The State of Heterodoxy, David Fuller & Meghan Daum
Vložit
- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- This is a conversation that was originally posted on Meghan Daum's 'Unspeakable' podcast as 'Talking Sense Into Sensemakers'.
David and Meghan talk about their shared history exploring the 'heterodox' space over the last years, and their impressions of what needs to come next.
Unspeakable podcast: www.theunspeakablepodcast.com/
If you have never been in cancel space, with your self image and your livelihood at stake, you would probably not appreciate the enormous battle one must go through to remain sane and rational while not falling prey to paranoia and/or conspiracy theories. A surface dismissal of that journey may indicate wilfully blindness and/or confirmation blindness. Go deeper.
Very well said.
This is great, but the audio disparity between Megan's audio being so much louder than David's, which I can't tell if it's that her voice is naturally louder or just the way it's mixed but she almost sounds like she's shouting and I have to turn down my volume when she talks lol
Likewise.
It's a technical problem and could soon be ironed out if there's a will for it.
The woman's voice is incredibly loud compared to David and is also distorting. Must turn her voice down to match David and perhaps EQ her voice so it's not so sharp sounding from the distortion. I don't think I can listen to this until they re-upload the video with better audio. Sorry to sound uptight. This is definitely on the top of my list of things to listen to but depending on how I set my volume David is either not loud enough or she's excruciatingly loud and piercing. I love Rebel Wisdom!
The woman's voice is incredibly loud compared to David and is also distorting. Please turn her voice down to match David and perhaps EQ her voice so it's not so sharp sounding from the distortion. I don't think I can listen to this until you re-upload the video with better audio. Sorry to sound uptight. This is definitely on the top of my list of things to listen to but depending on how I set my volume David is either not loud enough or she's excruciatingly loud and piercing. Thank you- I love Rebel Wisdom!
50:45 that's not true at all, being cancelled is not losing subscribers because you offended them in some way, is other people who don't know about you mass flagging you so that your account get's banned permanently, and so most of your audience can't support you even if they want to. And that's not just about losing access to youtube or the like, but to much indispensable things like paypal or visa.
Sam Harris has not been captivated by his audience - he often antagonises it - is reasonably self-reflective and yet has barely changed his mind on any major issue. Our minds being impervious to change runs deeper than we might think. I'm not sure we understand change. Or why we are attracted by polar thinking in absolutes. Absolutist thinking actually feels good. You get quite a rush. Some take it to be a direct call from god. Really messy territory.
I don't think they said Sam Harris was "captivated" by his audience. I think they said "captured" by his audience, as in he panders to what they want to hear because his livelihood is dependent on them remaining as subscribers/listeners. His audience may enjoy an occasional slight disagreement with his views but, they wouldn't stick around if his views changed too much.
@@Aviatorshades101 You're right, I used the wrong term, "capture" is the right one. Still Sam himself claims to feel free to say whatever he wants.
Any linear thinkers/ideologues look for and are susceptible to more -isms.
Absolutist thinking _sometimes_ feels good. Let's not get carried away...
:]
What's fascinating is that it's become rebellious to criticise the IDW types, and the decoding the gurus guys basically shit-can everything to the point where it's a requirement to just accept the mainstream media narrative, which is just a bizarre place to land. I guess the fear generated by the pandemic is partly to blame, it's terrifying to face that kind of disaster outside of the comfort given by swallowing the mainstream narrative whole. The heterodox critique has swallowed itself and rebelled out of existence.
"...swallowed itself and rebelled out of existence.'' You bring to mind what seems to have happened to Post-modernism as well, it reached the ends of its logic, turned around and started consuming its own. Spiral Dynamics and Wilber's Integralism both warned us that the next step would be much harder... instead of simply reacting to the existing or previous paradigm, we will need to synthesize it. Few seem ready and able to make such a move, whether they're in the Post-Mod or Heterodox space.
I like the honest take on Peterson by David. Everyone is either in love with him or hates him which I get. I still feel Jordan made a good point 5 years ago that has been lost in the shuffle.
David, do you know of Angel Eduardo? His short essay "How to Star-Man | Arguing from Compassion" (CFI: Feb. 10, 2021) seems like something you'd appreciate. He's the co-host of FAIR's "FAIR Perspectives" podcast. I'm pretty darn sure you'd appreciate his writing (his ideas, ideals).
Great conversation! Food for thought!
"Taking yourself seriously is a real crime in Britain" !!
Wonderful conversation, love the distillation!
I appreciate the convo but the interviewer and david are not in the league of the jp, Weinsteins, harris.. or close to the sensemaking crowd like genius Daniel Schmachtenberger. You guys need to produce content with them with good questions. Cmon u praise self awareness- then should recognize you're not A players.. it's to facilitate good content for the A players..
maybe you should question what puts someone in that "league". being maximally persuasive can run counter to being a faithful rationalist, and I think Fuller is at least as rational as some of your examples, if not far more so. I'm not going to get into the details (though Fuller alludes to some) but there are serious problems with some of the arguments made by some of the individuals on your list. maybe they are in a different league in terms of view-counts but they are not in a different league with respect to reasoned thinking.
Great conversation, great people
I love Jordan Peterson and I'm still glad you're happy to criticise him, I don't think he's audience captured personally I think he just seems to be biased to the right from the start for me
I think he plays for audience capture, he's great in some things, like mythology and jungian psychology, but he likes to mess around with things that he doesn't know much about but he knows his fan base will cheer for him regardless of what he says; well not regardless of what he says, with a tendency to provide a quasi christian conservative framing. He has become a reactionary ideologue, he had a profound message at the beggining but he's not learning anymore,I see someone like John Vervaeke evolving in a more interesting way than Peterson, involving in genuine theologos with people from many fields. This video captures the dark side evolution of Peterson's Personality after he became a quasi celebrity czcams.com/video/uWXxlYzBCno/video.html
More conservative with a small c than right wing. but personal view
@@callummilburn8204 I'd agree thats more accurate
The bias argument is naïve. Without biases we have no where to stand. Also the "right" is made up of nothing more than modern conservatives and traditional liberals.
@@vangoghsear8657 I meant he just leans conservative because of his philosophy if you like and that at least in the political sense he's not audience captured, I just worded badly
Meghan's point about the relationship between an experience of cancellation and conspiratorial thinking was very insightful. Had never considered but rang true.
The intro is a mystery to me, above my head - but I’ll keep listening
I thought it was some sort of inside joke I wasn't getting.
About a third of the way though, haven't watched the whole thing yet.
17:50 Why is it that JP's fault? At what point do we say "we've tried, but these woke people are genuinely insane and we can no longer spend time trying to negotiate if they are going to continue to act like spoiled children." Why is so much of this about JP anyways? You had other figures on the right that were contributing to way more polarity than JP ever did. Why can't they be held more accountable? I suppose the argument there is that the IDW was a break from all that. Fair enough. But JP never went so far in the direction of obvious conspiratorial thinking. He took a centrist stance on the Brett Kavanaugh debacle. Much of his own audience roasted him for that. He never bought into the idea that the Biden election was rigged. Almost everyone on the right did. JP has stuck to his guns.
So much faith is put into him in this corner of the internet. The changes I've seen in him have been justified by the continued threats of radical left wing authoritarianism. Until this woke hydra no longer holds sway, then I will take the "audience capture" arguments with a good dose of salt.
I consider JP to be very much a centrist. He's always perplexed that he's being labelled *on the right *
JP had always been a conspiratorial jackass. It’s just easier to see now that his anxiety riddled depressive nature along with the effects of his drug addiction has shown the world what he always looked like to me. Sorry, some of us live in red America and it ain’t the wokes who are the threats to us. Combine that with the far right wing Christian controlled Supreme Court and it’s the woke obsessed people who now look ridiculous. They have straight forward conspiratorial addled brains who now look as crazy as they always have been, especially to those of us in red America looking at the extreme right social agenda being legislated across the country.
Lots of people can finally see what was plain to those of us not obsessed with the moral panic about the evil wokes.
Exactly!!! David (as has been pointed out so many times before) is blinded by his own ego and trying to save face in some way with his insistence on pandering to statist thinking and trusting the paid for science and shitty logic that goes along with that kind of thinking.
I pop back on to this channel once in a while and sadly every time its the same old David been a bit self deluded.
@Angelo Balbi
Australia has a *two party prefered* dominance. Those two are Liberal (conservative and classical liberals) and Labor (not sure what they stand for these days but it used to be a party of the working class). Now many so called independents are vying for power but I believe many are wolves in sheep's clothing as are some who have infiltrated the major parties. It used to be more simple once. 🙂
We often have the convenience of choosing our battles. Other times the battles choose us. In this situation one can either stand and fight or tuck tail & run. In Peterson’s words: “You pay a price either way. You’ll pay for every thing you do and every thing you don’t do.”
Those who want to improve and journey toward the light are stumbling uphill blindly. This is still a drastic improvement above those whom never began the journey.
It's strange, I have no problems with David taking people to task like Dave Rubin and Bret Weinstein, in fact I appreciate it. Whilst I agree it's disappointing when people isolate themselves from criticism by refusing to debate people who disagree with them, I'll still listen to them and judge what they say on a point by point basis. At the end of the day, all these people are trying to make a living in an entrepreneurial space, so there's going to be disingenuity and capture sometimes, when it suits their financial needs.
Never encountered this woman before, she's really good. I think very balanced yet still incisive.
In good faith can someone explain what is meant by ‘audience capture’?
...Iike when Hitler was in the beer houses early days giving speeches - the words and tones and mannerisms that created the most reaction and emotion from the crowd was repeated and amplified, and so "Hitler" as we know him was moulded as much by his audience as he was by his own internal drives and character....? (discuss) :)
@@socraticsceptic8047 that’s a great reply, thank you
@@socraticsceptic8047 the ‘discuss’ part is a bit of a challenge, I guess the only question I have is this. Does the speaker capture the audience or does the audience capture the speaker?
@@peterweston1356 hmm I guess if the audience is large then the audience captures or leads the speaker I would say (in general)... some comedians seem to hold the audience in the palm of their hands but they have to be funny so they are a slave to that imperative...
If a speaker has an audience of only one or two then isnt it a whole different dynamic?
Meghan is an outstanding interviewer
David sounds like someone caught up in a web of his own making. If all one does is look at what's wrong with the word then how can that be motivating? I went on a journey of self discovery during my twenties and eventually created an identity I was healthy and happy with. I think it is telling that David laughs at Americans taking themselves too seriously but I think there is more than a bit of projection there.
What does it specifically mean that Jordan Peterson specifically has the issue of audience capture?
This is the only place where they still talk about the IDW...
I think there is a consistency in comment that those who listen but don't comment relate to that ensures longevity to try to react or even not react inserts your base values and listeners are not really interested in that
Let your ideas flow
Douglas Murray mentioned seriously kind of breaks the spell here.
And "Hetrodox 2.0" kicked it into touch
What's the problem with Douglas Murray? Oh he's the C word? . . Conservative? 😱
@@elizabethkajet5501 he is definitely a C word.
As long as you are told lies, there is now way of making sense of anything.
I have been a fan of many of the discussions and ideas on rebel wisdom. But one thing that bothered me that was really crystallized on this discussion is the dismissal of Jordan Peterson. So much to say on this. I like to think I’m someone who is open to disagreements. And I thought rebel wisdom was about discussion and discussion and making sense of different ideas. So I’m so confused with the casual dismissal of JBP without a discussion and explanation or examples. I mean JP continues to put out incredible intriguing discussions and content. The audience capture argument is only an argument ( the way I understand) if the content can be argued with. Would love to hear the counter argument and try to understand better what rebel wisdom is trying to get out.
PLEASE WATCH YOUR AIDIO LEVELS
PLEASE WATCH YOUR SPELLING!!!! 😜
David, good conversation.
Paradoxically the answer seems to lie in understanding these issues oneself and not as a group . Can't square that circle myself ! An algorithm might be the answer ?
The entire idea behind "Debate" is for the best ideas to prevail through rational and reasonable discourse. To say "I don't like to (or won't) debate" is to suggest "I am certain I'm correct, therefor there is no need to debate". Calling out people as "edge lords" (as is the current common parlance generally from the woke and/or authoritarian Progressive Left) in order to dismiss their views and thus the requirement for debate, adds a level of bad faith to the claim that debate should not be a requirement, because the socially acceptable outcome has already been decided by those in the intellectually elevated "In-crowd".
Debate is win/lose, people beating on each other. Debate creates emotions hence clicks. A real open sharing of views through skilled conversation or open dialogue can lead to learning by all participants -win/win. I hope Rebel Wisdoms new workshops lead to more productive conversations for us all.
@@fredroberts2614 Not necessarily. Discourse can be debate masked in softened rhetoric, yet still remains a debate in order to distill the best ideas to the surface. Even their "discourse" in this segment is point/counter-point debate when dissected.
@@merlepatterson Good point! I think the softening of the rhetoric can maintain the necessary openness in a conversation. Ultimately, I believe we (I) need to acquire skills to enhance the learning of all participants in a conversation . Ordinary conversation in our culture seems to often have the underlying framework of debate. Can we replace the need to win with the joy of sharing perspectives and learning from each other?
@@fredroberts2614 The "need to win" is a fundamental genetic trait in human beings and goes to competition for food, shelter, reproductive rights, etc. It will find its way into conversation without question, the problem isn't so much to eliminate the need to win, but to dampen the effects of feeling the sensation of shame or humiliation for not being right.
I too have noticed a similar pattern of behaviour of the many who have been cancelled, de-platformed, fact checked or disrespectfully and poorly debunked, or faced significant professional challenge based on their 'whistle blower' or heterodox positions. As a trauma therapist, this pattern is familiar to me, seen when the stakes are high. Covid and the vaccines have presented very high stakes, particularly for scientists unfamiliar and unprepared for the public roles they have found themselves in. I like the way David has expressed his regret at positioning himself and putting skin the game. It is true that he depleted his 'sense making' position by seemingly shifting his agenda and removing his neutrality at a time when enriching and promoting shared sense making was so vitally important. I was very disappointed when he shared his vaccination status publicly at a time when people globally were horrified that their personal information had become so public and their human rights diminished. I respect him more for sharing his personal realisation of this and his regrets at having done so.
This is a rambling and pointless conversation that tells me nothing I don't really know. But I will check out Meghan's podcast.
What does authenticity mean in your context when regarding edgelords? It just seems this word was made to just do away with authenticity in the first place. At least when it comes to blunt dissent or rebellion against the world powers that be.
Were the Sex Pistols just edgelords? Was Kurt Cobain just an edgelord? Was all that underground art and music of the 20th century just created by edgelords? How can we make the claim of being an edgelord when we don't even have a decent framework to critique it in? I'm posing this because it comes off as a shallow remark. There is a point that the people on the edge get more offended, but only to a point. Hasn't it always been this way?
I don't see the right-leaning alternative media space filled with people who lack a conscience. The left-leaning media space is limping along, continually getting consumed by the next tier of political radicalism and this has been on going for near a decade now.
Who exactly has become conspiratorial? Are you referring to Bret? He's been right about almost everything.
Jordan is the classic example of audience capture ?! Hahahahaha
Yeah, I'd be curious to see David give some concrete examples of what he means when he says the so-called IDW has fallen into audience capture. How does one even avoid that as a content creator on some level? It might be inevitable
@@crakhaed I mean isn't a channel with a focus going to remain in their niche?
He’s coming across as really butt-hurt and displaying what sounds like extremely petty jealousies over the IDW and my God talk about horrible reads on things saying the BBC is a neutral central ground organization that’s good for English conversations (paraphrasing of course) or discourse is absolutely delusional! He’s in an Extreme Center Leftists/21st century Liberal Bubble and one who suffers from extreme Trump derangement syndrome as was witnessed in his interview of Konstantin Kissin(spelling?) whereby Konstantin dealt with it like a champ. Also his “concern trolling” over Brett and Heather makes me want to just shake him and say “snap out of it man!!!” And Do some ACTUAL RESEARCH rather than taking your info from Pfizer Funded organizations!,, Sheesh
You, my friend, are the type of person he was talking about. Are you blind? Bret is wrong about almost everything. Jordan has become just another right wing pundit. Boring meat for the base. He is on repeat now. He is just milking you guys.
@@martinzarathustra8604 milking me for what?
Nice one RW. Love Megan too.
Great discussion.
🤔Jordan Peterson is serious but also does self deprecation too 🤷♂️
My dissidence opposes heterodoxy
Balance your audio
Schizophrenic is a break from reality, I think BiPolar would be a more accurate term to use
Finding truth in this climate is no joke. It’s good to be wary of anyone who is too sure of themselves. I like to use David’s podcast to check my biases because I know I’m full of them. It’s become too painful for people to hear a different opinion - which indicates a staggering failure of our education systems. And/or our psychological/religious systems. We MUST relearn how to engage with the other side and David is bravely charting this empty void between the separating tectonic plates. I think he’s cool.
`personal growth` makes me cringe
From a group think and empowerment lens, as technology forces one up the mountain of responsibility, one transcends being mindful to spiritually present, a subject of mastering intention for perception control via a non- separation from source prism, as one can't be responsible if not present. Thus the only thing left to teach the right is that the only true sin is to purposely teach separation from source. As such, we will realize the mirror effect and bridge the gap of knowledge and teach kids that they choose their parents, sex and local - as non local awareness in holographic free space / free will. in the truth and consequences game nature presents and then come to realize that at the top we pretend we are not emanating from - giving the infinite a pity party is beneath us - by intention.
"Off-track", Ok gate-keeper
Why you are doing - what you are doing? The future is dark very dark in fact and that's OK. When the black armored knight will appear just run and it will be all game over.
Once again, David promotes the theory that the IDW has been "captured" by its audience without providing an ounce of proof or even many examples. Is it not possible that the figures in this movement have genuinely held views that may conflict with your own? Are you going to continue to attempt to grab attention by critiquing them without basis or proof? Or are you going to start generating your own ideas? I used to enjoy this channel, but lately it has become a whine-fest by less successful content creators who resent their betters...
Weinstein and Ivermectin. the inability of some to admit that the experts were right on this. Weinstein and others were making tons of money promoting their anti-vaccine theories that were literally killing people, and their doubling down (audience capture and incentive structure) got so pathetic that Weinstein's owner brother was publicly calling him out on it.
@@TomsDone Again, NO PROOF.. It seems to be an epidemic among the supporters of this channel. Fairly sad, since it purports to be about "sense-making". Let's face it: you're all just Leftists who have decided to swallow whatever your tribe is selling you regarding Covid and any facts to the contrary are disconcerting to you. Bret comes armed with facts. You come armed with emotions and epithets. You'll never win that way.
To think that Bret, Heather, JP and other IDWers cannot contribute positively to the dialog is absurd. Me thinks your search for certitude severely limits the breadth of information you acquire. The complexity of the issues we are facing (eg covid) dictate that we stay open to information until we are somehow compelled to converge on a decision. Even then we should monitor the the pertinent information lest we need to change our views.
@@fredroberts2614 I completely agree with you. That's why the turn toward condemnation of Dark Horse, James Lindsay, and Dave Rubin is so disheartening. It appears that David has made his money and fame off interviewing them and now thinks he can continue a career by shooting darts at them, all because of partisan spite. Thinking people will demand more reasoning and evidence. His site will go the way of Quillete in due time. This audience demands logic and wisdom, not partisanship and sniping.
The assumption of bad faith is very interesting. The cynicism in these comments is in the exact tonal character of Brett from Darkhorse.
I'm surely not the only person to immediately pick up on the cadence.
There are many things David didn't give examples of, all of them annoying but he is clearly the real deal.
Those others have some major personality flaws. Shall I document them for you like I used to when I actually thought internet denizens could be saved from themselves?
You already know. Everyone knows.
I still follow Darkhorse and I'll listen to Lindsay cos I don't give a shit about Twitter drama. But these are massive egomaniacs. And David probably isn't and you know it. Just use your common sense. Look at the evidence.
Now just cos Brett and Heather are paranoid, doesn't mean the enemy isn't out to get them but they are paranoid, they are clearly cowards about criticism, they are far more irresponsible that Dave even alludes to.
I was there when Heather said she felt no responsibility for the guy who took their Ivermectin advice and died.
I'll never forget that. Never.
I was the first to say Darkhorse was captured but I don't have a platform. I watched the process. Again, examples, in the Comments Section? Be realistic. I watched it happen over time and I understood why before most people. I grew up in a cult, I know these things. The correct response is to grieve and let go. They have to find their own way out. I can't rescue them. I can't rescue you. I do this to remind myself of who I am.
She sounds like nails on a chalkboard!...
Peterson is religiously insane or he's liking the control over people. We know the history of religion, but Peterson, seems to not know or is a grade-schooler in that area.
All JK Rowling is saying is that gender politics has become a fucking bore. 🌈🦉
The problem for so many Americans is that thinking is not macho. 🤔
The woke hurt Bret & Heather's pride. 🤕
A feminist lover made me feel like an accessory. 👜To see her I had to make appointments.
What does "heterodox two point O" mean? Is it a secret service thing? 😵💫
Hang in there, David!
Considering this man offers courses in how to speak, i feel he must have missed some. Jagged similes nonsense jargon and the most fractured, hastily cut and paste sentences, delivered with the grace of a dodgy old dial up modem.
David, I enjoy much of the work you do, but your own thinking isn't anywhere near as deep and sophisticated as those you engage. Less of you and more of the thought leaders
True.. hes a slightly above intelligence with a good amount of self awareness. It has value, but he cant contain my interest without having guest that are very high level in their field. Which is why this whole video is him tr talking about other thinkers. I dont want his analysis. I want him to do his journalism thing and get them on and ask them good questions. Cmon david.. use that self awareness
He doesn't have any throw away aphorisms and takes a bit of time to get things out - but this is probably the only show where he has had a little space to put a marker down. I suspect he would agree with your wishes however.
Oh dear, if anyone takes himself seriously it's you David. I don't understand your obsession with IDW, especially as it doesn't even exist any more. You're still trying to justify your own fall out with them... you've finally lost me due to your own ego around it...
You can’t accept magical thinking and the utter nonsense of spirituality just because life is meaningless and is brutal to all sentient beings. I wish I could lie to myself to believe in some cosmic purpose but I can’t ignore the sufferings in this gloomy, scary and pointless universe. Nihilism is toxic but necessary. I don’t want to fix anything and those who think they have the solutions are silly. We are all doomed.
why did you write this comment? need a friend? we can chat if you want.
@@acuerdox Hi Nico. Sure. I watched you video. I love painting.
@@artelc woops, nevermind that.
Hilarious how irrelevant this channel has become. I guess you reap what you sew. I miss the old Rebel Wisdom, too bad David is no longer capable of taking the channel in that direction.
David, stop talking about Jordan Peterson. He can tell you only what he knows and what he knows is confined within his limited experiential understanding as to why we, as humans are failing in cultivating higher stages of emotional and psychological development. He unconsciously uses others as a vehicle to express his own unresolved pain as when he cries i.e. projection. As I believe Gabor Mate rightly said, Peterson has a lot of unresolved pent up anger. Because of this, I do not take Peterson seriously as he also has the tendency to spread himself out thin by publicly addressing issues that are, as he would say, outside his domain.
If you want real transforming content, I humbly suggest you take a trip to see Dr. Steven James Bartlett. I'll even donate $50 to help you see him for a 2 or 3 hour interview about his book *Normality Does Not Equal Mental Health: The Need to Look Elsewhere for Standards of Good Psychological Health* Here is an excerpt on what he said about how we lost the spirit of creativity and our sincere desire to seek the truth of things. Says he,
*_The fortitude and obduracy of systems of belief are their strength but also their downfall. Conservative thinking-adherence to and defense of conventions that are dominant at any particular time-therefore automatically brings with it a limited field of vision and a self-chosen myopia. If any blame can he laid for periods of slowed, nonexistent, or retrograde intellectual and scientific development, for periods of uncreative, sluggish, and at times imperceptible growth, that blame can be placed both on the natural human unwillingness to call into question beliefs that apparently have served well enough in the past and on the deeply entrenched disinclination nation to step outside of the preferred category set. Individuals who are willing to do these things tend to be few, and they should expect to meet correspondingly deeply rooted resistance, which of course indeed they have throughout the past. As a consequence of the psychology of belief, when we look at the history of science we see that its most basic concepts and presuppositions are often the least examined. They form the basis for all else in scientific thought, so that in their very mental activity scientists make habitual use of them. This results in it being all the more intellectually difficult and challenging to place them in the light of day. Since they serve as the fundamental core conceptual vocabulary of scientific thought, they resist critical examination, because for a scientist to do this, he or she believes, often incorrectly, that those very concepts and presuppositions must he used_*
Jordan Peterson will never tell you this because he *does not know*
more 6th form student worship of the ridiculous Jordan Peterson ... fell sorry for this guy, he seems a bit lost !
uh..Fuller released a lengthy video critiquing Peterson; not sure why you use the word "worship"