Is "IMAGINATIVE PRAYER" In-Line with Church Teaching? w/ Dr. Bob Schuchts
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- This clip was taken from a livestream with Dr. Bob Schuchts:
• Finding Healing in Chr...
In this clip, Matt and Dr. Bob talk about "imaginative prayer," plus how psychology and our Faith integrate.
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St. Teresa teaches on the role of imagination in prayer. Very important lessons from a Doctor of the Church.
Yes, at Step Four of her "Ascent of Mount Carmel" advising not attempting to control any transition between thinking active and having faith imaginative. This led me to see as I believe Cardinal George Pell in his thinking only taking on Vatican Secretariat of State official Cardinal Angelo Becciu on embezzlement of charity donations within the family followed by Pope Francis simultaneously on or about 10 June 2021 authorising in his:
(a) thinking a civil Vatican State trial of Becciu and nine others alleging this embezzlement presently continuing;
(b) imaginative having faith a protest note to the Italian Government against an unacceptable risk of fraud on identities of family members by the "Zan" anti-homophobia bill before the Italian Parliament (defeated in early November 2021).
I believe Pope Francis understands the obvious that the worldwide community is made up solely of family members and their helpers. I believe that Pope Francis is withstanding the extreme tensions caused by the "worldwide catastrophe" of incest connected abuse within families that he identified in 2015 and that "the great majority of marriages are invalid" that he identified in 2014.
Imagination in prayer is extremely helpful, it's almost like you're not praying when you aren't imagining things. Earlier today I was making a pot of coffee for the family, and I have thing problem where if I make 12 cups of coffee, and have three, then I feel like it's unfair.
So I spent a moment to pray, that I may make this pot of coffee out of love for God, even if the love be imperfect, at least that it may be better than bitterness. I imagined Jesus drinking a cup of coffee, then I imagined my family drinking the coffee. It was a good thing.
St Ignatius’ spiritual exercises will rock your world if you’ve never done them. Especially if you are someone who’s mind wanders and gets distracted in prayer, it’s perfect.
@@gk7754 funny you should ask. I just gave a talk on this. The most relevant parts start about 24 min in czcams.com/video/zh6atJVQvNg/video.html
I completely agree. I wish it was taught in Catholic school. Would have been a helpful tool in life
@@MW-he4cp when I was a catholic school teacher, I taught it. I know some other teachers do too
@@PopCultureCatechism that's great to hear! What was your result? Did the kids like it? Did it help them?
@@MW-he4cp junior year curriculum includes a whole quarter on prayer and spirituality to dovetail with their Kairos retreat experience and help them develop an interior life. For the kids who are open to it, it is really beautiful. I loved teaching it and it was generally well received.
I think sometimes we receive hidden gems of realization in this type of prayer. Not only can God communicate something to you, but you may have a realization about yourself, too.
Dear Lord Jesus please take All of me. The good, the bad and the ugly 🙏 I have it All 🙏 Viva Cristo Rey 🙏
As a protestant I view an Important part of prayer Is relationship building.
If your building a relationship with your wife for example then some of the things you say to her will be traditional scripts and phrases like "I love you" and sometimes you talk to her In a more conversational non scripted way. It would be very unnatural to only talk one way or the other. A healthy relationship needs both.
Yes, thinking and imaginative inseparably and qualitatively equal as at Step Four of Doctor of the Church, St Teresa of Avilla's, "Ascent of Mount Carmel" in not attempting to control transition between them.
Well, prayer is to be in absolute awe of God. Focusing on an image, conjured up by the mind so-to-speak, is only as effective as the subject is able to meditate and appreciate God in the abundance of his love and goodness.
I believe the Early Church Fathers wereopposed to using fantasy in prayer.
Unimaginative prayers are impossible, even if we pray thinking only upon the words, still those words will create in our mind imagines, everytime we've imagines in our mind, it's impossible to have a voided mind in anycase.
I think it’s partly a failure of English and other Western European languages to find precisely equivalent words to the Greek concepts the Desert Fathers were conveying. In English, the word “imagination” covers too many meanings to do this important idea Justice.
The Benedictine prayer, composed in Latin and more relatable in English, is easily to understand:
“Protect us from VAIN, Evil and WANDERING thoughts…”
If you want to lump meditative thoughts that succeed in avoiding those three vices STILL under “Imagination”, it begs the question: what do you mean? How does one imagine and not wander in doing so?
@@eldermillennial8330 That's is what I want to understand from the eastern tradition in fact, I agree upon be in according to our thoughts, but a man cannot be at all without immagination, if you say it's a matter of languages and different meanings, well it's a point that I could understand, thanks for the clarification. Aniway For sure considerig every human thought carnal and affected by sin its like saying that we're intrinsecally evil, but the original sin doctrine its an easy way to explain why without grace we're so addicted to flash and death, and why we die in effect.
A very interesting question. And a correlate question could be, “is imagination from God?”. Or “does God speak through imagination, dreams, etc?”
See Job 33:15-18. Some might argue that that was in the Old Testament and so no longer applies. I would not so argue.
God spoke to St Joseph through dreams, and the visions St Peter had with the animals in Acts shows God can and has used these mediums for communications. We just have to be prudent in discerning what is from God, which requires prayer.
@@dwong9289 I think your last point is most important. I would add this admonition. Most especially with regard to dreams, but also all perceived wisdom that seems to come from God, discernment is best pursued in the company of faithful and wise Catholic mentors and by testing it against the wisdom and teaching authority of the Church. It also helps, I think, to let the matter "ferment" within one's heart and mind for a period of time to see how it holds up. I have no special insight into this, but I think such measures are prudent.
Isn't the rosary imaginative-prayer?
The hearts eyes are fixed on Jesus through Mary's perspective. As we contemplate his perfect life on earth.
I would think the same thing about the Stations of the Cross. We walk that road to Calvary...yes?
@@swoosh1mil I love these devotions 🥰
Guard yourself from imagination, which can make you fancy that you see the Lord Jesus Christ, that you touch and embrace Him. This is empty play of puffed-up and proud self-opinion! This is deadly self-praise! (1:33)
If during your prayer there appears to your senses or spontaneously in your mind an image of Christ, or of an Angel, or of any Saint-in other words, any image whatsoever-do not accept this apparition as true in any way, do not pay any attention to it, and do not enter into a conversation with it. Otherwise, you will surely suffer deceit and most serious damage to your soul, which has happened to many. (1:75-6; see also Philokalia 5:233)
The specific features of this… type of prayer are such: when one, standing at prayer and lifting up his hands, and eyes, and mind to heaven, imagines in his mind divine councils, the heavenly goodness, the ranks of angels, and the dwellings of the saints; in other words, all that he has heard from the Divine Scriptures, he collects into his mind… But during this type of prayer, little-by-little, [he] starts to puff-up in his heart, not understanding this himself; it seems to him that what he is doing is from God’s grace [given] for his comfort, and he asks God to let him always be in this state. But this is a sign of great deception… Such a person, [if he practices this type of prayer in seclusion][2] will hardly be able to stay sane. But, even if it so happens that he does not go insane, he, nonetheless, will not be able to acquire virtues… (Philokalia 5:463-4)
The most dangerous of the incorrect types of prayer consists of the person creating imaginary pictures, seemingly borrowing them from the Holy Scripture, but in reality-from his own state of fall and self-pride; and with these pictures he flatters his own self-opinion, his fall, his sinfulness, deceives himself. Obviously, everything which is created by the imagination of our fallen nature, does not exist in reality, is make-belief and false… The one who imagines, with the first step on the path of prayer leaves the area of truth and enters the area of deceit, passions, sin, Satan. (Works 1:160-1)
More Church Fathers on the dangers of imaginative prayer here:
www.pravmir.com/article_545.html
I believe Doctor of the Church St Teresa of Avilla gets it right at Step Four of her "Ascent of Mount Carmel" of not trying to control the interchange between active thinking prayer and passive imaginative prayer.
There’s become a conceptual ignorance in the English speaking world in particular and Protestant culture in general, of the difference between thinking, meditating and being imaginative. The distinctions have all become blurry, and for those raised in this fog, learning to see them clearly as separate is a tremendous challenge.
No, St. Symeom the New Theologian says imaginative prayer is the weakest and lowest form of prayer which will inevitably lead to spiritual delusion.
Sebastian Lopez, I believe yes imaginative prayer on its own leads to spiritual delusion but not if its inseparability and qualitative equality with thinking prayer is kept or allowed as St Teresa of Avilla explains in her "Ascent of Mount Carmel".
I think that it's interface with the Father. As long we don't get carried away in our own foolishness and pride it seems it would be good
It is a personal experience,
I’m not sure what conceptual images are. Can you explain?
I approve ;)
Cardinal George Pell took on Vatican Secretariat of State official Cardinal Angelo Becciu on embezzlement of charity donations within the family followed by Pope Francis simultaneously on or about 10 June 2021 authorising a civil Vatican State trial of Becciu and nine others alleging this embezzlement presently continuing and a protest note to the Italian Government against an unacceptable risk of fraud on identities of family members by the "Zan" anti-homophobia bill before the Italian Parliament (defeated in early November 2021). I believe Pope Francis understands the obvious that the worldwide community is made up solely of family members and their helpers. I believe that Pope Francis is withstanding the extreme tensions caused by the "worldwide catastrophe" of incest connected abuse within families that he identified in 2015 and that "the great majority of marriages are invalid" that he identified in 2014.
Are fantasy novels ok for a christian to read if they contain magic, wizards, elves, other pagan and occultist elements?
Yes, as long as they aren’t taken to be true by the reader. Lord of the Rings and the Narnia series are both written by acclaimed Christian authors, and the analogy to Scripture in both are very clear!
The exorcist Fr. Ripperger says to stay away from Harry Potter for various reasons. God Bless
Yes but be careful, especially around kids as it could lead them to the occult.
A gloss comment by the host conveniently highlights a very hard to pin-down aspect of Catholic thought through the ages. The host says something like "My experience of God in prayer is as real to me as the experience of Gravity." Well, I would agree that this is a good thing, and possibly speaks well about his experience of the Divine. But for a lot of Catholic history such a statement would have been heretical. For roughly the first millennium of Catholic thought the dogmatic, accepted philosophy was that of Platonic "Realist" metaphysics. Of course here "Realist" means something different from our common usage today. It meant that the only truly real things were the ultimate Forms of Godly perfection in heaven. Life on earth, "in the cave" of Platonic telling of the matter, was only a shadowy illusion. And so much of Catholic thought before Aquinas takes this basic assumption as bedrock. Thus to say that the experience of God was only as "real" as a force that obtained in earthly life would be heretical. Of course, the very focus by the host on Gravity comes from later post-newtonian worldview. Still, it shows that what we might take as "real" was very different than obtained in the past. And it is this very light-- a quite complicated one in details-- that shows Catholic dogmas have changed. The only reason some Catholics persist in the the very a-historical idea that there is a "constant teaching of the Catholic Church" is simply because they have decided never to get "in the weeds" of the fine points of Catholic doctrines, in terms of changing metaphysical assumptions. What shows the changing nature of Doctrine is, ironically, the revolution that Aquinas brought about in the Catholic world, and his heavy use of Aristotle, which spelled the diminution fo "Realist" metaphysics which had literally ruled the Catholic Church since the beginning! Under this telling the host's comment about Gravity would make more sense with Catholic belief. But in a previous Christian age he might have been tried by the Holy Office, or its precursors!
Thank you ppfuchs, Aquinas lacked the scientific knowledge of inseparability and qualitative equality of the male and the female in procreation hence he only allows that faith and reason are inseparable but not qualitatively equal. Pope St Paul V1 took this line in Humanae Vitae, 1968, 12 that union and procreation in marriage are inseparable without referring to whether equal.
I believe that our Jesuit order Pope Francis with the scientific knowledge of the multiplier in economics now well demonstrated in clarifying HV, 1968, 12 gets the "Real" right in his keeping or allowing covenant, non-presumed reciprocity between his activity and being since 10 June 2021. Cardinal George Pell applying only thinking took on Vatican Secretariat of State official Cardinal Angelo Becciu on embezzlement of charity donations within the family followed by Pope Francis simultaneously on or about 10 June 2021:
(a) applying thinking in authorising a civil Vatican State trial of Becciu and nine others alleging this embezzlement presently continuing;
(b)applying imagination by a protest note to the Italian Government against an unacceptable risk of fraud on identities of family members by the "Zan" anti-homophobia bill before the Italian Parliament (defeated in early November 2021).
I believe Pope Francis understands the obvious "Real" in our present moment or Real Presence that the worldwide community is made up solely of family members and their helpers. I believe that Pope Francis is withstanding the extreme tensions caused by the "worldwide catastrophe" of occult or hidden incest connected as "substitute mate" abuse within families that he identified in 2015 and that "the great majority of marriages are invalid" that he identified in 2014.
@@oliverclark5604 Not sure if I follow your train of thought here, or trains of thought maybe better, but at least it indicates to me, yet again, how bizarrely involved every aspect of the Catholic Church's "present" is with its past. Such that to not understand the finer points of its philosophy and polity is to perforce not grasp anything at all really about the institution. Of course, this is the opposite of how Catholic are trained, with the pleasant notion that if you just grasp th basics of the faith, well, you have its basic "deposit." And this is how, generation after generation, people continue with the frankly absurd notion that nothing of importance has changed in Catholic belief. If one is honest about all the crucial finer details, and their crucial effect on more basic, simple issues, you get that MUCH has changed in Catholic belief. If what you have tried to say about Pope Francis is that his identity as Jesuit indicates his being clued-in to the finer details of changing Church notions, given the famous intellectual prowess of the Society of Jesus, then I really do resonate with your point. So much of what Francis is doing is legible historically as a serious attempt to hone in on a Catholic "vibe" --- to use a purposely oblique term-- which would rescue so much of what is good in the Catholic church (mercy, charity, intellectual rigor, etc) from all the dead-weight of hyper-vigilant dogmatism in morality of belief which ONLY makes sense to people --- coming full circle now-- who have no clue about the actual changing history of the Church, as seen in the details. For those types, even if they knew of such details they would cling to frenzied dogmatism because their inner life is so frenzied and unhappy that they cannot stand a universe in which Mercy quashes the minefield of changing details. Theirs is a horrible simplicity which they take to be sanctity, when in fact it is just like a loud moment of flatulence of undigested history by which they hope to cancel every past inconvenience in Church History. The irony is they want a Brave New World for Catholicism , one which never obtained ever, and ill comports with its history at any point, by which they can forge a totalitarian future which will relieve their manic inner unhappiness. Whatever Pope Francis' issues, it is clear he is on a more reasonable, merciful, and most importantly, informed path.
"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually through time to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.
It’s easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled.
No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.
This truth will free you to seek for the Living God in the Spirit and to truly KNOW GOD instead of just knowing ABOUT HIM.
The GOSPEL is NOT written with ink, nor on tablets of stone, but on our hearts by the Spirit of the Living God.
The gentiles who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, then they are a law unto themselves.
Under the New Covenant we are to be led by the Holy Spirit, not the bible.
I was searching for truth when Jesus told me, "The bible is an idol" which completely changed my direction. After that I only sought for Him in the Spirit and He has taught me many things on life's journey.
The most important of which is that He died so we could be regenerated by the Holy Spirit into sons and daughters of God.
The gospel is simple, repent from living after the flesh, ask Jesus to fill you with the Holy Spirit and then be led and controlled by Him through the Spirit.
The bible is only history and has absolutely no authority from God to control us, the outward law was under the old covenant. Jesus died to redeem us from the curse of the written law because we were unable to keep it.
Have a great journey through life with the Living Christ guiding you.
When Jesus words are written down and Satan is using them, then the bible becomes the word of Satan.
Constantine (1st) beast compiled 50 bibles, legalized Christianity and set up the false prophet (pope).
King James (2nd) beast, born 6/1566, 6th of Scotland, authorized a bible in 1611 that now has 66 books to control people with, an image of God's word they make to speak (the bible says).
By having faith in the bible which has been made into an idol, they break the new covenant of having faith in the Living Christ through the Holy Spirit, who is the true word of God.
THE BIBLE IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST
Ask Jesus -Yeshua for the Holy Spirit.
Link To Blog Site Book:
Book 1 THE BIBLE IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST
bibleismarkofbeast.blogspot.co...
BOOK 2 THE BIBLE IS AN IDOL
bibleismarkofbeast.blogspot.co...
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czcams.com/users/BIBLEisMARKofBEASTvideos
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Cardinal George Pell took on Vatican Secretariat of State official Cardinal Angelo Becciu on embezzlement of charity donations within the family followed by Pope Francis simultaneously on or about 10 June 2021:
(a) in his thinking authorising a civil Vatican State trial of Becciu and nine others alleging this embezzlement presently continuing;
(b) in his having faith or imagination authorising a protest note to the Italian Government against an unacceptable risk of fraud on identities of family members by the "Zan" anti-homophobia bill before the Italian Parliament (defeated in early November 2021).
I believe Pope Francis understands the obvious "Real" that the worldwide community is made up solely of family members and their helpers. I believe that Pope Francis is withstanding the extreme tensions caused by the "worldwide catastrophe" of incest connected abuse within families that he identified in 2015 and that "the great majority of marriages are invalid" that he identified in 2014.