Refuting the Usage of Imagination in Prayer
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- čas přidán 19. 04. 2021
- Today I demonstrate why Orthodox Christians are against the usage of imagination in prayer by providing the alternative understanding of knowing God.
Check these out for more information on the subjects discussed here:
spex.ignatianspirituality.com/... www.ignatianspirituality.com/...
www.pravmir.com/article_545.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritu...
www.academia.edu/39047741/_Es...
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Step 28:42 in the Ladder: During prayer do not admit any sensory imagination, so as not to be subject to distraction.
All thoughts -- including words, mental images, and ideas -- are formed in the imagination as they are not objects. There is no distraction in mental imagery unless the image is a product of carnal thinking not directed by the Holy Spirit.
@PETERJOHN101 you know what he means though. There's the rational stuff like just focusing on the words you're saying and there's the irrational
You can spend your whole life thinking you are praying and then realize you have been caught up in your own imagination . Mercifully, the suffering of life helps clarify this if we have faith.
According to St Maximus, imagination is literally what created the Fall. So...not a good idea in prayer. St John of the Ladder also condemns it.
To confuse contemplation with imagination (Contemplation being an objective mental search while imagination is like an arbitrary mental conjuration) is to fall into irrational absurdity. That itself is a presuppositional error.
You can arbitrarily conjure some fantastical thing in your mind, but you can only solidly come to the conclusion that 4+4=8 lest you be in error.
Great video, bro. It was definitely interesting.
What would be an example of contemplation in this context?
@@Cobruh_Commander
I don't know as much as David does, but an example of contemplation in the same vein as how I described it would be something like solving a mathematical problem or a criminal case. Solving syllogisms etc. The point being that you're ascertaining something in your mind that is objective about the world. As opposed to fantasizing about something.
Modern philosophers will try to have you believe that there is no truth or contemplation about the world, but only arbitrary interpretation or imagination about sense data. Such is the vice of Post-Modern thought.
The word "contemplation" became infused with the idea of "meditation" during the 1960's, and that is quite different than what you are describing. I am unsure of your usage in the comment you posted. I would argue that we should not worry about the *_structure_* of our thinking process and pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance in *_what_* to think, Imagine, or consider. Thought is very more complex than these words being thrown around might suggest. I do not, by the way, engage in any form of meditation, as I consider that to be a pagan practice.
How could anyone dislike this?
May it is Eric Ybarra dropping by :-)
You're imagining the dislike 😅
Great stream, I've been looking for someone to cover this topic. Thanks.
Thank you! I’ve had very brief moments in prayer where I suddenly “understood “ or seemed to “apprehend” things of God that I later couldn’t put into words...they had no visual images with the sudden understanding. I must continue to purify my nous and just let God give me or grant me the understandings that He wishes to. And if He never grants me any more of these moments I will still have received more than enough for my lifetime! 🔥🙏🏻☦️🙏🏻🔥
There is that "feeling" during prayer. Makes me feel happy, loved and yes I can "know" God better. ☦✝️
Very helpful, thanks for this. God bless!
Do bring Fr. Barnabas Powell on board some time. His insistence on sobriety is one of the things that attracted me to Orthodoxy. A coffee talk around this topic would be nice as he has experience on both sides (being a former Pentecostal and all).
Fr. Barnabas is great, I would love to see a discussion with him.
This is a very important video. For me it relates to the whole issue of idolatry and is directly connected to it. Western art is totally based on imagination till the 20th c. ...IMHO the various ism's in 20th C art are unconscious attempts away from the idolatry of post Renisance art.
Great topic ....thank you sooo much!
Cool Video
This is literally the argument against icons ironically. The Son incarnating allowed the cataphatic and apophatic to be reconciled
Great video! I think perhaps a better word to use instead of "imagination" would be "visualization". My understanding of the Fathers is that visualization in particular is the form of imagining that we need to stay clear of. Mainly because our "visualizations" are really just our own creation, and not from God. Even if we are visualizing various scenes from the Gospel stories, and placing ourselves in them as if we were there, the fact still remains that this scene is still something that I have created, and not from God. Whereas we are to use contemplation of what is actually written, and its direct implications; neither of which is something we create.
So art is evil?
@@TheEternalClown Not in the least. In the Orthodox Church we highly venerate sacred art, in the form of icons, which depict Christ, His Mother, Holy Angels, and the Saints.
And secular art is good too, when it is beautiful and does not glorify anything ungodly.
this is what i would love to see more elaboration on@@artdanks4846
Very interesting puzzle piece. Thank you. I've deposited 3 Our Fathers into your account.
My job is to focus on the Jesus Prayer which leads me into stillness or hesychia and let God do whatever He wants to with me.
Basically, when we pray, we don't invent God, we try to receive God as He reveals Himself. Do I get it right?
Why would we use imagination in prayer? It just opens ourselves up to prelest.
"Lest the Mind fall into insanity" ☹️
How are you certain your contemplations represent objective truth and are not as imperfect and pragmatic as your imaginations?
He’s saying we should contemplate what had been revealed to us, rather than draw up imagery in our own mind. contemplations represent objective truth because the focus of them is objective truth.
@@kaden7374
I trust you are referring to contemplation as reflecting on some kind of logical position or arguments, not imagining Judgement day or the tortures of Hell or such tawdry Christian pastimes meant to inspire 'salvific fear' despite falling under the same accusation as other imaginations.
Yet one's contemplations of a logical position require the use of imagination, one does not conduct one's thoughts in utter reason. I cannot understand 'transcendent' without an inkling of an imagination, nor does the constant usage of terms such as 'Father'or 'begotten,' (of the Father) despite being featured as 'objective truths,' dissuade the use of imagination.
Not to mention that each man, with his own mind, inner life, and way of parsing information, has his own level of understanding of so-called revelation. He may imperfectly understand this 'objective truth' of yours. He may perfectly understand it (whatever that means, as there are too many variables to remember at once), but later forget or bungle it. Does this imperfection of understanding not make it so that demons can influence the man? Why trust God will protect them? He did not protect others who had smaller failings, if anyone at all. If he protected, furthermore, there would be no need for monasticism or the prayers of monks (if what they say is true).
And how are you certain that what has been 'revealed' is true? Contemplation of a revealed objective truth cannot merely refer to what secular philosophers do all the time, as a profession or hobby, but to a practice of contemplating Orthodox themes that are linked by necessity to (at least) historical claims such as the death and resurrection of Christ, his actually having been the son of a virgin, his lineage traced back to Adam, or even an original sin that needs saving from at all. Have these things been evidenced? Have I any good reason to believe them? Without them, I am afraid you are contemplating a falsehood, for it does not follow from the logical necessity of some god- or mind- like thing that homosexuals be burned in Hell, or that those who reproduce not be by default burned burned Hell, or that there was a dying-and-rising savior who was called the Christ (among numerous other indispensable and equally large claims).
What you seem to be hinting at is TAG or presuppositionalism. How do you ascertain that it is the Orthodox Christian God that is the necessary thing we must contemplate?
There must exist no room for faith lest there exist the uncertainty and subjectivity where demons may enter, for faith is not evidence of things unseen.
Not to mention, what a retarding and miserable ethos. No variety of personalities or paths, or universalism (i.e., apokatastasis), only 'contemplation of the truth.'
Of course, even the 'contemplation of the truth' may bear no fruits. Even if it is the truth, who is to say that contemplating revelation successfully and fully cannot nevertheless invite demonic influence or be useless? I do not trust experiences of Orthodox mystics and sages who refuse to be measured against Hindu, Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant, New Age, Pagan, etc. mystics and sages, for why should their experiences be any special? Not to mention, their philosophy of life is rotten, their morality vis a vis Infernalism, theodicy, labor, suffering, victimhood is inverted and demonic. If anything, they have quite successfully escaped secular society and demonized themselves in the desert. It is no wonder, for they drunken themselves on the modern vestiges of a Greek-philosophy-supercharged Canaanite war god's cult.
If you are not even Orthodox, let it stand for posterity. Another one will come in another year and take it up.
Question: all of this is very clear in regard to prayer, but does this include Scripture readings? How is it possible NOT to imagine the scene playing out when the priest reads the Gospel?
Simple, he ignores the thoughts and focuses on the words.
Well let^s ask a neuroscientist wethaer it is irrational or not ? It uses prefrontal cortex no ? As far as I know that is the rational part of the brain.
A part of Man's created nature is his ability to hold mental images -- a compliment to his ability to see the physical world. How would our holy bible have been created without the ability to form mental images beforehand? We should distinguish between *_philosophical thought_* and mental imagery. These are very different things. As Christians, we want to examine whether our theological ideas (or random thoughts, including mental imagery) reflect the nature and will of God.
Mental imagery can be used under the direction of the Holy Spirit to move us closer to God. For example, a vision of my mother that I received years ago is one that I mentally replay on occasion because it comforts me. When my mother was alive, I would pray for God's healing power with an image of His divine light covering her, and I saw many miracles of God's healing power during her lifetime.
I believe the artist Akiane Kramarik demonstrates this very well, her paintings of Jesus require a gift that could only come from the hand of God. Do her painting require imagination? Obviously they do. See the video titled, "Child Prodigy Paints Visions from God." If our thoughts lift up Jesus, they are good, if they do not, they are evil.
We should be careful not to embrace the very thing we are trying to avoid... philosophical ideas or imaginings that do not further the kingdom of God or which might impede the work of the Holy Spirit within us. Discernment is better than theology. God bless.
@@marceloviana4876
I understand the video quite well and found it to be laden with theological eisegesis. No where in the bible is prayer portrayed or taught as a method -- it is communion with the Father and the Son. But thank you for your concern... God bless.
@@marceloviana4876
How odd for you to think I am referring to "sensations" when in fact I am referring to thoughts directed by the Holy Spirit. At times he evokes an image or a thought for the purpose of edification, such as the one I shared above. I might even imagine what heaven looks like by forming a mental picture of it using descriptive content from the bible. Have you never experienced communion with God with thoughts that are not words?
Let me also make a suggestion. Surrender to God's presence and see what pleases him rather than making assumptions about how important you think your words are to him. The Apostle Paul wrote, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." Jesus himself warned against strict liturgy in prayer as a ritual to be avoided.
@@marceloviana4876
I do not know what an "exalted state" is or how the mental image of someone I am praying for makes me less sober. I think you are over thinking communion with God and that is how false theology begins, with over thinking.
@@PETERJOHN101 Underthinking is one too, since protestant theology is rife with heresies due largely to a lack of ordo theologia, the imagery makes an idol of an idea and not prayer with noetic effect which includes a whole bodily experience
@@shiningdiamond5046 But a mental image does not preclude a bodily effect. How does imagery make an idol of an idea, either in relation to me or in reality? Do you even know what an idol is? Why not an icon?
Animals have legs don’t use your legs
In all seriousness it’s important to realize The Worldly ads you use to make money are putting corrupt images in our minds and impeding our prayer life I think you should discontinue the ads and try to do this in your spare time after your done working and providing for yourself and family.
And by the way human being are naturally telepathic and have spiritual communication that's the way God made us !!!?
Christianity solving OCD even before the modern era LMAO scientism L
Without a relationship with Christ nothing else matters seek Christ and the rest will follow
This will solve it all (Jesus)!!! Says I tell you if a man (thinks) of listing after a women) than he has committed adultery in his hart so this explains the hart mind connection explaining how the spirit mind and body works as God maid it to?!!!!
Again so a man thinking so is he to prey as if what we ask for has already been accomplished this also explains the spiritual effects our thoughts have this is simple!! We are spirit (not) flesh so our spirit man has voice ears everything our flesh has and more applying prayer as in heaven also on earth through preying for others under love as for as God will if our prayer do not align with Gods will than we are not in our correct relationship with our attorney Jesus christ
A church father said it, ergo it must be true.
Lol yeah this is the extent of e-orthodox discourse
The fruits of "wandering" outside of the Orthodox foundations is what bears out your scorn as Truth or not. No one Father is a pillar, the Church is the Body of Christ, and HIs Mind is in the Orthodox Chruch.
The Roman "catholic" and castrati, systemic child abuse (you think that just started recently?), creating protestants from the papal protestants, psychosis of protestants and the blaspheming of Gods name from dog-barking 'charismatics' - you are all joined together. Or, the countervailing inevitable response when your theology makes zero sense - atheist agnostic, secular worship of self, freemason United States, the worship of self man-as-god, hippies and new-ager gnostics literally think they can control 'energies' - utter delusion and prelest. No foundation of where "truth" comers from - the only Truth is Orthodox.
This is the fruits of those outside the Orthodox foundation, of which the Fathers are Pillars.
@@EO-John9540 Have you ever heard Yahwah’s voice?
@@noeticwanderer1941 That's Orthodox discussion in general. And that's a good thing.
@@KevinTheMetalhead cringe
AGIN if you continue to seek after saints or others instead of Jesus your missing the point and the omage deserved to our savior and his sacrifice (seek a relationship with Jesus )!!!!!!!!!!!!