I was wrong about Tekken Sidestep Charts.
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- The original chart: pbs.twimg.com/media/GGZatKXWo...
0:00 - Intro
2:24 - Why They're Good
9:49 - Why They're Bad
20:17 - Should you use them?
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Intro/Outro by SKONK - / @bigskonk
Intro/Outro track by KEIFERGR33N - / @keifergr33n
Edited by: / @averyxfgc
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I'm PhiDX, I play Tekken professionally for @ParagonFGC and ArcadeShock. - Hry
Glad you changed your mind on this cause the initial discourse around it was so strange. I understand why high level legacy players and pro’s would not like this sort of resource, because it does have laws and the game is not that simple.
But it was also very obvious to me that they were filtering the chart through their experience and completely forgetting what life was like *before* they had an encyclopedic knowledge of the game. It was always to easiest to start learning a concept in a general sense, with rules and principles, and worry about the exceptions later, than it is to treat every problem you’ll ever see as a completely new problem.
They *are* new problems, for sure, but the principle is still valuable as a guidance tool.
agree, a lot of fighting game info wants you to be a pro competitor, when charts like this that teach a concept in a general way are better for more casual players that don't want to become pros, which happens to be the majority of people that bought Tekken
"You like sidestep charts, don't you squidward"
Back during S1 Tekken 7 (before the Geese patch) - I was able to get up to Red Ranks but one thing that always held me back was the fact that my opponents knew when to SS against me, I didn't do any tracking moves to adjust and then also - I didn't know when or where to sidestep.
There was a sidestep chart that was made and like that quote tweet you shared - it made me actually start to implement it in my gameplay. Of course I'd get clipped often but the chart made me start to realize why I had to step a particular direction against a character. Like your video, the key moves for a character were the reason that they were "weak" to a specific sidestep.
It then made me start to think, "Well okay, if a character is weak to a particular sidestep direction - what does their player do to adjust?"
So of course, not only did I start to see the importance of tracking moves - it also made me start to experiment with using moves other than tracking moves to counter.
An example stuck in my head is when I played my brother and I was using Jack. I noticed that while Jack was weak to SSL, my brother started to SSR because he adapted to my adaptation when he would SSL and it was killing me. From there, to condition him to stop SSR, every time I did his db1 and my brother would SSR, I'd immediately do WS1 to discourage it. It essentially made my brother have to commit to a more linear style and not get too trigger heavy with the SS.
I wouldn't have gotten far in T7 and T8 Ranked without the initial SS chart giving me the confidence to try it.
There was a sidestep chart guide during Tekken 7 that helped me out a lot where it specifically says if you need to side step or side walk as well as the dangers of stepping and some exceptions to keep in mind. Best example there was Dragunov which was listed as SSR with a note that at midrange you SSL. These guides are really helpful in starting to learn but people who put out these guides should also inform players that there are exceptions, because not all new players know this.
The final match between Knee (Dragunov) vs Arslan Ash (Victor) in their showdown battle recently in Abu Dhabi really showcased how Knee beat Arslan's Victor by always stepping to the right, but Knee might just came up with that strategy on the spot, since he said he doesn't know Victor well.
Might have* just come* up with
I think he was referring to not knowing Victor the way non-Koreans play him.
Korea has a very defensive style . They could be using Victor as a timing and spacing character looking for certain hits while poking.
Arslan was playing a very Pakistani game (button heavy with making the most of chip / poking with movement).
Knee was really smart to switch to drag tho; his damage allows anyone to be patient and wait for a df2 coz damage with wall is insane.
Just say you dont have friends bro its okay. @@KarlKognition
@@Kenlac92 Get a life.
You consistently make some of the best informative content for up and coming players. Thank you for the training sessions.
This is my first Tekken so I had no idea there were even charts like this. I've just been trying to sidestep the same way against everything because I had no idea there were specific ways to sidestep moves. Really excited to go to the lab and practice this now!
You always needs somewhere to start whenever learning something new. Side Step Charts are a useful as a STARTING POINT in learning to ss. They shouldn't be treated as a conclusion or a final answer.
I just made it to Purple Ranks and one of the big factors was watching PhiDX guides, and watching his streams, he explaining how he approaches a match has helped me to start looking at what my oppponent is doing more carefully . I'm telling you, he has to be the best Tekken 8 content creator by far.
Actually trying to punish "block strings" was huge for me
one of the main issues of sidestep charts, which relate to the "they are sometimes wrong" point you mention, is that some characters straight up *don't* have a weak side. Azucena is a perfect example of this. She tracks super well in both directions with a lot of her very scary tools so stepping her randomly is always going to be dangerous. Hell even stepping her with intent is super dangerous since she tracks so well
Steve famously was another character whom you'd avoid stepping in general, I don't know how much that has changed in 8 compared to 7 but the point still stands: some characters don't have weak sides. The chart makers might tell you to step one direction because what they consider the "strongest" tools in that character's arsenal are mostly steppable in that direction but in reality they have an equally strong toolset that tracks the other way.
I think ideally someone making a chart like this should make "degrees" of side weakness. Asuka is clearly much much weaker to SSR than other characters of the same "weak side" are so that should be reflected. Even then it just takes a single Asuka player who loves using uf3 to completely shut down the chart
Dude your channel is awesome, I´m learning a lot!! thanks for your effort and dedication!
I've been watching your videos since T8 dropped on a recommendation from a friend. I have not been disappointed yet! So much great information. It's been a minute since I have played a fighting game. T8 is my reintroduction. These vids are meta for that! 0:06
🔥 Sick video this one helped me personally so much again. Good stuff Phi!
Nice explanation! Always love how informative your videos are.
awesome content as usual. been watching your vids for a week now. ive learned so much in the game because of your guides like how to break from grab. keep making amazing videos about tekken.
I genuinely feel like I'm attending an online class rn. Keep up the good work
Leaving a comment to the teacher! Thank you for the explanation. I'm quite a new to Tekken online, I've always played offline past Tekkens and now I really want to learn and catch on. Thank for your videos and your explanations!
Love the content! as a complete beginner to tekken, this game has been a blast so far.
Another banger vid.
Great content as always PhiDX ❤ This one helped me a ton on getting more insight into defensive options in Tekken
Great video man
I get so hyped learning stuff. It's crazy 😂
Good stuff, using these kinda charts to start getting a grip on characters as a newer player always made sense to me.
Thanks for the video, very informative!
This info is so invaluable to a new player like me. Thanks a bunch for making this ^^
I'm new to Tekken with T8 and this exact chart got posted in a discord I use a lot. It got me to start at least trying side steps, with a base understanding I wouldn't have taken the time to gain on my own otherwise.
Really helpful video. thanks again for all the amazing content
I'm late but thank you so much bro
Very nice video - thanks a lot of sharing this information.
this is great for me im not really good at tons of info shoved into my consious so labbing every move would overload my brain, but the chart rule of thumb where u learn exceptions will really help
8:50 biggest exception for asuka usually is F2. That move clips people all the time.
I'd love to hear you break down when stepping is a smart decision, particularly when negative frames are involved. E.g: The difference between stepping at -2 vs stepping at -7~8
The difference depends on the move you’re trying to step, like everything else.
You’re never dodging a jab or a df1 at -7 for example, but you could easily dodge something slower, like a big + on block mid or running move.
Stepping will always be safer & more effective with less negative frames but being -6 doesn’t mean you can’t move, you just better have a strong read.
Hell yeah, the nuance is appreciated.
Tbf the confusion between timing and direction is something that can be treated as just another exception. They're special cases you'll encounter and need to solve, whether you use ss charts or not.
5 minutes on twitter and this man drops a video about sidestepping. Lad's cooking.
Clean
Just to clarify for everyone the direction you sidestep is from your perspective.
Well put sir
Hell yeah
Got so much respect for someone willing to publically reconsider their position in response to new ideas.
The FGC is blessed to have you
I hope PhiDX sees this comment. SS Charts helped me improved my own offence as well. I began to see how my opponents reacted to my pokes, how they ss, and their reaction afterwards. So I made a different chart for myself(it was more like a spreadsheet.), to learn how I should start my frame traps. Like poke #1 do this, after poke #1 then I should do X because it tracks SSR, etc.
Anyways I should continue watching this video.
I'm brand new to tekken (less than a week), with thousands of hours in 2D FGs. Sidestepping is absolutely one of those things that feels too daunting to try the moment you hear someone mention different characters have different weak sides. I can immediately see why sidestepping is useful, and its cool and unique to tekken so I really wanna try it. But without a structure to follow, it feels like one of those things you can only get from years of playing and knowing every single (important) move on every character and lots of labbing. Although to be fair, the whole game felt like that to me a week ago. When I saw some discourse saying that charts aren't good, I immediately decided I was gonna try using them anyways. It's a starting place, and that's all I need right now. I'm still learning my *own* character's moves, I'm not at a place to lab problem matchups yet. I wouldn't even know what key moves to test SS against. It also makes me think that I should try finding strategies to cover my own weak side if I'm getting SSed a lot by someone.
Loving your content btw. Found you from Sajam's tournament and the Boxbox coaching.
on note with the dashing, reina can catch sidesteppers sometimes with her wavedash just before adding in her attack. takes practice tho
hello! this is a little bit of a late comment, but you might see it anyways!
I'll personally say that these side step charts helped immensely in tekken 7 because just getting the pure dopamine rush of successfully learning about where a characters strongest moves can be stepped, then seeing them coming at you, and reacting to it with the new information you learned is something that intermediate players will chase after when they eventually start getting clipped again, it will give them the motivation to look up SPECIFIC moves and start learning the exception, this is how it worked for me.
sure my experience is not universal and these charts **can** do a better job explaining that they are not meant to be all encompassing, but i do think these side step charts HAVE their role to play.
Also another thing that a lot of experienced players forget is that most newer players dont even know how to start labbing and how to even lab side steps, them learning the **general** weakside and working from reverse to figure out the exceptions would seem WAY easier than wanting to lab where to side step a character and opening their movelist and seeing 120 moves that they have to work through.
great video and i appreciate people like you who are willing to be like "you know what i may have been too harsh on this!"
Subscribed instantly
You got some seriously good information for new 3D fighter players man, always played 2d fighters, Tekken 8 is incredible! Cheers.
I think what you said about people taking things seriously but not being TOO serious is a really important thing most pros and high level players miss.
I'm exactly that kind of person. When I'm playing, I want to be learning and picking things up, not just mindlessly mashing. But I also don't expect to become a true high level player/tournament player. I'm a noob at Tekken but that's been my story with street fighter, DBFZ and strive for years now
You can always learn more as you find problems. But as a player who dives into ranked and then learns the problems I found the guides a great thing to glance at while I got ready for the next battle in Tekken 7. You just have to remember they're a guide and no option should be expected to cover everything.
The sidestep chart is a must have for the new tech I’ve found
Key correction on the Asuka part. Asuka's db1 tracks to her right, so you can still continue to sidestep/walk right if she's throwing it out (you can tell when Phi steps left in this video and it hits more reliably).
In general, Asuka has no fast safe moves that track SSR, so you can really blow her up by step/walk blocking in that direction. A better player will start dashing in or trying to walk with you to stay in line, but when you see this start happening you can just start throwing out quick keepout/counterhit tools and continue blowing her up.
Asuka also can't create frame advantage as well as any other character. She's the only character with a minus on block jab, and she has to rely on slow moves to create offence with out losing her turn.
Namely, you may see these moves:
db3 - 20 frames with bad tracking
ff1 - 23 frames plus a dash input, making it even slower. Its tracking is atrocious, I tried doing the shortest sidestep I could into block and this move still whiffs every time. Its also by far the worst move on whiff in the game and can reliably be punished with slow unblockables. Hell, you can even whiff your initial punish and still have time to launch Asuka when she whiffs this.
f4 - 19 frames, slow enough to reliably beat with SSR block every time. Can be ducked and launched if you've got the hard read.
If you turtle up and SSR block, Asuka just loses.
tl;dr Asuka's bad, probably the worst in the game.
🌟
PhiDX 🙌
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I agree with the term Intermediate Players, players like me who knows how to pull off combos in a match but unable to quickly adapt to which moves are punishable, side steppable or throw breaks. It doesnt eliminate the whole process of learning each move needs to side step other direction but it does help that we mostly have to 'temporarily' skip the learning process of side stepping and focus on the other two aspects which are punishes and throw breaks
24:41 damn, my dude really dropped a video on friday night and called out all the weekend warrior martial artists
I remember hitting red ranks, doing my typical strings and just starting to hit air when my opponent starts walking around me. I was absolutely flabbergasted! (and enraged lol) Started using this sidechart and now I'm doing the same, haha! It's a great learning experience.
It takes way less headspace to remember "SSR except these 3 moves" than every individual move's sidestep directions.
Having exceptions doesn't invalidate a rule, that's the mindset i try to use also. Tekken is so complex but at the same time the structure seems very consistent, the worst people can do when making a guide or tutorial for the game is get lost in all exceptions and that's what MOST people with much knowledge of the game seem to do, overcomplicate things before estabilishing basic rules. I know when you understand the intricacies of a complicated system you wanna comunicate that bc it's interesting, but videos like this are the way to do it, not just shitting on a resource for learning.
As a new player, how am I supposed to know which moves to lab.. to see if the side step chart works?
When I'm getting blown up by certain strings onions, idk the inputs for other people's characters... so how do I recreate the scenario in practice mode to practice what I was losing to
On Asuka DB,1 that one tracks point blank from my testing but not at all from one back dash away. I step it 100% round start, but mid match in pressure never.
Of course the engineer gives the calculus analogy
New player question, is the game having some issues with the z y axis? Its weird when the opponent gets launched high up it always does that idk xD
Kinda interesting how different Lili and Yoshimitsu sidestepping is compared to the rest cast. Wonder if they are able to break the exceptions with their own side stepping gimmicks
This video really puts into perspective something I’ve never been able to explain. But tekken is a game of rules ever since it got competitive. Mid-mid is punishable, Df1 has a safe high and a punishable mid mix. All lows are punishable. Etc.
Learning the rules is the best way to learn the game.
Yes, even before it got competitive!
Thx for the content TEKKEN teacher 💀
👌
🎉
I think maybe it would help if the characters on the chart were sorted by difficulty from Easy-Hard to sidestep.
It’s a great visual aid though, and made attempting to sidestep a lot less intimidating for me. ^-^
14:36 this is super stupidly strange, because she hits with a right hand and right foot, but at the same time you sidstepping to her right and klipping through her kick 😂
i think the best thing to do is just make your own sidestep chart in something like excel by actually labbing their moves and including the major exceptions or other important short notes. that way you're not just blindly trusting a chart that you don't actually understand but you still have something to reference quickly if you need to refresh your memory.
Yea this is the "pro method" I was loosely mentioning
23:40 “serious causally “ that is the perfect term for it because I watch YT videos and guides but know im not competing at tournaments I Just want to beat my irls without thinking regardless if there a masher or not , and improve in tekken and learn the game (this will take years)
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This is why Jin’s demon paw was clips people in 7 and 8 despite its below average hitbox
Yeah. Swl/Ssl vs dvj in tekken 7 to evade ewgf and hellsweep then start ssr when he did ws2 helped me a lot before.
He's so handsome! Great guide!!
key word of this video is "sometime" 😂
I've never understood why Lee is always listed as SSL. Moves you can only SSR that will catch SSL: 12, 21, 44, f333, d2, df2, uf4, ff3, ff4, d3, df4 - many others im sure, but basically all his key moves. WR moves seemingly will often cover the character's weak side, as will several lows, and also some select highs or unsafe mids - good to know for your matchups of course, I'm not there yet : )
Can you make a video about sidestep training like what you did for grabs and punishment?
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Hey @PhiDX im sure you know this already but a better way to deal with the running azucena (spelling lol) move is to block the first hit (knee) and duck the elbow. Shes launch punishable after and right in your face!
So yea instead of stepping the running move do a very quick block, duck, launcher.
She stops using that move quick when she sees you have that in the bag
The move jails. If you block the knee you cannot duck the second hit
@@PhiDXOmg i told you the slightly wrong thing lol i had to enter the lab again
The counter is sidestep right and duck! You can duck the elbow after stepping the knee to the right, and since the move tracks, shes in your face for the perfect launcher. (All very quick)
You can step left as well but she gains a lot of distance
It had been a second since i tried it im sorry about that lol
Against Jin it might be preferable to sidestep left against him. Helps you svoid cd1, 21, 12, uf2, f4, etc. Electric, ff2, laser scraper tracks to his right. How many jins have the execution snd awareness to throwout electric? Not many.
You make a video on open timing sidestep?
This feels like that bell curve meme of "haha x move goes brrrr" > "nooooo you can't use x, it's bad because abc" > "haha x move goes brrr". While it saves headaches giving people the benefit of the doubt and assume they would take a image on the internet with a grain of salt, its also cool to discuss the merits of said image and catch those who would have no "common sense" instilled in them yet and teach the correct approach.
Amazing video overall. Sometimes we need to discuss the """""""obvious"""""".
Side stepping is key to beating Reina players cause they will spam combos were u can’t react unless you got god like reflexes
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24:45 i mean, to be fair, if i ever get good enough to consider being a serious tournament player, i either already fixed this for the exceptions i know off, or, wouldnt mind doin the unlearning the hard part, because i frankly dont see myself there unless i put another 15.000 games in. for those 15.000 games tho, i can atleast, especially against matchups you rarely see, make use of this.
i just got into a long discussion the other night with Seattle players about why sidestep charts can be useful for players, so i admittedly feel a little bit vindicated watching this video lmao. real shit though, thanks a ton for uploading this.
i think people forget that every human brain is different and uses and learns information differently, and at the end of the day, if a type of brain can use that resource to get to the end point of skill that they want to reach, then i see no reason to discourage their existence -- especially in a game like tekken, where there is so much information that you are constantly taking in at all times that you will absolutely not retain or even interpret in the same way all the time.
having something quick and dirty that helps you understand as you train and build your knowledge and awareness of moves and patterns (especially during the times that you experience mental stack overload *which will happen*) is something that i feel like should be obvious is useful, and i felt like the discourse around it was very strange. people post tier lists and matchup charts all the time and that is no different than a sidestep chart (except most tier lists are wrong and poorly thought out lol).
they should delete tracking properties for straight moves. This would make Tekken more 3D ish. Or even adjust this timing for SSs. Is so inconsistent
This is basically the sidestep version of your punish recommendation. You’ve got 15f and 10f. Try 15f. If you can’t launch then you use 10f. It helps to have a starting point.
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Amazing content. Keep it up
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One thing i dont under stand with the sidesteps Is for example kazuya i Need tò sidesteps tò my left of the screen? or i Need tò side step tò HIS left depending in wich side of the screen he Is ?
Your left
@@PhiDX Thanks Man keep It up with your awesome videos
It really helps up a lot
man forget the side step chart, where can I get a list of those key moves you had for each character? or is it just the keymoves in the punishment practice tab?
Experience from fighting and losing a lot lol
Whats do u mean by "key" mid as opposed to just mid?
@PhiDX Lars is actually SSL, have to make a correction there, silent entry is SSL, crouching 1+2 is SSL, his key moves are SSL except ff1+2.
SE is SSR~b
@@PhiDX You got to check it out again. Sidewalk right avoids only SE3+4, while Side stepping right does not avoid anything at all.Side walking left on the other hand consistently avoids all SE options except SE3+4.
I feel like learning a 'default' step direction vs. characters is analogous to the advice, "You should block standing," only it is character-specific. Obviously, you need to block according to the move your opponent is using, but nevertheless, it is helpful to know which option should be your go-to.
SSR and SSL is left or right of our character not the opponent right, kinda confuse
phidx is never wrong, he just provides alternative facts
ss duck? and use ws?
What would make SS charts more useful if they included the way key moves track. Like say which way the majority of the key moves are weak then list the ones you have to watch out for.