Does Rim Width Make A Difference?
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- What is rim width and does it matter? Tires and wheels are essential bike components and can severely impact ride quality. Si has teamed up with @RideShimano to investigate how much wheel rim width and tire width play a role in gravel riding. Will changing these variables make a big difference to the bike feel and ride?
In association with @RideShimano 👉 gcn.eu/RideShimano
00:00 Intro
00:51 What is rim width?
02:06 Types of bike wheels and tires
02:45 Blind test explained
04:17 Why does wheel rim width matter?
06:57 Bike tires shape changes
09:15 Is there a downside to wider-rimmed bike wheels?
10:40 Does rim width affect rolling resistance?
12:20 Si guesses the wheel rim width
13:22 Which rim width was faster?
13:54 Conclusions
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What rim width are your wheels? 🛞
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What rim width are your wheels? 🛞
G-rim-ey
Most of my wheels are old school and have a 13mm internal width. A few have the "wide" 15mm width.
I once squeezed on a 28mm tire, on a rear wheel, for winter riding, on one of those 13mm rims.
Don't forget that you need to know the E.R.D. when building wheels up.
As wide as possible!
Gravel: 28mm 700c (Nukeproof Neutron V2 - it's a non-boost MTB wheelet) and 26mm 650b (Prime Orra).
Road: 25mm 700c (Zipp Firecrest 303) and 23mm 700c original set of the gravel bike.
I run 700x30 tires on 25mm ID rims on my road bike. I’d love to see this test repeated for road surfaces as compared to gravel. Great video either way Si.
19 mm inner width with 40 mm tyres on my gravel bike Rose Backroad Al.
Apples and oranges. Both should have been aluminum or carbon, same rim depth and same spokes.
yeah...this test is not a fair test.......
Can't you even hear the difference between carbon and aluminium?
And same tyres.
@@MicroageHD exactly, the tan walls are not just a different colour they are usually also more subtle which makes a substantial difference.
Perhaps a better experiment would keep constants constant like using aluminium wheels for both widths and using black or gumwall tires for both wheels since wheel composition and even sidewall composition can make a big difference in feel.
It’s definitely not a perfect test that’s for sure, more there for interest!
Love you Simon!
Exactly, too many variables.
I’m not familiar with any aluminum gravel wheels with a 25mm internal width. But this was also sponsored, so they were already limited.
Most modern “gumwall” tires are the same as the black. The sidewall rubber is just brown instead of black.
Panaracer is probably the only manufacturer of a tire that would be close to a traditional gumwall.
You should ask Zipp about internal rim width and how great wide road rims work with hookless. It literally blows your mind!
ask thomas de gent and the riders union what they think about it
More like blows your wheel and your race…
I have a set of Zipp 303 firecrest(25mm internal) on my Aethos with 28mm skins(@50psi) except this year I'm moving to 30mm tyres and dropping the TP to around 48psi(maybe lower) front and back.
Love my hookless wheels. I'll probably never buy a hooked wheel ever again. My guess is that they just had the pressure too high. Even at 90kg, no issues. That said, we saw way more failed tubulars than tubeless but it wasn't news because it was just a thing that happened from time to time.
@@veganpotterthevegan what is the advantage of hookless in your opinion? Because there isn't any expect lower production cost...
Guys, the rims should have been identical materials, spokes gauge, spoke number, spoke tension, nipples, and rim cross section. To start Alloy is more compliant than carbon. You introduced a ridiculous amount of a variables and did not account for any of it. Carbon wheels micro bounce/chatter over bumps and this decrease grip. Alloy flex more and increase grip, generally
Hey Andrew, I think there are many reasons why this isn’t a scientifically valid test, not least that there is a sample pool of one!
I know it takes lots of energy to produce videos. It's a fun video to watch, mission accomplished, thank you. Now back to the topic. The tire/wheel/rim system has the most profound effect on perceived and actual ride quality. This is more so than any other variable, (frame geometry, frame materials, components etc.) I'd would love to see some single test bike and rider used with appropriate sensors, to test an array rims and tires. The sensors would measure transmitted vibration to the frame. The amount of vibration "may" be correlated to efficiency and rider energy conservation (fatigue). Lowering these "may" preserve watts and mph/kph. Just a thought.
Stephan, you are half of the reason I even watch this channel. I don't know what you guys do to record such crisp sound both indoors and outdoors, but other folks in CZcams could learn a lot (including GCN en Español). The camerawork is also *chef's kiss*.
I agree! The photography is amazing
Wow the editing on this video is so much more creative than most gcn vids! Really liked the “tiny” idea. Awesome!
For those interested, René Herse just published, Mar. 1, an article about tire testing.
Nothing more than marketing
@@timfox4613 Yet gives an insight into how some manufacturers test. Though, I suppose all our comments are selling something, including our cynicism?
Simon! I'm so curious to hear of your experience with riding a bike wearing your vision deprivation system !! I'm half blind (one eye doesn't work) and the other one has a significant blind spot in the lower half. What that means is that I see about what you saw with your visor in place! (minus the right visual field)
My question, did you find yourself hitting unsuspecting holes, bumps, sticks/roots etc? Was it alarming or frightening? I know not the point of your video (which was super neat and informative), but I so rarely get to compare notes with a similarly impacted athlete.
XOXO, I have loved watching the channel grow over the last decade. You people are such great personalities and ambassadors.
Outer Rim, Mid Rim, Core, Deep Core, Wild Space... you gotta find that sweet spot 😁
My old touring rims on my road bike are 19s, and pinched the 28mm Contis I tried to run for greater comfort (@ 10 years ago) enough the front tire would scrape the underside of the fork crown under rebound. Now, I was running 100 psi (I run about 80-85 now) so that likely attenuated the bulbousness caused by narrow rim and larger tire. At least, that's how I looked at it at the time, as I dropped back to 25mm tires. When I bought new wheels for my gravel bike two years ago, I went from 23mm OEM's to 25s, and it seemed to spread the tread a small amount and create a better ride, on and off road. I'm too cheap to replace the road wheels with wider rims until these finally wear out (and I mostly ride my gravel bike anyway), but when I do I'll go with wider inside width rims and see if the 28mm tires don't hit the crown anymore.
Прикольні відео , переглядаю кожен день , це як бальзам для душі😃
The importance of width was made very clear on my MTB. I used to run a different rear wheel (a crap Jalco rim on a crappier shitmano hub) to my glorious Halo Tornado laced around a Hope Pro 4. The Jalco was 23mm, the Halo is 33mm. At that time I was running a matching pair of Continental Der Kaiser Apex tyres, 559-61mm the rear was lightbulbed to hell, the front was perfect. I since upgraded to a set of Brand-X trail wheels (tubeless and everything). 28mm with a 60mm up front and 57mm out back. Both tyres have the perfect profile and are fast as hell.
Grip, cornering performance and comfort are all improved by the right rim.
Solomon is one of GCNs best presenters. : - )
is the difference due to the difference of rim width or due to the different material or both?
Material definitely was something I thought about but cut it out of the final video as it was getting way too long!
It can make a difference in my experience but how noticeable depends on the difference between the rim and tire.
I rode a 28c road tire on a 28mm internal mountain rim. It was super aero but it rode very harshly. I think because it essentially had no sidewall.
In my experience wider is better but most wheel and tire combinations have a kind of an efficiency zone whereas long as you’re close enough it’s works well. It’s not critical. Just don’t go to extremes.
(as you pointed out at the end of the video ) You're supposed to use the silica calculator and with the wider rim lower the air pressure with the wider rim to be a fair comparison.
I think it was worth doing both to try to see how and why rim width matters.
Pair that with your oversize shades and...well I dunno, but it'd be Monty Pythonesque.
BTW, you should submit that blinder to Hack / Bodge.
This undervisor with shades is what Teen Graneet would wear
(seems my original comment with more understandable reference didn't pass censortube)
Did they test with flap up and flap down, which would be faster.?
Good video/subject. Could you do a road bike comparison version (and with the same wheel material for each)?
+1, for example Elite Wheels Drive 40D or 50D (21/28 mm) versus G45 (“gravel” with 24/31 mm), with the same 30 or 32 mm road tires.
Now this is some highly cientific testing. Congrats Sy!
I think you mean Si-entific.
always funny, pleasant and interesting ! thanks
When is the road only version of this video coming out? And what about mismatched tire width? Should two different width wheels be used? I have Elite Wheels 45D DRIVE that have 21mm internal width. On the rear there is 32mm Conti GP 5000 and on the front 25mm Conti GP 5000. The winter here is brutal at 6134 feet so I have not had a chance to ride with them as yet.
My wheelset have a 17mm internal rim width,but they are very strong being Mavic Crossmax SLR's,hit a pothole at 40km/h and the rear only dented slightly which was later removed with some careful tinkering.😬
For me, for road, perfection is…
19mm internal for 25mm tyres
21mm internal for 28mm tyres
23mm internal for 30-32mm tyres.
Highly unscientific of comparing apples with oranges as usual, but very well put together and entertaining as always!
As a roadie who's bought a lot of Chinese carbon rims, I buy wider and wider, which means I can run wider tyres (currently 30C front and 32C rear), with a flush interface, which means I have aero wheels (I do routinely find myself going fast), and now I laugh even at gravel sections or crappy asphalt, when on 25C I was very wary of getting punctures. 32C rear is a chonky boi. And comfy. My butt likes.
Does anyone know what happened to the GCN+ films?
Si your stuff is hilarious. Do you write it all or do you have an army of comedic writers ? Seriously always so funny.
Thank you!
Another stellar vid and very interesting.
PS: Drywall? Currently doing the same. My sympathies!
Love the blind test strap! ❤️❤️❤️
Not all superheroes wear capes lol
do remember when mavic rated the 22mm external width x517 mountain bike rim to 2.5inch tyres. times have changed. but i dont' mind 20mm internal up to 29x2.0 xc tyres
I've had 2.1 tires previously, now 2.0 on 17mm rims with no issues whatsoever. Over 20k kms. Only doing light XC / gravel type riding though.
Test needs to be done again with like for like rim material .
But was the speed difference down to the lighter carbon wheels vs the heavier aluminum wheels? Or was it down to the rim width? We can't say because you changed too many parameters in your test.
I've exclusively ridden 100mm(external)/94mm(internal) rims for nearly a decade now. No complaints.
Now we know why Andrea Tafi cut off the top of his cycling caps. 😂
Certainly in the motorcycle, and for that matter automotive world, tire and rim width are usually specified together. You wouldn't put a 180 width tire on a 3" wide rim - it would completely distort the intended tire shape. So maybe bicycle tires should specify the intended rim width.
Zipp 404 58mm depth 23mm ID on one bike. The others are probably 20 ID ballooned and 23 ID mm. I'm changing the 20 out soon..fast but super squirrely...it's going to get the ENVE Ses 70 mm depth 23mm ID. But I don't ride gravel yet.
On my tourers it's 22mm with 43mm tyres, on my Hardtail it's 29mm with 60 tyres front 56.25 rear, on my f/s 33mm with 60mm tyres and f/s ebike it's 33mm with 60 mm tyres.
All except the tourers have cushcore inserts. All 29ers - tourers 700c
No squerm, no distortion corner on rails! Pressures between 25 - 28 psi front and 23 - 26 psi rear depending on conditions. Tourers - untill ghey are fully pumped with a bit of give in them!
The internal rim width doesn’t affect volume “to a certain extent” it affects it directly and significantly
I wan to get some really wide gravel tires but I'm finding the selection is VERY limited. Most of what manufacturers are calling gravel wheels seem to me to only be sized right for about 30mm tires. Of course I want some for 40mm tires.
Equal psi in different rim widths is a silly test. At your weight, you should try 22psi in the 25mm rims. Then if you are good at deweighting the bike (think CX) you could ride them at 20psi. The wider rims at the right psi are night and day different when you optimise the psi...
20?! Jesus, what surface do you ride on, marshmallow?! 😂
Interesting, I have a question. Why did they think back in 1992 (when I was a proper cyclist and member of the cycling touring club UK) that thinner, the better - 23 no problem”
Every specific rim width for every specific tyre width, plus/minus a mm, mm and a half if you're liberate. Simple as this. Unless bike tyre manufacturers adopt automotive principles of tyres with different width/profile ratios.
Does this mean you are using wider rims? 👀
@@gcn or narrower tyres, using am I?
Anyone knows? Reserve 40 44 wheels says max 40mm tire for theirs 25 internal rims. If you want to go wider 40-50mm tire you need to buy 27mm internal gravel rims. Any idea why they don’t want you to write 45-50 mm tire on 25mm rim ? Makes no sense to me.
I run 25mm tyres on my road bike (widest ones that will fit under the mudguards). If I had 23mm internal rims, wouldn’t the tyres just fall off? Anyway my internal rims are 15mm apparently (Mavic Open Pro rims)
I guess 23ID rims are too wide for 25c tires. Probably 19ID is widest rim for 25c tires.
Can you make a video on asymmetrical rims?
How does the internal rim width influence the tyre width you can use???
Did I miss it or was there a surprising omission of any mention of tire hysteresis? More importantly why faff about with the visor, why not just black out the bottom six inches of Si's riding glasses?
I couldn't help but notice the carbon gravel wheel had a big chunk gouged out of it. Seems like a questionable wheel material for an application where rim hits are likely?
@si_richardson it's a good thing you didn't sneeze heavily when wearing your upside hat!
Thanks Si for risking life and limbs (limited vision) on this test.
I ride on road with a wider rims, and the extra comfort (lower tyre pressure) is appreciated with what feels like no sacrifice in speed.
Si believe comments section will push back on your comparison mate. Wheel design difference would for your particular test would have as much to do with 'feel' difference than width. Likely not even the same thread count tires used for both sets of wheels. Reality is, for any meaningful dive into a give bike spec, other factors have be held constant or there is a biased result.
None-the-less, you put a lot of effort into this video and thank you for that as you did touch upon many dynamic differences. Takeaway for the amateur rider is...buy good cheap aluminum narrow rims to keep weight down as mentioned for gravel or mtb and have at it.
If you are an elite amateur or pro, of course chase that last watt. Only thing wider carbon rims will do is make your wallet lighter as stronger riders pass you on the trail.
can you please do this for road bikes
The greatest debate: Peak Up? Peak Down? I guess we know now... Peak upside down.
Now you just need to pair that blinder contraption with a pair of your massive sunglasses and you’ll be setting the 2024 fashion trends!
I once fitted 32mm touring tyres to my Mavic Open Pro rims (28mm tyres max), didn’t work.
That might be your specific combination. You can look up the etrto spec for what tyre width max should fit on any rim width.
Fatbikes are the best for all conditions except for long road rides and even then you get the most comfort.
13:30 the difference was felt because of material, not the width.
I think a new tire, bike or even jersey makes you faster the first couple of rides. Probably the risk taking inspirational effect.
After a while it wears off and you want something new again
With all of the grand resources of GCN, You guys can't find two identical bikes and two sets of blackwall tires to test? Good grief.
I would like to see them do this on just the front wheel. It would be fast and cheap to do, and tell us about steering dynamics without confounding factors.
2:39 James the Bike Guy moment
We've got elves for everything 👀
I was going to make fun of this video because of the groundbreaking information 😜 but since Sy makes videos fun to watch even if the information is not , well groundbreaking 🤣. Very entertaining 👍
I go with a gravel build equipped with wheels measuring 21mm. Using 28mm tires I felt less secure cornering when comparing with a 37mm tire.
Come on GCN .... soon as you said alloy rim and carbon rim .
Bike feel and weight comes into the equation etc
thumb down can't understand the speaker when I turn the bass music down...
Why did you run them at the same pressure if one of the advantages of the wider rim is to be able to run lower pressure?
You might have missed that bit towards the end but I dropped the pressure after a lap and did a second loop.
2-3mm difference in road tires +/-, so in extremes it’s 5/6mm difference.
Kawasaki Ninja review when? In April?
I always love watching Si do tests but come on. Testing to to tell the difference rim width makes....... But using wheelsets of different materials and a significant weight difference? Dr Bridgewood can explain scientific control. 😊
I know it’s backed by ‘science’, but is this obsession with ever wider tyres driven by marketing for sales, which we all fall for?
12:00 1W faster in rolling resistance and 2W slower in some other metrics 🤷♂️😅
Graphics would’ve made it easier to understand, for me at least.
Another thing to obsess about.
More grip is ALWAYS better in the dirt
Like he isn’t going to see the tire… come on.. we all know he will get a view at some point from the bumps and naturally looming down for clearance.. that visor isn’t going to do anything lol
Haha, it genuinely worked! No word of a lie, I couldn’t see what I was riding.
@simonrichardson5259 i find that hard to believe you didn't accidnetly glance down even once lol. We still believe you.. but the tempation or habit i feel like would get you.
Test it on road bike!
My road bike have 13.5mm on the back and 15mm on the front.That mean i can put only the 25mm tire!
I have two sets of wheels: Stans and Reynolds. They are different materials. There is a 2mm internal rim width difference. I ride 28mm on the narrower rims and between 38mm to 43mm tires on the wider. The difference in feel is dramatic. However, the wider tires do have a noticeable increase in drag.
Sorry gin you testen carbon rim vs aluminium rim, and even came to the conclusion Al rims are more comfortable and I can run higher tire pressures
Just went from 30 to 35 internal. NIGHT and DAY difference. Smoother. But here is the thing. When going over curbs and rocks the rear of my eMTB always shimmied a bit side to side. Now I have way more control and comfort. Why oh why did Specialized do this to me? So much so I can ride no hands now. Narrow wheels are just STUPID on a mountain bike. But this study was stupid comparing apples and strawberries. You should have made them both same material. Sheesh! Has anyone done science? The watt saving would likely offset the increased mass.
2 things. Thing 1: Rims should have been the same material for the test. Thing 2: What's a 'boffin' ?
Si, you look a total plum in that blinker 😂
So comfort=speed
Well, that'll give Cade some new content.
Remember the time when GCN did real reviews and tests? Me neither. Maybe we should ask Matt.
Specialized Creo 2024 has wider rims than last year
If they are both 40mm what’s the difference
Everything seems to be convincing despite one thing. If you compare carbon rims with 21 mm to the same carbon model which has 25 mm you will notice that increase of rotated mass is about 100 or more grams. So you need to consider that bike becomes heavier and this is one of the problems of modern bikes that they are more and more heavy... To be honest I want 100 or even 200 grams lighter wheels than 0,5 W of lower rolling resistance 😉
Aren't tan walls faster?
TMI ...too tiring x
Gavel/ 90s mountain bike.
Yes. I tried putting my car rims on my bike and they didn’t fit. So, yes-rim width matters.
Most of SI tests are badly conducted. How about you choose the same material for both sets and maybe try to produce the same power, speed or heart rate.
Mvdp could probably say how much miliwatt he gains or loses with different wheels and air pressures.
carbon rim vs aluminium rim... test fail... wheels need to be the same for apples to apples...
Sorry Si, drifted off there and stopped caring.
Dudes ride DH bikes with 30/ 25mm inner width
compare carbon wheels vs. aliuminium.... ok.:(((
Quantum mechanics or rim width theory which is easier to comprehend? Me thinks QM might be easier 😅
a watt is a watt xDDDDD that sounds like meme material.
A Watt is a Watt he says.. Soooo Watt is it? 🤔