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How To Attach A table Top To Frame Or Legs
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
- Wood Movement Video: • What is Wood Movement ...
Dining room Tabletop attachment: • Connecting the Base to...
Dresser Top Attachment: • Hand Tool White Oak Dr...
Pocket holes: • How To Make a Hand Cut...
Sliding dovetails: • How To Make a Sliding ...
Figure 8 Clips: amzn.to/3nFjCMn
What are traditional methods for attaching a Tabletop to the base? or is there a traditional way to attach a top to a frame?
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James: There are 1000's of different ways
Me: Got it! Velcro and zip ties it is!
Lol
I love how excited you got at your antique pocket pole bit😅 My dad gets the same look an his face when talking about his bonsai
The other major method would be L-shaped blocks screwed to the underside of the top, that fit into grooves cut in the aprons. It's a lot like the figure 8 approach, but it's wood instead of metal and slides instead of twists.
This is the method I often use. It has worked very well for me over the years.
That's the way I do it too.
A lot of people really like those. I've had several bad experiences with him though. I find them to break easily and I just found them to be less appealing to me in general. But that's just my personal opinion. Lots of great woodworkers love using buttons.
You are the best for a diy person, female with a small budget and most experience came from looking at wood, thinking about what May or may not work. I had to go to the library several times before the internet became common. All the learning I taught myself. I never came across such a simple to understand lesson in wood expansion. I bolt a huge kitchen island to serve as my craft table, storage for my crafts as well as or kitchen table. We were in a narrow townhouse with a long narrow kitchen without storage. After I built it. I realized if we needed to move one day ( I wasn’t leaving my diy island) I had to replace the top with a removable option to fit trough a doorway. I put it on and put finish nails all around the top, wood putty and stained it natural pine, but a few months later. It kept cracking on the far edges. Now I know why! On my own I figured ot if I replace it with a huge piece of heavy thick maple. Gravity would work and it could be lifted off when I moved. My husband was never so happy when he had to move my monster size island and measured the top to tell me “ this has to stay! It won’t fit trough the doorway”
Surprise! I lifted the top up and said
“ it’s removable” he thought he’d leave my hard work behind😃 now I want to build a farmhouse kitchen island for my dining room and I find your channel and couldn’t be more happy. Yo make it simple, easy to understand and since I can’t afford huge deluxe table saws or the know how to use one. I can use your simple ways to work around my problems of diy wood building! You have no idea some of the ideas I came up with while learning to build cabinets without any internet. Not so good after a few years of use! Like nails with shims to attach🤔🫣cracked wood everywhere as well as sharp nails popping out everywhere! I’m so happy I came across your channel! Thank you
I’ll be learning a lot from you
I love figure 8s and z-clips in a slot for attaching table tops, or dowels.
Also, the wood on wood slides are great for drawers. I tend to go that route.
A few years ago I rescued an old solid wood wardrobe from being burned. It was in a really bad state having been left outside in the rain for a few weeks as well as having various holes cut in it but I wanted it mainly for the wood in the frames. As I started taking it apart I found that the top and bottom were joined to the frames with pocketholes exactly as you described. No 'special' screws, just regular big heavy slot head ones. Looking at the hardware etc I reckon it was probably about 60-70 years old.
One of your best videos with a little more of your humor than usual. It is a given that any thing involving people will quickly evolve into a scattering of cliques, each with there own opinions as to what is proper. Woodworking is no different. I have used several of your suggestions, even a dovetail one but I agree it is a lot of work. I did try a segmented dovetail setup on a 48" wide table top that worked okay with good results.
Sliding dovetails are one of my favorites; a lot of work, but worth the work.
And the middle doesn't need to be perfect!
One of the ones I used recently were dowels, unglued, drilled through the top at a slight angle, and driven into the top of the legs. Basically it turns the dowels into a set of nails. I saw Peter Follansbee use it on his joint stool. Also, Phil Lowe used it on a Queen Anne Low Boy replica. I figured it would work well enough the shop furniture I was making.
Figure 8's are incredibly versatile. You can use them in a multitude of applications.
I just made a desk and I thought long and hard about using pocket holes simply by how easy it is to do. Eventually I decided to use wooden cleats with a slotted hole instead. It's basically a small square block about the size of a table button with a slot that lets a screw slide around with wood movement. The wooden blocks are then glued to the aprons.
Really liked the pragmatic approach. Cheers.
Another good way to attach tops to the base is by using wooden buttons fox dovetailed into the top. The "L" shape of the buttons firmly attach into the top but are given wiggle room in the aprons or sides.
For me, it’s relaxing to make wooden buttons and cut the mortises by hand, so I like this method. You do have to be mindful that those small buttons can split, so consider the material and size. Also, if you are likely to pick up the piece by it’s top, that puts a fair bit of stress in the buttons, so maybe avoid it for a big dining room table.
I built my first table and used screws to attach the top to the frame. I was in doubt about this until now. Thanks.
Last project I put a long screw through the frame into the top. I oversized the hole in the shank portion on the frame and the screw can move along with the movement of the wood.
That's what I do 😊
Fantastic, James! Thanks a lot for all the tips! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
never had a problem with hardware until i lived long enough to see how it fails every single time, (even if you were flawless with installation and treat it like an heirloom.) over the 200+ year lifespan of solid wood, joinery repairs are easy but with hardware rot it becomes a "restoration" project that takes longer than the original full build. it's why i only find good lumber but hardware damaged curb wood and never a single joinery piece ... except the 120-year-old dovetail drawer boxes still solid and usable.
Awesome video James. Answered a lot of questions I’ve had in the past.
Lots of common sense and counterintuitive, very interesting
I have been looking at this specific topic lately, thank you for covering it! Great timing and content (as always).
Thanks man. My pleasure and congrats on first.
Seconded! Thank you!!!!!
Good video look forward to seeing more like it. Keep up the good work.
Really enjoy your videos! Thanks
I don’t have anything against pocket holes aside from the looks. I’ve used them plenty and they serve their purpose well. I just prefer dowels where they might be seen to avoid the pocket hole scar on stain grade projects. On paint grade, a plug and some bondo and … voila! What pocket hole?
I did a Wiccan alter that required no metal other than gold silver or brass so I used side by side fowls near the center of the top width wise one each end so far about 3 months no issues but we’ll see
“Issues” There you are, skyclad on Saturday night, suddenly realizing a cold iron nail or two might have been handy just in case…
Kidding, of course. Well done being so specific about what goes into your craft and your Craft
I just built an aquarium tank stand for a relative and attached the top with wood buttons! Maybe overkill considering it’s a 100-gallon tank, might have been better off using your locator pin method and saved me a half hour 😂
Building a 7ft x 3.5ft x 2.5 think table now using the cut off from the top for one leg and another similar size piece for the other let and I like the locating pins personally for a piece like that
Another thing: the lengthwise (parallel with the grain) aprons cannot be solidly attached to the underside of the tabletop either, as the top will either be pushing or pulling on them as it expands and contracts possibly causing cracks in the center of the table. In that case, Z clips or buttons attached to the bottom of the tabletop that can move into and out of a groove in the aprons are the best way to prevent the table from bowing in the middle.
Good ideas.
I have used z clips that screw to top and slip into a groove cut in the skirt board.
I think the problem with pocket holes is they went from being unique attachment Hardware that was right for certain scenarios, but then people started using them for EVERYTHING, especially in places where it was not only unnecessary but also the poorest choice of joint simply because it's easy & hidden. That's when they began to take on a very negative and amateur connotation, so now most skilled woodworkers avoid them like the plague.
Great Video James!
👍👍😎😎😃😃 Cool!!! Thanks James!!!
So that is an antique pocket hole bit? I inherited a few of them and honestly didn't know what they were for. I think I'll go play with them again. Thanks for the knowledge.
Honestly I hate screws. Not because I am a joinery elitist (though, honestly, whats cooler than being able to say you don't need screws because you have skills?) but because I hate having to run out and grab more "stuff".
Also I've had WAY more screws strip out of holes than I've had joinery fail. I don't blame the screws but I've never over-torqued a draw bore. I did "under" torque one once, in a manner of speaking 🤦♂️🤷♂️
Top notch video
Great information!!!
Hey man, I've been thinking quite hard for my project in tables and found this video...
But I want to know your recommendations, can you help me?
1. My project is a shop project (a router table) made out of MDF and plywood
2. I have no access to pocket hole jig and figure 8 clips to use (I'm on a budget and limited by tools, so please go easy on me)
3. I may use glue to finalize the table to make it stronger after I get used to the table.
So by my observation, the best way I can possibly do is with table skirts or aprons, right? Or do you have something else ine mind?
Thanks before!
If you don't want to use screws straight through the top and down into it then this is the method I would use.
I am planning on using stretcher plates to attach my farmhouse table
0:10 reverse click bait? 😂 Nice one, James!
When using pins or dowells to as a way to secure table top should you slightly oversize the holes?
Yes. As in that case gravity is just holding it.
Super helpful. Now do bottoms of boxes.
for clarification, i’m a beginner - so you don’t need to attach the legs specifically to the top? just the apron? i’m thinking of doing the pocket hole method.
yes. traditionally the legs and apron are on piece and the top is attached to the apron.
Brilliant! Merci!
What do you think about the idea of using biscuits to connect top to skirt?
That would not be a good choice. Biscuits are not structural and would easily break under the load. Also, because they don't have compression force, they're not very good for wood glues. Biscuits are intended for alignment, not for structural strengths. But that being said, if they are on the stretchers going with the grain of the top then they would work. But I wouldn't use them on the stretchers going across the grain as the wood needs to expand and contract. Biscuits would not allow that.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Yeah that's what I meant, on the stretchers :)
Thanks for getting back to me and letting me know :)
Also, thanks for not being like some youtubers and using an overload of jump cuts and an over use of humour. It was nice to see a video such as yours simply address the issue :)
Parabéns já deixei o meu like 👍👊👏🤝💯
Thanks for the great video! Is there a minimal width of the top under which the problem with wood expansion will be neglectable? Specifically I am trying to make a live edge console table for which the top slab is around 40 cm (16 inches) wide walnut. Can I use a base constructed by four individual legs connected together by a second board some 15 cm/6in under the top (for example with half-lap joints) and then blind mortice and tenon the legs into the top? I understand that wood movement depends on the extent of the local changes in the humidity and the type of the wood used. Thanks in advance.
If it's being kept in an air conditioned house where there isn't a large humidity swing most 16-in wide boards will only expand and contract a 16th inch or less. But that can vary from wood species to wood species.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Thanks a lot
Awesome!!!
VERY helpful content, James! And I love your passion for the subject matter. By the way, you referred to a table’s “skirt”; is that the same piece as an apron? Thank you!
Yes same thing just different term.
I have a small bedside table I'm putting together, with a tabletop amounting to less than 1 inch in thickness. The tabletop is actually six narrow red gum boards laminated atop two victorian ash boards, with the grain for all running in the same direction. I laminated with Tite Bond III and epoxy. What kind of fixture would you recommend, given the complicated wood movement in this top?
I would do figure eight clips personally.
thanks
One question on using locater pins, if you were attaching a top less than 600lbs would using longer pins and attaching the pins to the top and having deep locater holes be a feasible solution?
Yes, the lighter weight top might have the ability to move horizontally creating sheer force on the pins (Hardwood pins?), but the deeper pins would make it less likely to move out of alignment if vertical force was applied.
That would work, but if the top were light then it is probably thinner. I generally will do this on any top over 1" thick.
James: Just made an end table and the top is herringbone on .5 inch plywood. Are there issues with expansion on the plywood base? Thank you for the great video! Barb
Herringbone often cracks over time. But it sounds like you're talking about veneer on plywood. In that case there's really an issue as long as it's not in a high humidity environment.
I used 1 x 4s pine lumber over 1/2 inch plywood @@WoodByWrightHowTo
Ya over time you will find cracks in between the planks. How bad depends on the humidity swings.
Here’s a question for you. Is it possible to completely seal the endgrain to stop moisture from penetrating or is it more of an osmosis type of penetration?
The only way to seal the wood is to seal it all the way around. You can encapsulate it and epoxy and that will stop the moisture absorption but it won't stop heat expansion. Water comes and goes from all sides not just the end grain It just happens to leave the end grain faster.
Sliding dovetails it will be! No way I'm gonna use screws! What about table top made of multiple boards with a frame around? How does it last? I always wonder. BTW a video of you showing off all of your accomplishments would be awesome, I liked having a glance at your furniture today :)
What do you mean with a frame all the way around? Are you talking about the skirt underneath? I have a few videos on several of the furniture pieces talking about how they're holding up after 2 or 3 years. Sorry I probably won't see a reply on here if you send me an email and be glad to answer directly.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I'm guessing they meant like a picture frame style perhaps?
how would you connect u-shape bench side legs (being the same width as bench top)?
if I use the sliding dovetail, ione end of the dovetail would be all the way at the edge.
tongue and groove?
lap joint?
On a bench top I would have the legs go up through the bench. That would give you the most strength. But yes, if you use a sliding dovetail it goes all the way through from one side to the other. So you can see it coming out the end.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo thanks!
so it's not a problem that the sliding dovetail would be very close to the edge of the top? the customer wants the waterfall bench, so probably she would rather see a miter joint. but she will be sitting 300-400 kg (660-880 lbs) of people on each bench (that is 3 people LOL)
oh I see what you are saying putting it on the end. I was thinking you meant it coming all the way to the front. in that case It would not be very strong there would not be much material to hold it you would need a bracket or brace to provide all the strength. the joint would just keep the boards together.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo yup. Thanks a lot. Probably I'll talk the client into just box joint with 1 tooth :)
Not sure about the vocabulary
Dowel and mortise? Dowel the center of the cross grain board to the top. Dowel and mortise the rest of the cross grain board. Use unglued joinery to loosely secure the cross grain board to the board going with the grain. Permanently bond the board going with the grain to the top. This way you don't have to use any screws or nails.
Sliding dove tail on a 3ft wide top, definite reason to use some electricity and a router ;-)
Hi, and thank you. I have a question. What if the table top made out of plywood? How does it affect the way you attach it to the frame?
it is the same thing, but I would not use a sliding dovetail there. figure 8 clips would be my favorite there.
Orientation of a wooden dowel fixes a cross grain well
Hey James, is this only necessary if the table top is only one board? Like, if I'm joining together a bunch of 2x4's to make a table top, then would I still need to worry about the table top expanding and contrasting as much?
You still need to consider expansion. Contraction. Even if you laminate them together, it now just acts as one very large board.
any vids on locating pins?
Specifically. And then in a couple dining room table builds.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo thanks bro
I'd love to use hardware but am afraid of using it on a iroko table for the balcony. Just dont wait to give moisture any extra option to attack wood.
then sliding dovetail is the way to go.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo thanks 😊
"Z" clips and slot.
I like table top buttons personally but who cares as long as the top is secure some way. No one who has seen any of my furniture has said….ugh, screws, how novice of you. For that matter, no one has ever really commented on my dovetails vs using easier forms of joinery,l. For heavier projects, like my Moravian bench, I also didn’t use anything except a few dowels to stop the top from moving back and forth.
"Your top will get wider and skinnier as the year progresses" Hey, you shut up. I am doing my best here.
I prefer buttons ( ‘L’ shaped pieces).
How about turn buttons?
A lot of people really love those.
If a person feels so strongly about screws, would a pocket hole and a dowel work?
The problem with a dowel is that it doesn't have a head. It needs to have a bit of a slop in the first board that goes through so that it connects solidly into the top. That slop will allow it to move around.
What about a screw combined with a dowel? You make a regular pocket hole with a screw and then plug it with a dowel so you can't see that there's a screw anymore.
I never understood why carpenters are against hardware
Do what you like
A lot of hardware is great, bit most end up being the week point in the project that will limit its life.
Z clips and figure 8 fasteners.
I think people dislike pocket holes because they always see them unplugged. Which I guess is ideal if you want to take it apart later, but if you want it to always exist as-is, then it seems kind of lazy not to just shove the dowel in and saw it off.
Draw bores seem as good as nails if someone really has to have it be all wood. Also, long sliding dovetails aren't that hard... with a router table. XD That's how most people make them ain't it?
70ed.
I made a pocket hole but then I decided it was time for change. And when I reached in, it had all fallen on the floor
Pocket holes are ok....... so long as ya dont use them to put EVERYTHING together, a lot of the time they are used to replace actual joinery 🤔😂
I use plywood XD
Screws are getting dearer. Loved the idea...just burn this modern chip board and mdf furniture and keep the screws
draw bore
Blue tac
Just gloo it down