doubt that will change for a long, long time. I don't know if I will ever make it to any of your livestreams, but maybe one day I'll be able to attend. Until then Lore, Peace and long life.
Thanks for the heartfelt journey, Lorerunner! God bless you always!
I'm tearing up watching this! What You Leave Behind always brought on the waterworks and so did this rumination. Thank you so much for all you did with this series! You may not realize it, or you may not hear it enough, but for so many Tuesday mornings make people smile as we look forward to the DS9 rumination! ::CLAPS::
Looking forward to the wrap-up of TNG, covering TOS and ENT, and going through VOY again! Take care!
I think that the way that peace was made with the Dominion really works. Their main flaw throughout the show was their unwillingness to compromise, and belief that only conquest will bring them safety, but in the end, pursuing peace is what saved their lives.
And while the Federation did poison them in the first place, I think that, unlike the Cardasians, the Founders knew that the Federation wouldn't have done that unless provoked, which put the act in a different light (I don't see them as vengeful, just pragmatic).
This is why I think this episode is the best representation of the spirit of Star Trek, it doesn't just show why peace and cooperation are morally good, it shows why they're pragmatically good too, even to beings as immoral as the Founders.
I really took some time getting to watch this series through, after watching Voyager and TNG, partly because it was hard to find secondhand DVDs of it, and now I know why - it is such a keeper of a series. Would that all such series remain forever in our hearts. The blessing of it is that the more things in the world change, the more it matters that we watch these characters, the same as ever.
Endgame was very flawed but wasn't THAT bad. I still found it entertaining, even if many plot details were dumb, convoluted, or had bad implications for the future.
This was a fantastic episode. The Pah-Wraith stuff pulls it down a little but overall it's still great and my favorite. And the long leadup to end the series was just what it needed.
Thank you Lorerunner! Tearing up along with you
This was really, really beautiful. I think Deep Space Nine mattered, even for your videos in and of themselves.
Lore, congratulations on finishing the DS9 series. I've been listening since your rumination of "Little Green Men" and every tuesday morning on my way to work since then, I would listen to your new episode. And now I don't know what to do with my Tuesday mornings lol
This series, along with your ruminations of TNG, have taught me so much about storytelling, good writing, tv production, acting, what to look for in a work, what is considered good and what is considered bad writing, what it means to be human, so many varying perspectives when it comes to ethics and morality, and I believe I've become a better person listening to your ruminations.
So I just wanna say thank you so much. This has been a wonderful experience and I cannot wait to see what you do next. Much love.
You are a massive part of my life man. Grateful to have you in it.
To those who haven't read the DS9 Re-Launch books - PLEASE do so. Andrew Robinson's EXCELLENT book "A Stitch in Time" tells Garak's story from when he's a boy. (And we learn about his feud with both Tain and Dukat.) Rugal, the Cardassian boy taken from his Bajoran adoptive parents has a story in which we really learn a lot about Cardassian society. Opaka returns, Sisko returns, Bashir fights, and eventually joins Section 31, it's all superb.
Thank you lorerunner. I watched every episode just to watch your commentary. Sigh - what a journey
Lore, thanks for taking us along on this journey with you. I've really enjoyed rewatching these episodes but, most of all, getting an opportunity to hear your thoughts which are always insightful and thoughtful. Just wanted you to know how much you are appreciated.
It's been a hell of a ride Lore, thank you so much for doing this. I loved your reaction at the end of the clip. It's everything it should be and everything you felt I felt along with you. Looking forward to TOS and ENT
It's been emotional but as long as Star Trek Ruminations continue, I will be here.
Is it just me, or is the dialogue in this episode just some of the best written in Star Trek? So much quotable lines like "finally an ambassador who will go Targ hunting with me!" I love Worf's expression when he says it. I like all the quotes you mentioned as well.
I always wondered if the Founders were all as evil as the "Female Shapeshifter"? Was a lot that was done because she was in sole command when they usually are grouped and probably make decisions as a group almost always? Or is the rest as stupid as her? Damn she definitely is reason number 1 The Dominion lost. She's a terrible leader. The Founders usually don't have to motivate people, they usually just have to command people and it's done without question
Sometimes I wish there was something more meaningful than a like that I could place on a video. This video would get that. Godspeed, Lore. And onward to TOS and ENT.
Star Trek Continues did an admirable job of bringing the original series an ending that it deserved. The full series is here on CZcams, if I'm not mistaken.
Yes it is an excellent ending and connects the end of TOS to the refit prior to TOM. I feel that it is comparable to the high end of Trek writing for TOS era. Of course it is written nearly 50 years after TOS as it is fan fiction, but it is still head and shoulders above Discovery.
Yours were definitely not the only tears, and that's okay. My one and only printed, published poem went:
'When tears of joy begin to flow, they help your gladness grow,
When tears of pain you cannot stay, they help to wash the pain away.'
And someone much greater than I said: "I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil."
I thought for sure Sisko was coming back. He left his baseball.
I like to think the final shot is an homage. DS9, the station that brought war and then peace. All alone in the night.
Sisko used Sisko Punch!
It’s super ineffective!
A great finale to a great show.
Something I wondered about the female changling. Way back ages ago, Sisko sealed the wormhole and convinced the prophets to wipe out a Dominion fleet.
Prior to that there were maybe four Founders in the Alpha Quadrant. We know at least one of those (in the form of Martok) was killed.
What I wonder is, how many of the others were killed?
I get the feeling that the female changling - a Founder who is used to being part of the Great Link - was pretty much the only Founder in the Alpha quadrant for maybe two or three years. Completely alone and cut off from her people.
It would explain her desperation to get Odo on her side. It would also explain her increasing irrationality during the last two seasons. She makes weird decisions because she's alone and can't commune with the rest of the Founders. There's no one else. No Great Link. Plus struck with a disease that prevented her from shape-shifting: from being the very thing the Founders pride themselves on being.
I wonder if she was going insane, just a little bit.
Also at the end, from the Founders' point of view, Odo is the jelly space jesus. Change my mind.
Man as you were talking about a face to the fleet I was thinking about Evek. Then you said it and I decided i can never come up with anything first...lol
I would of liked to seen Tomalak or Toreth commanding the Romulan fleet.
Nicely done.👍 A great series.
Also, I started watching your show because of this Rumination series, so much love ❤️Very excited for ENT and TOS.
The Animated Series provides a reasonable finale to TOS. "The Counter Clock Incident" features the 'return' of original Enterprise captain Robert April getting to command his beloved ship one more time. I can believe in it as a last tour of the Constitution Class Enterprise's original captain before she returns to spacedock for her refit. Suitably celebratory.
But the conversation is moot. Because TOS's finale is Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, our heroes retiring having saved Khitomer and arguably ushered in the beginnings of peace with the Klingons. Perfect finale for that crew.
"Turnabout Intruder"? Never heard of it, isn't that just the final episode of Season 3? It sure isn't the 'finale', wink wink. 😉
Thank you.
I looked forward to your ruminations every week for the past two years.
This has been a ride Lore, thank you
You did it, Lore! What a beautiful finale. Thank you so, so much for this series. Your ruminations truly mean the world to me, and they've actually helped introduce me to Star Trek! I'm excited to see the ending to TNG, and to hear your thoughts on TOS and Enterprise as well! LLAP 🖖
Only joined the crowd and found the channel in time for the end of ds9. Well, at least I've got several other seasons to watch back through!
Hi! New fan of your work here, just popping in because this may be my last chance to do so while you’re focused on DS9. I just want to say thank you for what you do. I learned of your channel when my girlfriend started watching your Dragon Age stuff and eventually looked into what else you cover. Holy crap it’s a lot! Anyway as a huge Trek fan and even bigger DS9 fan I decided to dive into your DS9 ruminations. Currently in the second season. I’m finding every minute of it to be well worth my time.
I don't think the Pah-Wraiths were supposed to be the "final boss" for the whole series, but the "final boss" for Sisko's own personal character arc as emissary of the prophets. I interpreted it more like a quasi-epilogue, like the Scourging of the Shire at the end of Lord of the Rings, where the "minor" bad guy Saruman comes back as one last obstacle to overcome when the hobbits return home. We all know the "real" big bad of the series was the Dominion, that the Pah-Wraiths aren't nearly as powerful as they boast and posture, and I really think the "final battle" with Dukat was meant as more of a Sarumanesque "loose end villain" than the actual big bad.
Kira is far and away my favorite character in DS9, and so this ending was always a real gut punch. Kira has been losing people constantly for her entire life, lost her best friend at the end of the last season, and here loses her Captain/only-trusted-religious-leader/friend, her love, and several of her other friends leave. She is largely alone. It always struck me that despite being a good person, and becoming demonstrably a better person throughout the series, Kira ends the series maybe more alone than she started. I always imagined that from this point forward she is essentially married to her job, whether that's as a military leader or a religious one. Much like Picard actually, but unlike Picard, she didn't choose that life. At every turn, Kira chooses to connect to people, and life keeps ripping those people away from her. The series end with her and Jake, who are both alone together. It's really a tragedy.
Kai Winn deserved a better send off. Her and Dukat deserved a less stupid and pathetic send off. Sisko's end is... annoying? I don't know. It never clicked for me.
I loved the Dominion War stuff. It reaches it's most WW2 reminiscent here. Closing in on Berlin (Cardassia), genocide, the evil enemies shooting themselves in the foot, surrender, walking into the concentration camps (the Sisko/Martok/Ross ruins scene). The Odo scene always made sense to me, and for the reasons you described. Kira and the female changeling both trust Odo, and so the war ends. And the Cardassians flipping at the last moment also makes an insane amount of sense.
Some more miscellaneous thoughts on the war. I do wonder what happened to the Breen afterwards. I wish they hadn't killed Damar. It would've been interesting to see how he performed as a political leader. The Cardassian genocide also, at least visually, reminds me a lot of the end of the Belkan War in Ace Combat.
DS9 is awesome, but so were these Ruminations Lore. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I'm totally with you on the "forever" thing.
I wasn't ready for these ruminations to be over......
Two Star Trek series fully ruminated now, with the third coming soon. Congratulations Lore! Looking forward to seeing you continue onward.
And yes it means a lot to me. I look forward to seeing you and listening to you talk about some of my favorite series that I enjoyed growing up with. (And yes, I watched them when they came out with my mom, as well.)
Thank you for your DS9 and TNG ruminations. This was a great way for me to revisit and enjoy the series again!
Lore, I've been with you on the DS9 series from day one. I greatly appreciate your work, and am looking forward to TOS and Enterprise. DS9 will always be something that I love, and you helped add even more depth and meaning to the series. Live long and prosper. \v/
No you're not being too harsh, Lore (and yes i write this just as you said that part). The Pah Wraiths... i wanted them to be good, i really did. But going back to it now, it's always something that was segregated from the meat of the plot. There was never a real meeting point between the Prophets story and the Dominion story (and that's a damn shame) - they brushed against each other now and then, sure, but those were cameos and Deus-Ex Machinae more than anything. And it sucks, because they were an interesting storyline too, but they did so woefully little with it that i was left to wonder what was it all for except for killing off characters i cared about, and that's not a positive.
One point about the threat the Pah-wraiths represent, though; the Prophets do have the power to create and sustain a stable wormhole - the only of it's kind in the known galaxy - that links quadrants Alpha and Gamma, as well as different points across TIME. That feat is... well, pretty much beyond comprehension. The notion that they would have power to cause destruction on a galactic scale is not all that farfetched, in my view (Universe though, that seems like a tall order). As for them being evil, i get the point and it is pretty weak, but i will add that we ourselves will do completely irrational things out of emotion. Let alone beings that have been trapped in some dimensional prison for eons untold. Not defending it, just trying to put in a little context.
On a side note, i will give a shoutout to STO with how they integrated the Mirror Universe and Admiral Leeta with the Kosst Amojan. That was probably more interesting than what this finale gave us on the potential alone, even if the execution was rather minimal. And i agree on Winn, she was full on wasted. Again, it was one of the few glaring failures of this Saga to not have been able to bring those two plots together.
What i think of Sisko's ending and possible return? I honestly don't have an opinion, the whole thing felt so tacked on and disjointed that my brain just shut down on that part. What i think is maybe yes, maybe no. It's all up to what the writers want to write. Sorry to give such a dry response, but that's how that whole affair left me.
What i think happened in the Link between Odo and the Founder was they connected their 'neurons', saw each other's point of view and agreed on a common ground. I don't think there's a more complicated answer there. It's Martok that i find interesting, especially in light of what Worf said a few seasons earlier: Klingons are born to fight. That's where they find their purpose, their joy. Now Martok is a great warrior, but he isn't isn't a warmongering fool. We won't make an enemy out of a friend just so he can revel in glorious battle, so a really worthy fight for him will only come once in a blue moon, now that the Empires and Starfleet are united. And here he was able to fight and win one of the most massive, important and daunting fights in the history of the Galaxy, and he gets to live to drink to that victory. His name will be in song long after his passing, there is no doubt about it. And i say good on him, he deserves it.
Of course, there is also the saying that for the good solider, there is no victory. There is only what you lost, what you failed to protect, all the lives that aren't alive anymore and how much of that could have been prevented. And that's Ross and Sisko. I don't think any side is any less of a warrior because of that rift, it's just a difference in perspective. And a reminder that Humans have to beat into themselves something that Klingons are born into from the start.
Jadzia's absence... ugh. Why.
I don't much like to think of myself as someone who says pretty words for emotional effect or to sound poetic. Not that i myself am immune to those words when said by others, it's just never been me. I have to make an exception here though. Before i (re)started watching DS9 as an adult, it was a vague memory in the back of my head as a kid. I remembered bits and pieces, mostly from Season 1. I had some points of frustration with this show, but here and now, after this Rumination and you just said what you said, i have to agree. DS9 is one of those things that will most likely never leave me. It's special. And i think it always will be.
See you on Twitch.
And so ends another Great LoreRun series! Very well done!
They should have picked the Pah Wraith as the source of "The Burn" in an upcoming series. Maybe that would have worked better... :-)
And yes, this one is never gonna leave any of us... ever.
The DS9 ending is the only Trek TV finale where I actually tear up. We never see any of the DS9 cast (not counting Worf) onscreen again.
Thank you for doing these, and TNG, and Bab5, and VOY... I got into DS9 only maybe within the last 5 years? Due to netflix but I loved all of it and it's saddening we haven't gotten another trek like it yet
thank you so much for all your hard work, Lore. It really matters to me.
DS9 show is important to me to, due to some personal things. Thank you for Ruminations, Lore.
I really, don't hate you lore. Thanks for everything ❤️
I always thought the Cardassian housekeeper who took the resistance in and dies in this episode was Mr Garik's mother and that is why he is so angry.
I'm not so sure the pah wraiths aren't a potential threat to the galaxy. They pulled it off fairly well in a particular novel series that went in that direction
loved these videos, thank you
Kira and Jadzia did WARP jump inside Bajor system with tactical purpose.
So I dont know how to feel about the Finale in total. It came really odd to me that Odo, would A) go back to heal the Founders and leave Kira for that despite the female changeling being able to do that too an B) Odo knows why, when and who manufactured the virus and infected the Founders. And in the Great Link the Founders would be able the receive that information from Odo, either over time, or willingly or by force. Which would again strengthen the Founders will to get rid of the Solids (or at least all humans). It doesnt make sense and no character nor the plot itself just ignore that... it baffeld me.
thank god for enterprise and TOS i dont know what i would do if i didn't have these to listen to every monday and tuesday affternoon
Been watching since the start of DS9 hellon here and on tv
I love it when Lore cries
If you consider Undiscovered Country as the real ending of TOS then it is on the same level as TNG and DS9!
That would make Nemesis the last episode of TNG and no one wants that :-)
There was a episode of Boston Legal where Odo and Quark reunite.
This end is basically the nightmare episode of his son where he loses his father in an accident. Now he faces exactly the same problem. The same scenario. And we know from that episode how it turned out for is poor son. Congratulation!