Mk 262 Cloning - pt 3 - Sierra vs Nosler with CFE223
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- čas přidán 3. 09. 2017
- We are on a quest to duplicate or clone the Mk 262 Mod 1, also known as Black Hills 5.56 77gr OTM. Today we try out Hodgdon CFE223.
UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with CZcams content policies.
www.patreon.com/reloading
Did you just shoot your best group ever with a Nosler? LOL good shootin'!
The top row of groups are the Sierras. The Noslers still shot pretty well! I made things confusing by shooting the Nosler first, even though it was the bottom row. Sorry about that!
No that was sierra
Man congratulations on very quickly becoming one of the best reloading channels on youtube! You are killing it! Keep it up!
Johnny I've been reloading with CFE223 since it came out and my groupings with the right bullet run with less powder always shoots like your seeing at 24.4 with sierra. I think not going for max powder load makes a big difference not just in accuracy but in casing life. In an effort to extend the life of my brass I always load a lesser powder load. I have been rewarded with great groupings and use less powder, wear out less brass and shoot like I know what the hell I'm doing. It might just be my sweet spot but my homemade matchgrade ammo is always made mid range of a powder load. Of course tested at the range. I then powder coat them with different colors so I know which .223 is for what. A plinking color for ammo for fun, a color for match and a color for long distance shooting. These are just my thoughts not trying to change anyone else's minds or say that I'm a better than anyone else rather that this works for me. These are the type of groupings that I would expect. IMHO you have found your sweet spot Johnny. I would try to find it on each caliber with the powder that works for you and of course a kick ass projectile like sierra. You make amazing videos keep them coming. With these grouping I won't suggest you use a bolt action rifle.. your AR15 is perfect based on this load data you are using. Well done.
Hats off to you JRB. Excellent shooting. I called the .25 group coming after the last vid. This MK262 series is fantastic. Thumbs up. Hope you test 8208, Varget and Tac as well in this series.
Maybe load up to about another half grain past what you think your max charge is just in case you don't get there with velocity, as this MK262 round is a smoking hot round.
There is people who spend several thousand's of dollars with custom blueprinted bolt rifles to shoot groups in the .2's, I love seeing a semi auto AR laying down groups like that.
It blows my mind that this is a dirt cheap Palmetto State Armory upper that I just slapped a nice barrel into. It sure can shoot! Varget will be next due to the overwhelming number of requests.
Love your reloading channel Johnny very very informative I would love to see this CFE 223 powder with a 77 grain burger bullet, The groups you’re getting with Sierra and Nosler are fantastic
Johnny, just a tip, I use a 1/2 inch square for my aiming point at 100 yard testing, a 1/2 inch round will work fine. At 200 I go to a 1 inch and 300 a 2 inc, it keeps the center focus nice and small and as a result get a little tighter groups.
Excellent series. I can't wait for the next installment!
Thanks for being really informative with the info. I just started reloading, i got into it because of 300blk and 223. I find you video's very helpful.
I am really enjoying this series, new to reloading and your videos are the best on CZcams
I'm loving these videos so much great information! Great shooting as well, I'm definitely going to look into getting into reloading now! Thanks
Great video Johnny ! cant wait until tomorrow !
Really looking forward to the Varget video. I'm working on the same project but so far staying with CFE223 and Varget. I stopped at 24.3 last time using CFE and 24 grains with Varget. And, I'm only using Sierra non cannalure. I don't care about exactly cloning the MK262, I just want the 77 SMK to hit about 2700 fps and be accurate, hopefully with very low extreme spreads. I'm crimping mine with the Lee FCD using a light crimp. I've tried crimp/no crimp on match loads with and without cannalures with no difference in accuracy unless the crimp is just extreme...and there is no reason for that. Enjoying this video series and the Bobs' bullets stuff very much! Keep up the good work.
Thank you for your time. Hope you have a great Labor Day.
for a target. I like using little yardsale stickers that a local store sells. they are basically the size of the little orange price tag stickers.
Congrats; I know you are feeling better with all of those nice groups. Shootin' well makes you want to shoot even better. Aim small, miss small.
To save components, I'll often make a scatter chart using (grains,velocity) as my (x,y). The trendline gives a reasonably accurate prediction of what your velocity will be at a given charge for the powder and bullet you've plotted. For example, using the data made available in this video I found trendline equations for your specific situation here. 77SMK & CFE223: vel = 160.67(grn) - 1332.07, & 77NOS & CFE223: vel = 146.33(grn) - 1017.53. You can plug in your desired velocity, and solve for powder grains to get yourself in the ballpark. Thanks for video!
I feel like too many reloaders chase the clone, more than the results. As someone who is a DOD military small arm ordnance handler. Military small arms ammunition is usually stuck on trials and paper requirements over field results. You can greatly improve on all of these military/factory loads.
I think reloaders being they have access and freedom to use any powder and supplies they want, not what the paper pushers upstairs collected. They could not only clone with better supplies, but improve greatly using different supplies and options.
I recommend you using their results and testing, but experiment with "better primers and powders" to gain the same or better results at the same OAL. Instead of chasing their mysterious powder, charge and bullets.
I would personally substitute their mystery power with varget, IMR or h355 and open the options for 16" guns and or improve on their load.
I sure appreciate all these great videos and glean much helpful information. Thank you. I shoot a Ruger 77 heavy barrel with a moderator and a Steyr Pro Hunter both in .223 and both give very good results.
Another outstanding video. Should get my 500 Sierra projectiles the next couple of days.
18" Daniel Defense S2W rifle length gas barrel slinging 75gr Hornady OTM at 2800ish with CFE 223. Pretty hot load but what I found with CFE is that the hotter I got, the better it shot. SD was in the low teens and the brass was still reloadable after firing. Proceed with caution.
Well looks like I’m ordering these components to try in my gun! Thanks for the great video and valuable information!
Great video and outstanding shooting
This is a great video series!
Excellent results. Now I think it is time to build that bench you have talked about. I think a good bench will help with the potential fatigue you may be experiencing towards the end of each range session. Additionally, I find the bench to be a more comfortable shooting position for shooting groups.
Loving the results of superstar CFE 223.....
Great shooting and great info ! Thx, FletchMan
Sierra is kicking butt
Shoot N C targets have orange and black dots to cover your impacts after shooting a group. You could use those as your POA as they are 1/2" or 3/8".
Wow great results!
Agree on the other comments that the 75 GR Hornady BTHP is an acceptable replication. It's also available for around 14 cents per bullet. That's a lot more shooting than the Sierra or Nosler bullets!
That's all I shoot. They really are underpriced and worth their weight in gold.
Trevor Spencer
I do the same and found them to shoot as good as the Sierras and they are much more affordable. I read there is a military load called MK362 that is the 75gr hornady but everything else the same as MK262..same powder and charge..etc. I don't know if this is true or not but I do get pretty much identical results with it
I second the Hornady 75gr BTHP. Using 24.3 grains of RL-15, I get consistent sub-inch groups with a WOA Stainless Barrel.
Finally. 0.226" Congrats, you bastard!!! 👍👍👍
Hey that's a good one on headspace once you know the size of your chamber no matter if it outta your gun or range pick-up you size it to your measurements
One thing to keep in mind is the closer you try to get to the lands, the more you are eliminating the bullet lead that makes a NATO or Wylde chamber what it is and you are heading back into .223 territory. It's that lead that gives you the ability to hit higher pressures. Yes, you are at the same time adding powder space, but if you take advantage of that it eliminates both safety measures: overal case capacity and bullet lead. Not a criticism at all, just something to keep in mind.
Awesome channel! Thank you!!!
Geissele hi speed match trigger. Pricey but amazing trigger for the ar15.
Sent a donation. SIERRA 24.4! NICE!
Thanks, dude. I appreciate it!
Johnny keep in mind that BH frequently will get a bullet maker to get a custom bullet that is similar but not exactly what is available as a reloading component. The BH 50gr TSX load is a different (and better) bullet than the 50gr TSX available as a reloading component.
I actually had a part in this video where I questioned whether that might be the case, but I cut it out. I was just rambling and didn't really make any point. I don't really know what sort of volume the military buys, but I'm sure the manufacturing and supply chain from Sierra to Black Hills is a lot different than Sierra to our store shelves.
I was about to post the same. Most, if not all bullet manufacturers will do custom OEM orders.
Johnny's Reloading Bench it’s different enough that if the military insisted they want a cannelure, they will make new bullets that have one.
The debate behind it was that the cannelure actually makes the bullet less accurate. The military was willing to sacrifice minor accuracy change for better terminal ballistics.
The cannelure causes a weak point in the jacket making the round more likely to fragment.
Hornady measuring comp. is nice to use because the tip of almost all bullets are deformed and will give inaccuracy in readings if measuring from the tip only.
Very true. It's a great tool. Hopefully I didn't confuse anyone into thinking it's not extremely useful!
I been tryin to tell you that the aim, close your eye, pull the trigger method could work really well for you - LOL Great series as always
something else to consider is that I think sometimes factory loaded bullets are slightly different than component bullets for reloading. I bought some factory loads of 22-250 with a 55gr sierra gameking hollow point and it shot incredibly accurate so I wanted to load my own. I bought a box of 100 sierra gameking 55gr hollow points and they were obviously different than the factory. The hole points in the box of 100 were much larger than the factory, like twice as large. So maybe the SMK component bullets are slightly different than the factory loaded bullets? IDK
Great shooting today man! Those are some smoking groups cfe223 and 69 grain smk have been my best load for my ar. You should check out the trigger tech adjustable ar trigger that's what I run in one of my more precision ar platforms and it is a great trigger that will go down to just under 2.5 pounds if you want a little lighter pull. Very clean and consistent brake best I've felt in a ar platform for percision
The reason behind the "light" cannelure on the Nosler CC 77grn bullet is the same reason why the US military reject the Nosler in the first place after testing it - the Nosler has too "thin" a jacket and when pushed at the velocities the military wanted the Nosler bullet's thin jacket tends to explode in soft tissue. I found the same in my testing of it against the Sierra 77 grn SMK.
Lest we forget that the Hague Convention of 1899{1] calls for the abstention from a military/army using, "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions." The Nosler potentially violated this Geneva accord and the "light' cannelure when compared to the SMK bears this out, IMHO.
ps - (added) as I shot a custom Redline 77grn SMK (non-cannelued) load in "F" Class years before the MK262 Mod 1 was developed - I can honestly tell folks that any reload shot through "your" rifle is substantially and noticeably "MORE" accurate the second time fired through "your rifle's chamber" than the first time it's fired. In competition I always made certain my rounds had been fired "at least once" through my CR6724 AR rifle before shooting in competition.
I use CFE 223 and hornadys 75 grain bthp in a passable clone of mk262. Good accuracy and velocity.
Go hot or go home! Good work! Might need to follow suit with some 77gr TMK'S.
For a aiming point, use a inverted V, made with a sharpie. Then aim at the point.
AR gold makes the best trigger hands down at about 2.5lbs and no takeup or overtravel
Don't forget about TAC as well!! I get better velocity with TAC then CFE223 in my 77gr 5.56 loads.
Love the channel!
What would you rather have, a tighter group with a higher SD or a slightly larger group with a SD in the single digits? I know the SD was getting better as you were going up in charge weight but that .226 group is hard to argue with. Seem like small SD numbers and accuracy don't always go hand in hand.
Ive been told CFE is BLC-2 with a copper cutter added
Timney makes the "Calvin Elite" trigger for AR-15. It's 1/2 pound. I have one on my AR in 6mm ARC. It cut my groups in half.
Seems like cfe223 jut likes these bullets
if you need smaller targets use the multicolored yardsale dots and just draw a dot in the middle of them i think they are either 1/2 - 3/4'
Wow incredible results with CFE and is this the first time you are finally getting some accuracy with Nosler bullets? That sub 1/4 group should be cut out and hung up on your wall!
Absolutely love the channel!
Idk if you have looked at the hornady manual but they show a 25.9 gr. max for an 80 gr. bullet and 26.5 gr. for a 75 gr. bullet with CFE 223 so you should have plenty of room to move up according to NATO specs. Should be fun to watch. I still think you should try BL-C2 as well. Shows good velocity on paper and it did start of as a military power.
You mentioned wanting a lighter trigger. I've been considering the timeny 2 stage it's 2lb first stage and 2lb second. It's two stage like I said but the second stage is the one matters and it's 1.5lbs lighter than what you have now!
Larue Tactical still has their TAC MBT trigger and dry fire chassis on sale for $100. Nice two stage might help you out a little.
I love my Geissele's but my MBT feels very nice too !
Man i am gunna have to try CFE and & SMKs
I've found ball powders are only consistent when they're loaded hot, and they're always consistent when loaded hot. I just load max that is safe in summer heat and call it done when using ball.
Great job on the series man, I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more on your split case bullet setup/hornady comparator. Maybe do a short video showing the differences. When I checked my chamber with hornady 68gr hpbt match bullets I get a close average of 2.388. The longest I can get out of the magazine is about 2.240. Any thoughts ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Keep up the good work.
WOW! LIKE THE GROUPS
5.56
IMR 8208 @ 23.8
77gr MK
LC Brass
WIn Small Rifle primer
2748 FP in MK 12
Duplicates MK 262
I read the black hills info and they said, the rounds they sell in the military market are different from what they sell in the civilization market. They dont go into detail what's the difference between the two rounds. Maybe you can get your mitts on some actual military rounds. It's worth a shot. The closely watched, tested and worst kept secret of M855A1 is on the market now. So maybe you can put out some fillers, to your viewers and see if anyone knows where you can get some. Its worth a shot ya know. Just a thought i had.
21:04 JESUS IT'S A MURDER HORNET!!!
@White knight TigerPaw Jenkins lol that's pretty good. Maybe they are the ones trying to clone Jonny's clone of the mk262. And probably checking the serial number on that can
I think the Black Hills is just a different batch of Sierras. I have 4 different lot numbers and they do vary from lot to lot.
I was able to get a consistent 2630fps with 25.5gr of cfe223 and a 16” barrel. Worked the load up to 26gr but haven’t chrono’ed ‘‘em yet.
I know that you have a goal...and i'm only beginning this series, hopefully you found it. But I'd explore the .226 group. I'll take accuracy over velocity any day.
when you were talking about bumping the shoulder just a “couple thou”; just curious if it was 2 thousands or did you go with 3?
Trigger Tech makes a trigger that is adjustable down to 2.5 pounds.
Hornady 75gr Match BTHP work great with Viht N-140.
I noticed that the boat tail on the Black Hills is different from the Nosler. It looks to match up with the Sierra though.
I know you have a ton of irons in the fire, but are you thinking at some point building an LR-308?
CFE223 is my powder of choice when I go heavy. Loads nice and shoots clean.
The Lyman data gives the max charge of CFE 223 as 24.4 grains for .223 Rem. I wonder if that will shoot well for me in a 16-inch barrel...I'm gonna load some up.
Hodgdon Reloading Center lists 24.3 grains / CFE-223 as Maximum @ 2811 fps from a 24" barrel.
Hi Johnny, following this series of testing I am guessing Bob's Bullets is not for tight target shooting.
Here is a FUN bullet to duplicate I would love to see some data, any data on the M855A1 EPR . I am new to your channel and New to reloading. Your channel is godlike to me. Thank you...
I have REM 7 1/2 benchrest primers and they don't have that orange-ish color on the inside like your black hills primers do
How are you shooting from the prone...
I see a bipod on front, do you have rear pod, or bags, or a vise?
Look into TriggerTech Adaptable AR Primary Trigger its adjustable down to 2.5lbs
CFE 223 is very temperature sensitive powder - how much? A video idea?
Army should be developing an mk262 type clone with a steel penetrator tip like the m855a1. Very noticeable difference in effective range and energy between a 55 and 62gr vs a 75 or 77 gr bullet
You know, you would think a half pound trigger would be nice... I have two Remington 700's with tuned triggers set at 18oz, and I find they pop sooner than I'd like. Maybe it's just me, I think 2.5lbs would be perfect.
It looks to me like the Nosler and Sierra had a baby and what came out was the Black Hills 77 😁
CFE 223 safe reloading powder I could not get enough to match factory 5.56 m193. 27.5 grains still 100 fps shy. You going to need 26gr to hit your mark.
25gr CFE 223 & CCI #400 Primer: Velocity Average = 2682 fps, SD = 19, My CMMG AR15 20" .223 WYLDE 1/8 Twist, MAS Defense LLC, STRAIGHT FLUTED CHROME MOLY BARREL
Dragon, I'm running a Rock River ATH v2 18" barrel. Hodgdon CFE 223 25.0gr, Lake City brass, CCI small rifle primers, Sierra 77gr. Matchking BTHP, C.O.A.L. 2.260. Velocity 2669.3 average with 2683 high. Std:12.3 Spread: 24.
This at around 82 degrees. Being a ball powder
have you noticed how temperature sensitive CFE 223 is?
@@kentuckywindage222 I use the Sierra 77gr TMK and Lake City Brass. I haven't looked for Temperature sensitivity, sorry.
Shooters World "Match" shows to be at the same point as A2520 on the burn chart. That would be an interesting powder to try for this MK262 test.
I need to order a sample of their powders sometime. I would like to try their blackout powders also.
HCNFAN
I've tried there tactical rifle powder with my 55gr. plinking loads. Works very well, may need to get the match powder and try it next.
👍👍👍
This is what i use! Anyways this is a tremendously awesome video series. Any thoughts on a m118lr video series?
That sounds like it might be fun. I happen to have a 500pc box of 175gr Match Kings on hand. :)
Here's a good write up for anybody not familiar with the round. I had to do some reading! www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/
Funny, I just read the same article. I am using Nosler Custom Competition 175gr for my "copy" loads for that one. I am having problems getting 2600fps with them.
Is that press supposed to flex everytime you seat the round?
have your experimented with Winchester WSR
What is the gizmo that's on your calipers? I cannot find one.
I ream my bullet comparator bushing to 219. I do all my bushing
with in 5 thousands of max bullet size..
What's everyone's tjoyght one cfe223 with heavy bullets in 556. I have a 16"bbl 1/7twist. Has anyone been having good luck with that powder and 75gr bthp Hornady. Any help is great bullets
try plastic reinforcement rings for louse leaf binders,
*except loose for "louse"
Are those groups at 100 yards?
So Johnny what happened to 22 nosler? I have no need for the data but it's good entertainment!
My money is on Sierra!
FANTASTIC!!!
What is your barrel twist
How do you bump your shoulders?
Subscribed and I don't even reload.... yet