Hookless Rims Explained | Which Bike Tyres Can You Use & Why?
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 2. 06. 2024
- Hookless rims are relatively new pieces of cycling tech that are changing the way in which bike wheels are manufactured, allowing for lighter and stronger construction compared to the conventional hooked rim. But there are still a few misconceptions about their safety and which tyres you can use with them, so Si explains all with some help from our partners at Zipp and Pirelli.
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Do you use hookless rims on your bike currently? Do you have any further questions about them?
I use tubeless but I don't even know if the rims are hookless lol
I will be in April ordered a 2021 Giant Tcr advanced Pro 0 which has em. Thanks for the info Si and GCN
I have a pair of 9th wave hookless rims on my bike
Yes, I do. No, I don't. đ
No, when I got my current bike they were only on the uber super bikes at the time. I just want to know what the market share is at the moment. I don't like buying things that have parts/pieces that are trending out of fashion, as in my experience, that makes things harder to fix a few years later.
i purchased a very expensive set of carbon hookless rims at my local bike shop. They sold me some nice, expensive tires to put on them. After a full weekend of wrestling with it, the tires would not seat or seal. Turns out the tires weren't compatible with the rims. So we checked with the wheel manufacturer.. they basically said, 'we only tested it with ONE specific tire MODEL, and only in one specific size, and only at a very specific pressure at that. So, we tried that tire (not a tire or brand I was fond of mind you), and still had a terrible time getting it over the edge of the rim, even using metal tire levers (after snapping several plastic/nylon levers). These wheels were specifically intended to use on a gravel bike. I live in an area where it is often cold and wet and dark, and almost all of the best gravel riding is in areas with little or no mobile phone coverage. Then we asked if they supported running tubes in these tires.. the answer was a firm NO. Which means no emergency tube/boot install.
I sent an email to the manufacturer asking them how I could get possibly service this tire in the field - i.e. on the side of a gravel road or trail, potentially in cold/wet/freezing weather, and outside of mobile phone service area. They had no answer. My comment was a very pointed request for a refund, which they granted. The shop doesn't sell that particular brand of wheel any more - at least they didn't last time I was there.
Keep these simple thoughts in mind when considering spending money on hookless rims. What tires are you going to run, and at what size and pressure? Are those tires compatible? (ask the wheel company and the tire company - you'll probably get VERY different answers from both). Are you willing to limit your tire choices to those that are compatible? What happens if you cut a sidewall, or have some problem that requires you boot the tire and put a tube in? Bottom line, what benefit are you getting from hookless rims that make it worth dealing with all of this hassle?
I'm back to hooked rims and safe tires that can support a wide variety of sizes and tread options, and have the options of running tubes. I'll be there for a while.
For those that opt to go with hookless rims, best of luck to you.
Wow!!! THink I'll wait a year or so till they are more common & have been tested by more people.
Great post. *I'd REALLY like to see Si Richardson's response to this* (probably far more common problem than he implied in this _sponsored_ emphatically optimistic infomercial. He did say he'd be reading such posts with interest....
@@georgehugh3455 He posted this video because Zipp and or Pirelli paid him to (and I'm ok with this). I only put this comment here so people pondering hookless rims are aware of the issues I had. Si even mentioned some of these concerns in his video, although he didn't specifically say they are no longer issues, only that standards have finally been put in place, so that, hopefully, going forward, wheel and tire manufacturers can get the tolerances sorted out. As it stands now, at least with the particular wheelset I purchased, the 'standards' were definitely not sorted out. I'm sure the wheelset works fine in a general sense. I was just not willing to take the risk of cutting a tire out on a remote trail somewhere and have no way to get home. The whole 'DON'T USE TUBES - THEY MAY BLOW THE TIRE OFF' thing is a *big* problem for anyone who doesn't have a team van following them around for wheel swaps. Just do your homework/research. Make sure the wheelset you are considering will run the tires you want to run at the pressures you want to run, and that you are comfortable with your ability to get home if something goes wrong out on the road/trail.
@@jimhansen5395 There are people always trying to make a better wheel since the Stone Age. Technology and patents today can make a good designer much money but there are also trade offs as in your case.
I love technology myself but most time tried and true will always get you there, and back.
@@georgehugh3455 On Twitter, Si said that the situation that Jim described absolutely cannot happen, because tires and rims follow a standard, and so one tire cannot be more difficult than another. But we know it does happen, in spite of standards.
so good to see Si hosting this GCN tech
It's been a while since he's been in the workshop...
@@gcntech since previous Zipp ad?
Me too. Getting sick of Ollie lately
@@lookpro.rideslow i thought im the only one. it always feels to me that ollie is very fake and has limited knowledge
@@pskonejott2568 his âcharmâ has worn out on me very quickly. I roll my eyes when I see a thumbnail with his face now.
Weâve been talking to Zipp and Pirelli to get completely independent and unbiased answers đ
I think that's better than talking to you. đ
@@johnpaullaxa5486 oooh better call a burn ward
Exactly which part of that video could be subject to biased answers from Zipp and Pirelli? Please enlightened me.
@@Dee-Ell Giant specifically state that Pirelli tyres are not compatible with their hookless rims. I have no idea if this is correct or not, but that would make me question the compatibility claims in the video.
yeah that made me lol. Let alone they paid for this video
SI is just BRILLIANT - His explanations seamless.
Kudos !!
Really appreciate him !
*hookless ;-)
Definitely one of the most informative videos from GCN Tech. Answered questions I didn't know I had. Thanks!
Always love the deep dive into bike tech nerdery. Thanks, GCN.
Such a good explanation. I'm hooked.
On a ride today with my friends and one had a flat. He was riding his new Orbea (beautiful bike) . Imagine our consternation when we tried to take the tire off the rim only to find it was stuck, almost like it was manufactured in one piece. The tire was fully deflated but we could not get the tire bead to come free of the rim edge. We, 4 men, worked on this for 30 minutes before resorting to youtube and finally a call out to bike mechanic friend who told us it was a new "hookless rim" and we needed to basically "man up" and force the tire to break seal with the rim edge. Another 30 minutes with the strongest among us finally using a two hand twisting motion on the tire perpendicular to the diameter of the rim and the bead finally moved to the center of the wheel, where we could get a tire lever under it and fairly easily hook it over the wheel. On closer examination a "hookless" rim has two shoulders around the outside edge of the wheel where the bead of the tire when mounted is stretched so tight by the extra height that it makes a almost unbreakable seal. This is an incredibly hard thing to deal with on the road, and that is putting it mildly! So why would anyone create such a difficult to deal with wheel system??
One final detail, while a new bike and wide rims, think they must have measured 25mm width internal, maybe?, due to shortages the bike shop put on 25mm wide tires, was this the reason we had such problems, would a 28 or 30 have been a different experience?
My buddy is ready to shop for new rims, any feedback would be appreciated!
This was very helpful info. Thanks for posting it. I've seen the same comment from several others here. It's enough to keep me from buying hookless wheels. Repairing flats mid-ride is enough of a headache as it is; no need to make it harder.
I've done mine at home a couple times now (thanks to tubeless I didn't need to swap tubes mid ride).
While it is harder to get them to unseat, I definitely didn't have that much issue with them. Am running the 2022 Propel with Giant SLR1 wheels.
Definitely need a lever to get the bead over the rim, but found it comparable to non-tubepess once I'd done that.
@@morosis82 I had the opposite experience this week taking the default tyres off a 2022 TCR with the SLR1 wheels. The tyres were basically stuck to the wheel, only removed on seeing advice on CZcams about carefully standing on the tyre to break the bead.
Grrreat video! Tonne of information condensed in to a single place. Very useful for learning and future reference!
Great video and explanation. I always ride tubeless but never heard of this. Think it is good to dive into this and checking my wheels and tires. Thanks đđ
Brilliant as you say to see the industry working so hard to find common standards that all can agree and use for production. Now, about those bottom brackets....
đ let's not get into that!
@@gcntech *Boss Music Starts Playing*
They should stick to just BB386/392, PF30 and BSA68/73/83/100
Shannon Trainer PF30 should only be used for kids' bikes, where a narrow Q factor is needed. BSA is outdated. It required a very thin BB housing to make 29-30mm spindles work. The only 2 standards that should be in use for adult road bikes are T47i and BB386EVO. For MTB, I would argue that there is no place for pressfit.
@@404nobrakes I'd argue the problem is to try to use a 30 mm spindle at all! Minimal benefit in that.
Super geeky, super detailed but oh so satisfying to watch. Thanks.
Still on hooked carbonclinchers with latex-innertubes and rimbrakes.
Elvis der Blasehase why? heard of tubolitos or aerothan?
After a season on carbon clinchers with latex sealant, I'm done with inner tubes.
panzerveps just not enough to win but so much to loose on that tl path for me
@@ianiscaratti4924 I've never experienced the tires being loose. Rather the opposite. Took me 20 minutes to force each tire onto the rim.
@@ianiscaratti4924 polyurethan is almost the worst for rollingresistance. Tubeless is the best, latex comes close, next are thin butyl and polyurethan and then comes the standard thick butyl. Dont believe every marketing hype đ
Wow, clicked on this vid reluctantly but have been pleasantly surprised. Really informative and interesting.
Thanks a lot for your brilliant explanation!
Bought a pair of 303 and running Pirelli PZero SL. A breeze to install and pump and the most comfortable setup I had in years. Running 58/62 PSI front and rear. Never go back!!!đ
Great to see Si again, what a champ!
I have the new ZIPP 303 firecrest hookless rims and have schwalbe pro tubeless 28 mm tires set up on them. There work flawlessly with about 60 psi for me (80kg). I highly recommend! In fact, it was Siâs video about the new Zipp wheels in the summer that convinced me to go this route. Thanks Si!!
yeap wait til they sell you the hookless rims with glued in hooks next, theyre even better yet! gotta love the industry
Really good video, thanksđđđ
Thanks đđŒ interesting video thanks for sharing your video GCN.
Thank you so much! Great video
Excellently presented. Didn't seem to be a sales video for Zipp or Pirelli. Having said that, I'm almost certainly going to try these 303 Firecrests with Pirelli tyres this summer đ
Interesting video! I didnât understand half of it, but am now well up for buying a pair of hookless rims! Thanks đđ
5,000 miles on my new Zipp 303S hookless wheel set. Love tubeless! Love the ride quality! Loved the price!
But, but, but...they're so DANGEROUS!!! Why you've probably died three or four times by now!
Completely agree, 1000 miles on mine on gravel, fantastic wheels and ride for the money
I just got a set yesterday and put a quick 50k on them. The ride is so good and smooth over Malaysia's rough roads.
What tires type brands/manufacture do you put on that zipp 303s?, I'm about to buy this wheels but still confuse about the tire
@@onggoangga This is the most complete list of tires... www.enve.com/en/lp/tire-compatibility/
Iâm sticking with hooks, you can use whichever tire you want.
Si is so good at this, serious yet not over technical
Super helpful video to bring me up to speed. Thanks
Great to hear, we're glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for all your videos, I have learned a lot. I'm in the process of switching to tubeless on the advice of my local bike shop. I'm wondering if you have switched yourself?
Super useful thank you
Perfect timing! I just learned that my GP5000 TL may not work with my hookless rims, which led to researching this subject! Thanks!
Conti specifically say do not use them on hookless
The same problem here. I do have nice and light hookless rims but the GP5000 TL are a nogo. Tried both Schwalbe and Michelin, they work fine. But would be nice if Continental is going to update the GP5000 TL, still the lowest BRR of all.
@@djjanbo It took Conti about a million years to make a tubeless tyre. Don't hold your breath waiting for a hookless-compatible one.
@@beeble2003 they have one already. The TR version
Rode a set of hookless rims with tubeless tires at 5 bar for a year or so. Fitted a new pair and rode it at the minimum pressure printed on the tire of 6 bar. The rear blew off after 15 mins of riding... Stick to the 5 bar limit!
Last week my new 28mm Conti S TR tire blew off my new Zipp 353 NSW. Just sitting in my living room at 73PSI while I got ready for my first ever hookless ride.
I've got hookless ( plain rims ) on a 1951 BSA Sport. 26 x 1 1/4" 32-597. Also a Raleigh 20 shopper 20 x 1 3/8". Also a Moulton Mini, 14 x 1 3/8".
Using new Zipp 303 Firecrest hookless wheel with 28mm Schwalbe Pro 1 TLE tires at 51/58 tire pressures. Everything so far has worked great. Easy to mount the tire and able to inflate with a track pump. Ride quality is excellent.
51/58 PSI - that's a joke ye?
Really helpfully video this GCN Tech thanks.
I have a question for you though. Whatâs the deal with Zipp 303s wheel sets and the Continental GP5000 tyres. Iâm hearing theyâre not comparable. Whatâs your thoughts?
Great info
I expected this video from doctor Bridgewood, but i missed Si lately, so it's a very welcome figure
I used tubeless tires for a while, not worth the trouble. They do work, but when you have a puncture that's to big the you are left with the mess of cleaning out the sealant at the side of the road, before you can put a inner tube in.
Try Joe's sealant, Conti GP 5k, and the Stans dart. Joe's is the best sealant I have found.
@@ThePaulbself I had conti 5k's. Now riding conti 4 season tires with inner tube. I'm not sure if I will try tubeless again. The roads here in Belgium are just to bad, especially on my route to work, since I ride mostly to get to work and back
Im embracing hookless & have some 303 S rims on order. LBS said I won't get them until January or February though!
Cool video Si. I've been riding tubeless for three yrs. I went tubeless because I thought was cool but, little did I know how much I would enjoy all the haters telling me tubeless horror stories, and they reason why they'll never ever go tubeless.
Ken, I have been riding road tubeless for a long time - whenever it started. I did it after punctures at three races over a weekend ended each race. I reckon I have had three or four ride/race ending punctures over that time, and two of those were sidewall cuts that were terminal for the tyre and would have been if riding tubed. I have finished races with the frame wet with sealant but the tyre got me to the end. I have run tyres down to the carcass, and been surprised when changing the tyre there were holes sealed I had not noticed. Early TL was a PITB but now it is easy, except for any Giant "tubeless ready" rim which are universally awful. I have friends who have tried TL and hated it, and that is fair enough, but for me it has been fabulous. Plenty of haters out there, but I spend a lot less time on the side of the road with a CO2 cannister than I used to. Curiously many of my friends who sledge my TL use on my road bike love TL on their MTB or GX bikes. I reckon long term hookless TL will take over.
@@brianglendenning1632 I don't which wheel set you have but, this past August I got a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest wheels. OMG they are easy to set up and the ride so way better then the Roval cl50's my Tarmac had as OEM. Cheers Brian and just so you know, I don't race I just hate flats riding my bike. Side note I lost 200 grams switching wheel sets.
@@KenSmith-bv4si hi Ken- had a range of TL wheelsets - mainly handbuilt wheels. Tried Various Stans rims, both variants of Pacenti, and currently the new Mavic Open Pro. I find those easy to mount - the issue is pulling spokes despite 32 spoke build using White hubs. But I will give those zipps a go!
@@brianglendenning1632 Thats cool Brian I have a set of Stan's Avion's then I bought my tarmac it came with the Roval CL50's, awesome wheels but, the 303's with 25mm internal rim with 28mm tyres the ride is awesome, 55psi front wheel, 60psi rear wheel.
My head is melting. I just like riding my bike and enjoying the freedom. Tyre and tube is fine for me, donât need to spend forever stressing on whatâs compatible with what, just get on the bike and ride!
Thank you for this videos, I suggested it not long ago. All the best and good content.
With my bikepacking tendencies, Iâll stick with hooked... if I need to replace a tyre out on a trip, I donât have to worry about what tyres are available
Correct tolerances are critical to press fit bottom brackets too, but I think we all know how that's worked out. I hope they do a better job with hookless rims, but I'm not convinced they will.
One piece and thread-together press fit bottom bracket from BBInfinite and Wheels Mfg cancels out that argument.
@@shannontrainer5857 Not really, it just highlights how bad bike component manufacturers are at complying with standards, and that other companies have had to plug the gap with expensive aftermarket components. I've just had to install a Hope bottom bracket to get around the issue, but I can't really say I'm happy at spending about ÂŁ100 to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, if the frame manufacturer (Trek in this case) had done their job properly.
thanks GCN
Very helpful, and compelling. I do have a question on mounting and repairing a puncture should it occur while riding. Iâve heard itâs a messy process. Can you speak about that? Grazie
You mention that hockless wheels will be cheaper but you buy them just once. What about the high price different of tubeless tyres which you buy more frequently, compared with the price of normal tyres?
Lighter wheels, but you're totally right.
I've been using tubeless since 2016. I've noticed no difference in wear rate and have not had a single puncture, including when riding my slick road tyres on gravel.
You would think that Si, would use SI units like bars for pressure and not imperial measurements.
PSI is the usual measure for tyre pressures in the UK where he's located.
Isnât the SI unit of pressure the pascal? Itâs the ETRTO that specified psi/bar according to the video so thatâs what he presented. Who really works in Kpa for tyre pressures anyway? Not many gauges have it as standard, not in UK anyway, weâre still using miles for distance donât forget! maybe in Europe does anyone know?
@@stephenwills2098 My understanding is that everybody uses PSI or bar for tyre pressures; Iâm not aware of anyone using pascals. The OP is probably just mistaken in calling bar the SI unit.
Actually, the OP is just speaking nonsense. I just watched most of the video again and it always seems to give pressures in bar. Sometimes it also quotes PSI, but I didn't notice any case where a pressure was given in PSI only.
Does it for the same reason he spells tire with a Y. That's how they do things in the UK.
Thanks for informative video- 5 bar would seem to be a bit low for the tandem 130kg?
I am mainly interested in the tire pressure advantage/disadvantage thing; could you explain on that, maybe in some dedicated video?
Basically you don't want the tire to be too hard, so it have to "climb" every little pepple on the road. You want the tire to be just supple enough to absorb the roughness of the drive surface.
Thanks excellent video.
Well what i want to ask you is if its possible to use this wheel without tubeless and a tire pressure of 100 to 120 psi? Whould you take the risk o just make another wheel choice?
Thanks!!
Great to hear that the new standard "leaves no ambiguity". Instead of 622mm, it's now 621.95mm. Plus/minus 0.5mm. đ Love this.
It's never been 622. MTB used to be 621.5; and road clinchers used to be 621.95. Now it's 621.95 for everything, including road tubeless and hookless. The reason this is an improvement is that tire suppliers can now manufacture to one standard instead of several. This is safer and simpler for everyone.
Bastien Donze these people don't understand the difference between nominal and actual measurements.
Its not new. Also, when the manufactorers doesnt meet the standards anyway, again the customer is the looser.
It's impossible to manufacture to exactly 621.95mm so the standard, like every standard in the whole world, says how close to 621.95mm you have to get to be allowed to say you comply.
Si = great videos.
Thanks!
Hi, very good explanation. I only have one doubt. Does the TLR tires work on this rims or it has to be especifically tubless. thanks
I used a schwalbe mtb marathon wire tire (clincher) with a tube on my hookless cross country rim for over 4000km, never had an issue, infact, kevlar bead tires got so loose after 800km that they wouldnt hold pressure for an entire day
And what are the wheels brands doing about the chance of damage on the rims caused for hitting a pan hole, for exemple, riding tyre pressures as low as under than 5 bar?
Very interessting that my SchĂŒrmann steel rims from the 70s are hookless as well
When will we see Zipp 202S be released?
Si, you mention that one can still use a tube with these wheels and some tubeless tires. I don't have any experience with tubeless wheels and do get flats from time to time, when I ride (I have clinchers with tubes). So, how easy is it to repair a flat that a sealant is unable to cover, vs. using a tube with tubeless tires? Cheers! Manny
I have some question, so what tubeless tire is compatible with zipp 303s? If you have to choose campagnolo shamal carbon or zipp 303s what will you choose and why? Thx befoređ
so if you have a hookless rim that is meant to have a max pressure of 72.5, but a tubeless tyre with a min pressure of 70psi, and a chart that say i should inflate my tyres to 80 psi, what pressure to you use.
So can I use the Pirelli p-zero TLR on hookless rims?
But the wheel weight doesn't matter right? You had that video where you spoke to the Swissside guy.
Might aswell get the wheels that don't cut your tyre choices in half.
Wheel weight matters as much as any other weight.
Been using tubeless with hooked carbon rims for over 12 months now and really like them. Just not convinced with hookless yet. What happens when a tyre punctures that won't seal and deflates, will the tyre remain seated or possibly roll off the rim? at least with hooks your guaranteed the tyre will remain seated even with a deflated tyre.
Itâs far easier to unseat a hooked tire than a hookless. I have a pair of Enve 4.5AR (25 mm internal width, and hookless) and theyâre absolute bastards to try and de-bead the tire. If you get a flat at the road side, it is possible to run a tube, but youâre in for some SERIOUS trouble removing the tire to put the tube in. Iâve tested 3 different types of tires, and thereâs a slight variance in fitment tightness, but holy shit theyâre difficult. If youâre not a staunch believer in tubeless, do not buy a set of hookless rims.
I'm really considering the Firecrest 303 hookless and run a 28mm tire. My only concern... will this be ok for heavy riders that are 85kg and over?
Don't know about the firecrest specifically but I run the Giant SLR1 rims at 115kg. Haven't had a problem so far in 2000km.
In a critical puncture it's possible to fit one inner tube to keep going and back home or stop no next LBS?
How is the use of sealants in these hookless setup? Same as to "older" tubeless?
I have a new pair of 303 firecrest. I race mostly criteriums, what tires would you recommend ?
Am running 2019 tcr, clincher and Conti 5k. My rims can run tubeless too, how to confirm if mew conti tires are compatible ? Thx!
SAFETY FIRST !! In an industry that values marketing hype and profits over engineering quality assurance/control I am not convinced by this technology yet. Many bike manufacturers still use the consumer as a lab rat by releasing unsafe or not thoroughly tested compatible product.Creaky BB's,holes that are not round,headsets with internal cable routing that can wear and fail,forks that can fail,cranks that fail,the list goes on and on. The whole bike/tyre industry needs to get their shit together IMHO.Standards are not standards until everyone agrees and strictly adheres to them,without conflicting standards and the highest level of QA/QC.
I have had this type of wheel for three months now, Zipp 303s. They feel amazing to ride at around 50 psi with 28mm and I have more confidence cornering at speed. Not to say 25mm tubed tyres can't corner well but the feel and my perception of grip make it easier for me to trust the bike.
The Vittoria Graphene 2.0 only lasted until two days ago when I noticed the tread layer was coming unglued (LBS will do the warranty thing for me), so I took them off and installed the P Zero Race TLR set I ordered a while ago. I had researched compatibility with hookless (tubeless straight side or TSS) but when I unpacked them there is a warning molded into the tyre "do not mount on hookless rims". I was initially very frustrated with this but went to the internet and apparently the first batches were made before testing was completed at Pirelli.
The tyres went on as easily as a conventional setup but I used an airshot to seat them. I think I might have gotten away without it but I had no trouble adding Stan's and inflating them.
My feelings about TSS so far are positive, but remember to check your pressures regularly and add sealant if they are deflating quickly. With the Vittoria tyres it was a little over two months here in Brisbane and the sealant needed refreshing.
I would say if you are in the market for new wheels then go for it, there will be some things to learn and buy but nothing more difficult than running tubes in my opinion and they feel much nicer to ride.
Happy cycling!
Interestingly, when I was ordering a new set of gravel wheels, the manufacturer tech thought it strange that I'd want hookless for gravel - he said it's mainly a MTB thing, and that he didn't feel it was warranted or up to par for gravel riding and narrower tires. So that switched me out of it, and I ordered hooked carbon wheels instead. I'm not sure I regret doing so if, as I understand it, hooked works better with tubed tires - my backup for tubeless out on the gravel is one or two tubes I carry with me just in case.
Donât worry about it. This is just an infomercial to convince you that a product that is less useful and cheaper to manufacture is instead better and worth more.
@@WordupG Ooh! lol. I have no doubt it's lighter, and may be somewhat more aerodynamic if the interface from the tire to the rim is smoother, but well put, Sean. I had not thought about it that way. :-)
#AskGCNTech for your disc brakes you have different disk pads. there are also ones with some kind of cool ribs. like Shimano L04C. is it really necessary to use these when driving in the mountains. and how much are they cooling?
What width of tyre do Zipp think I'm running if the optimal pressure is "substantially below 72psi"? That sounds like they're talking about, say, 60psi, which sounds extremely low for, say, 25mm tyres.
Almost 500 km since using Zipp 353 NSW wheels with Vittoria Corsa Next 28c tires. So far i don't have any problem with this setup. But i did ordered 30c tires, i think 30c will be sweet spot for this wheelset, will be more comfortable, stronger feeling and also i don't think it will be any slower. Roads are mostly not in very good condition where i ride. Also i don't think they are cheaper. I was going to buy Bontrager Aelous RSL 51 but then decided to go with Zipp NSW 353. Lighter and more comfortable for all around use, instead of pure aero. Plus they were almost same price, Bontrager a bit expensive, that's it.
I feel like a lot of the safety fears are founded on the narrow tires normally used on road bikes. In the automotive realm, a wheel width of 150-175 mm or more is pretty normal, and the tires that will go on it will be at least 25-30 mm wider than the wheel... that in turn means that when pressurized, the forces acting near the bead have a larger normal component than a tangential component. But of course, automotive tires are rarely very high pressure. Many are kept between 35 and 50 psi. That said, there are still use cases where the mechanical load on the tires can change the calculus there (e.g. off-roading, rock climbing), which is why things like beadlock setups exist. Even on a mountain bike or gravel bike, the wider difference between rim width and tire width along with the generally lower pressures afforded by tubeless equals some feasibility... But with road tires, there's barely 5 mmm of difference between tire width and wheel width, meaning that the forces under really high pressure aren't as well aligned to the normal of the rim lip. That also explains why the max pressure rating is ~72 psi. In the before times when inner tubes were still the only game in town, you had hookless wheels as well, but you had the tube pushing against the bead from the inside, so it helped to keep things seated.
I just purchased some Giant SLR1 hookless wheels with Cadex 700x25c tyres - Giant's own website recommends running 84psi for a rider my weight (with recommendations of up to 100psi for heavier riders).
I keep hearing the 72.5psi limit (mostly through other GCN videos), but can't find any references to it from Giant or Cadex. It sounds like this limit can be ignored (unless the manufacturer says otherwise) and the ETRTO guideline is somewhat arbitary?
Thanks for the video. Feeling less scared about the wheels now (confidence will come once a few thousand km are on them).
#askGCNtech Si mentioned that the optimal pressure for most road riders was much lower than they think. It would be great if you could explain this!
Hi Daniel, thereâs a video on GCN about this. Basically, softer tyres absorb vibration from the road that would slow you down, so you go faster with less pressure.
It's always so cool how cycling tech is evolving! Thanks for replying, it's really cool and congrats on your win!
Perhaps this will help. Enve wheels also has their chart and others. They seem pretty consistent in recommendation and are compiled from independent research of each company.
axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure
Well of course for tubeless, if not pinch problems (for me) would have to be problem and tubeless has its detractions (for me). I am not heavy either.
@@awesomexistence Wow, that gives a wayyyyy lower number than the other calculator I had used, which was based on the 15% drop method.
Interesting to see from your video that Pirelli emboss tyre info just above the bead. I have found that the tyre doesnât quite seal at that position until the sealant works it way around to that position. The raised writing compromises the bead rim interface. Not a huge deal obvs but why put it there? Great clear video đ
That is an interesting observation.
Good point. Itâs infact been moved upper to the rim line. Mass production is running withou that now đ
The research conducted by Silca and Tom Anhalt shows that the optimal pressure for most road riding is somewhere between 85-95psi (I forget the system weight - 80kg, i think?). You can plug your info into Silca's tire pressure calculator and see for yourself. And this backs up my experience as well, riding everything from 24c tires which measure 26.xx to 35c tires which measure out to 37mm. 85-90psi is definitely faster (and not just "feels" faster due to vibration losses) than 60-65psi.
So I am not really sure what the point of wheels that top out at 70 or 75psi is, as rated by the manufacturer. Saying "oh yeah, you can go higher" doesnt work - the manufacturer needs to back up their product and certify that it will work at those higher pressures, else they are just weaseling out.
Has there been any testing around punctures and how well a hookless rim holds a tyre if you suddenly get a flat? I use hooked tubeless, and unseating the bead is really difficult which gives me a bit of confidence that if Iâm descending and get a big slash in my tyre I wonât be rolling on carbon before I have the chance to stop.
Unseating the bead is the same on hookless, because itâs not the sidewall of the rim that holds it in place on either hooked or hookless, itâs the rim bed. So with tubeless tyre youâll be fine.
@@simonrichardson5259 Thanks. Seems like a complete no brainier then.
I'm currently using hookless rims and so far not had a problem.
One thing you forgot to mention is that Pirelli state on their website that their P ZEROâą Race TLR SL 24-622 and P ZEROâą Race TLR SL 26-622 are NOT compatible with hookless rims.
So if i wear to go hookless rims and get the right tubless tyres but needed/wanted to put a tube in it would that be a problem? And would i still run it at the lower pressure?
I had no idea about all this hookless stuff! Thanks for the heads up.
@GCN Tech .. is the "Pirelli Cinturato Velo TLR" for hockless rims??
Wow Si twice in one week. Bonus
Do we still use sealant for tubeless tyres and hookless rims?
Could I use these wheels 303 firecrest with chamber inside? On the page it says that a good size is 700x28 and I have the good year supersport, but when putting them on it is impossible to fit them with a chamber inside, other mechanics tell me that they can only be used with tubulars, thanks for helping me clear up my doubts
So... My question is... What if your total system weight is outside the "normal range". With 28mm clinchers I run PSI well into the 85+ range for a 118 kg total system weight. Are hookless rims essentially not a good idea for high system weight?
The "normal range" is just a incitive indication to convince poeple to ride on lower pressure. In your case, you actually HAVE to ride it 5.12 bar front and 5.44 bar rear to be obtimal (following sram pressure calculator). You're not just stubornly riding overpressured by tradition but actually because it is obtimal for your system weight. Tires are actually tested well above these pressures so don't worry, just ride it the obtimal way. ;) 5.44 bar is not even 10% higher that 5.0 bar.
Hookless rims didn't come 7 years ago, it was the other way around. Hookless rims were the standard until about the 70's, and then they slowly disappeared because of the non-rigid/flexible tires. Now they've come back because of the tubeless tires
I have these ZIPP 303 firecrest hookless rims fitted with GP 5000s TL - I really love them but I find I lose pressure every couple days - going from my preferred 60 psi to a 40ish. Does anyone know if this is normal ?
For those thinking that a big bump could easily increase the pressure in a tire to or past Zipp's stated 145 psi (to get a tubeless tire on their hooked rim to blow off), you're wrong. Let's say you inflated your road tubeless tire on that Zipp hookless rim to 100 psi. You'd have to completely compress 31% of your tire (basically 1/3 of your tire) to zero volume to see the tire pressure increase to 145 psi. At more normal road tubeless pressures, say 70psi, you'd have to compress over 51% of your tire to zero volume to get a blow-off. What all that means is that there's no bump that's going to cause a blow-off. A bump could damage the rim so that air pressure is lost, but that's not a blow-off.
tire pressure and volume is not linear...
@@yialanliu , who said it was?
@@robinseibel7540 Your math was assuming it is linear.
Hello everyone. I have bought zipp 303s wheels with this system in february 2020. my experience is good. The only drawback is that there are only two tyres on the market for this system. They are schalwe pro one tle and pirelli zero tlr. The first one lasted 1300 kms on the rear tyre and I had to change it, the second one with 1300 kms I have removed it to finish wearing it on the front wheel. The front tyre has 2800 kms and is still half life. For the reason of the high wear I tried with Pirelli and I think it's better, it's heavier, but I think I will mount schalwe in front 25 and pirelli in the back 28. In short it is a great wheel, weight 1540grams that you can ride with a good tyre the pirelli but this limitation of nerumaticos in the market is the only thing that worries me. if it is true that there are two but schalwe weighs 260grams but it wears out very soon and it is worth 55euros.
Si teaches things better than most of university professors.
Inflating a tire on a static test to 200 psi before it fails is one thing, but what about friction tests? You donât want to have the rim fail or the tire explode if youâre descending at 70km/h+ and braking before a tight corner for instance. 5 bars means to me that itâs mostly useful for tire width of 28mm or more. Also disc brakes are mandatory for that IMO. Iâve been using tubeless tires for the last 3 years and Iâm very happy about the technology, but this one Iâm on the fence.
No-one sensible has rim brakes anymore.
W DL
They cost less, are lighter and work.
@@granthutchinson5937 Not in the rain they don't.
@@manfredmuench2657Maybe on carbon wheels, but on aluminium wheels they work well in the wet.
It feels like a development in marketing and lower manufacturing cost
So how come Conti 5000TL state on the sidewall that they can only be used with a hooked rim?
It's great that more rim manufacturers are getting on board with dimension and pressure standards. But to complete the equation, tire manufacturers must also join the party and to date, few have.
Great in paper. But you really think the factories in china give a shit about the super tight tolerances? Yeah maybe in their make belief world that would happen
Will riding such a lower pressure increase the risk of "snake-bite" punctures? Most times I snake-bite are because I didn't top off my tires to 100psi.
Tim
Well it definitely won't if you're running tubeless