Aesthetics of Play - Redefining Genres in Gaming - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
- How do we define game genres? Turns out, we do so very haphazardly and imprecisely. What exactly makes up a game genre, and how does that understanding limit or enhance our game design?
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(Original air date: October 17, 2012)
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www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunic...
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♪ Intro Music: "Penguin Cap" by CarboHydroM
bit.ly/1eIHTDS
♪ Outro Music: "Bra Relocating" by Justin Tense
ocremix.org/remix/OCR02442/ - Hry
I so wish I could have played Minecraft before the Internet. Imagine a pokemon red type of community, where you only really learned new things like the nether, or the end, or new crafting recipes through friends at school. The sense of wonder and discovery would be insane.
From experience there was a little of that wonderful discovery and a lot of not even knowing that stairs or doors were a craftable thing for 6 months.
If you played Minecraft as it was being made, that did happen. At least, if you were like most people and didn't read the patch notes. You didn't need the internet to play the game, the game wasn't as well optimized as it is now, and back in beta there wasn't a wiki. New features of the game would pop up on youtube videos of people's builds, and everyone would be like "OMG what *is* that!?"
If you only picked up the game after it's release though, then yeah, you missed all of that. If you want that experience with games nowadays you need to be in them for Early Access or Open Beta.
This is why I love the idea of a procedural crafting game. I have no clue how you'd implement this, and it seems impossible, but having a collaborative yet mysterious crafting experience would be incredible. Games like Elite: Dangerous attempted this, with the mechanic of planet discovery, but there was no feeling that you contributed massively to any global effort.
although the internet did make some aspects of minecraft way more cool, like the insane things redstoners came up with and figured out to automate everything (a good example is theminecraftmuse if that deprecated channel is still on youtube). Someone people made freaking clocks out of redstone because why not
+Jonathan Faber Heck, people made GPUs and multichannel speakers with minecraft
1. Sense pleasure
2. Fantasy
3. Narrative
4. Challenge
5. Fellowship
6. Competition
7. Discovery
8. Expression
9. Abnegation
Long ago, these nine nations lived in harmony. But everything changed when the Competition nation attacked.
@@alexnobody1 Oh God, too accurate.
@@alexnobody1 This is actually hilarious because competitive players LOVE to attack. 😂
Just rewatched this video again. I think this is one of your best episodes.
Marcus Norton yeah top quality
Just two days ago, I asked someone if they had played Portal, and they responded "I'm not really a fan of first person shooters". I was taken aback for a moment, thinking "Is Portal a FPS? Oh, I guess it kind of is..." I explained to my friend that while portal is first person and I guess you have a gun, there is no running and gunning, and no killing people - it's all puzzles and physics. She was surprised and interested. This is what happens when we mislabel games. I hope she plays Portal soon.
that was one letter off
+CaptainSwift11 I'm sorry?
+kelenloth It just bothers me
+CaptainSwift11 no what I mean is I don't see it. Which letter?
Well *Postal* (2), one letter off, is a first person shooter ;)
I love this art. The derp faces are hilarious, the scenarios look really pleasant
I know! Dan just looks so cute this way :)
Yeah
Dear Extra Credits team,
I would be interested in that topic episode you suggested; Difficulty VS Challenge.
You've done an episode on Depth VS Complexity.
"So, Steve! I see you've been playing a game called "Last Dream" a fair bit recently. What is it?"
"Oh, it's a Submission-Discovery game with Fantasy aspects!"
"This is why we aren't friends."
Dear ExtraCredit team,
It’s been more than A year that I listen to you. And you repeatedly blow my mind.
You guys are awesome.
Thanks.
You should do a Ted Talk
+ƃɹǝquǝʇʇnɹ ɯıɐɹɥdǝ This has way to few upvotes!
This whole video has way too few upvotes! Bring em on! :D
jaaaaa that would be awesome
I think he doesn't want to show his face.
+Aerohk who? James or dan because james has a channel for him talking straight to the camera about games and dan has shown up from time to time on stream videos.
It amazes me how conversational you guys are in each episode. You never come across as 'giving a lecture' to people. It's like you're talking to us directly in an intelligent, respectful way. That's what I love about this show. Keep up the great work!
Man, you people are amazing. I know this video (amongst others) is old, but I've only recently been introduced to the channel yet it's like you're reading my mind. Even when you take a different approach to a subject compared to what I have, you wind up coming to almost the same conclusion. (The differences are usually that yours are much more coherent, insightful, and well-articulated). I don't know whether to feel validated for having these thoughts or humbled by not arriving at any particularly original or groundbreaking conclusions, lol.
I just gotta say, I find the way the hands are drawn in this episode adorable.
I think it's worth noting that, when Bethesda began the Skyrim project they first created the logo you see in the game. "What does this game feel like" they asked themselves. So it is definitely possible and has worked wonders where a developer ALSO approaches the game from an aesthetic perspective.
Yooo! so this is episode is a year old and we haven't yet heard of James' contributions to the core Aesthetics of play. And I think we'd all benefit from the knowledge of this :) so can we please? (mailbox episode maybe?)
Out of a lot of great Extra Credits videos out there, this might be the single most useful one.
Honestly, this is the most interesting and helpful episode in your entire channel. This helped me so fucking much.
One of your best videos to date!
Curious though, what are the other "genres" James has added beyond these eight?
This was right up my alley! Just what my small team needed. Thank you!
That's it! You did it! You earned a new subscriber!
Loving your videos so far!
Wow, this is the first time I watch one of your video and I'm really impressed. This is a deep reflexion, way deeper than a review, or a review of reviews. I mean it's nearly philosophia (for those who really know what does this word mean). This is the kind of things that I would make my best to push devs, players, every videogames professionals, even politicians creating laws about videogames watching it.
Great work dude =]
I've been seeing your videos for over a month now and really like to see you guys do one on game analysis. Describing the formal and dramatic elements with the dramatic arc of a game. This will also help in making a video to say about the difference between difficulty and challenge.
Thanks for making these videos! You manage to teach me something new and interesting in almost every one.
Amazing video and incredibly interesting information! Going to check out that MDA paper now
"We can do a whole episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge..."
...well, please, do that. :3
I recently went over this in my Game Design class, and the idea for the word Submission was that human's like to be told what to do, and not have to think about it, which is pretty much similar like zoning out.
So in that sense, it would be a lack of player agency.
my fave episode so far. absolutely enlightening
Came back to watch this again. One of my favorite episodes.
good stuff i like the categories you chose for game types organizing my games has always been tough but using this will make it much easier.
Probably my favorite episode yet!
I want to squeeze him so much. Love you guys, you are geniuses!
Amazing work as always :)
Great episode. very deep and thought provoking
Love every one of these videos, makes me braingasm when I watch them. I studied lots of Game Design and Theory and I love talking about them.
This video completely changed how I understood games. Bravo!
5:48 look at the left
+ShedGaming Huh?
+Alex Ander Oh the face lol.
Is there any video of James giving a talk about this subject ? I wouldn't mind for a one hour long version.
Just search for James Portnow on youtube, I see there are a few of his talks, I just don't know if any of them are about this specific subject.
Foolish me. It didn't occur to me to search again. [Previously some years ago there wasn't much about James on CZcams as there is today]
Here is the video :
watch?v=oXaDQTziXtI
This is a great video on the questions that I always think about: why do people enjoy the games they do? What type of "fun" do certain games provide? Why is a game a 10/10 for one person, but 6.5/10 for someone else?
I'd love more videos on the topic!!!
The art in this Extra Credits was adorable!!!
THIS is the reason I have this channel on my feed-list. It helps me live my video-game life a lot more CONSCIOUSLY. Thank you so much! By the way, exactly the same reasons I quit WoW :D
This is pretty much how I always thought of game genres. I like how its more officially analyzed here, never quite put it into words myself.
I think this would be an interesting way of classifying games, better than the current mechanics-based genres. I think there would be a lot of mixed genres and I'm sure some people would disagree on certain games aesthetics, but still, it is good to look at them in a different light.
oh my god, you have no idea you much my face just lit up when you said "the incredible machine." Back when that had just come out, it was all I used a computer for!! I spent HOURS on that game making the coolest most complicated machine imaginable!
I even managed to make 1, my favorite, which produced different results each time it was set off. It was a game of ball on ball dodgeball/tag/hockey which utilized the mechanics of altering specific balls' attributes.
Best memories right there.
I always thought we just classify games like this:
Portal: FPS puzzle platformer
CODMW4: Linear FPS Action
I recently got confused about someone talking about turn based strategy rpgs. I thought he was talking about Fire Emblem like SRPGs. I totally agree that we need to define games by several categories.
ancalyme Fukigen Cinderella. And I thought you just tack on anything that was something to do with the game. Like Firefall is an fps mmorpg meaning it is a first person massively multiplayer online role playing game and then if you like the sound of that you would go and look more into the game via reviews or playthoughs.
Otimo Did not expect anyone to recognise him/her haha
ancalyme It was a good manga :D
A hat trading game with a team-based class-based objective oriented fps
This art style is just adorable :D
Wow... Always learning. Thanks!
Great stuff!
aww the coh mention >.< hands down best costume creator I have ever seen
-1:15-- If both the challenge (which is about skill and ambition) and the aspect of playing as someone in this world (which is about emotion and imagination) form the Aesthetics, I'd probably split them up further rather than blending them together, as those two are such vastly different experiences.-
-It works as one of the three cornerstones in this model, but I think splitting them up and looking at them seperately should be done when looking at some more particular aspects.-
Nevermind, should have watched the whole video first before commenting :P
lol well no s*t Sherlock (lol no offense )
Bro Im taking a media game studies class and I had been lost for 4 weeks before the exam. Just helped a ton 😂 THANK U
Should it be mentioned that competition and fellowship doesn't have to be with real people? I think this can be achieved when you have great characters and immersion in your game. (how many of you have hated your rival in pokemon with a burning passion?)
Meh... not really... Real fellowship requires a living person (debatably even a "thing"), and true competition... well we are already very capable of doing that with AI.
-
Edited for clarity. (^_^)b
@@Visigoth_ I firmly feel this is just humanist hubris that denies the effectiveness of substitutes to humans, and an insult to those who carefully craft these experiences.
@@gathorall9136, :) feel however you want... I think we're probably just defining "Fellowship" differently.
@@Visigoth_ If you can feel for fictional characters/humans, I don't see why you couldn't experience fellowship with them. I mean if we couldn't relate/compare fictional characters to real people, we wouldn't have stories I think? Like we have to be able to feel something real. So fellowship should also be perfectly possible as well.
@@gathorall9136 I agree.
And not to mention the fellowship portrayed in the games community forum, helping new players and sharing their crazy narrative.
Interesting stuff.
Glad someone used the proper words to make some other things clearer.
My thoughts exactly. Great to hear some people still remember this game.
Keep up the good work. Thank you :- from across the pond.
I love your channel :)
I like the art style of this video it is definable as a great hand drawn art experience
awesome another episode :D
I was thinking about playing through Mana Khemia again.
I was undecided on whether I should or not.
Then you show a screenshot of it in the first 20 seconds.
That pretty much made up my mind for me.
If you don't mind, I have to go hook up my PS2.
This reminds me of the Gamification Octalysis: a chart of the 8 core drives behind our actions. Epic Meaning, Empowerment, Social Influence, Unpredictability, Avoidance, Scarcity, Ownership and Accomplishment.
This is your best video.
I've been wondering and and would like to hear your video on "Challenge Vs Difficulty" if and when you make it.
omg the incredible machine had this on my first pc :D
totally going to look it up now thanks extracredzzzz
Thank you for the shout out to City of Heroes! :)
Man, I miss that game...
THAT ART IS SO SMOLLLLLLL
Thanks, David!
That Art Style is adorable
This is another one of your videos/areas of Game development theory with massive implications for teaching.
Is there any way to get a different link to the MDA paper? It seems to require a login in order to download.
I loved the guest art
You're talking a litle bit fast, but the video is very clear and super interesting !
As a computer science student with no intention of getting into game design.... I still watch and love all these videos
I noticed that Magic the Gathering actually delivers on five of the aesthetics. Sensation in the cool card art. Fantasy in imagining the world constructed by the flavor and storyline. Challenge in playing against a skilled opponent. Fellowship in the friendships with other players. Discovery in finding new tactics and releases of new cards and mechanics. Expression in designing new and creative deck ideas and situational use of cards.
Tracy Fullerton's playcentric approach is one of the few that tries to teach designers to bring together the mechanics and aesthetics poles. She proposes to define the player experiences we aim at before we start to think of mechanics that could produce such aesthetics.
7:28 When I heard that, I couldn't help but think of the factions from divergent, because of the name of the attribute there: abnegation.
Looking for some insight on how to properly name a game genre (because I like thinking about videogames like that) I found the Game Show video of "genre and you" and this video, and looking at both, it's revealed to me again why I stopped watching that other channel lol.
A lot of games just name it "action" or "puzzle" with a pinch of descriptiveness. You'll rarely find real genre labels on a game's box for instance.
That's my problem, genres are all over the place between theeming, mechanics, perspective, time period, etc they almost don't matter at all
Chueko Loyo
They really don't! In terms of marketing nowadays people know what they are getting from a AAA title from the internet (trailers) and word of mouth (both are one and the same now). The audience for indie gaming tend to know what they like anyway, but I'm just generalising.
My preference is the cross between discovery-fantasy-sensory that make up most AAA adventure games and RPGs like Skyrim (and all of Elder Scrolls), Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Zelda, in no particular order, but I also really like narrative games as well, as a (book) writer who loves gaming.
And, really, the talk of genre for books is outdated too, based on conventions and tropes that see more, less, or different uses than they used to. Food for thought, great vid.
The aesthetics of this video are amazing, the graphics not so. Good one!
guys. you said you could do a whole episode on the difference between difficulty and challenge. pleeeeaaase can you do it. it would be awesome and so helpful as i dont understand the difference very well myself.
That's almost exactly how I felt about MapleStory. The old MS managed to provide all 9 aesthetics covered in the video. I think MMOs, especially MMORPGs, are some of the easiest games to find multiple aesthetics in. Unfortunately, providing maintenance on those aesthetics is an area that still needs a lot of work. Too often I find myself getting really into an online game, for multiple reasons, but over time the things that drew me in always start to fade away until I get bored and leave.
I agree. The way we define genres is outdated and utterly inadequate. I mean, what is even the definition of an "RPG" these days? It's not a Game in which you Play the Role of a character, because that's basically most games these days. It's not the leveling up or turn based combat that used to be iconic of RPGs, because nowadays, almost all / almost no games use these mechanics, respectively. Old RPGs were distinct from other games for being very plot and character driven. But, again, most games do this too these days.
I'd like to know what other people thought about this topic.
Coincidentally this episode came up while I was re-organizing my Steam library into categories :-D
5:48 lol the left fellowship face :D
interesting video!!
Can you recommend a good book on this topic
I love the art
I love Dwarf Fortress for sense, fantasy, occasionally narrative (It's so vague you can make up your own story), challenge, discovery, and expression. Everything is just so perfect in that game for me I usually just can't stop playing it.
8:37 XD
P.S. Sense Pleasure can also refer to the thrill of the chase in Tag or the satisfying feeling of going fast in Sonic, for example.
9:16 Bra Relocating by Justin Tense.
The intro and outro titles are given (but they aren't labeled as songs, so there's no way you could've known) There's also a link to download in the description.
I'd gladly watch an hour long video on this subject. I know it's a ton of work, but still. A podcast would be great.
CZcams should allow posting this video on comments, and automatically post it on every "TOP 10 RPG" video where Skyrim/Minecraft is number 1.
+Mark Boltz That's not a video. It's a link to a video =)
Mark Boltz Yeah and it's ok. Posting videos on comment would be awfull with the youtube community if you ask me.
Oh man this just got me so excited. Thinking about genres outside of mechanics makes so much sense. Can you imagine playing a horror game the size of Skyrim? Where the main aesthetic was exploration but everything was creepy as fuck? That would be heeeeeeell of dope.
actualy there is another big important point in this topic. its a difference between which core aestetic this game _should_ motivate and highlight per design, and with which emotive reason actual player engages the game. i personaly played counter strike out of many reasons. my strongest motivation was discovering and overcoming of obstacles, thats why for me counter strike never was frustrating, and was always fun and joy.
Very interesting
these references are funny as hell XD
about the point off fellowship funny enough the first thing i was thinking
is wow and what was the first word you called wow
that a funny coincidence thats all also great video just like always ^^
fired from escapist but still on of the most intellectual game shows ever so great job you guys ^^
I remember learning it this way, but I always thought of it as a pyramid or like a log problem (lol) like (for developers) it goes:
DA
M
You think of the Dynamics you want and how you want the players to feel during the players interaction with the dynamics (which is part of the aesthetics) then you create the mechanics to create the Dynamics so on and so forth. I'm not saying its wrong or anything like that and I'm just starting out so i "have no room to talk/not an expert yet." but just offering another way of thinking about M.D.A
Thanks for reading :)
Lol, love the pic for City of Heroes
Damn that City of Heroes reference hit me hard.. 😢
'heroes may fall, but heroism never shall'
LeeLee, your drawings are just soooo cute! : D
Bless you for bringing up City of Heroes.
What would it take to become one of your guest artists?
I realised that my fav casual game, Meadow, hits 4 of the aesthetics - despite being a walking sim with like two and a half actual game mechanics. It's sense pleasure (music, sound design and views), fellowship (communication and teamwork with other players), discovery (what's in that cave I've never seen befo- ohh wooow!), and abnegation (you can spend hours galloping across the fields to relax).