Spec Ops: The Line - II: What Does It Mean to be a Hero? - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2012
- What does it mean to be a hero? Spec Ops: The Line speaks directly to the player and asks why we pick up a video game, and why we obey its violent commands. How do we want to see ourselves?
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(Original air date: August 29, 2012)
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♪ Intro Music: "Penguin Cap" by CarboHydroM
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♪ Outro Music: "Dust" by Stemage, XOC
stemage.bandcamp.com/album/whe... - Hry
OH MY GOD, you know that "constant descent" thing? how the game always makes it so you're going down even when normal laws of space hint that you shouldn't have any more "down" to go? That's totally a Stanley Kubrick thing, and it's a fear tactic. He used unnatural corridors that don't make physical sense to create a sense of unease in the Shining, hallways that twist and fold upon each other to a point where they don't make sense, and cinematography that suggests an unnatural layout of the building. that is awesome.
I believe Adams and Lugo represent different sides of Walker's conscience. Notice how they fight and never agree with each other? Adams tends to be on Walker's side, whilst Lugo is the voice of reason, suggesting alternative methods and trying to remind Walker of his original mission. If you were to accept that Lugo represents reason, then his death takes on a new meaning since he was the first of the squad to die.
They say that in war, truth is the first casualty. This game is awesome.
+MBr At the same time, Adams simply stops being on Walker's side after Lugo dies.
+Persona Ohnlyne I feel like the fact that Adams drops walkers side helps enforce this even more. While lugo is truth and reason, Adams is resilience and determination. While lugo is horrified and basically turns against walker after the white phosphorus, Adams sticks with him. I remember he eventually says something like "I respect you walker, I just don't agree with you". However, once lugo dies even Adams, or walkers determination in completing their mission, surrenders and eventually dies because he, and Walkers subconscious, realizes it's not worth it anymore.
+Cc Bb Great point on Adams surrendering, I overlooked that.
+MBr You didn't notice, Adams says near the end of the game, "I trust you Walker , I just don't agree with you"
+MBr And to reenforce this: Adams dies right before you reach the end of the mission, your goal, the point where you realise that... That not even matters, because it was a lie!
Even Walker's determination died at the end, when the PTSD took place and he finally decented to hell
Anyone else noticed, right when the game starts and you see the credits, the last one is "Special Guest:" and they show YOUR username?
+Persona Ohnlyne YES! That messed me up, so much. I got creeped out. The reason I bought the game was due to EC's coverage and the No Punctuation review of it, so I was aware of what kind of game it was, but it still unnerved me to see my username up there.
+Peter James zero punctuation?
+Benjamin Adams there was no choice ;-;
one of many great details of this game. I also like the very fucked up version of the us-american national anthem in the main menu ...
Benjamin Adams in general there is no denying that the game critises the US-military as well. Which is a good thing, since rarely anyone dares to do so in the real world, even though everyone agrees they are doing a lot of really bad things.
I find it amusing how Spec Ops basically tells you that, in order to really do right by its standards, you have to basically not play it. The first obstacle you encounter is a big "STOP" sign, just to clue you in.
Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the ending of the movie WarGames, where the AI comes to the realization that the only way to win at thermonuclear war is to not play at all.
It's Catch 22.
There's also Adams yelling at you repeatedly to just stop multiple times in the game.
Another game that does this well is Stanley Parable.
There is a second STOP sign. but the sign is burning, means stopping the player has now impossible
@@PsyrenXY Lugo was the one telling you to stop. Adams occasionally disagreed with you, but always ended up deferring to your judgement.
"They've created the first true triple-A drama,"
This line.
Keep it up, EC.
Paused the video at the beginning, downloaded the game, and spent the day playing. Completed it, and returned here. I'm almost speechless with the experience I just had.
Mind blown huh? Which ending did you do?
I have to say, those loading screens were one of the things that got me the most. All that adrenaline and tension as you're trying to stay alive and then BAM, the game hits you with a bucket of cold water
"You are still a good person."
"The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatants. But this isn't real, so why should you care?"
"Killing for yourself is murder. Killing for your government is heroic. Killing for entertainment is harmless."
"You are still a good person"
Also, I may have just been seeing things when I played through, but doesn't the game's opening credits list your username as a "special guest"? That hit pretty hard for me, right from the get go.
EDIT: Yup, rewatched the intro. The game puts up your username as a "Special Guest".
"How many Americans have you shot today?" I didnt know. that one hurt so bad. that phrase can explain a lot of this game's message
I have to say. When you said that you scarred away the civilians by shooting into the air, I found myself question why I didn't think of that. When that moment initially happened I was hesitant to shoot anyone, but then after I started to take damage from them I shot and killed one of them. As soon as that happened I then justified it by telling myself I had to do that to progress through the game, and that I only tried to kill one person. Now here I am months after I played the game shocked at what I did and questioning why I had justified that in my head when the solution was painfully obvious. Needless to say this game does it's job at tearing down and questioning common tropes in modern military shooters, and I wish that more AAA shooters were like it.
I had the same experience! i was like "well, this people have a reason to be mad i am just going to pass right through them" then they push me and i shot them and fell instantly bad about it.
Also, the civillia/soldier thing, when you chose one of them konrad(if i am not mistaken) says:"hey i don't blame you" or something like that, after seeing this episode i realise that was for me...:c
I punched the front guy in the face because I didn't want to kill anyone and the crowd dispersed.
*****
I dunno "An Eye for an Eye Will Make the Whole World Blind" i was actually mad because the didn't let me go though, it was the thing that trigerred me, whithout it i maybe would just pass right though them.
It's a harsh game, i want to play it again, and don't want at the same time xD
***** they killed someone that had been mowing through the city slaughtering civilians and the people trying to protect them; dooming them to die a slow death... Can you blame them?
I did the same thing. Shot one in the head and left the rest. Never occurred that I could just scare them away... Kind of a frightening thought that I sat there for a while thinking about what to do but never thought of shooting into the air.
***** I might depending on how I felt at the time. Although I was trying to point out that they were human too and had their own perspective.
In the games opening credits it actually lists you as a special guest, I thought it was cool and fun when I first saw it. But now, after playing it through, it's not cool anymore. It really hammers the point in, you're doing this, you're responsible.
If you think about it we were never forced to do anything, we could just have exited the game, gone home.
For me, the most powerful line was when Conrad said "You did have a choice! You could have stopped!" All through the game, I felt terrible for killing all those people, but justified it as "Well, I can't beat this any other way. The game is forcing me to kill people." But when he said that, I realized that the thought of not playing a game where I butcher civilians never even crossed my mind.
+StralockJenkins you can see that Walker has the same reaction on the WP scene, where Lugo is in the back yelling "HE TURNED US INTO KILLERS"... you can see Walkers face in shock, and then confused like he is looking for something to do, then he turns his face serious and say "we got to move".
it's like he was thinking "oh my god, i did this, i didn't mean it... it wasn't me... it was Konrad, they made me do it!"
btw, i loved in the end, when Walker is having the conversation with Konrad, Konrad disappears and you still hear his voice but you can see Walker's lips moving. i don't remember people doing that in games and movies, when characters create an alter ego and you see them talking like they are someone else, but at the same time reacting like someone is talking to you. it was awesome, the gameplay was nothing special and probably that's why it didn't get over the Cult status, but the story was fucking awesome.
+StralockJenkins I had a very similar experience just after Lugo dies. I tried just tried walking past the crowd of people, but after being pushed back a few times I reluctantly opened fire on them. I hated doing it and said to my self "The game wouldn't continue if I didn't do it, I didn't have a choice" and I heard Lugo's words echo in the back of my mind "There's always a choice". I sent shivers down my spine.
+Better Basher *It sent shivers down my spine.
I think the bad gameplay that felt like one of the worst console-ports was actually intended ...
StralockJenkins I know I have plenty of games on steam I haven't completed that I bought during a sale and I've seen people on places like Reddit joke about all the games they've bought and not played during sales.
But even without that, even if generally every gamer finished all their games, you still have the choice. Maybe it is a lazy excuse, but when you look at it as artistic expression and not as just another game I think it's a valid statement.
The most awesome meta game writing occurs during the very pivotal scene (SPOILERS!!!!!!):
In which you "accidentally" shoot a bunch of civilians with white phosphorous. People raged and raged online, how the developers made the scene impossible to beat without the mortar, how they tried to shoot the guys from the balcony but eventually snipers show up and just insta kill you, and how forced the "bad moment" becomes when you had no choice BUT to do it...the Developers left them no choice.
"They left me no choice, they made me do it."
...and with that, I realized the writers deliberately archieved that the players felt EXACTLY like the main character...in one fell swoop. And the funny thing is...the players didn´t realize it.
They always had a choice...put the controller down and step away.
But they wanted to see the end. Noone put a gun to their head, and forced them to play that section, yet they blame the developer to get rid of the subconcious guilt.
They got outright ANGRY at the developer, for TOTALLY forcing their hand in this scene and not offering them choice...when that is exactly the SAME delusion the main character suffers.
Fucking Genius...
You are right...
Players: You did this..
Devs: *No, you did.*
"Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two conflicting ideas simultaneously."
One part of the game has you running through a place full of mannequins by yourself, and you start to fight some guys whilst random lights start flashing everywhere. Did anyone notice some of those enemies were actually mannequins, and that Walker was hallucinating the entire thing? No?
I think it was that every time Walker shot and hit the Big heavy guy, the lights would flash, and he would be on the opposite end of the room, and where he once stood was a mannequin. Scared the hell outta me.
Nixod I didn't notice that. I didn't notice alot of things...
I have to replay this game.
Hey, I noticed it...
What I think happens is that whenever that heavy's health bar hits a set point, the screen flashes and he teleports to a different location, with a mannequin in his place. The lights still flicker regularly, increasingly quickly the more damage you've done. I know it freaked me right the hell out on my first playthrough. Once the enemies in that area were dead, I went back and obliterated all of the other mannequins, just to be safe.
thehorror2 It's sort of the "Weeping Angel" effect I suppose, the fear of what you cannot see.
In this game there was only one thing that got to me. The one line in one of the loading screens. "You are still a good person." That one hurts.
I noticed that when you would melee and execute soldiers, you were given a lot of ammo and grenades, encouraging the player to be very brutal in game. I noticed as well, that the executions became more brutal towards the end of the game, going from "simply" breaking their neck with your foot, to shoving a shotgun into their mouth and pulling the trigger. Anyone else notice these things?
They are self aware about the number of enemies by pointing out that the 33rd is GONE by the end of the game
by the end you are shown 12 guys that are either all that's left or just hallucinations, either way the 33rd is shattered as a cohesive fighting force it troops operating on their own they may wear the uniform of the US army the appear to be professional and disciplined but by the end they may be little more than a trained civilian with a gun
I don't think those soldiers were real, just like the one that you ask for a radio after killing illusion of Konrad disappeared after a while
Then what is walker shooting at and telling his team to shoot at? They clearly acknowledge the 33rd during the white phsophorous.
civillians they could be shooting civilians
I actually felt embarassed and judged by the end of the game when they say "this is all that's left of the 33rd", I wondered how they could forgive me and why they weren't shooting at me already. I wondered if I should be ready to shoot them too. Umcomfortable af.
I thought the harshest and most memorable line was "You turned us into fucking killers!", pointing straight at the player. "There is always a choice," you have the choice to put down the controller. But you don't. Felt very similar to Shadow of the Colossus in that regard.
Also there is a theory that Walker's two lackeys are his shoulder 'angel' and 'devil' and figments of his imagination rather than actual soldiers which makes more sense with regard to Walker talking through a broken radio throughout the whole game.
Personally, mine wasn't even any attend of the game. It was Walker saying to Adams in chapter 14 "We kill everything that fucking moves". Shows a lot about how far Walker and Adams have fallen, how they'd completely abandoned their mission and we're just out for vengeance.
Don't forget that early on in the game, Lugo said, "damn, if I wasn't a stone cold killer, that woulda hurt."
another line that I find very interesting is when Konrad says:"You could have stoped at any moment",and I know for sure that is adressed at the player,we could have simply put the controller down...man,it really hits you in the guts
After the white phoforus I tried everything to avoid the disaster,i started the chapter again,I tried to save Gould,I tried to shot all the soldiers without using the white phosfurus,i died like a dozen times doing this until i realised that there is no way avoiding that...powerful stuf
manymarius
To be honest it made me angry - they basically didn't allow you to prevent the disaster and forced it on us. I replayed it too dozens of times and im a good shot. I timed my pop-ups to take out a sniper or two and ducked again, listening to the bullets, calculating the openings i have in between. Nevertheless, no matter how good you are - the soldiers will keep respawning. That is the real problem i have with it. Without this forced on scene, it would have been even greater in my opinion.
paranidherc I know,that was my reaction too,but you have to understand that this is the story they had in mind,plus,this is the moment in which Walker snaps and makes up everything else so without this scene the story would have not be complet.
Keep in mind: The "Good" ending (informed upon us by the devs themselves) is to put the game down after the first chapter was over. Walker's mission was reconnaissance. At the end of the first chapter, you have a vague idea of what's going on. Enough for a normal soldier to return to a point where radio contact could be made and inform the higher ups of the situation. All the bad stuff could have been avoided if the hero complex was dropped. That is probably what I love most about the game. It points at what motivated you to continue playing, and criticizes you for being so naive. I love it so much.
paranidherc That's exactly what the developers aimed to do, make you angry, force an emotional response from you.
"We wanted the player to be where Walker was and be angry at us, the people who made them do this". "We hoped we would piss people off. We wanted people to be angry because we felt like that was a real emotional response to that scene.”
I have a theory for Lugo and Adams following you around even when you snap :
They are like Walker. They are like the player. They do not want to become monsters.
Think about it. For the whole game, they don't shoot civies, they follow you, they obey you like little dogs... And they always place the responsability on your hands.
When Lugo dies, Adams wants deeply to kill all the civies. But he won't. Unless you order him to. They want to place the responsability away, and in this case, they try to blame you and only you.
They could have betrayed Walker and walked away. But in that case, every people they would have killed, every hell they would have seen... Then it would be THEIR fault, not Walker's, not the army's, not the 33rd's, not the CIA...
Wow, that's deep man. I never thought of that, but now that you bring it up, I think it's the best explanation.
That does make some sense actually, every time an atrocity is committed, they place the blame and responsibility on Walker's hands yet never try to stop it because they feel they have no other choice, much like we feel as a player. We do these things because it's a videogame where you do these things and rarely do we think any deeper.
What if they don't exist whatsoever, and are just inside Walker's head? What if it's only him, who guns down civillians and who shoots down ropes? What if the heli chase is just a hallucination? What if the whole game is a hallucination? Man, I don't know what to think anymore xD
There's some sort of fallacy (is that the right word to use?) regarding receiving orders from a superior. It's very dangerous and painful for a soldier to disobey an order on moral grounds, because by doing so, they admit that every order that they have received in the past they have deemed appropriate. Even if they try to draw the line at a particularly atrocious request, anyone around them can point out that they are now a horrible person for not disobeying earlier. If they keep obeying orders, though... they can still blame their superior officer.
After Walker uses the white phosphorus, his squadmates hate him. But they keep following him, even after he's obviously lost his mind, and are searching for a way to escape and leave the blame on Walker. Before Adams makes his final stand, he is pleading for the enemy to shoot him. He found a way to be absolved of all responsibility...
I just wanted to point out something about that choice where you either fire at the civilians or fire into the air: the two achievement names. If you decide to fire at the civilians the name of the achievement is "The Line, Crossed". If you shoot into the air you get the achievement "The Line, Held". I would take this time to remind people that the name of the game is Spec Ops: The Line.
The whole game Captain Walker is trying to justify this mission by telling himself that he is there to save the civilians, and thus the ends justify the means. To me this moment is the defining moment of Walker's journey.
In addition I think it shows something that the narrative stays exactly the same whichever choice you picked. While I realize that's probably a design limitation or an oversight, it's interesting to think about the story in the context of that being a concious choice. One would assume that the correct choice is firing into the air, so the fact that he continues on exactly the same way if you choose to kill them says a lot about this second option. Not only have you failed your mission, but you are so divorced from reality that you have irrationally convinced yourself that by intentionally killing these civilians you are saving them.
Finally, when I ran into this moment and had the achievement pop I realized just how genius Yager is. The mechanics, athstetics, the narrative, all of this works towards the message. But they even thought to include the achievements into the story. The achievements! Never in a game have I seen the achievement names be woven directly into the story like that. It also makes you think about the name "achievement" if you take the first option. How is crossing the line an achievement here? I thought it worked well communicating things about common gaming tropes in the way the mechanics do.
Overall, a truely incredible piece of art.
This game really is a masterpiece. The main idea gives you a lot to think about, and there are so many genius details to discover ...
that's actually a very good point, this game is nuts.
At the point where the crowd is gathering, I didn't aim at the air or the ground, I fired at the crowd. I was invested in the characters at that point, and I wanted revenge on them, without even me noticing until the next mission has started. This game didn't drain me as much as it has other people, probably because I'm jaded or cynical, but that moment was a huge slap in the dangles, and honestly, it's one of the only moments I literally put down the controller and just started hugging myself for a while.
Really? I had just used my melee on the first dude who had pushed me up into the wall, had be using it to save ammo and such, got berated by the Radioman because I was using more often then I should...
And found out there were more then three choices on the sniper/corpse segment...
Adrian Shephard I seem to remember you could shoot up - in the air - top disperse the crowd.
This fucking game man. After I found out I killed civilians with white phosphorus, I nearly vomited. After firing on the crowd after my squadmate died, I literally had to stop the game and take a moment. I actually cursed the game out loud for putting me in the situation to do that.
+Dragos442 well i did the same and realized after that "i didnt have to shoot anyone probably" but thats the wonderful thing about this game - Putting us in the same mental state that Walker was experiencing or for that matter any cop/soldier when facing an outraged mob.
As the creator of this video analyzed, this game wasn't fun but is very thoughtful, I felt the same. It was a grind almost at points to progress the story, felt like I was repeating actions every mission. but the end was worth every single minute of the 7 hour campaign.
+Dragos442 like he knew that
yeah, it meant to emphasize what real war/battle can do to a person; PTSD, guilt, depression etc. this game is so deep!!
After I realized that there was no way to avoid the the white phosphorus scene, the shock went away. After Lugo died, I shot in the air. Then on second play through, I was an ass just to see the different outcomes.
Anima Kuro my grandmother actually remembers when white phosphorus was being thrown on civilians during ww2 by the allies (we're Italians)... the tale always gave me the shivers.
Has anyone ever noticed how the game incentivizes you to be brutal to your enemies? The game gives you maybe three magazines of ammo, gives infrequent refills, and enemies drop very little ammo. That last part (Enemies dropping little ammo) is only true if you kill them outright. The game, in fact, gives you more ammo for performing executions on the enemies. It's not a lot of ammo, but it is significantly more. This provides you the player with a couple of options.
1) Make your shots count (One shot one kill), which is somewhat made harder by the game's intentionally unpolished gunplay.
2) Constantly scavenge weapons off of enemies and use whatever you can find. Unfortunately, most of the weapons you pull off of your fallen enemies tend to be worse than your own equipment, thus being more of a band aid fix than an actual fix to the lack of ammo.
3) Intentionally give enemies wounds that are not immediately fatal (Melee attacks, or shots to the arms or legs) for the express purpose of performing an execution, there by giving you more ammo. If used expertly, you can even use this to fill up weapons that are rare and have rare ammo (Grenade launcher, Scar-L, ect).
I didn't really pick up on this until about half way through the game (about the same time the executions start to get much more brutal, as do the vocal responses to these actions), but once I learned it I wound up using it a lot to keep my ammo supplies at an adequate level for more or less the remainder of the game.
This mechanic alone is amazing in its subtlety, and it's inclusion proves (once again, mind you) how much thought and planning went into this game.
How about the dialogue when you get shot or kill enemies? In the beginning of the game, Walker really didn't comment on killing people and when he did, he would say things that a right-minded solider would say, like "Tango down." or "He's dead." Getting shot in the early game would result in a pained grunt or a "I'm taking fire!" This subtly changes as the game goes on; killing people will get you dialogue like "That's right you fucking traitor!" and getting shot will get you responses like "Fuck you!" This also happens with the commands that you give to your fellow soldiers, going from "Open fire on that target!" to "I want that motherfucker dead!" The subtly of it is the best part, it shows just how far Walker is descending into madness.
Novel Gamer madness his squadmates observe and respond to each other with in non verbal and verbal ways yet never once bunt walker upside the head and haul his crazy ass home for being unfit for duty, the game tries to hard to be a movie about the cost of war its not deep or new its just since its a game it gets a free pass at being innovative and thought provoking. your choices are all staged even the one to kill the snipers is preset the problem with games with choice even wide choice is they try in vain to be like real life or D&D if this exact game were to be on a table top D&D game you could do so many things differently and save civvies and talk down your enemies but you cant you HAVE to kill the marines its not like i can issue a command at them or use a code word that siginifed higher ups like president issue to disarm or hold one hostage while i tell his buddies to put down their weapons then talk to them no i gotta kill them to progress then get preached at for being forced to kill the modern shooter is dumb stupdity at its core they know it and they dont care its like if nintendo made a game where your supposed to feel bad cus mario stomps goombas. you cant have your cake and eat it too if there were more passive ways like iono stun grenades which military units have or use environments to make shift traps or wound them in the hand or leg then patch work them take or break their weapons or ammo and leave them alive and able to survive then yeah the game could preach at me if i just gun blazed but your only allowed to kill enemies those "shoot into the air" scenes only occur 2 times that scene and the hangin rest is on rails as every other junk shooter cept it tries and fails to be deep to anyone who reads a book or is a film buff. its deep only to people of lower boundaries of entertainment or genres.
It's also implied that this may not have been the exact play out of the events, since Walker apparently died at the beginning and the whole remainder of the game is a hallucinatory descent into hell.
He may not remember exactly how he got civilians or his squad mates killed, he just remembers that it happened and that it was his fault (regardless if he accepts that or not). So this "hell/purgatory" is just Walker's insane mind replaying the events leading up to his death in a disjointed, crazy way.
This could, however, just all be some bullshit the writer came up with to explain away inconsistencies in his script. It doesn't matter much since it still gets the point across, so he was probably like "Fuck it, Walker's already dead and insane!"
@@piscespeter3 You're never forced to do anything - the game tells you itself, "You could have stoped at any moment". That line is to you, not just your character. All those solely terrible choices? You made them, because "the game told you to", yet you could have always decided that the game was asking you to do things you never want to do, and you simply won't play.
I suffer from PTSD and this game portrays the mental disorder so well. Hallucinations and self blame, as well as impulsive anger and such are basically what happens to anyone with it.The game made me feel uncomfortable more than any other game because I see myself as walker cause I have had moments of deep hallucinations and being blamed by dead loved ones, just a great game all together
Do you feel like a hero?
shit...
Do you know the definition of insanity? Imagine your yourself in the frozen forest.
Yes
You are stiil a Good Person.
Real human bean...
Firstly, when Walker says "Wait! We've done this before" is a brilliant moment in the game, breaking the fourth wall AGAIN, and I don't know if you heard about a term called "Deja vu" where we all happen to say this very sentence, I've done it before.
Secondly, The "Well-trained Delta officers" were together with Walker on a mission before the events of the game, They had a sort of bond, and since all of the 33rd want the three of them dead, if they split up, they know they're going to die faster than if they were together, remember, Unity is strength?
Furthermore, Lugo never wanted to follow you, he clearly breaks down more than once, exclaiming he'll not go further, but Adams makes him realize that there is no going back, where will they even go? In the desert? Do what? Atleast when they're together they can think of a better solution, atleast, that's what they thought.
And even in the end Adams starts to point his finger at you, saying it's all your fault, but it's too late and now he doesn't really give a shit about anything, he is completely tired of Walker's bullshit in the second last chapter, and in the end he just want someone to put a bullet in his head, hence he "sacrifices" himself to get Walker into the tower.
P.S: I totally respect your ideas about the game's multiplayer and gameplay. They aren't flaws, they're exactly what they're meant to be, Satirical.
Thank you
yeah, this game is the perfect embodiment of a psychological-breaking-the-4th-wall-satirical-education game that effaces/criticizes its genre/itself to make a larger point. very brilliant! what a game!
I would actually rather go by "half of the middle-eastern people" today. Just look at them ... invaded by the US, had tons of wars, spawned terrorism in big masses and now fucked up under a religious extreme "government".
I love the build up for it at the start. They make it clear these men you're killing aren't trained military but civilians fighting for themselves who believe they're there to cause more damage. They then take that a step further making them US Military making it clear that most are just following orders and they do this with the little subtle talks between the military before you fight them. They humanize the enemies then demonize your character. It's beautiful how they slowly lead to that. Brilliant story telling.
The theory that the whole story is Walker in purgatory I like as it does explain *all* the criticisms you had with the story :D Especially the 4th wall stuff and the fact your two allies are following you, as they are references to the dualism Walker reflects more and more to the end: one focuses on the mission and is killed by the people, one focuses on the people and is killed so you can complete the mission.
okay, so i know that this video is kind of old, and that i'm kind of late to the party, but i just finished playing spec ops, and i just found this little tidbit in it that i think relates to whats being said here.
SPOILERS
I just finished playing this game, and another great use of mechanic as metaphor that I found is with the supporting characters. i found that the game gave each a distinct personality through their actions, instead of spoon feeding, or blatantly stating them. I found that Lugo is a long term thinker, while Adams is a more short term thinker. This theory is exemplified in several key moments in the game.
When you have to decide between saving two civilians, or saving agent Gould, Lugo will go for the agent, while Adams will go for the civilians. That is because these two characters are seeing the situation in two different ways. Adams, the short term thinker, simply sees that there are three people at risk, and that one way, you can save two, and the other way, you can only save one. This makes it an obvious choice for Adams, as his prime directive is to save lives. Lugo however, wants to save Gould, as he knows that he is their only chance for reaching Riggs and beating the 33rd.
Another example is later, when walker suggests using the white phosphorus on the camp below them. Lugo thinks this is a bad idea, while Adams is totally on board. I have to be honest, when I first played this part, I thought that was a huge shift in character for both of them, as before, Adams seemed to be more about being merciful, and Lugo seemed to be more about getting the job done at all costs (two typical shooter tropes). This was the moment that I sort of formulated this theory. You see, Adams is on board because he sees it as a quick and safe way to dispatch his enemies, while lug sees the act as excessive, and knows that in the long term, this form of overkill will prove to be a bad idea ( he was right)
the last example is when the crew encounter the radio man, and Lugo shoots him even though he is no longer a threat. Adams is outraged, because he would ever shoot someone who could not at that moment hurt him, but Lugo does it because he knows the power that the radioman has over the people, and how large of a threat he could be if left alive.
Even the mechanics of each character during battle serve as cool little pieces of evidence toworads this. Adams lives in the moment, and is therefore much more hands on and direct. If commanded to attack, he will grenade enemies in order to be the most efficient at the time (he will even use a grenade on just one enemy, instead of saving it for groups). If asked to silently take down a target who is close, Adams will sneak up behind them and slit their throat. Lugo, on the other hand, is the sniper, who will sit in the back and is more equipped to assassinate priority targets than Adams This also fits in to his sort of detached, future centric personality
this also fits in to each of the characters deaths. Lugo dies because of his lack of short term thinking. He is confronted by a group of locals, and appears to try to reason with them, or at least try to think his way out instead of act. This results in his death. Adams similarly, is given the chance to surrender, but, instead of risking on an unsure outcome, he decides to fight. This matches his character, as he would rather fight and know whats coming (either they all die, or he does) than surrender and not be sure of his fate.
All of this is just my opinion, and if you think I got something wrong, or if the whole idea is just bupkiss, please feel free to speak. I just though it was a great example of mechanics as metaphor, and was a very clever way to characterize your squad mates without bluntly stating it. thats a subtle little detail that i think is one of the many things that really adds depth to the game.
One thing that I found insanely intuitive that was built into the mechanics is the on-the-ground take-downs. I think that those alone are worth talking about at length.
First of all the game rewards you for killing a soldier with a melee take-down by giving you ammo for whatever weapon you happen to be carrying.
Second these kills actually change as the game goes on. In the beginning of the game they are usually very short and simple like a quick kick to the jaw and it's over, but as the game goes on they get longer and more gruesome, and the more powerful the weapon you're carrying the more demented the animation. By the end of the game if you're wielding a pistol you will begin to beat the enemies face until your fists are red with their blood, and if you are carrying some of the more devastating weapons, such as the grenade launcher, you will struggle with the other soldier for several seconds as you slowly choke them into unconsciousness then, with a jerk of the rifle, snap their neck.
You are forced to watch up close the brutal murders take place in the most graphic fashions, and then when they are done *BING!* good job on that horrible kill! here's some more ammo for your RPG so you can carry on efficiently wiping out thinking feeling people, you monster...
There's also the dialogue that Walker spouts out during the firefights. He starts out very focused and professional, usually saying something along the lines of "Tango down!" and "Target eliminated!" and slowly transitions to things like "Got that fucker!" You get the sense of Walker's sanity draining away and just all of the chaos building.
+Mozata Pumishmumi
Same goes for you team commands. "Fire on my target! Take down that shotgun!"
"I want him dead, now! Kill this son of a bitch!"
Yeah I realized that as well, I actually looked away a couple of times at the end when the bloodsplatters hit the screen after another execution
And you never had to do any of them. Why execute them? I walked through the game while only doing one execution, just to see what it was like. Even that is fucked up as hell. You had a choice not to execute anyone, you did it.
Mozata even his voice changes
The way I interpreted the "wait we did this already" was that he had a ptsd flashback, and he couldn't tell what was real and what was in his memory. He just keeps reliving all his sins in his head, and it was just a nod to his insanity. I don't think it was a 4th wall break at all
Forget the White Phosphorous moment, the part that really got to me the most was the part mentioned where the crowd has just lynched your sniper buddy and your other squaddie wants an order to open fire...I didn't even give it a second thought. After looking it up later, I was horrified that my thought process had been "screw it, mow 'em down" without any sort of alternative attempt.
That fucking white phosphorus scene, man. It was bad enough walking through the area with all the soldiers that were still alive, begging to either be saved or killed. I thought that was as bad as it was going to get. I was not prepared to see the civilians.
Edan R Same here dude. That scene made me feel dirty. It made me feel bad about me doing it. I had regrets of doing it. I had regrets thanks to a cutscene.
Well done Yeager, we read the message
Edan R I actually figured something wasn't right with the big cluster of people at the end and didn't fire on them... but after a few seconds the game counts it as them being hit anyway >.
Something crazy about this is that your GT or what have you is in the opening credits, credited as a "special guest". That is insane.
Remember, real heroes are not people who set out in life dreaming of being heroes. Real heroes are people who just did the right thing when someone had too.
When the whole civilian scene happened, I waited and hoped for a different way out, but obviously that wouldn't work, so I shot. I killed a single civilian, but stopped as soon as they ran. I was then pissed at my teammate for shooting another one or two.
And in the phosphorous scene, I genuinely did not see it coming. I thought it was a big group of enemies leaving a base or something (can't remember the exact circumstances), and was genuinely shocked when it turned out to be civilians. The most important thing when trying this, is to know little about it. To not sit there trying to be genre savvy, but to just play. All I knew about this going in, was that it wasn't a typical shooter and had something special about the plot that made it worth it.
You can avoid shooting the civilians, actually. You just have to melee them or shoot in the air to get them to leave.
The Willie Pete scene though, no choice there, yeah. Lord knows I tried.
I think the Lonesome Road expansion to Fallout-New Vegas does a lot of the same things that Spec Ops did here. Both are designed as a critique of player actions and their need to be a hero. It's especially notable in LR, because this is the ONLY quest where you have absolutely no choice or input for most of it...you can't kill the tunnelers, you have to launch the missile, and even the "choice" of whether to nuke or disable the bombs is a farce. In the end, the only control you have in that segment is small, personal things-the survival of Ulyssess and E-DE.
"There are 4 official endings and 1 unofficial ending. 1 in Konrad’s penthouse. 3 in the epilogue. And 1 in real life, for those players who decide they can’t go on and put down the controller." These game devs are brilliant.
goateeguy11221122 dark souls does hat to, the "real life ending" is that you stop playing the game, meaning your character becomes hollow
I feel that there was a Plot point Dan should have mentioned as one of their "methods of narrative through gameplay". And it was the surrender of the 33rd at the end of the game.
In most FPS's you kill hundreds upon hundreds of enemies and never think of what you are actually doing to their forces. In most games, they just keep coming endlessly, like military forces are just endless ranks of mindless grunts. But Spec Ops takes the time to actually show you what your killing caused. And the best way they do this is by the 33rd's surrender at the end, stating that they were all that were left. That you killed an entire infantry battalion except the 10+ men that surrendered to you. That is narrative brilliance through your actions as a gamer.
I thought those guys weren't even real tho
You talked about all this and you didn't even mention the massive elephant in the room, white phosphorus. That scene was easily the worst part for me, after doing that I felt absolutely awful. I truly felt like a murderer. Wow, just wow. What a game
I even reset the level and tried several methods to avoid doing that, turns out you can't. or at least you can't miss the civilians or go down into the mess earlier. I really felt like crap after that. I really did not want them to die, and the mother holding the child at the end f#%ked up. it was a great addition and really drove home the point but still, ugh!
+roguedogx Yeah, it's kinda unfortunate that some of the "choices" that the game railroads you for are ones where there's literally no other option. The WP scene is the one that sticks out, but there's a couple of options like that. Main reason they do that is for the powerful imagery at the end - I can't remember exactly how; it's been several years for me - but there's that one view of the WP victims that gets used as a centerpiece in the ending. Not having that because you opted to not use the WP would have detracted significantly (in my eyes) from the intensity of that ending.
Anybody remember the WP science from Homefront? Of course you don't. :(
rashkavar that would be the spotlight on tbe mother holding her child, if I am not mistaken.
Logan Hollis Yep. A burned silhouette thereof, wasn't it?
I watched part 1, then went and played the game. I've yet to watch this video, but all I can say is "what the actual fuck just happened?!" Christ in a bonnet, that was intense.
"You wanted to feel like something you're not: a hero."
It is when the game breaks the fourth wall and criticize the player for their choices that the game does something revolutionary.
You weren't forced to play this game, you kept playing because you were waiting for that happily ever after and you're the hero that saved the day.
But it won't come, just the realization that you aren't killing mindlessly cloned AI, but American Soldiers with lives and families and you are taking that from each and every one of them.
You aren't a hero, you are just a man trying to feel like you've accomplished something.
I'd hate to be a COD or Halo fanboy jumping into this game.
give this man a cookie
I was waiting to see how insane Walker could become.
I deliberately chose the "evil" epilogue because that's what I felt Walker would do.
Yay, people don't hate me for stating how this game is fucking dark and insane as fucking shit!
Sorry, just have been trying to avoid cursing all week, major pain in my ass.
you dont deserve to be hated by all those cod fanboys. im glad you could understand the whole purpose of the game
That’s bs
People complain about how boring the game is, and they really don't see that it's the point. It's a legitimate excuse for most games, but in this game, and in horror games, too, fun is NOT a part of the game. Fun doesn't have to be a given, and this game clearly proves that.
An interesting thing that many people overlook about actual conflict is that they are boring. There's a lot of sitting around while being uncomfortable waiting for something to happen. An actual offensive, often has hours or days in which nothing meaningful happens only to then have 30 minutes of contact.
TheSage555 True that a friend of mine that got deployed to Iraq spent several months of doing almost nothing in the same town just guarding it from terrorists. Once he got back he said he and his squad didn't even fire a single round during his tour.
Blackmagegalayis so... what youre saying is you purposefully made a boring game, the complained when people said it was boring. 10/10 observation. You must be a very fun person to be around.
Sunshine Vargosain I never made the game. And again, your argument is half-invalid cuz again, fun is not universal. There are horror games and other games that are meant to be something other than fun. This is a game not meant to be fun, so you aren't going to and didn't enjoy it
Blackmagegalayis Fun is like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. I found the game to be fun even though all the mechanics were "meh" at best. I'm a story guy, so if the story grips me, like this games' did, then my over-all experience with the game is going to be fun.
Am I the only one that enjoyed Spec Ops's gameplay?
Nah, I enjoyed it too. It's nothing remarkable, but it's passable.
It drove the narrative and echoed the player's descent with Martin. In the beginning I thought it was boring, but as I realized I was landing more headshots (no aim assist since I was playing on the highest difficulty that is initially unlocked), I was finding sick satisfaction in the dialog cues, or the slow motion effect. And I didn't really notice that the dialog changed from professional (Tango down) to monstrous (Got the fucker/AND STAY DOWN) or the executions also got more brutal. And then the game whipped around my feelings like a fucking hurricane
Alfredo I enjoyed it too
I enjoyed it except when I the game wouldn't let me take cover. Since I was playing at suicide level it was deadly for me.
The gameplay is good, but on FUBAR that mall section where you have to cover Adams and Lugo is literal hell
Heaviest part of the ending for me was that mirrored triangle where you decide who dies, during the count Konrad is aiming slightly left of Walker, pointing out the player. I just could not even
"People that you shouldn't be shooting, but it's a game and that's what you're supposed to do."
Hmm...kinda like, in war?
it's not exactly cut-and-dry like that. If you declare war, then people are probably going to die. Doesn't mean you have to kill every last guy, just enough to invoke surrender, or capture them as prisoners of war. There's almost always a nonlethal way, but they're too expensive or not what you think of first.
the Ipotatoe phone maybe from a winning perspective, but that doesn't make killing everyone the right moral decision.
the Ipotatoe phone
> what you're supposed to do
that refers to morality and what is right and wrong.
Rippertear AKA SDL Benjii TGPASOTSISAPROA(THR)STTLOYTYVMDFTBYTBCTSAASPIYH Yep.
the Ipotatoe phone
It's also how one quotes things, at least in pretty much every site but CZcams. E. G. Reddit.
There is a point in the game when the radioman says: "Where all of this violence comes from? Is this from video games? I bet it's video games..."
When it came to Gould or civilians, I didn't realize that I had to actually sneak away and kill someone to save the civilians. I thought you just had to sit there not saving Gould....so Gould choked to death on sand and the civilians were killed anyway.
Also, when it came to fending off the crowd, when walking through them didn't work, I just meleed someone. I didn't even think to shoot my gun into the air, but I didn't want to shoot the crowd.
I just got to the white phosphorus scene and I had to stop playing, at least for a while. Damn. That was... what the hell did I just do?
You mistook a civilian relief effort by the 33rd for an enemy stronghold, and used white phosphorus to wipe them out when you did not have full knowledge of the situation. But hey, the game made you do it; even if you were to reload your save or restart the campaign, you would find that you simply can't progress until you pull the trigger.
Yeah, also that's when the Wargames principle comes in: "the only way to win is not to play."
I got to the white phosphorous part when my ten year old brother was in the room... Jesus christ, this takes the cake as being the most sickening game ever--in a good way--I must re-think my FPS habits.
"It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him."
Two moments really stuck out for me that weren't guaranteed to happen:
1) The scene where you hallucinate a heavy as Lugo, if you die after killing him, the loading screen is different and when it reloads you see Walker clutching his head and closing his eyes. Then it's just a normal heavy you fight. The illusion only happens once (this happens at at least one other point in the game too).
2) From some point onward, the execution for a pistol is a completely different demeanor than the rest of the play. Walker stands up completely straight and shoots the victim twice like Walker's a stereotypical cold-hearted bastard of a villain killing a civilian. It was after I noticed that one that I noticed the other executions were more brutal than they previously were and the callouts were much more gruff and included more "fuck"s.
There is a hallucination where you see a soldier as Adams and kill him by repeatedly bashing his head with the butt of your rifle.
Lord Sir Crumpet I remember that one.
Doesn't quite fit with the ones I mentioned since it's unavoidable, but it shows just how unhinged Walker is.
Brandon Fedie Yeah. With your second point I like how Walker's appearance changes over the game. From solder to a burned, bloody wreck.
I think there is one point entirely overlooked in these two lovely episodes about Spec Ops - and that is that all the criticism they fan out about CoD like games, and players wanting to be heroes is applicable to American foreign policy, and how American people and specifically soldiers just buy into it because "that's what they're supposed to do". They want to be heroes. Protect their nation. Play the game humanity's been playing since before it was called humanity. But this game forces you to look into the moral ambiguity of it all. To what it actually leaves the American nation with (basically, collective PTSD). It challenges what many Americans think is obvious, and I love that.
damn! now I want to make a game where you die a little each time you cause damage.
also, excellent episode. watched it before, but couldn't stop watching again.
Dave Levy "to kill for yourself is murder. to kill for your country is heroic. to kill for entertainment is harmless." the most damning loading screen I have ever seen, and it perfectly falls in with what your saying.
Btw willy pete is underrepresented . Do not I repeat DO NOT look up white phosphorus wounds. It is truly mentally scarring.
So your comment made me immediately google image search the stuff and you were right.
Its gruesome shit. Id type more byt i wouldnt know what to type.
I just want to add that the 'opening credits' of the game (at least on the PS3 version) make a point of adding the player's gamer tag in as a starring title. It's just another weird off-putting element that plays on that notion of you as the star, playing the role.
Also in the steam version:)
That would fuck me up good. Like Special thanks! : You the player. For screwing up Dubai :)
It's great cause my steam name is Colonel John Conrad, so when i go through the opening credits it says "Including: Colonel John Conrad" and I'm like yeah no shit.
Robocloud75
Hmm, I played it on the PC too, and the game used the Windows user name, with which I was logged in.
DerAntimensch Were you playing it on Steam?
After watching this, and suddenly realizing what point this game is making as a whole in the gaming industry, I feel a little sick, considering the hundreds of thousands of virtual people slayed. If you think when playing a shooter, you stop wanting to shoot.
A solid run-down. I especially like what you said about having multiple choices implemented even if you are not told about their existence. Most games ruin the illusion of choice by making it seem too brazened "GOOD/BAD chose now" it comes across very shallow. More things should be left to player discovery as too many developers want to show you everything they have in the game which removes any feeling of discovery or the illusion of an existing world lore.
Indeed. When it came to rescuing the CIA man, I didn't even know that I'd made a choice within the game until I looked at the achievements list after completing it. I ran in, guns blazing, basically saying "fuck you guys, I'm saving that guy's ass". I made a choice, but it was integrated with the mechanics well enough that I wasn't completely aware I was making one. That's some pretty nice design right there.
Going back to this video after nearly decade, it's kind of crazy how inspirational this game became. Subverting expectations has become a negative meme, but back in 2013, it was a radical concept. Weird, huh?
Oh god, you could've shot the snipers? I didn't even see that as an option 'cos I thought they'd tear us apart in seconds, so I ended up thinking for ages and then killing the man who stole water. I figured that, since the other guy killed the water thief's family, then the water thief wouldn't be missed as much as the murderer, who might still have a family to take care of. Yes, this game made me advocate murder over stealing water. Fuck this game for getting in my head, worst game ever. 10/10.
worst game ever. 10/10. Dont want to play ever again.
I just finished this game less than ten minutes ago. Is it normal to feel nausea?
I felt nauseous after just about every decision from the white phosphorus scene onward. And at a lot of the places where they pile up bodies in a way that makes you go "oh god, what the fuck?"
Congratulations, Yeager got you too
Brendan Wojcik Same, on both accounts, I also feel horrible as a human being, but somehow, wiser I guess? I actually felt so bad that....!SPOILERS!
I let Konrad shoot me without even thinking of pulling the trigger, I just wanted it to end. But even then it doesn't. (Before anyone thinks I'm mentally ill now, no I'm not suddenly suicidal from a game, I just feel horrible cause the game sucked me in so bad and I did such horrible things on a quest to just finish it and hopefully be a hero, after the white phosphorus I quickly abandon that notion and just wanted to finish the game, cause that's all it was..... right?)
Fun fact, at the phosphorous scene you don't actually kill any civilians in-game. You kill a bunch of brute-enemies which are put in the trench by the engine. Then the cutscene makes it out as if it was actually filled with civilians, when in fact it was not. Even if it was, they should not have died from the attack- aiming in the general vicinity of the trench will cause it to be filled with the gas for no apparent reason, despite that occurrence defying any kind of physics or logic. Classic case of emotional manipulation to coax a player into coming to a false conclusion.
Employee 427 Bet you're fun at parties.
I've been watching through your channel as they come up in my side bar and I have to say, you guys are spot on with what I -hope- think are intelligent decisions and designs. The PTSD points in Spec Ops seem to be untouched in anything I've seen. The fact that we still don't really understand PTSD is terrible, and that the Call for Dollars clones make war a power trip rather than a soul shredding "I'm killing humans" experience is all the worse. I was at a military base with Cadets and we were going to a shooting range for some rifle training, just 20 rounds out of C7 assault rifles, and the first thing out of the instructors mouth was "This is not Call of Duty. If you even mention CoD on my range you will be OFF of my range." He did it too, a couple of guys were kicked off and posted sentry on the range entrance. When I was holding the rifle I focused on the paper target and did pretty well for my first time with a rifle. Afterwards I thought of how the range points to a the battle field, and realized that the paper target may well have been a person and in that aim-fire zone I probably would've shot that faceless target. That was a little under 2 years ago and I still remember it clear as day. I can only imagine what deployed soldiers are going through actually shooting at people rather than paper. Clone for Money copies push all that away. I hope that more games will use the PTSD point of view at some point and highlight that the game isn't like war. It's a game.
I'm pretty certain that the more realistic games get the less violence we'll have in them. Violent games are less popular the closer players are to actual violence.
Say that to Bethesda and their progression in violence since Morrowind up to and including Skyrim and Fallout 3/New Vegas. While a lot of elements of the new Fallouts, and even some of the elements of Skyrim fall into the Uncanny Valley, they're still more realistic than Oblivion and Morrowind, and feature more violent content to boot (Especially Raiders/Fiends/Super Mutants in the Fallouts decorating their hovels and bunkers with mutilated corpses, organs, and limbs).
I actually expect that, if/when Fallout 4 comes out, we'll get some pretty hefty and realistic ballistics wounds compared to 3/New Vegas just because of the effects added to the engine and models for Skyrim. I mean, burned corpses actually looking like charred flesh (especially the still-living and heavily burned body of the leader of the Assassins in Skyrim), the models and faces being more detailed, one can only assume given time and resources the violence and gore of bethesda games, be they fallout or elder scrolls, can only get greater in detail and severity.
Also, look at Dead Island for another example. Great models, faces, and gore physics where you can chop an enemy's limbs off at the wrist/ankle, elbow/knee, shoulder/thigh, crush the skull or decapitate, break limbs so they flop around uselessly. If nothing else, Dead Island got gore and viscera done well, down to the way blood pools and spreads when spraying from a severed limb, and that's not even counting for use of fire, electricity, acid, or just plain brutality stripping flesh down to the bone on the torsos and limbs if it can't dismember.
The war is violent. The downfall of a civilization is violent. There is nothing more frustating than you unleash a entire magazine in someone and he just stand there almost bloodless, with a perfect body, as he was some kind of doll. Whenever violence in games get more realistic and start to really shock people, they will think more about they actions in-game and outside of it.
Thanks for ruining Fps's for me Spec Ops...
SOTL ain't an FPS ;D
I doesn't need to be its not just focusing on third person games but all shooters.
Thegreatgamecreator he's said their would be spoilers
Trainer Popplio he's not talking about CZcamsr, but the game itself and how it gives us, the players, a whole new perspective on all shooter games out there
"You cannot understand, nor do you want to."
One of the first of those odd loading screen messages that showed up for me. Looking back, I realized it's there to subconsciously clue you in that, though you continue to pursue the game's storyline to find out what's really going on in the city and reach a resolution, this moment will never come and continuing on will only lead to more confusion and regret.
Although I didn't think about it that hard at the time, and I don't think anybody else did either.
I love that you covered this point. This video made me think a bit more in-depth at player choice and story driven motivation. You examples are spot on in delegating the concept to the viewer's perception of the concept. And some of the ideas presented, as well as your talking points, helps me to consider alternatives in my own designs.
Actually, after serving I do not play FPS anymore. I don't get feel joy when playing.
Dude what have you done! Now I want to get back to this very traumatic game just to pick this details! Damn you!
This is one of my top 5 favorite games and honestly I'm just now getting this message, I never looked at some of these topics talking to me as a player, but just the character Walker
Funny how you mentioned the choises you made, because I did the exact same thing at both of those moments. And it really is amazing how this game actully allowed you to use your brain and choose options that weren't explicitily told to you. I really can't think of any other game that does somehting like that (in the context of a moral choise I mean).
Don't forget about the visual setting, the almost supernatural sand storms, the death of the opulent capitalist haven of Dubai. Oh and the great music, perfectly set up to great combat scenes. this game is a masterpiece like no other.
I can't play modern shooters anymore after Spec Ops. Once you experience the white phosphorous moment and the downward spiral afterward, there's nothing fun about gunning down nameless thugs while the game gives you achievements for it, rather than punching you in the stomach and making you feel sick afterward.
Yup, I found it exceedingly hard to play 'realistic' modern shooters for a long time after Spec Ops. I kept questioning why I used to enjoy shooting soldiers, and how the game justified shooting people by making them the 'other guy', when really they're people just like yourself.
Spec Ops took this to an interesting place by managing to make US soldiers seem like the 'others'.
***** That's kind of leaning away from the point. I guess that was for the sake of getting into but, but in the long run it was about of the people that you're shooting as people instead of game achievements,
***** I tried to play this game again, but physically couldnt do it, knowing what was to come. I feel like everyone really needs to experience this work of art
apc467 I killed myself after playing Spec Ops. I just felt so bad for viritually killing bots in videogames, And for pretending to be mario and squashing innocent turtles :(
Simon Mortensen And, some efforts are lost on people like this. ^ If you don't understand the psychological experience, that's fine. Don't try to step on other's that do, though. It just makes you look stupid.
Daniel...my god IMHO this was one of the greatest episodes you have made (Not the others were crappy) I played through Spec Ops and didn't even notice the other choices throughout the game. Playing through again so I can do that.
Took me seven years, but I finally got to play this game. Thanks for making these videos that put it firmly in my wishlist! It was an incredible experience.
Am I the only one who actually found the gameplay rather fun?
+Eggdrasil Warthog No, I actually founded rather good. At least on pc the controls are smooth. "Enjoyed" the gameplay more than Gears of War.
+Eggdrasil Warthog
Thank god, I thought I was the only one... But then again, I don't really play many shooters so maybe it's just because I can't compare.
I thought the cover system was really good, and I didn't really have problems with mouse sensitivity (like other people seemed to have).
Two things i didn't like were: IIRC, melee attack is always mapped to the same key as vaulting over obstacles, meaning that if you hit the button too early, you pointlessly swing your gun instead of jumping over stuff (which usually results in death on the highest difficulty :/ ). And then second minor thing was that you stand up after you've given your buddy a shot of adrenaline, even if you were crouching and in cover before, which is also pretty dangerous and sometimes results in a stupid death.
+Eggdrasil Warthog I played it on pc with a ps2 controller and I thought it was pretty fun.
Dragos442
I actually found those remarks a little comical
Spec Ops sounds pretty good to me... it's nice to see a shooter game that doesn't assume the player is a egotistical preteen.
Actually it does, and then slaps the player across the cheek
Shalashaska A slap across the check is an understatement. The game essentially says "Fuck you, and fuck everything you fucking hold dear to gaming." before promptly fucking the player in the ass with a mindfuck on the levels of Bioshock's mindfuckery.
It's good for kids to get a good moral smack in every now abd again
very thought-provoking, mind-bending, mind-numbing, educational, gut-wrenching, heartwarming, emotionally drenching, depressing.. what a game, man! what a game!!! in fact, this is more than just a game!!
At the end when you were talking about choice, that made me think back to infamous maybe the second game I ever played with moral choice next to fabel. There is a moment in the game where you are asked to choose to save a loved one or a large group of people, I found myself looking at the obstacles I was asked to over come from a gameplay perspective and I realized within the amount of time they give you to save everybody it is absolutely possible to save everyone, I actually saved the loved one first only because in my head I knew I could simply jump across the gap and save everyone else. But then in mid air as I was nearing the tower the game slowed and went into a cutscene forcing the negative outcome to happen even though as a player I would have been able to change that. It was the only evil choice I made in the entire game and I could have easily reloaded the file to keep my play through perfect however I felt that it said more about who my character was as a hero and was a turning point for both of us in terms of his life and in terms of how I veiwed the game and the limitations of my decisions
At the start, Lugo says in response to a joke from Walker ;
"If I wasn't a hardened killin' machine..that might have hurted."
In some way, I belive it was intended as foreshadowing of Lugo, but also of every player who belived that the game sucked , or that didnt got the idea, or simply thought that they were not to blame.
Also, if you never stopped to think what you were doing, or worst HAD FUN with this game...
That line was said directly to you.
If it is.
Shame on ya
Do you blame the solider or the politics's that drive them?
Heartless no, Following orders yes.
Carzeyday Same Thing. Following orders is no excuse for committing atrocities. Soldiers are not mindless machines unless they choose to be. It is up to them weather or not they cross the line, not their commanding officers.
Mistress Bedlam Ya know what they do to solider who do not follow orders right?
Carzeyday And that justifies their actions? If someone says to me "if you don't go into that school and murder all of those children I'm going to kill you" does that make me right for going in there and killing those kids? No, it doesn't. Self preservation doesn't excuse atrocities any more than "following orders" does. If you have to choose between taking a bullet to the head and becoming a monster, take the bullet.
Mistress Bedlam In the united states we are above killing our troops unless they fire back at your own squad. No, we dishonorably discharge people, which is a black mark.
But since,you want to bring morality play into this.
You do know. the only people who do in fact use child soldiers are usually the people we fight right?
And really, you kind of have to train the humanity out of a man. Why?
Because, not everyone plays war right.
Some used fully grown men and machines.
Some use agents
Some use children.
War is a bloody and horrible thing.
But It is what humans have done for ages.
And mainly because of political reasons.
The only reason we do not strap children with weapons is to us as a 1st world nation, feel that is not moral.
In conflict we lose morality, we lose ourselves.
We want to live. to survive.
I'm sorry but It is so easy to judge when you know you will never actually be put into the kind of ordeal.
It is easy for me to site here and type to you.
Because their people willing to do what we are not or in some cases can't.
I'm sorry, but people who usually are on the morality pole are usually the first to crack when enough weight is put on them.
One of the messages on the loading screen should be, "you're reading too much into this".
Ok... I played Spec Ops years ago (probably a few months after it came out... around the time I discovered this channel), but I'm now playing the Uncharted games for the first time (the Nathan Drake Collection versions) and OH MY GOD so much is taken straight from them.
It's always in the back of my mind when playing... Which I think is a good thing, even if it's profoundly changed my experience from what it was "meant" to be.
I love it!
I've watched this video so many times by now, and I love it more and more each time :)
Spec Ops: The Line will always be one of my favorite games ever, and each time I watch this video I feel like going back and playing it again (though I always end up not doing it, because I'm scared it won't live up to my expectations after the first mind-blowing playthrough ;) )
i think when Walker says "we've done this before" in the helo was a reference to the fact that that scene was supposed to be like all the other games like CoD or BF..the game opens up with that scene to make you think its a rip off CoD and then makes you do it again saying "we've done this before" showing that all the games like CoD are the shame shit over and over, killing tons of people just because it says to and doing unrealistic things like blowing up 20 littlebirds with a minigun...its another mockery of the players of CoD. every year they go out and buy the next game to do that same things with the same message of "War is Awesome!" when in reality, it is quite the opposite, which is the message of this game. When you first start it you were like "YEAH take that!" and you shoot and the enemies without a SINGLE reason to, literally none, just because thats what you do in shooters, kill the 'bad guys'. you assume that the enemies in the littlebirds are the arabs in the next level, when in reality, they are americans trying to stop you.
Thanks for Introducing me to Spec Ops: The Line, it became one of my favorite games of all time...
this explains so much thank you
Hey, here is another point of view of the game.
I really enjoyed the gameplay, let me explain:
I haven't played a military shooter since the original Battlefield (That I loved).
So i decided to play it on "hard" since I have heard from many game reviews that these kind of games have gotten easier the last few years.
I loved it, I died so often, And some of the decisions you have to make are similar to the kind of questions you get in officer training (I am a soldier in the Israeli defense forces and my commanders wanted me to go to officer training), the whole breaking the forth wall parts are fun although often used in many indie games (I play a lot of those).
I really liked how in the end the remaining soldiers of the 33rd are saluting you, like actors in a play its a nice metaphor for what war is or can be how futile and meaningless.
Spec Obs: The Line is the only game I can truly say I am scared of replaying, I am not someone who is easily frightened, or someone who is very effected by the actions in the game, even in the games darkest moments I still was pretty solid about it,
The thing that got me the most though was the times where you start blacking out in combat, it is this this desperate drive and fighting, you are having an episode in the middle of a firefight, shooting mannequins and seeing the face of your dead friend. What is more upsetting is that you still come out alive, everyone is dead but you. I have played games where you play as a psycho, I enjoy games like Borderlands, but this moment actually made me sick when I thought about it after the fact, I like playing as a psycho, but this game makes YOU the psycho.
And that line about wanting to be something you're not, a hero, gut punched me, like a horse's kick to the abdomen
+Jessy Lloyd I have played scary games before, been bored with them, and put them down never to pick up again, but this is a game that I WANT to replay, but I just can't... it's like a box with a rapid cat inside it, I want to feed the cat but I don't want to get my eyes clawed out.
One load screen said something along the long the lines of, "The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatants. But this isn't real, so why should you care?" That really messed with my head, as if every shooter I had ever played was leading to that devastating gut punch of a line.
I just finished Spec Ops, and I don't know if I'll enjoy any game the way I used to ever again.
Writing in 2021, going to play this game for the first time because I was binging EC and this game just struck my interest. It wasn't easy to find a copy, but I got one for about $25 and it was worth every single penny. I loved the story of this game and how I found myself falling into the traps the game laid even though I knew they were coming. During the infamous mortar scene, I found myself getting a rush of excitement when I saw all the 'soldiers' falling, until I realized like Walker that I had made a MAJOR mistake. Just a brilliant game, and thank you for introducing me to it!
Best video of yours channel. And one of the best games I have every played.
I think this video is awesome and I agree with everything, except... This game IS fun. I had so much fun playing it and for once, well, for once in a good long time, there was more to this shooter than a high KDR.
Great break down!
If this really is a way to revitalize the Spec Ops series...where the hell do they possibly go from here?! This was an explosion of human madness and despair. If they ARE planning on doing a follow up how in the fuck do you top that?! Hopefully not like Farcry 4 where you basically just make the same game with a slightly different coat of paint and elephants.
Spec Ops: Frontline, a tale of trauma, misery, humanity and elephants.
I agree. This game was just so heavy\y, it's hard to imagine anything topping it. At least in FarCry, it has AMAZING mechanics to justify a sequel, even if the story isn't nearly as good.
Especially since they insulted their target audience.
I don't like shooters, I think they are stupid, so I don't play them, but I do play other video games. If I paid $60 to be called a dirtbag, you better believe I'd never give that company another dime.
strangeyoungman That's actually a good point. XD I love this game. But I honestly feel like this was more of an experimental art piece than a game or a franchise. That's really what I'm getting at. This doesn't feel like something that can be turned into a franchise
I'm actually not certain why they used the Spec Ops franchise as a launch point for this game. I would say brand recognition if the last game in the series hadn't came out a decade prior, and wasn't super popular to begin with.
As someone said before, I don't believe the intention was to reboot a franchise or make sequels. I feel like it was more of an experiment than a game, and it's clear they were going for a Bioshock-esque shock factor that would get people buzzing. 2K perhaps (and I feel most likely) saw the parallels in this game's storytelling and Bioshock's and got behind it, hoping for that kind of reception while Infinite was still cooking.
It's a great story, but it lacked the gameplay and production values of Bioshock and even it's competitors in the same genre, so this game ended up more of a cult hit than a CoD killer as 2K probably wanted.
So nice to see this game get the credit it deserves, I was blown away by it, left me feeling slightly damaged, but in a good way. Much respect to the developers and extra credit for giving the it the showing it deserves
I love how even the Art on the cover shows the theme, as it is slowly falling apart at the bottom...but not obvious enough to understand before you play the game^^
I couldnt finish the game. Just, man, what they do with your head.
That's actually one of the "endings" the devs expected, even called it the "good" one.
I have dropped the game two times and started over by now... still not finished - I feel really strange playing it...
ah so you got the good ending.
unmessable12 I still think the perfect ending is if at the end you shoot the US Troops that came to rescue you.
Walker picks up their radio and says "Welcome to Dubai, Gentlemen"
TheLKStar Wait really?
Warning: Long comment. I have a lot to say.
As much as they talk about how great Spec Ops is at giving additional choices, I have trouble taking some of it seriously. Mainly because of the white phosphorus moment.
When I first played through it, I knew that there was going to be a fabled 'Really Bad Thing' the game would make me do. Yahtzee himself said that he 'felt like shit' after playing it.
So, when I got to the point where White Phosphorus was introduced, alarm bells went off in my head. Still, I chose to use the weapon. I started firing at tanks and soldiers and such, clearing the area. I died once or twice, I think, because it took me a while to get used to the new mechanics.
Then I saw that one tank at the very end, with a huge crowd of people to the right of it.
Thought #1: Sweet, look at all the people I can kill with one hit.
Thought #2: Wait, no. No. Noooope. Something's not right.
Thing is, I HAD to blow up the tank, before I could continue. I did my best to shoot the very edge of the tank, AWAY from the civilians. Unfortunately, the game would have none of that.
Apparently, they were standing in oil or something[please forgive my poor chemistry, I'm not sure if oil would actually do that], because it caused a chain reaction and the entire area lit up.
When I saw that they were civilians, instead of feeling upset or angry with myself or anything like that, I just rolled my eyes. This wasn't just a case of 'I didn't know this would happen'; I had actually TRIED to prevent it! But the game did it anyway.
After I beat the game, I replayed that chapter. Instead of using the White Phosphorus, I just opened fire on the soldiers. Sure, I'd still be massacring troops, but at least the civilians would survive.
You literally CAN'T progress without using the phosphorus. You can't even rappel. If you try to just shoot your way through, then an infinitely-respawning group of snipers will kill you.
Yes, I know that right before this moment there's the line,
"There's always a choice."
"There's really not."
And one of the major themes of the game is how
But, it just irks me that EC builds Spec Ops as a game full of hidden choices and such, yet the one major moment in the game which EVERYONE remembers and talks about is forced.
(Also, just talking about this video: I wish they had given more specific examples. For example, they say that the game breaks the fourth wall often. But, the only example they list is the Loading Screen tips. Which we're kind of used to breaking the fourth wall.
I'm not exactly claiming that anything they said was WRONG, just... it would have been nice if they were a little less vague, at times. Maybe it's just me.)
Garaway (Last comment, I swear:
I know that they say that some of the fourth-wall-bending doesn't make sense in the video. To add to this:
When you're forced to chose which prisoner to save/execute, if you start shooting at the snipers, one of your partners shoots the ropes hanging the prisoners. But, at the end, it's revealed that this was just a scenario made up in Walker's insane mind, and that the 'prisoners' were just rotting corpses. So, then, why would one of your partners shoot them down?)
I think, unfortunately, that you suffered from something a lot of games and movies suffer from now, spoilers. The white phosphorous scene is supposed to take you by surprise, and that surprise is what is utterly depressing, how it flips from "YES I cleared it!" to "SON OF A BITCH THAT WAS PEOPLE!?". You were supposed to sense something off, maybe by the screams seeming much less like soldiers, but not outwardly assume it.
I also support the developers decision to force you to kill them. It is the key point of the issue, and couldn't have been handled so well any other way. If only soldiers suffered from the white phosphorous, then you can justify the effects away. I know I did. Yeah, I felt bad about the still burning, crawling soldiers, but they attacked ME, they were my enemies, and while they didn't deserve it all, they still were also at fault, especially because the mortar and shells were theirs.
However, the use of white phosphorous in Vietnam and Iraq, were this issue arose, was not its grisly affects on combatants, but rather the poor, innocent souls burned just by being close to combatants. the children mutilated and scarred, the families torn apart and burned. If the developers allowed you to only kill soldiers with it, would it have that effect? I don't think it would. It addresses the issue properly.
As for your comments on 4th-wall breaking, yes, I to think too many of those moments were in screens. However, and I hope this doesn't seem too desperate, I think it also makes sense. Loading screens always break the fourth wall, breaking up the narrative with normally helpful hints or obvious info. It makes them safe, as a part of the game that doesn't have any real connection to the actual plot, and a direct comment to the player, not the character. So by interjecting such ideas, they break that safety, and directly address the player with the plot. It makes it sure that the player doesn't just see it as stuff that is character only, but also addresses the person playing.
Finally, I think the scene with the bodies would have to go that way, for two reasons. One, if the player saw that the bodies were not actually treated like living human beings, the choice is lost. The later reveal of that scene means less if you knew it all along. Secondly, it seems like it would be the right thing to do anyways. You don't want to leave someone hanging. Also, and this is desperate, I recognize that, Walkers men may have been trying to help their obviously delusional commander, by following his orders anyways.
I do, however, hope you enjoyed the game anyways, and sorry MY comment is so long.
Hello ....first of all,please excuse my bad english,but i have to reply on this ;-)
I found the white Phosphor Sequence brilliant,but totally missunderstood by most People (no offence....ist just my Opinion,and maybe i am totally wrong).
First of all you are right,that you have no alternative to launch the phosphor,to finish your Mission,but that is exactly the thing Walker would say.
Only because you had no ingame choice,doesnt mean the game forced you to do it.Only because he had no other choice to finish his selfproclaimed Mission,he was not forced to fullfill it at all.
The Player has in this Moment,the exact options,the protagonist has:
A)Doing everything nessesery,to reach konrad
B)Stop the Madnes and Quit
Neither The Player or Walker thought about Option B.
Youst think for a moment about what the Reviewer said,about the last lines in the Game" You came here and did everything you did to be something you are not..... a Hero"
In this Moment,Konrad was not talking to walker....the game itself was talking to the Player.
Walker was on a scouting Mission(!)....he could have stopped his Crusade everytime,he just did not want to.The Player could turn of the Computer everytime,but he just did not want to.His desire to play through the game,just mirrors Walkers desire to finish the Mission.Not even take quitting as an valid option,shows how unable we all are to think outside the Box.In this Moment we have exactly Walkers Mindset.He never takes responsibility for the atrocitys he caused,Instead he keeps looking for excuses,in how he had no choices.
One Loadinscreen evan explicity asked "Why dont you just go home?"
Having no choice ,was an Illusion,the Game created for us.
You point out a very good point, that the player could always step away, but never does. That is, in itself, a major choice
also I love how this 2 year old game is still raising debate
Wow, I can't believe how amazing that game was. The entire experience left me feeling shellshocked at the end. There were so many minor details that I didn't even notice [The constantly descending, fade to white, etc]
When it started getting "real," I found myself believing in the storyline, screaming at death screens that "You made me do this!!!" That made it easier to emphasize with the main character. I have to say, watching part one of this episode made me aware of what was going on, but I truly didn't expect this much of meta storytelling so early on. It really came out of nowhere. Great recommendation!!
I'm reminded of a game from about 20 years ago. For the life of me I cannot remember the name. It was a low res point and click adventure game that played and felt like a typical gritty noir game filled with cliches for most of its length, with a sucker punch of a twist near the end.
The protagonist wakes up with amnesia in a seedy hotel room. He starts getting messages telling him he's an agent sent to assassinate various enemies that are part of a grand conspiracy to destroy the world. You spend most of the game finding and killing targets in increasingly disturbing and graphic ways, but it's necessary because you're saving the world, right? Except it turns out the protagonist is basically a psychopath killing random people because voices in his head tell "him" (really you, the player) to do so.
A good novel take on the same basic idea is A Simple Plan. The protagonist tells the story in first person as he and some friends try to find a way to keep and split a satchel filled with millions of dollars, but things keep going wrong, and the protagonist keeps doing things more and more morally questionable, but it happens so slowly and the voice of the first person narration so calm and reasonable in its justifications that it isn't until the final, truly horrific act of violence, that you realize you've been following a slow descent into madness while sympathizing, if not agreeing, with the reasoning being given.
Game's called Dreamweb.
I JUST finished this game, I did not even attempt to disperse the crowd with gunfire, or save both the hanging victims.
By that point I was so numb to the madness that I just opened fire without a second thought. And then I realised that I had just mowed down a crowd of civilians. Why? Because the guy shoved me. A civilian pushed me, and so I shot him and his friends dead without hesitation.
When that revelation struck I had to stop playing and bask in how brilliant, and how outright twisted that was.
i was kind of alluding to that very thing. i fired because that was what the game had taught me upfront, that you need to kill everything to progress.
Dah Zodiac My big "what the hell did I just do" moment, was when that one guy (can't remember his name) is pinned under the burning truck. No one deserves to be burned alive, but at that point I was so filled with hate and anger I just walked away and REALLY enjoyed his screams of pain.
Only after I stopped playing for the day did I realize what I had done, and I genuinely felt sick with myself, and I really had to hand it to the writers for being able to instill emotions that strong within me.
ThePortableTornado Me to. I thought that ofcourse he should burn, the guy doomed the entire city. But who did that actually?
Walker himself says that he was fooled. But it was made pretty clear that we were going to destroy the city's entire water supply.
JasanQuinn I did something similar to you, I was angry that Lugo died i wanted to see the civilians pay for doing that to someone who had my back through the whole story, and once I had done it I had sit back for awhile, some of those people were just watching they didn't do anything and I killed them but long before this moment I had to sit back and just wonder why I am doing this, why do I keep moving forward. it's a powerful game
It was a long time coming, as this game was sitting on my recommended by Extra Credits and they've never steered me wrong before on recommendations. I should point out, I was definitely not the target or core audience for this, but it is a shining example of what we as consumers and content creators should strive for. I don't play CoD or Battlefield. I'm honestly not really good at shooters. But the narrative is what shines here, and I genuinely didn't want to do the things the game was forcing me into. That takes a lot to draw any audience in...thanks for pointing me to this. I can't say that it was a fun experience, but I certainly found it to be one of the more satisfying ones.
Well I just found a game I want for Christmas. Thanks EC!
prepare for a holiday feels train.