Hookless - out of the shadows.
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- While having strong opinions on safety, I understand why hookless exists. Check out the LR podcast at time 43:46 where we talk further.
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Again, thanks to Veloforte, my favourite natural and delicious fuel supplier:
PeakT-20 is the code @ tidd.ly/45uc9Db
After producing this video, Zipp have since stated De Gendt hit a rock and the rim failed.
Patreon.com/peaktorque - Věda a technologie
![[Vowel]물고기는 물에서 살아야 해🐟🤣Fish have to live in the water #funny](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3G9MH063Cx4/mqdefault.jpg)
Backwards hat Dylan impression with the American accent had me rolling 😂
Juuuuust missing the hyper grain pro beast mode 😀
Yep, that was good :) Nice to see you here, Nate.
"put that effing pool noodle back into the pool" 😂😂😂😂😂😂
If they are saving money on manufacturing, they sure don't seem to be passing the savings to the consumer.
Hahaha - Have you ever seen Zipp or Enve do a price drop? Nope going straight into bottom line.
@@ConstantRider recently I’ve seen NSW wheelset prices down almost $1kUSD on a few websites. Give it a google.
Yeah...I'm reminded of the "Law of Diminishing Reality"...apologies to 'Utility'.
Everyone's wheels got cheaper when equivalent models went hookless
@ConstantRider yes, when they went hookless, their wheels dropped $200-300 for a given model.
Some more stuff:
1. By Hooked i really mean Crotched. Hooked is an old standard not really in use now.
2. For what its worth, some more comparison to the car which is in a different realm anyway, the ETRTO sidewall height (flank) for a J car rim is 17.5mm. A 622 bike rim sidewall height is 6.3mm. The sidewall height:diameter ratio (an approximation of manufacturing accuracy importance) for a 16" car rim is 0.04. For a 622 bike wheel it is 0.01. So we are dealing with floppier, less stiff sidewalls and beads, with a quarter of the slip allowance up the sidewall. Squeaky butt time for sure when you think about it.
3. If you are using hookless, check the ISO standard in the chart here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_5775#Clincher_tyres_on_straight_sided_or_crochet_type_rims
I would add 2mm to the min tyre size if you want more safety factor. Ambient and road temp will affect the pressure of a close volume. With heat, the pressure will rise.
4. If you suspect a folding bead is broken internally or stretched, don't use it.
5. Don't be tempted to lubricate the bead to get it on, it will get it off too.
6. If you are on smooth tarmac (UAE) and want an aero front wheel with a 28mm tyre, i suspect you will need more than 5 bar, which is against the current reccomendation. Forget using a 25mm on a wide rim, too dangerous in my opinion
7. If hookless wants to stay we need to push for taller sidewalls and more tightly controlled bead diameters on tyres.
8. So why is Giant doing it? Giant Taiwan is the leanest of all producers with the highest output of any bike company in the world. They cannot afford to adopt a Toyota style lean manufacuting method and toss the odd rim into scrap - the process would not work.
9. What about Zipp and Enve? Same as above but more to do with wasting US labor cost. Not feasible. Each rim has hours of cutting, and preform. All manual. Not feasible to scrap rims.
10. What about mainland Chinese factories, APex, Farsports? Almost the opposite of above. But that will change, labour costs are rising.
11. If the current ETRTO/rim guidelines are built around crotched type profiles, hookless needs a complete new standard, with a safe sidewall height and safetey factors that the bike indusrtry can achieve. The loser in this will probably mean tyres getting near impossible to mount by hand.
My opinion only
9.5 what about Trek? saying "F it!" about monocoque and going with thermoplastic matrix and welded halves.
Are Trek in on that? I know there is a US company doing the CF / amide injection moulded rims but they're presumably pretty heavy@@feedbackzaloop
@@PeakTorque apparently forge+bond make bontrager aeolus rims. It's still prepreg long fiber carbon with controlled direction though, so not that much reduction in strengh as with short random fiber of injection moulding. So all weight difference comes from a different matrix, not total redesign.
I guess the moral of this story, you can optimize the production in so many different and exciting ways rather than impair product functionality.
@@PeakTorque the new Aeolus are US made and thermoplastic- I think safe to assume CSS composites are involved. Lots of reviews out there currently saying exactly what you'd expect- a little heavier, little less harsh, maybe a little less precise. Makes sense for some off road applications but will be a hard sell for road. I think it's interesting tech and would like to see more of it even if we disregard the pretty fluffy recycling claims.
In terms of things to add to your pro/cons chart I've repeatedly seen it stated that the hookless rim flanks are stronger and less likely to crack under big bottom-outs. To me this makes sense but I don't think this failure mode is common enough for it to be a genuine advantage.
I don't understand your point on Giant. You mean they can't afford to spend the extra resources to make hooked rims? I'm sure I'm being thick, sorry.
One topic is missing, and it's the reason I bought my gravel rims hookless: sidewall strength (when hitting rocks): do you think gravel rims should also be hooked or not?
Excellent analysis. Having worked in both the motor vehicle and cycling industry I can honestly say the only common factor between motor vehicle and road bike wheels is both are circular; every single aspect of their construction and dimensions (including pressures) are different by a massive margin. You're the first person I've seen to cover the differences so comprehensively and so succinctly. Great work.
Cheers mate. Had a few email threats today from the fanboys but i stand by my analysis.
@PeakTorque you should publish some of those emails. Let's see what they have to say for themselves. If the facts don't agree with the marketing claims then it isn't difficult to work out which of the two is wrong.
You can't believe how many customers come into the shop I work at and say my tires are flat. The first thing I ask is, "When was the last time you put air on them?" I usually get a month ago. Tell them they need to air at least once a week. The next thing out of their mouth is. My car tires don't need to be aired up like that. Had one guy argued with me for 30 minutes. I finally said to him, " If bicycle tires were like car tires, I would need a machine to mount them, and you would not be able to fix a flat on the side of the road."
Yeah, unfortunately stupid people tend to make stupid arguments and hold onto them confidently. I can't tell you how many dopes I have seen claim that because hookless works fine on an automobile or a truck that means it's perfectly safe and fine for a road bicycle app "just because it is." Not exactly the deepest thinkers on the planet. LOL
Only a brainless twit would think an auto or truck tire is comparable in hookless use to a Kevlar bead floppy 250 gram bicycle tire. But stupid people tend to think in stupid ways. :-)
Thanks for the CAD moulding. Definitely helps understand the manufacturing attractiveness of hookless.
Hey Limey! I am an American without truck, but with an engineering degree - you do good work. Thanks
Bet you got an m1 Garand?
Great analysis PT-but without the invention of the M1 Garand you might be giving this presentation in German!
European safety and health care made possible by thr US military.
@@thomasmoore4319possibly the best come back in history i shall not heckle again
ZERO teams want to ride hookless.
I’ve been calling it out for 3 years now. Good to see hookless getting cancelled like it deserves.
De Gendt was chilling once he had that Roval wheel plugged in.
Excellent video! As an engineer I never understood why the hookless rims was great. Turns out - they're not! I'm glad I stayed with my hooked rims.
I think it depends on the application, if you are light athlete that runs tubless on low pressure then probably it may be a problem, but if you run high pressures of 65+, with proper tyre that sits very tight - don't see any problem. The rims are cheaper so why not 🤪 Enjoying my hookless 404 zipp
@@SpeedBoosted136I think you have this backwards. If you’re lighter, you don’t have much restriction in the usable tire pressure window. If you’re heavy, and require more pressure, you’re likely to be pushed to a larger volume tire (at lower pressure), which I don’t really see being an issue.
@@RyonBeachner thanks for pointing this out. So heavy rider with wider volume tire can keep being safe on hookless? I am shocked that with 28mm GP5000 at 60psi it feels so smooth and still precise in turn-in
@@SpeedBoosted136 Yes, absolutely. ENVE has a good chart for rim width, weight, tire pressure and tire size choice.
1:59 The most rootenist tootenist thing I’ve heard in all my life. Spits in a bucket, ding.
Again, THIS kind of content is what cycling needs. Seriously. (I also notice that your pen is working).
I've always thought that hookless rims on bicycles is a very stupid idea, completely driven by manufacturing considerations, and this video confirms that totally reasonable point of view. The first part with the CAD sketch was very helpful and informative, thank you for posting.
I never looked at a hookless rim profile before, yet upon first glance in your video the design flaw is more than obvious! Looking at that table at the end it's hilarious that the only benefits to hookless are cheaper manufacture, and that speaks volumes.
If you're getting hate from the GCN spectators you've got my support, that lot have bitten into the marketing bullshit into excess for years now.
Great no BS presentation style, really like it. Subscribed.
You always answer the How's and the What's and the Why's - that's why I love your channel 😎💯👍 That's why I am subscribed 👍
Really, really well done video and analysis. It really helped me understand the issue much better. I appreciate all the work that you put into it.
Well said. An exceptional presentation IMO.
Fun fact - original Hutchinson UST road tubeless tires used carbon fiber for the bead material instead of kevlar or steel. At the time, kevlar was considered too elastic. I believe it was Bontrager (again back with the original UST road) used "high modulus" kevlar. I have to believe that most if not all road tubeless tires use something like what Bontrager was using, but maybe they should consider something stiffer again.
I can't believe your post didn't get more likes than just mine. Absolute kudos not for just pointing that detail out, but for offering a dynamic in thinking in different ways. A lot of readers/riders so readily assume what the marketers tell them is the only way of doing things. The term "consumers" comes readily to mind. I have to think that drawing material through a die (a revisit to alloy or an alloy/fibre hybrid, perhaps in a two stage bonding process post die drawn) is the answer. And the machinery to do it is already extant and perfected, but just needs a few tweaks. And save a good wad of cash at the same time.
I was thinking the exact same thing during the presentation 👍
That was great. Thanks for doing such a good job explaining the pros and cons.
Just broke my femur when I got a blowout on my rear zipp 353. I'm not sure if I hit anything or maybe I had the pressure wrong on the tubeless setup. Completely new tire mounted by my bike mechanic the night before 32 mm Continental Grand Prix 5000 AS. Not sure I want to use these wheels anymore.
No good. All the best with a speedy recovery
Get well. Are you in the states? If so have you found your local shops really pushing hookless? Where I am it is being sold and trending, but no one really seems excited to elaborate on the benefits
Blowout as in a puncture or from the tyre coming off the rim? What pressure were you running? Hope you heal up well well and make a full recovery.
Horror story
Bike Industry Marketing/Engineering at it's finest PT!!!
Absolutely awesome analysis!! Thank you for the straight talk.
Thank you for the great analysis both from a consumer as well as a manufacturer point of view. I personally enjoy riding hookless, but I also run wide tires at low pressures. I wouldn't recommend them unless their use case is strictly the same.
There is no doubt that this is simply brilliant, just like always!
Would it make sense to have a hookless design with a thicker sidewall, and then machine out some of the inner side to create a hook? Or just deform it with pressure somehow.
Spot on analysis and exactly what I have been stressing in my conversations with others ever since I saw this design roll out. The number of inventions that have come out to make tubeless a workable solution on road bikes has been fascinating to watch and with the advent of hookless, it has crossed into the absurd, and still that cannot make this product into a genuinely safe product for cyclists. But hey! There’s better profits for the manufacturers, so let’s do it anyway and get our marketing departments to spin it up as the latest and greatest thing!
LightBicycle is introducing a semi-hook (forgot the trade name), that appears to have some bead grip, but has no sharp bends, and so supposedly molds cleanly, is less likely to suffer cracking upon impact, and still offers 5psi extra pressure rating for tubeless. Dunno, but I might consider it with tubes to have most of the safety and most of the impact resistance (if it really provide all this).
I think it was hybrid hook, it's interesting idea would like to know more about it.
I just got a set featuring this hybrid hook and I'm curious how different it is from standard hooks or hookless. Haven't ridden it yet though.
I worked for many years as an injection moulding development engineer, and I concur with what you are saying here about the mould cores and complexity of the tooling and process. This is exactly why I thought they were going for hookless, and I run hooked rims for this reason.
Glad i wasnt talking out my arse then!
Great video as always!!!! I have to admit that I own a pair of hookless wheels (ENVE SES 3.4), I run 28mm tires that are compatible to the system according to ENVE and since I am quite light the pressures I put are relatively “low” no more than 60psi, having said that how concerned should I be? Are those 13-15 psi of margin that I have “safe”? Anyway, thanks for the video always great and very informative
Love the ball bag expression , great wrist watch , top class video
Excellent explanation PT, really easy to understand.
Excellent presentation, thank you.
Great analysis/explanation! Thanks!
Nice work, thank you for that detailed explanation. Re the tire insert: they have multiple functions that interrelate. They protect your rims, they also protect your tires from pinch flatting and they give you, if they fit right, enough support to ride home if you flat and can’t fix your tire. But let me explain why air doesn’t always work. In extreme conditions we experience slick and muddy terrain which demands low air pressure for maximum traction. But we also have to deal with sharp edged rocks which demand high air pressures. How do you solve this problem? Tire inserts! I can comfortably drop the tire pressures to whatever I want to achieve great traction and have no fear of crushing my rims or pinch flatting my tires. Tire inserts have been a huge advancement for those people riding in extreme conditions. They are very confidence inspiring. As to why road racers us them I’m not 100% sure, probably for similar reasons. But clearly everything has its limitations because whatever is was that DeGendt hit totally overwhelmed his inserts, tire and rim. Obviously 28’s are totally unsuitable for hitting rocks. We use 47 to 50’s when dealing with rocky trails and they work reliably.
On the route to the stupids, why not just use a solid, rubber kiddy tire?
Loved this one, agree 100% with everything you said. Well done. 👏🏻👏🏻
Thank you for the comment on the pool noodles on road bikes. Wouldn't the reduced air also affect sealing for gravel and mtb tires as well, as the pool noodle needs to increase in size as the tire width goes up?
The pro's want to ride tubular according to a team director from my country.. They are just not allowed to by sponsors.
fck the sponsors! :)
Excellent analysis, fair play. Great to see the discussions from different perspectives too [manufacturing, reliability, tolerancing, structural]
All just makes me happy with my aluminium rims
Yeah...I was just researching the 'advantages' of fibre vs alloy at a number of sites. There's a lot of 'rote' answers, some of them being quite 'fanciful' (self-serving). I suspect that for the cost of production (or the claimed cost) for fibre rims, a stronger and vastly more practical alloy rim die could be developed. Perhaps even a 'hybrid' with a layer(s) of fibre bonded to the internal surface (in whole or in part).
Imagine if that metal rim could be used as a giant brake rotor so you wouldn’t need a separate brake disc! It would be like a huge disc rotor, and save weight too. They should try that.
Very good video which explains everything about hookless rims. Thanks
Hey PT, you hit the nail on the head for this video. This is why we never considered using hookless for our rims, despite the cost benefits.
Learnt some things there. That's why I like your channel.
I've been saying this from day one the second I saw hookless wheels being pushed. It's a shame that people with technical backgrounds bring this stuff to light and get ignored.
Spank MTB rims have 2 wells for the tire beads (one for each side) - but they have a patent on it…
Light Bicycle rims have a new “hybrid semi hooked” rims on their website. (Silly light, 250g for a road tubeless rim with a 95kg rider weight limit).
One key point that no one seems to be making when saying that hookless rims are dangerous is that the problem only seems to be with road specific rims, NOT gravel or MTB. The issue seems to be the tire width and not hookless technology. The rule of 105 is probably the main issue. Running tires that are narrower than the rim is the factor IMO.
I think i said that in the video. I use on mtb and gravel, and even DH (dt 541)
new subscriber here when you mention the stack up tolerance of mold parts.
How is no one commenting on the lava lamp? Was all I could look at during the whole video
Didn't even see it before read your comment.
@@markusseppala6547I saw it but didn’t think it worth commenting on.
The irony of hookless not being safe in the heat when the only people who can afford them won't ride if the weather is cloudy.
I'm not even close to rich, and I have a set of hookless rims, that came on an OEM wheelset.
@@NoBrakes23 It was a joke of course :) enjoy them, ride carefully this summer!
I enjoy the 'pop' .... 'pop' sound the tyres make when inflated on my hooked rims, very reassuring. Never rolled a tyre, even when they've flatted while decending 👌
Nice analysis. Worth mentioning that hookless works great with lower pressure applications like MTB and gravel!
I did mention that i think. I ride hookless gravel, mtb and DH!! Alu hookless dt 541
@PeakTorque all this sh1t is because of the preoccupation of having to use carbon for rims. Yet there are excellent aluminum rims made that have a proven track record of safety.
It's worth pointing to the attached. Oft quoted but evidently wrong per the actual ETRTO specs, every combo can't use 73psi. It's often quite a bit lower than that. The DeGent scenario with a 25mm width rim and 28mm tires, per this Mavic guideline, indicates max PSI (if 28mm was ok in the first place, would have been less than 63psi. technicalmanual.mavic.com/tech-mavic/technical_manual/data/docs/themes/2_72.pdf
@@PeakTorque
Excellent explanation. Thank you. I now have a limited idea of what it's all about- not that I have any plans to go tubeless, or carbon-rimmed, or hookless!
Excellent video. Thanks for the info.
You hit on the two observations I had after seeing De Gent's wheel, that both appear to be things no one pays any attention too, even tho so many are paid to do just that. The road temp in the Arabian peninsula surely had an effect on pressure, and that the tire volume was compromised by an insert probably played a part as well. I'm not an engineer, but surely a tire with less internal "space" that is being heated by the desert tarmac is even more prone to a blow out.
Nah, he just hit a pot hole or debris and destroyed the rim.
@@portland675 Not according to him he didn't, and I'll take his word over the claims of some anonymous internet clowns. 🙂
@@rcg9573 he did. 100%. Rim was destroyed in an impact. Does he remember what he hit or when? Who knows. But that rim was totaled. Has nothing to do with the brand or the bead hook whatsoever.
Great video! thanks for the perspective. I think your right on. FYI there is no person that drives an F250 that would give a crap about this subject. F250 is a work truck not for arm chair weight weenies.
Great video. One point I found confusing is that at 21:10 he seemed to indicate that the Conti S TR tire is more difficult to mount because it's made to run tubeless, but I found it considerably easier than the clincher. For reference, this was going from a 28 clincher to 30mm S TR. No comparison, the 30mm S TR was much easier.
great explanation
This video is so good! Thank you!
Nice mold design and I'm sure some factories are using something similar but I believe the standard practice in the industry is to use a single piece mandrel, even in hooked rims. In order to remove it they make it out of a soft material which is permanently deformed during extraction and must therefore be disposed of after a single use. This is obviously also less cost effective than the reusable mandrels in hookless rim manufacture.
Tubular tires are the answer but I forgot what the question was. 🤔😉
I started using Donnelly cyclocross tubulars that have airtight casing like tubeless. They are perfectly straight, and are compatible with sealant and dynaplugs. I think Continental makes a road tire like that, too.
I'm still glueing 22mm tubs, 20 years on, running €200 clincher fot training with cheap €20 beaded tires and butyl tubes. No compressors, not tires coming off the rim, seldom get punctures (last one in training was 2016).
I look on in puzzlement at the "developments" in the bike industry.
Have to make new things to keep selling product, or you're reduced to just selling spares. I don't know who or what body regulates these designs for safety. Glue tires to rims, what a silly idea :)
Well, since the launch of Hookless Tech - I've given up on those Brands that banded together to con consumers in believing "That Hookless Is the Next Best Thing!!". BTW I only ride highend wheels and I refused to put my life in this silly tech. Finally, a technically and scientific presentation against Fake Marketing/Manufacturing Costs - Safety is never part of the Equation. Oh yes, and that ultra low pressure inflation to aid increase speed is a joke too....Thank you Peak Torque for Slamming Zipp and all others(Hookless Crowns)....
as an American I can say I very much enjoyed your American accent impression. Yes it's a caricature, but a pretty good/accurate one!
Great explanation to a problem which seems to be easily discarded or speaken out for in a too simple way.
This is Gerald Undone level thoroughness 😂
Camera guy ❤
Great video man! Hookless on road is pure bottom-line thing for companies - prices are definitely not lower than hooked, while you get inferior product, which on top costs more in usage (TR tires cost more, need sealant) - not counting in the risk of crash...
Yeah I also thinking it doesn't make sense to use a mousse and still expect tubeless sealant to work. The mousse occupies nearly all of the volume inside. I guess if you use a smaller mouse it could still work. It could also be possible to use a mousse specifically designed to allow sealant to flow through it.
As an mech engineer myself I love this very much
Liked and subscribed just for the spot-on impression of people from my country
I rode the Etapé last year on tubeless, but hooked rims. My riding companion (although we separated on the road) remarked afterwards that he had seen several bikes with tyres blown off with sealant everywhere. He put it down to tubeless technology and I laughed. But it was 35° at times and I wonder if they were hopeless (I'll leave the autocorrection in place) rims?
Nice watch! Is that a seiko gmt? The orange is so deep and vibrant.
Excellent video, you have gained a subscriber
Add raised humps at the center drop transition. Pump until it pops over, deflate to operating pressure.
I use the Zipp 454 with Conti GP5000S TR 28mm in tubeless setup. I am easily able to mount the tyres on the rims with my hands. It is harder to dismount the tyres the tyres from the rim. So I have been able to dismount the tyres only with the help of tyre levers.
I used to disagree with a lot of what you said as I found it based purely on engineering needs rather than real world needs. Glad to see you take the other side sometimes. I'll start watching more of your videos again! Hookless is fine for MTB but not on the road due to the pressures.
All of this is why I went back to pure clinchers. I am a sports rider, and losing an hour out on the road trying to get a tubeless tire on while the group stands around is out of the question. The power gained from tubeless is just too small to bother with. Also, you have a hard time getting the presta valve to seal on cheap TPU tubes, which make clinchers still easier to mount.
Seems to me that the going wider trent tire wise is lagging behind the rim tech, resulting in a miss match of too narrow tires which are used at too high a pressure.
De Gendt said he hit something btw
According to vittoria the rim broke because of that.
Also it is aerodynamic to use rims that are wider then the tire when fitted, but there us a high risk since the rim can hit an object directly with the tire not mushrooming.
enjoyed this one very much!
Have to talk about the layers of tape teams are using. An easy solution is to inconsistent tire beads is increase layers and use min. tire pressure needed to seat the bead as a reference. Also hand mounting difficulty would be lower if the rim troughs were made deeper.
Nice video, I also believe the prepreg layup is simpler with hookless - with fewer strips to cut and lay in place saving further time and money
You Rock! Cycling industry just went kuku for the last 5 years or so. Everything is money and numbers. I am riding hooked with Vittoria latex tubes. Over 60000km on crapy roads 2 puncures in total on my current bike (one was valve stem problem)
Pros would be happier and safer riding 28 tubulars glued on a nice wide tubular rim.
Relieved that the Zipp 353 NSW wheels that I have should be okay for the application I use the for. Gravel. Running 700x38 Rene Herse (on the approved list) tubeless and never higher than 45psi. Had no issues with installation.
Very well explained for carbon rims so can you explain the reasons for hookless aluminium rims which require a simple extrusion. My wife is awaiting delivery of a Ribble CGR it has hookless aluminium rims and even though I offered to pay more for hooked they said they couldn’t offer an alternative.
Would using tubes make them safer or more dangerous. It’s a definite concern
Thanks
I presume its slightly easier to extrude alimini in a hookless shape but its never been an issue with hookless. So I don’t know. A slight cost saving. There is data out there from Rene Herse cycles that says using tubes does increase the retention capacity
@@PeakTorque Thanks for your reply. I will check out René Hearse
I think the Vittoria pool noodle collapses under the inflation pressure so the volume loss is much smaller than some of the inserts that are true pool noodle inserts. My understanding was that most of the motivation was to make sure the liner did not touch the tire and increase Crr, but increased air volume and sealant also makes sense.
That pool noodle is stiff as hell. Won’t compress much at all. It’s not gas. Still solid.
Thanks for the prsentstion. Road Hookless is a no go for me due to my weight but I know that. I wonder how many wheels and bikes are sold to people that don’t know how marginal their safety limits are or over.
Had idea of using the new straight wall mold method with extra thick walls then chucking partially disassembled mold in a lathe for machining in the hooks. However, the hook area wouldn't end up as strong, but could have fewer voids. Economy increase would be dependent on old hooked molds' yield.
will we ever see rims molded hookless with extra material so hooks can be machined in afterwards?
Patent that! Maybe.
Nice. Had the same idea myself
Yeah I was thinking about this as well, pretty sure the manufactures did too. Maybe not as easy? Can you mill out CF and it stays strong?
no, you can't. But if you make a hybrid cf housing/alloy extra material to be removed after, it can and will work for sure@
Ha, I just commented the same idea. My concern is that machined carbon hook profile wouldn't be as strong as carbon "forged" into the hook profile. The pressure "forging" method will have fibers conforming to the hook curve, while the machined version will have fibers cut in the middle. The machined version would be more dependent on resin strength.
Always hooked rims with latex tubes for road. Tubeless (still hooked) for MTB
Too much to go wrong with tubeless road, given the smaller tyres, IMO.
Perfect video, i wish more people would understand how dangerous hookless really is.
Can an approved tire today not be approved after a certain number of installations, or inflations. because the bead contact point stretched over time?
hookless is actually less aero btw as the steeper beed angle flattens the tyre, mushrooms the sidewall and lowers the DAM and widens the WAM (things you learn being a 3T Bike ambassador and having tight as seatstay clearance.
When your rims are extruded aka, aluminium, there are no molds and no temptation to cut costs by simplifying complexity and compromising safety redundancies. Just saying. I love these PT vids. So educational and clearly presented.
Bought some new wheels recently, chose the option with hooks as the tires I wanted to run weren't hookless compatible. Will continue to avoid on anything except my MTB.
Quick question - rear carbon wheel sounded like it had sand or pebbles in it, took off the tyre and tape and it turned out to be little bits of carbon ( painfully slow to get out piece by piece) same issue now a few months later, repeated process, inflated tyre again after and another bit is rattling around. No visible damage anywhere, new wheels from top brand. Running tublesss which has made it a painful process each time.
As a tester of many wheels i thought you might have experienced this?
Amazing that US manufactures have resorted to hookless. My light bicycle wheels (hooked) were 1200 with top of the line hubs and shipped to my door. I am also still confused about the tubeless tires. My buddy used to ride tubeless 10 years ago on his HED wheels with GP4000's and gatorskins and never had a problem with the tires back then. But now they seemingly call this ghetto tubeless.
Wait what? There was never a tubeless version GP 4000's. The first version that Conti made for road tubeless was the GP 5000 TL, which were notorious for its difficult mounting. They were discontinued fairly quickly in favor of the S TR and A TR versions.
@@ynie1 If I recall correctly we used tire sealant in a GP4000 and it worked on a set of HED Belgium Wheels.
How much does a carbon rim compress in use? I've heard several people say that with tubless its necessary to mount a tyre before the wheel build can be finished, or it goes slack. This means that there is stress from lacing and again from the hoop stress in the tyre, is this leaving the rim undersized? Then if you reduce the circumference of the tyre bed, does that then leave the sidewall 'slack' and more prone to wrinkelling, particularly if it is less stiff for a hookless setup than for hooked, in hooked there is more material closer to the outer perimeter, making the side wall stiffer. Fundamentally, it feels like this could work fine, if the tolerance is good and everything is good and stiff, but maybe we are just pushing the safety margins too far with 1200g wheelsets.
Give this guy a medal!
Really well explained
Not disagreeing, but just sharing my experience with hookless.
I've bought my current aluminum gravel wheels (Mavic Allroad) before I even new what "hookless" means. I've always ran them tubeless with 35-38mm tires at 2.5-3 bar. They seem to work fine. Given how taking the tires off is usually a major PITA, I'm not too worried about them rolling off. Limited tire choice definitely sucks.
I'll definitely be avoiding hookless for road wheels and my next gravel wheels most likely will be hooked, though it might take a while, because these Mavic wheels seem to be bombproof.
Question: How were the braking surfaces of carbon rim brake wheels made? Did they come out of the mold ready to go or did they have to be machined? If machined, can you think of a way if making a carbon rim where you can machine in the hook safely?
They were in-moulded. Machining is possible but you're going to mill through a lot of continours fibre layers considerably weakening them . Do-able but needs serious work.
@@PeakTorque I guess you could factor the machining in the layup so that you only machine away from a resin filled part of the sidewall but not easy to do and has the possibility if error in each rim.
Very good video. Thank you for posting.
I wrote somewhere:
What happened to hookless and tubeless wheel design over last few years? Manufacturers like Roval had to reinforce the wheels and add 100-20 grams of weight, so that wheels can withstand pro riders requirements. What is the average weight of a pro rider? Probably around 75 kg. What is the weight of an amateur Average Joe in my part of Europe? According to some statistisc 89 kg. So you probably need to add extra sealant and to further reinforce the wheel to be on the safe side. Where does that lead us? To heave inferior, heavy wheels where tire can come off the wheel if there is sudden air decompression. Does that happen? Yes it does.I'm in my 50-ties, my vision deteriorated. It happened to me to hit an object like big pothole or some debris in the mountains when descending at high speed. On clincher tires with a tube my tire never came off the rim fortunately. Would hookless tire came off the rim in that case when the cut is that big that sealant is not able to deal with it? Most probably.
Why would I ride inferior, heavier and unsafe design then? Because they are cheaper?
What was the purpose of carbon wheelset? To have lighter wheels than alloy wheels. Is hookless design fulfilling this purpose? IMO it's not. For an Average Joe, clinchers were the choice because it was too much hassle with tubulars. How many flat tires did I get on clinchers with tubes? 1 per season. Is it a problem? None at all. Is tubeless a design you can always depend on? It's not. I've seen situations where tire wouldn't seal for unknown reasons. So you still have to carry a spare tube and a pump. And good luck to take this tire off if it's cold or it rains and put it back on. It takes me 3-5 minutes max with a tube.
There's some good analysis here, and I have no doubt that some manufacturers use a hooked / crotched mold as you have shown here. However, I know for a fact that at least some rim manufacturers (who control their own manufacturing - not contracted) do not use steel hooked plates when molding the hooks.
Instead, they use a silicon mold piece to shape the hooks, that can be pulled out from under the hooks due to the flexible nature of this hook mold. Unfortunately, this means they cannot achieve the same compaction pressure and consistency you get from a steel mold - so from a manufacturing perspective looking at hooked vs hookless, hookless means simpler molds *that also* significantly improve compaction in the sidewall area. End result is a slightly simpler mold than you have imagined here, but with compromises to the finished product.
I cant find the quote, but i remember when hookless was being introduced that it was described as giving "better compaction because of the ability to use a rigid mold in the center" so i wonder if your hooked mold is actually reflecting how its actually done. I wonder if its actually a flexible bladder forming the rim bed.
The reduction in manufacturing cost was described as being able to use a metal plug with hookless as opposed to a flexible one that didn't last as long and had to be regularly replaced.
I’ve read that hooked carbon rims manufacturing uses disposable foam molds for the rim bed and sidewalls
Great video PT and as always a very clear explanation.
But, are we just getting too obsessed with safety issues?
In reality how many failures are there per 1,000 hookless riding hours (for instance) as I suspect it’s statistically insignificant.
How many failures are caused by people not following what are fairly simple instructions regarding tyre pressure, internal rim width vs tyre size etc?
Missing the point imo. The guidelines are unsafe, not enough safety factor. Im all for guidelines but mass produced products need a higher safety and MUST be idiot proof.