Small Plane Flies UNDER 737 During Landing
Vložit
- čas přidán 18. 05. 2024
- Having a plane fly under you as you try to land as you can imagine creates a lot of problems.
Be Part of the 74 Crew:
IG: / 74gear
Twitter: / 74gear
Facebook: / 74gear
Flight Simulator Gear I use:
Yoke: geni.us/SimYoke
Computer: geni.us/GamingComputer
Flight Gear I use:
Aviation Headset: geni.us/AviationHeadset
Backpack: geni.us/PilotBackpack
Traveling headset: geni.us/DHheadset
Video Gear I use:
Camera: geni.us/VideoCamera
Action Camera: geni.us/Actioncamera
Flight Audio Connector: geni.us/FlightAudio
ND Filter: geni.us/NDFilter
I may receive a commission on some of these links but it will not change the price you pay for the items.
Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
0:10 - Pipeline Looking
06:08 - Caution Wake
08:13 - Resolution Advisory
15:00 - GO AROUND
18:23 - That Made No Sense
22:10 - Unable Long Landing
As a small plane owner and pilot. Over the years I have learned never to argue with a controller on the radio in a busy airport someone might have an emergency and cannot get on radio because you are on.
Yeah, it's not CB radios, it's AIRPLANES
@@michaelszczys8316 they cannot broadcast simultaneously on the same frequency.
Accidents have happened in the past because someone was talking to ATC while another pilot was broadcasting a message with important information.
@@nicholi2789 right. It's airplane flying business and not just CB radio covering each other up.
Gotta keep the air clear.
@@michaelszczys8316 gotcha I thought you were saying it couldn’t happen
Not a pilot but just in general, listen to the person with the most information unless you have a damn good reason not to.
Which is ATC.
My Dad designed the first onboard anti aircraft collision device that was patented. It never got produced (as a more state of the art one came along 6 months later), however the company he was working for at the time had paid him $5000 for full patent rights, which was enough to pay off our mortgage.
So listening to these videos about collision avoidance reminds me of my Dad puttering around in his workshop after dinner.
What a cool memory!
😂😂😅
That’s really sweet. What year about was that? (I’m not doubting you at all, I’m just trying to figure out that $5000 patent money in today’s figures). Honestly that’s really cool. Was your dad ever unhappy about the updated version that got used after he designed one? My hubby is a plumber and has been in touch with some patent lawyers about some ideas and found out that someone else had the same idea and beat him to it. 😂 BUT! He just got a phone call last week from a lawyer about an idea he submitted last year, so , fingers crossed! 🤞🏽 he’s recovering from surgery and not working right now so he could really use the win ❤️🩹🙏🏼🤩
@@aimeewank7859 It was the 60’s but before 68, so $5000 was enough to pay off our mortgage. I got to see my Dad on local PBS TV talking about it but I was less than 10.
I wish i could get a 5k mortgage
I' m a 400-hour hobby pilot who doesn't always fly as frequently as i'd like. A couple of weeks ago I wanted to get night-current since we're heading into fall/winter and the chance of flying a passenger friend into darkness increases. During my three take-offs and landings, there was an Embraer 175 regional jet inbound on a long final and the controller told me that I was cleared to land if I could turn base on the numbers and descend quickly. He also quickly added, "no stop/go, i'll need you to exit the runway immediately". I was already abeam the numbers at 1600 feet and I saw the Embraer coming in. I would have had to do a serious diving-turn. I hadn't flown in a while and wasn't sure I was up for the rushed challenge, so I told tower I had the Embraer in sight and asked for a right 360 turn instead. I think I made the right decision and everyone turned-out happy.
If an air traffic controller gives you an instruction that is safe for them, but unsafe for you, just decline to do what they ask. YOU are the Pilot in Command. Not ATC.
Good call. You as PIC are allowed to decline an ATC instruction if you feel it’s unsafe to do so.
Agree, you made the right choice, night is not the time for steep turns and rushed landings, the controllers supervisor should council that guy
Absolutely good call - look at all the stall spin accidents that happen from low speed turns add in night time, time pressure absolutely not a good idea. Controller probably thought he was doing you a favour to get you on the ground quicker but absolutely the right decision at your end.
I was in a 172 pulling up to the hold short line to do my runup before take off, and the controller wanted me to take off if i was ready because there was a jet on final. I said no, i am not ready. then there was like 5 more small jets and airlines. I was sitting there for a while. but I am glad I did , i hate taking off fast and having that feeling like I am forgetting something. But I wish I could have been speedier on the runup and had been ready
I was flying into DFW yesterday on final descent when all the engines started to rev. Some of the other passengers got really nervous, but I knew immediately "Oh we have to do a go around". I didn't even know what a go around was until I started watching your videos and it was definitely the first time I had ever experienced one. We were later told we had gotten a little too close to the plane landing ahead of us and the tower had directed the go around. It was definitely a cool experience seeing everything work exactly as it should to keep everyone safe.
Very cool. Thank you for sharing this
@@endokrin7897 lmfao
24:06 z Xi
This exact same issue, happened to me in Houston, while doing freeway traffic reports, many years ago. I’m in a Cessna 172 N8KE, flying North up I45, through IAH controlled airspace. Tower told us to look for a Continental heavy that was on approach. We saw the aircraft, reported a visual, maintained a safe distance, went well behind him, but the heavy still called missed approach. The pilot of the heavy was very sarcastic on the radio, and IAH ordered me to land at Hooks, and call them. I was scared to death, not because of my flying, but because I have never had anything like this happen before, and I was humiliated by someone with far more flight experience. Called the tower, and the controller asked me two questions. Did I maintain a safe distance from the other aircraft, to which I responded yes, and was I training, which I was. If that pilot happens to read this someday, I’m sorry you felt the need to call your missed approach, but it wasn’t for anything I did…
The problem is the vague/wrong instruction from the tower. Instead of saying "maintain a safe distance", they should have said maintain x-miles distance north of the other plane so that their TCAS don't trigger. "A safe distance" is actually smaller than the distance TCAS required. Tower shouldn't ask for one thing and expect pilots to read their mind and do something else. The tower knows how far the separation needs to be. The 737 pilots knew. Pipeline 351 did not, and in fact didn't need to. The tower should have told Pipeline 351 what the minimum separation they needed.
Given that the southwest plane and the Cessna were more or less moving towards each other, was the Cessna pilot supposed turn away?
@@souleymaneelouardi5513 I actually really enjoy the comments that come up on this channel. Sure they're sometimes a little bit long or whatever but that is just because they're actually real experiences. It isn't just random people trying to sound cool so everything is short and stylized. It's real people talking like real people about their real experiences.
tl;dr At least it's not BS
The controller clearly told her to stay north. To me, that means that she shouldn’t have crossed underneath him at all. The controller could have said, “stay west and north” but I think his instruction was clear enough.
I like the way the entire system, including the collision-avoidance procedures, worked together to ensure everyone landed safely in this situation. Great demonstration of how it all works.
After the 2001 JAL near miss, TCAS/RAs take absolute priority, regardless of what the controller says even. If the aircraft tells you to climb and the controller tells you to descend, you climb. On that incident in question, both TCAS instructed correctly, one to climb, the other to descent, but the aircraft told to climb by TCAS was told to descent by ATC, and complied to ATC.
In the situation of the Southwest flight it might have been too sensitive, but the Southwest pilots definitely aren't gonna risk it and just wing it.
@@Kalvinjj I agree the SW pilots made a sound and professional decision in initiating the go-around.
@@nearlynormal2293 Right? I mean, they were being entirely professional up to the point where the captain turned into a Karen and wanted to talk to a manager.
I can imagine if the TCAS system was generating the 'pull up' message in response to the Cessna. By the pilot's curt response, I suspect this may not have been his first time experiencing traffic-related problems at Midway.
@@balesjo Pretty sure everyone who flies into Midway experiences traffic related problems of some variety or another. Good lord that place is busy.
I’m a military sci fi writer and for atmospheric flying this channel is gold for me. Thanks for helping me understand the physics as a non pilot.
Years ago, I got cleared through the SFO TCA (yeah, it was that long ago) flying a 172 around 2500 feet about 2 miles off 28L. Had the pleasure of looking down as a DC-10 passed right under me. I swear I could see the pilot giving me the bird. As soon as he passed, he hit the throttle, climbed like a rocket, and gave the controller a piece of his mind!
And then you woke up from the weirdest dream ever 😂
You did an amazing job explaining how most pilots get their flight hours if not in the military. Explaining about the warning system and everything else is great information.
My hardest landing as a passenger was on Delta landing at Midway. I remember the buildings are so close to the runaway that we could see occupants of the apartments. We landing really, really rough and then the stewardess came on and said, "In case you haven't guessed, we've landed in Chicago" as everyone laughed. Then shortly after the pilot came on and apologized and said, "Umm yes, sorry folks, that was my hardest landing ever" and welcomed us to Chicago.
I'm not a frequent flyer but have occasionally enjoyed the dry humour of the cabin crew. The first time was when the choice of two meals was being announced, chicken or beef. " We cannot guarantee your first choice but we can guarantee your second choice". Many passengers chuckled.
That's crazy. I believe it. But it's crazy
@@shadowbeast2276 shadow beast
This channel doesn't have any content
@@papalaz4444244 This comment doesn't have any content. You are a bot.
Had a crab landing there during weather and it was a hard one too. Helps to know why now.
One of the best things about you Kelsey is you understand the air traffic controller has different information than you have. Too many people have giant egos and they get to be in charge of something and the rest of the world needs to obey them. I'm learning to fly a paraglider and one of the people from my school went to an invitational paragliding flying contest. The contest announced that everybody had to land because the weather was coming through. One paraglider pilot decided not to land he crashed and died laid there for several hours while they were looking for him nobody could find him. I'm absolutely certain that the top meteorologist in the world can't predict the weather better sitting in the seat on a paraglider than a high school kid that likes science sitting at the desk with the weather computer connected to the weather service and set up to monitor this area for conditions dangerous for a paraglider.
Well said. It's like this with policing too. Sometimes people go into that career because they want to be in charge of other people, and that personality type then leads to disaster, usually for the other people. I think it would be a good aspirational goal for society to find better ways of identifying such people before they end up in such roles. And to ID and fire them if it becomes apparent on the job, too.
@@islandlife756 yeah I hope to God people like you never get to do that to us. I hope people like you never get to brand us with a prediction. That's how they do it in India if you're born a dog eater you'll be a dog eater all your life you'll be treated like a dog eater and you won't ever be in a position of anything because you're a dog eater. They identify him before they even get any chance at anything. I like to give everybody a try and then if they aren't doing the job fire them.
@@markmcgoveran6811 Pilots and ATC can only enter the job after vetting. That's what I'm referring to. You seem to have misunderstood. *shrug*
@@markmcgoveran6811 If you only ever apply to a job like a police officer so you can threaten and bully other people with impunity, you NEED to be sent away. There's a time to be stern and a time to draw-down and shoot... AND 90% or more of the time, it's ALL about de-escalating the situation instead of trying to stir up trouble for the excuse...
If you're precious little ego can't handle it, stay home and lock yourself indoors. You are just one little person in a world of 7 or 8 BILLION who have very different ideals, dreams, and aspirations from you. Many of them are just passionate about their work, and YOU can take that as aggressive but you'll be entirely incorrect.
I hope you eventually manage to get your head out of your ass. When a police officer or pilot "proves he can't do the job" you get a MASS CASUALTY EVENT.
I call Mass Casualties UNACCEPTABLE as far as "job application" is concerned... AND YOUR "system" for hiring and firing will ONLY EVER create more of them. Congrat's... I guess. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 well your discourse proves my point. A long time ago we didn't let just everybody go to college. We had people who were black and we didn't let them go to college. The seats were very economical for the favorites who happen to be white to go to college and get into college educated job and make a lot more money than anybody else. At the time it was thought we could predict who would be good at something and who would not. I am a big fan of testing before we let people have these jobs. You are just a sad old bigot.
I would like to thank you for your videos.
I am a passenger I am not a professional aviator.
And having a better understanding of what you have to go through helps me be a better Is passenger.
I found myself starting to be afraid to fly so I wanted to start watching videos to learn more about aviation and what you have to go through.
Thank you for your professionalism and thank you all for your dedication to aviation.
I'm a 4000 private pilot - use to commute into Midway weekly in my cirrus SR-22. Been many years since I have been there but remember well them always requesting me to hold 150 kts until the outer marker - which I always did - and had to consistently watch my temps to keep from shock cooling the engine. Heard plenty of frustrated and cantankerous pilots on approach and in the pattern there but always enjoyed the experience. I really don't think the cessna pipeline pilot did anything wrong here. She had good communication, followed the controllers direction, and seemed to be comfortable and in control. This was an ATC issue in my book - it was the towers responsibility to keep the cessna further north to keep from triggering the RA - and he just cut it too close and/or failed to communicate. Just my 2 cents. Love the channel and the content!!!! Keep up the great work!
Even as a non-pilot this seems like the correct assessment and the tower controller should know better how far left/right, up/down the system looks for collisions and react appropriately. Since most of us are "two-dimensional" (because we have two eyes side-by-side) and the radar screen is 2D as well, it is easier to plot a horizontal evasive course rather than an elaborate "go down to altitude X" to avoid detection by the system.
I seriously wonder if you even watched the video... tower instructed the Cessna to keep north of the incoming traffic.
I am not a pilot and have never even flown in an airplane. However, I have watched over 2 CZcams videos that at least casually mentioned air travel, so I qualify as an expert. I agree that the pipeline pilot did nothing wrong and ATC failed to keep her far enough away from the big jet.
I’m a CFII, I think it was a combo of errors by ATC and the PIC. PIC was instructed to stay north, however they shouldn’t have been given instructions that allowed that to be possible.
@@12345fowler and she complied by swinging into a northern direction, if you listened closely. It just wasn't to the TCAS liking. Possibly this swing even cotributed in triggering the RA.
Pipeline flying is much better flight time than you might think. We fly all day long below 1000agl and have to avoid antennas, birds, terrain and other aircraft while also observing the pipeline. I doubt many pilots that don't fly pipeline surveys would know how to perform 60 or 70 degree bank turns on a very regular basis. You get really good on the rudders!
Hm, I can see how that might be helpful when it comes to stuff like aerial firefighting but I think maybe the point is the kind of flight experience you get from that isn't as helpful if your goal is to fly very large passenger/cargo planes. I'm not a pilot, I don't know, that's just the impression I got from what he's saying and it makes sense to me if it's true that pipeline pilots don't really fly and have to navigate in IFR conditions or at night etc.
I get Kelsey's point but don't entirely agree with him. I have a friend that fly's for a major airline and has been flying for decades. His biggest complaint with this generation of pilots is they can't fly the plane. They are reliant on the computers. He said he will often request a change of runway from L to R so it's closer to the gate. The newer pilots have to start punching buttons instead of just moving over to the other run way and landing. He can't correct them because that's what the airline wants them to do. If shit hits the fan I would prefer a pilot that can fly the plane.
I agree, it’s a different kind of flying almost like a bush pilot in a perpetual approach. That’s I used to describe it. Pipeline pilots are stick and rudder guys through and through and it’s not easy. Ya the crank and banks are a blast.
This video totally explained something to me; the hardest landing I've ever experienced was on a southwest 737 landing at midway. I mean by far the hardest landing and fastest stop I've experienced. Now I know why.
SWA is one of the few American Airlines to manage to get into a traffic accident with a car on a road.
Funny thing is quite a few of them are retired navy fighter pilots. They’re used to hard short landings.
@@user-fe1jh1yf4c That explains a lot too
I think I must have been on that same flight or maybe it's just Midway 😂
I love your unbiased assessment of these videos. Entertaining and educational
Ya.. I think I’d be more biased in favor of the airline pilot.. after all they’ve got passengers and such larger jet.. seems like the Cessna should give way like in the water larger/smaller sail/no sail craft right of way.
I love that you chose to break down the ATC audio at AFW! I fly out of alliance for a company that does the training and checkrides on the FAA’s aviation safety inspectors. The guy that said “come on man” was one of my coworkers and had an ASI in the plane at that time 😂
LOLOL! awesome! ..happy safe flying!
Timothy: C'mon man is a well known Biden retort. So he was paraphrasing your friend? lol
Haha, I FELT THAT “come on, man” in my bones. 🦴 😂Granted, I work in the service industry, but people can try your patience in any job, I liked how he stuck up for Tower. I get the feeling they take a lot of abuse from certain type of pilot, those few rotten apples. ✌🏽😂
Given the short runways at Midway, it sounds like the Southwest pilots made the right call. Every time I've landed there, the pilots have set thrust reversers to full as soon as the wheels hit the runway to stop in time.
Sully was born with 3000 hours of jet time in his logbook
That guy has an angel in his pocket too!... I hope I get to meet him someday
Thanks for the clear explanation. I am not a pilot but a potter in rural Canada. I enjoy learning about other work worlds. Thanks Kelsey!
I lived this! Many years ago I was flying into Atlanta on a wide-body jet. I was sitting forward of the wing, port side. We were on final final, maybe 1000 feet up and I saw a single-engine plane slide in from the left right into our glide path. Nose came up, full power pull-out to go around. The Captain came on the PA right away, he said, "I'm sorry about that, some fool in a Cessna took our glide path and I assure you, I will clip that guy's ticket."
What does “clipping his ticket” mean
@@realharrykane2063 getting his pilot’s license removed.
@@StillPooh62 oh thanks, should’ve guessed that
@@StillPooh62 Which the ATP has no authority to do, BTW. He can file an ASRS report but he himself has no enforcement ability with FAA.
@@scarybaldguy yeah it's a badass thing to say in the moment, but that's not going to happen. best thing to happen is you file the report, the pilot gets knocked for mandatory re-training on the situation so it doesn't happen again.
Midway airport originally opened in 1927, to serve biplanes. Hence the restricted geography. Airports of that era were often laid out in large squares (like Midway) so that pilots could take off or land directly into the wind. The runways came later. No one would ever site an airport in such a restricted setting in the modern age.
Interesting. In the UK, airstrips of that era are laid out in triangles, with a longest runway aligned with the prevailing wind. But with the triangle, you can always be at least partly heading into wind, whatever it's direction.
I'm imagining all kinds of geometric runway layouts now, a pentagram would be pretty metal :P
Eating hair isn't always fun but yeah usually. A runway clogged with hair would be fun unless there was mud or rebar mixed in
Hate it when planes shave on the runway.
@@wessexdruid7598 there are many in the US laid out like that too. Usually you can tell and old military airport by that configuration. In many cases some of those extra runways have been closed but you can still see remnants of them.
In a Cessna 172, I would be really reluctant to fly underneath the track of a commercial jet for fear of the descending wake turbulence.
This... Cant believe Kelsey went so easy on him. Also if he would have went north he could get a great view of the 737's landing, which is always awesome. But no he had to stick to his pipeline route and cause a shit ton of fuel to be burned and put a ton of stress on the pilots for NOTHING.
It was a heavier Cessna Stationair not a Cessna 172, for what it's worth.
@@raylopez99 Not to be pedantic but I dont think its worth much when we are comparing a few hundred pounds to an aircraft that is measured in tons lol.
@@raylopez99 Well, that provides some additional stability and power, but encountering the wake of a 737 would still be a bad day for a small SEP plane.
This stuff is really interesting, even for people with absolutely no pilot experience whatsoever. Thank you.
947K subscribers!! Seems like only a couple of months ago you hit the big 747. Great job Kelsey!!
I noticed that too. Not surprising at all to me.
950K subscribers just six days later. At this rate, not quite 17 days!
Just keep spreading the word. This is a great channel.
@@Ice_Karma 958k 2 weeks later. Wow
@@cap1130 Yeah, the rate of new subscriptions dropped off.
Thank YOU Kelsey!!
On another channel I commented about TCAS, pilot load during landing, different visual and distance management for small plane and large jets, and everybody including pilots were bashing me and were saying that Cessna pilot didn't do anything wrong and 737 pilot was just an a**hole. Thank you for explaining this better than I could do
I can see an argument that the Cessna pilot didn't think they were doing anything wrong, and the 737 pilot was grumpy. but in the end it was the 737 pilot's prerogative to call for a go around; as explained. I think the pilot would have sounded a bit less petulant if he'd said, "make a note, we'd have come too close to the cessna."
Cessna didn't do anything wrong AND the 737 is NOT an asshole (tho slightly grumpy). Nobody did anything wrong really, it was just a tough spot for all of them
The important thing is that no one did anything wrong, but both pilots can learn something from what happened - the Cessna can learn that giving a bit more space to bigger jets is needed for them to avoid RAs and helps everything go smoother for everyone, and the 737 pilot can learn to be a bit less grumpy :P
I'm not a pilot, haven't even been on a plane for years, but the Cessna pilot was doing exactly as they were told by control. If the SW pilot has a concern, he needs to take it up with control and not put a finger on the Cessna pilot. Jumping in on the channel when your copilot was handling the radio to have a little bitch-session may not be wrong per se, but it definitely comes across as unprofessional. The other guy on the radio was handling it calmly and coolly, there's no reason the complain couldn't have waiting until they had already gone around and parked.
I get it. He was aggravated. But venting over the air like that is just a bit petulant.
@@CyanPhoenix_ the Cessna was given instructions and those instructions were followed. The pipeline pilot was not given a series of options to choose from. They were given specific instructions. They did what they were told. I'll say none of the pilots did anything wrong but you are the asshole for trying to put the blame on the Cessna when they literally did what they were told to do.
I flew into Midway just 2 weeks ago. Couldn't believe the pilot. BEAUTIFUL landing! I mean any landing where we're not crashing or you can walk away from is a great landing, but this landing at Midway was like buttah. I was very impressed.
I don't know why the 172 would want to be anywhere close to the bigger jet. When I had 20 hr's under my belt... I was flying out of Chino, and I flew under a large jet going into Ontario. It was UGLY and I was flipped over twice before getting back on path. I was honestly lucky to live to tell the story. This was in '92, and I was training in a 152, and was at night.. so we didn't have anything in the plane to give me a warning like we do now. (ADS-b)
Flipped over... Like actually inverted twice?!?!
@@CrossWindsPat Yep. It was scary as a student pilot. I was over my practice aria, and the jet wasn't much above me.
I used to fly into/out of Midway all the time but that was 40 years ago when they permitted the gas stations to have giant tall poles advertising their gas stations. I often wondered how many poles were hit.
How many gas stations were there in the path of an active runway, with giant poles that were potentially dangerous?
@@papalaz4444244 I know a few were taken down by planes eventually the City of Bedford Park,where Midway is located , had the stations take them completely down
Yeah ..RIGHT!! 🤧 IF they were THAT tall would be LAW sign have strobe! OR NOT PERMITTED TO BE IN THAT AREA!! BS!!
@@John-dd3gz OK what about an advertising blimp tethered to the ground like those WWII barrage balloons?
An airliner did hit the gas station sign at 55th central long time ago in 1955 a Braniff flight
I've been the low time Cessna pilot on short final, looking at a huge airliner filling my rearview mirror. Scary! I was SO grateful for a controller who advised me to make a short turn-off, even though it was hard to do.
I ALWAYS learn something from your vids. I love that, even though you fly the vaunted 747, you always have some bit of advice or help for us GA pilots. For example, even though I have my instrument rating, none of my instructors ever really taught me how to respond to ATC when they ask questions. Sure, I know to check in with my location, altitude and heading; and how to read back clearances, but what DO you say when they ask if you have traffic in sight and you don't, but have it on your "fish finder" and are tracking it? I was, until today, one of those clumsy radio gobs who keyed the mike and started blabbering, "Uhhhh... I don't see him, but...uh... I have him on TCAS... I'll keep an eye out... Uh, do you want me to turn?" From now on, I know that I should just call back: "Looking, Cessna 1234AB."
Very glad I found this channel. My Dad's a big fan of aviation and I never quite understood why, but now I can see that it really is a very interesting topic. Thank you for showing us how things at the airport and in the planes work, Kelsey.
In Scenario 2 - The Cessna pilot provides a textbook example of how NOT to pilot. sheesh... I'm all for friendly and cooperative negotiating - when conditions permit. There is also a time to comply (safely) and keep quiet. If need be, pilots can also phone the tower later to discuss details. Thanks for covering topics like this, Kelsey.
"Cessna seven golf alpha, can you maintain 100 Kts to the fence?" "Not if I ever want to land, 7GA". "7GA minimum time on the runway". Wind 190 at 26 RWY 19 at LAS. I landed on the numbers and stopped on the numbers (40 flaps). "Tower, how's that?" "7GA off at the high speed, ground point 7. Smart ass." LC then double clicked.
I'm really surprised ATC would even allow the potential for paths to cross like that, and that they didn't tell the Pipeline pilot explicitly to parallel the 737's path (fly heading 058°) and go north of that point on the chart where the heading changes from 270° to 238°. In fact, it looks like there are a couple of nice towers right there with top elevations of 1038' and 1095' ATC could have told them to stay north of.
Assuming the pilot's left seat and is looking at the pipeline from there, that might not work out so well ... a left 360 might have worked out better
for sure. they caused all the issues.
this
she sounded like she couldn't care less after the 737 was forced to go around
The pipeline pilot told ATC they would pass directly under the 737 .. problem as Kelsey said is that u can’t see someone who’s there, and once TCAS alerts there’s no option .. if I’m ATC I would have vectored the Cessna
Years ago (probably about 2000) I was at St George, Utah and watched a small single engine plane take off and fly directly under a SkyWest plane coming in the opposite direction for landing. Scared me to death watching it, but I had no radio and no idea if they knew about each other and maintained visual separation.
Demanding what is essentially a colleague explain their professional decision to you mid-situation is WILD
Key lesson of today: it helps no one to cop an attitude with ATC
Kelsey calling a SW 737 purple gives me "is that dress blue or black" PTSD vibes
Funny because when I see the SW planes flying overhead they look purple to me.
They look blue to me 😂
I can't remember where I saw it but I there was a video that mentioned the perception of color and relation to speed. Something about the color red and blue but I can't find the source & for the record it has nothing, *nothing whatsoever* to do with me being distracted by a certain someone's hot workout montage. Nopety nope!
This made me think about a flight I was doing in my Cessna a few weeks ago in our local practice area which happens to be very close to a Charlie airports northern approach corridor. I was at 1500’ and monitoring approach, my position was reported to an incoming 737 and the controller asked them if my altitude would be ok for them…I thought it was weird at the time but it makes total sense now!
Many airlines have rules that they have to follow what TCAS says, even if there is no possible conflict. Some airline pilots are pissyboys about it and blame you, but they are pissy about everything.
@@rbell7666 It's also a legal requirement in order to prevent situations like that mid air collision that happened where one of the aircraft ignored TCAS and followed the controller instead.
@@rbell7666 I honestly can't wrap my mind around ignoring a TCAS instruction, unless following the instruction would clearly be more dangerous.
Can't help but binge watch these videos. Thanks Kelsey!
In the late 1980’s I got my license and flew out of Midway (this was before MDW became a real commercial hub again, as it was in the 1930’s to 1970 or so). I came in on a right base to a parallel runway from a commercial jet. That plane was on a final from a left base. It was perfectly safe, but a little weird as the two runways are pretty close to each other. MDW is a strange place, that is for sure. Amazing there have been so few incidents with all that commercial traffic.
Kelsey watching you videos finally convinced me to put my life on pause and become an airline pilot I do my first solo today thank you so much
That's exciting! I hope you enjoyed your solo!
Great one Kelsey! Very important lessons on landing shared on this upload! Much appreciated as always.
I love this guy, I learn so much from him, things I never learned in flight school. Thank You Brother.!!!
Kelsey, your videos and analyses are So Dang Instructive! They should be included in formal pilot training classes. Thank you, Captain.
I've been thinking exactly that. He'd be an excellent instructor. He explains things from all angles. 👍
He's an FO, but he needs a promotion if you ask me :P
I once had a 727 fly under me and land while I was on a one mile final as cleared by atc. Burbank CA KBUR.
As an aside, this was my second solo and I had not been taught how to go around with the flaps down. Lucky landed long and had only light wake turbulence.
Funny that as I was watching the video, youtube crashed and I went looking at linkedin waiting for my tv to restart, and first thing I saw was this article about a company doing exactly the pipeline monitoring using new cool hyperspectral cameras, allowing the pilot to "just" fly the plane. How cool is that.
The failure here is allowing the pipeline to pass below an aircraft on and instrument approach. If Southwest was on a visual, it wouldn’t have been as big a deal, but I keep my pipeline guys adjacent to final until final traffic passes. So I hang this on my fellow controller.
Agreed, very easily could have spun the pipeline, especially a fixed wing pipeline as opposed to a rotary wing pipe when they can just stop and hold or go lower
He didn't allow the pipeline to cross paths. He litterally said stay to the north. Which the pilot did
@@jamesminton3358 how did he stay to the north? He literally flew right under the approach path of the SW? He said he was visual with the 737. Hasn't a clue what it's like to be inside a commercial flight deck!
You could end up in someone's living room if you don't get down quick at midway. It's definitely compact.
Or you end up on 55th and Central Ave on top of a minivan, which sadly happened a few years back.
I work in a transportation office that coordinates 165 truck drivers. I recognized that grumpy, ‘Forgotten where I came from’ tone instantly.
I love your insight and your fairness
Hi Kelsey, I really enjoy your channel and the content you provide.
@@Wolfwent79 Yes, just report them for spam!
Does anyone KNOW if he did a Video on the ground crew guy (in Seattle) who stole a Plane and committed suicide?
Thanks in advance for any input.....
Keep safety first in flight!
Your insights into what each party may be thinking are very informative. It's easy to identify with one party and think the others are wrong, but given both perspectives it makes more sense (even if one party is not happy).
I really like your way in explaning all the different things on an airport.
The Cessna is a high wing airplane. Keeping visual separation is only possible if the traffic is in front. Once the traffic goes off to the side its no longer visible if it's at a higher altitude.
I really appreciate your videos, Kelsey. I'm preparing to earn my PPL and find these ATC v. pilots vids to be insightful. Thank you!
Great channel, Great videos, Great pilot!
Great explanation, Kelsey, thank you!
I look forward to your videos all week Kelsey!
I was based in Midway flying tours up to downtown and back, when the 22s are in use, we literally had to fly toward planes coming in on the approach. Never had to fly across the final for the 22s though. ATC at Midway are amazing though, they get planes out.
I really appreciate your videos. Especially when you break down the Pilots work load.
You wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve been asked by passengers to have the Pilots call ahead and hold their connecting flight etc. It’s always when we were about to land or on the ground. If they only knew how busy it is for the pilots during that phase. Thankfully since Wi-Fi is available we can reach out to our company ourselves.
What’s funny, is that the customers think we have that kind of control or say. We’re just two numbers, driving a single bus, among a large group of other numbers driving buses. Much like we don’t have the time to deal with that stuff, management doesn’t care to hear us calling them about a few pax connections. Especially when they already know, being that all pax info is in the system.
Also, if the guy in the Cessna doesn’t appreciate the fact that the controller was potentially saving his life, let him pay the price and hit the wake. It’ll be the last time he ever does that!
@@JetFuelnSawDust So true!! I used to fly on the ATRs out of ORD. I remember a couple times we hit wake turbulence. I was standing on both occasions. More like I was standing. 🤣
@@deecal2001 what was a cabin jumpseat like in the ATR? We’re you on the 42 or 72? A few years ago, I was looking at trying to get to one of the Bahamas islands but was worried the jumpseat on the 72 was going to be unbearable, and it was…
@@JetFuelnSawDust I flew on both. I haven’t been on one since 97 but would guess about same size as a 737 or A320? MD88 def smaller.
Plus on the ATR the boarding door is in the aft. Once you walk through the cabin the door opens to the front cargo hold and there is a pathway to the cockpit doors. Which is nice compared to mainline where you have a traffic jam when js rider trying to meet and talk to the Pilots.
@@JetFuelnSawDust This would’ve been a great video for Kelsey but it’s too old…. when I was flying the ATRs a buddy of mine was the FO on ATR72 that had taken off from ORD. So there is 2 FA. One JS at the front of the cabin and one in the aft. The FWD JS was inop so the FA was in a pass seat. The aft FA was brand new and on takeoff she was scared she hadn’t closed the door properly due to a lot of noise. She unbuckled herself and pulled the door handle, the door opened and was ripped off the airplane! The alarm went off in the cockpit and they called the cabin. The FWD FA couldn’t see the new FA so she told the pilots she was gone. They thought she had been sucked out. Actually the last row of pass were able to reach and pull her into their row. It wasn’t until they landed that they knew she was alive!! Incredible!
Love your videos and your confident voice and your expertise and speaking technically but simple enough to follow along.
I love these videos. So professional and informative.
ATC should've told that pipeline pilot to hold in place until the 737 landed instead of letting that pilot cross the approach path.
That was my thought also
There was no reason why the pipeline pilot couldn't wait a couple of extra minutes
He did
"Stay north of the 737" the pipeline did. It was just still too close for the tcas
@@jamesminton3358 I can see it both ways.
On 1 hand they could have told the pipeline pilot to wait. But the pilot did do as instructed.
But it it was kind of close for comfort.
Alliance can be a tricky airport for small aircraft. It's a maintenance hub for American airlines and a distribution hub for FedEx and Amazon. The runways are very long and traffic can range from very light to very congested depending on the day and time. The controllers there have always been good to smaller aircraft when I was flying in there. Despite the sometimes heavy schedule of large aircraft. It is very easy to land long in a light aircraft. The runways are super wide and being in Texas you almost always have pretty good thermals right above them. If I could choose a large airport to learn to fly around larger traffic it would be Alliance.
One of your best and most interesting videos Kelsey! Thank you.
Yes, these are uncomfortable things to happen. Few years ago, I was approaching LAX 25L with a B777 and it was night time. ATC gave me same kind of advisory of some helicopter traffic crossing from south to north ahead and below me. And the helicopter pilot told us that he had us in sight. But it still made me quite uncomfortable having that TCAS giving me TA's, while I was desperately trying to make a visual contact with that helo. I had my finger already on TO/GA switches and I would have executed a go around in a heart beat, but then I finally saw the helicopter among all highway traffic and other lights on my left side, safe distance away. I made the landing, but it was not very comfortable. So I do feel for those Southwest pilots in your story. Great stuff Kelsey, keep on doing the good work!
Kelsey.... Thank you SO MUCH FOR all the hard work you have done to post these videos 👌.... I look forward to them each week and during the week I revisit your video library 👀
So true. Yet there are STILL certain braindead bumfluffs who still don't/won't believe Kelsey's an actual pilot (B747 for Chrisakes)! Go figure.
Uncle Martin 😒
In another life, I'd be a pilot. I LOVE geeking out on this stuff. I always look forward to your videos on Sundays. Thanks for the great content.
Flew a friend to LAS. She had never been there. Planned to arrive at dusk when the lights are coming up. Spectacular. Beautiful red sunset. On base she said: "look! They have Arbys!!!"
Woman shouldn't drive cars let alone planes 😒
Why not be a pilot then? Save up some money, start training, get a membership at a flying club and fly some planes. You don't have to go balls to the wall and get your own plane to fly.
Great explanation Kelsey - you the man!
Just thinking about the wake turbulence gives me chills. During one of my cross country flights I felt wake turbulence from a twin prop. I personally would avoid a jet’s wake like the plague.
Awesome vid. Thanks for sharing
What a lot of people also might not understand is pipeline is a federally mandated inspection, so this girl was doing a required job. When you mentioned experience, you can tell the pipeline girl is experienced “calm, cool, collected and professional” at all times. It’s only the airline captain that makes a big deal out of it, and my guess is he could have continued with zero risk. This is why at no time did the very busy experience tower controller or pipeline pilot freak. Airline captain, “no let’s put this one on the books and go around” - what an arrogant guy, too big a chest for his shirt. I’ve been in this same scenario at Class B, C and D airspace near weekly - it’s just part of the job!
You are getting TCAS warnings "near weekly"? Scary.
I would never fly under another descending aircraft. And she did not stay north as instructed.
You did a good job, I think, with covering the airliner's point of view and TCAS. Concerning pipeline pilots, we are mostly old and my 17,000 hours at 200' or below crop dusting and with waiver on pipelines was actually a low number of hours. At 1200' around Midway, I agree that this pipeline pilot was not as experienced as most. I flew her pipeline down the ditch north of Midway and then cross to the south, but at 200' AGL. The controller also had less experience with pipeline, I think. We cross most large airports and even take jet fuel lines to between the parallel runways and 180 back at some. I see your point with TCAS and go around being safer in this case with pipeline at 1200.' However, I have often heard the tower controller (we never enter B, but only D airspace at 200') tell the airliner with TCAS, "He's fifty feet off the trees. He is not traffic." So experience all around helps with knee jerk response where not needed. Where needed, yes, go around. And yes, pipeline can hold off. I have been held off hundreds of times and shot the gap only when the tower controller cleared me between airline traffic. The fit is tight, but a good pipeline pilot and a good controller and airline pilots experienced with pipeline operations can make it happen safely.
Again, good job with the explanation of the very common situation. For we who fly small airplanes, take it from an old pipeline pilot: we can be separated much easier and much safer when we stay below the upside down wedding cake layer. If VFR and Approach is really busy, get down low and make separation (tower now) a snap. And yes, we can see that busy traffic much better with a blue or grey background rather than with city ground clutter as a background. Imagine finding a pipeline mile post between stop signs and mail boxes. Staying safe sometimes is staying low. Be safe out there and work together. Nothing illustrates how we are all in this together more than a midair.
Now I understand why flying in and out of LaGuardia as a passenger often feels so rushed. Very insightful video. Thank you.
I thoroughly enjoy your videos. I love aviation although I seldom get to
Fly. Your videos help fill my desire to fly. Thank you for your time and effort putting together your excellent videos!
If I was a passenger on the 737, I would be very thankful that the pilot did not accept cutting corners.
hey Kelsey, what happened to your amazing intro? dont let it drop!
I learn new stuff every time I watch one of your videos. Great job Lelsey.
Fantastic job! Great analysis and breakdown.
I just started in the flight sim experience and let me say...I JUST found your videos and I LOVE how you not only make it entertaining but educational. Great stuff Kelsey appreciate it.
I’m not a pilot will never be a pilot but damn if I’m not going to keep watching your vids.
in the second video, the cessna had previously obtained long landing clearance for runway 16L, which the ATC then revoked pretty much at the last minute so they could allow an Embraer to cross 16L. When the cessna proceeded to do a long landing on 16R, the ATC got real short with him, and then made him do a go-round. basically, the ATC screwed over the cessna twice in a row. After the cessna was on the ground, the ATC told the cessna to contact ground, but neglected to state the ground frequency, which is when the cessna took the opportunity to contact ground without changing frequencies as a way of messing with the ATC.
As an approach controller you generally want to keep slow traffic close to the airport to not congest you final with slow traffic for too long. So letting a slow aircraft in mixed traffic make a 360 really is a best practice for experienced controllers
Another awesome video Kelsey, you have such an awesome job. I love binge watching your channel. Keep up the great work, your awesome 👍🏼👏🏼👊🏼🤟🏻
Lol I work at midway and when that recording went up a while back, we were listening to it in our line shack.
You really help us nervous fliers. The way you break down what goes on with aircraft is really informative.
Woman shouldn't drive cars let alone planes 😒
Traffic control is fascinating to me! And I like listening to your commentary.
I understand that landing an aircraft is the most difficult part of flying. I like seeing how the controller keeps everything on an even keel.
Thanks for your work!
Important note, N721FL is a Cesena. But it's a Cesena Stationair. A plane that is much bigger than some little 172
Also important, correct spelling is Cessna.
Im not a pilot. ive always wanted to be one. This channel is so informative and so forthcoming about what its like to be a pilot and its encouraged me to get my pilots lisence in the next couple years. im 19 btw :)
Good luck and cheers that you made that decision! You won't regret it. Have fun!!!
David Stewart...Good luck and keep the blue side up.
@@nisawallace5903 ...unless you're over water
@@ryan1111111555555555 Water is clear and only reflects the blue of the sky...but you know that!
@@nisawallace5903 The sky is clear but it refracts blue light which makes it look blue.
Happens all the time at SMF (Sacramento, CA). There are AG planes crop dusting below the final approach course. We see them, they see us, they fly under and we land. Communication and following the expectations are key.
Absolutely insightful and informative. Thanks Kelsey!
Loved the video.
I was wondering...I'm originally from San Diego (although now retired in Dallas).
I would like to get your take on the crash of PSA 182 on September 25, 1978. A horrific story and I understand it prompted some big changes in the airline industry.
Thanks for doing a great job!
Yes, I couldn't help but think of PSA 182 after watching this video - a Cessna 172 under a B727. Of course, this occured in the days before TCAS. I think the Southwest pilots were right to be irritated in this particular instance.
@@lisarehagen4201 The difference is that PSA never saw the 172, and they were looking for him but they just couldn't find him as they were above and slightly behind him and the smaller plane would be difficult to spot. In this case both airplanes saw each other and maintained visual seperation, but the computer chimed in that it felt uncomfortable. TCAS is a great system but it errs on the side of caution and airline and maybe FAA rules mandate that RA's be followed - even in the case of positive visual seperation in VFR.
@@upgrayedd9732 You are correct. I had forgotten that PSA never saw 172. I had to go back and read the details of that accident after reading your comment. Thank you for that reminder.
This is one of those rare instances where an incident occurred even though both pilots did nothing wrong.
Yeah ATC were dumb
That's a question I have - Kelsey's take at 14:30 is "this is a learning experience for the pipeline pilot." Is that to imply that she was in the wrong but forgivably so?
Also, didn't the SW jet say they did have visual on the Cessna? I mean, if the issue is that ATC and Cessna were conforming to one standard (maintain visual separation) and the SW jet was conforming to another (do what TCAS tells you), then it sounds like the ATC procedures would benefit from a change.
Agreed Lee. Remember - Russian pilots (and others?) have been trained to ALWAYS follow Controller instructions, rather than TCAS advisories etc., which has led to certain 'events'. Insofar as I'm aware, that's been changed - not 100% sure though.
@@kevinrusch3627 she did nothing wrong. However, she learns because now she knows that a TCAS might get triggered because of how close she is. So next time, even though it’s safe and legal, she will probably leave a bit more space.
In 1994, I had a similar experience. I flew traffic reporters over the highways in Buffalo, NY. I would cross the departure end. It was easy for me to pick up traffic, since they started on the runway and I could visually track them. I found out what was comfortable for me and safe and legal, was sometimes a bit uncomfortable for a jet right after their take off. I kept a bit more distance after a few mentioned their displeasure on frequency.
Did an incident occurre though? No accident and everything stayed safe, yeah the airline pilot is annoyed, but then again, it's the airline pilot's systems that caused the aborted landing. T
There are a lot of folks on the roads like that last pilot... I live on an island where nothing's more than 14 miles from anything else, and most places are half that or less. Yet every time I drive the speed limit, somebody tailgates me or blows right by... and without changing my own speed, I get to the grocery store of the ferry landing about 1 minute later at the most. It just doesn't pay to speed here unless you're willing to do 70MPH in a 35MPH zone, but there are lots of people who never figure that out...
Ego vs confidence. Good video Kelsey.
Glad the situation worked out with the Southwest plane and the Cessna. I was kind of chuckling about the TCAS system, though, because recently I got a new car that yells at me all the time about lane markers and sometimes about braking distance, and 99% of the time it's just a case of the car not being able to reason. However, in the sky you can't always see everything like you can on the ground. Great lesson for the Cessna pilot, I hope.
There was a guy at a place I used to work at who complained that the patrol car constantly beeped at him, nobody could replicate the issue. Eventually someone rode in the car with him, and two things happened - one, he got fired. Two, we realised the patrol cars had an out of lane sensor. Dude was almost constantly drifiting over the centre line!
@@ilfardrachadi2318 Sorry the guy lost his job, but still...not a good driving habit. I usually get beeped when I'm fighting the car's yearning to hug the center line...I tend to stay a bit to the right (I'm in the U.S.). One time it actually grabbed the steering away from me and I was nowhere near off the road, lol.
At least it hasn't slammed the brakes yet.
@@alix5704 Keyword 'yet'. My Model S had a LOT of phantom braking issues and it loved to hug the center line, scaring the hell out of oncoming drivers so much that I had to turn lane "centering" off. My current ride, 2021 Ford Escape, has the opposite problem, putting me on the center of the lane and the car's right side on the shoulder. Had to disable that as well.
Makes me happy to have no autopilot in my Cherokee 180. :^)
@@alix5704
I had a similar issue in a rented VW golf in the Scottish Highlands. The damn thing was determined to drive straight down the middle of every road that didn't have a painted centre line (which is a lot of roads up there) since it was "centered" between the two lines it could find. Not great when you have 40mph traffic coming the other way 😅
I've seen a new Cessna pilot fly in front of an A320 on final and the 320 pilot banked hard left and let the other pilot have it. It's not repeatable here. lol. Needless to say the Cessna pilot lands had NO idea what is going on, the controller was coaching him to the taxiway. The 320 pilot lands and yells, "GiVe HiM a NUMBER tO CaLL!!!" Yeah...Mr. Cessna's day turned crappy after that. Have a great week everyone!
Why you gotta SaY iT LiKE thIS? To me that implies the a320 pilot was in the wrong and being stupid.
Love these videos man. Wonderful explanations and even some animations now! Fancyyy
Thanks for sharing your perspective