Will Bikes Become A Subscription-Based Product? | Dirt Shed Show 487
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- In this week's GMBN Dirt Shed Show, Martyn Ashton is joined by Rich Payne to ask the question, will the future of mountain bike tech be subscription-based? Martyn’s been obsessed with Tesla lately and thinks the bike industry might start to charge subscriptions. With more and more electronic mtb tech he thinks hardware can be built and later improved with software subscriptions, similar to Tesla’s self-driving capability subscription!
Plus MTB News, Sickest Thing, Hacks And Bodges, Caption Contest, and Hacks And Bodges, plus some Super Nice bikes locked away in the Bike Vault!
⏱ Timestamps ⏱
00:00 - Intro
00:59 - Rich’s Race Round Up
05:27 - Will MTB’s Go Subscription?
12:19 - News
14:34 - Sickest Thing Of The Week
15:46 - GMBN Shop Shout Out
15:34 - Hacks And Bodges
19:00 - Comments (needs board)
21:04 - Caption Contest (needs board)
23:08 - On The Channel
23:48 - Bike Vault
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What do you think about subscription service in MTB? Would you pay for extras from your bike?
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What do you think about subscription service in MTB? Would you pay for extras from your bike? 🤔
No.
No. I find the concept of "over the air" upgrades abhorrant. I'm only OK with them with the caveat that they should never have the power to take anything away from me once I purchased it, regardless of how I hack it and "steal" their hidden upgrades. If they're OK with the rubes paying for the extras while the resourceful people figure ways around their "locked gates" then I'm OK with it as a concept.
Finance schemes inflated and ruined housing and cars. But bikes got out of hand even before that. So go ahead!
I guess my first concern is surface damage to the bike. Where does that fit in? And, do we need some kind insurance in case we break something expensive on the bike? Lastly, a car has a odometer: if I ride gently three times a week over 60km and my mate rags through the steeps without falling off too much once a week over 20km, how is that going to be measured as part of the monthly payments (unlike on a car, a built in odometer isn’t going to cut it for assessing overall ‘wear’). Still, it’ll happen. And, there will be a lot of tears too.
Absolutely not
I will never pay a subscription for using bike tech.
There is nothing on a bike that could convince me to pay a subscription unless it was like a service package through a shop. And then I would just abuse it.
No 1984 shit for me
Martyn woke up today to spread nightmarish dystopian ideas
always! 😅 did you see this one? 👉 czcams.com/video/ySkQ9ckEq3o/video.html
Don’t let me give you nightmares.
Please no. Please please please no. BMW had to reverse (no pun intended) a lot of their plans on the subscription based model due to widespread customer kick back.
That's what i was about to comment. Heated seats as a subscription lastet less than 3 (?) months...
I'm a Software Engineer, I'd spend the effort to hack it all myself. Stick the overrides on the internet for free. Just a heads up for manufacturers.
Please hack the EP8 to give us the EP801 functionality.
Fellow in Switzerland wrote a program for farmers. Before the right to repair passed.
He also gave them the program, not cost.
If MTB's do the Tesla method then the bikes will be more expensive right off the bat, then being told to pay a monthly fee for those features to be enabled is a big nope from me.
Leasing could work for some people, the type who commute or just never maintain their bikes etc will be all over it, but many riders like to upgrade their bikes over time and things like basic repairs or replacing parts would be wildly more complicated.
A lease to own scheme would be handy though, if you leased a bike and didn't swap it out after a set period of time then you got to keep it, would really make a big difference for those brands currently struggling to sell bikes due to the expense of a new bike.
Bike Leasing is a really big thing in germany. Many companies offer it. You pay for the bike directly of your loan (before taxes) monthly for 3 years. After that period you can decide if you buy it for the rest of the remaining money or give it back.
Totally ruined the local bikeshop prices, cause everyone buys shitbikes for 5k+ now. So even shit bikes are priced extremely high, cause they know people will buy it.
I already have a subscription to my local bike park....
As for monthly fees for heated seats and more power in cars: no thank you. Monthly fee for anything related to my bikes: no thanks.
Just canceled Disney, HBO (MAX) and Apple TV last month. Cannot stand any "subscription model" I am trying to get out of ALL OF THEM as much as I can ... (solar panels + EV is next I am done with this monthly sh1t .... internet is needed for work ...
Imagine paying for internet just like for power and water, some amount per Mbit. Be watching GMBN in 144p
I totally agree subscription doesn't and shouldn't work for something that is made and sold once - bikes, seat heating, movies -, but anything reliant on continous service like bikeparks, internet, broadcasting and properly functioning bikes only profits from continuous payments in small installment.
You will own nothing and be happy.
Just posted the same comment and then saw yours, great minds eh. 😅
and eat the bugs
We can eat a cricket burger before we go pay for our ebike rental at the trailhead with an app. Don't forget about paying the loan on your helmet too. Always wear a helmet.
World Economic Forum Mtb ltd lol lol😂😂
Fuck that shit
Hey guys thanks for showing my bike. I had the Deviate highlander. Shigura, however, was not a typo. It's shimano xt levers with magura mt7 calipers. They have the same off/on feel of shimano, but greater power with the magura calipers.
I did wonder when they read it out, like, surely it's not the first time they've come across the term Shigura? 😅
Was surprised they'd never heard of that before!
So you would definitely recommend a Shigura set-up as opposed to a straight Shimano, Magura or SRAM? Just considering it is all. Cheers
@@EchoFoxtrott1 I personally use and love TRP DHR-Evos, but know a few qualified people that rate the Shigura combo highly.
@@EchoFoxtrott1 I only went with this setup because I already had both. They do feel great, better than each setup by themselves, but you still have to deal with the endless disk rub that Magura is known for. I have a tiny bit of rub in the back, but cant tell while riding.
"no" subscription
Well done, I have been watching almost every dirst shed show since like 2016 and this is the first one that pissed me off. Subscriptions have no place imo.
Thank you for the views, and I hope I go another 400+ shows before I piss you off again.
@@martynashton3607 no hard feelings, it's your job to open dialogue about current topics and you do a great job of it. I appreciate what you do 👍.
The day I'm unable to own a fully analog bike is the day I'll quit riding. Not interested in any subscriptions for my bike. If I own the hardware, I should be able to use it fully, no ifs or buts
Shigura is when you mix Shimano leavers and Magura calipers
Shimano... Magura...= Shigura
Aahhhhh genius I didn’t know that, thanks
how don't they know it?
@@richardpayne5176 When I wrote the description of my bike (the Deviate) I wrote what Shigura ment, then I deleted it, thinking, they must know what this means.
maybe I'll submit that for Top Mods. Also congrats on your redemption at the 24h of Old Pueblo. Next time you're in the Phoenix area come to the Hawes Trail system in Mesa, Its better than south mtn,
Mate, that is great. So obvious now you say it, but thanks for enlightening me.
@@adrnln_jnke Ha ha you’d have thought 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ makes perfect sense, nice one dude keen to try it myself now. Happy shredding 👊
If anyone in the bike world (manufacturers, suppliers, etc.) are picking up on that idea, Martyn needs to pay for the first month for all of us, just to get a reality check... Waiting on the dirt shed show after that and his face revealing the "number". 😂😊
Oh no 😢
I think Shigura is when you combine Shimano levers with Magura calipers.
Basically you get Shimano lever feel with Magura power. It works because they both use mineral oil and Shimano barbs and olives fit on Magura hoses.
It's less about the lever feel and more about the quality of Magura's "carbotecture" material.
Well, there's always the old fashion way of riding. Just peddling lol
I think subscriptions are a nightmarish idea. I prefer to pay for my bikes outright.
I think subscriptions open the door for manufacturers to increase the price of their bikes, like leasing a car, etc..
Subscription systems fall short for any service where users' usage affects wear and tear.
You got John with a subscription for a downhill bike, but he throws it into every rock he sees and constantly needs to fix/tune/replace parts, because he doesn't care to ride smooth, just wanted to ride comfortable.
Then you got Bob who is passionate about biking and picks his lines, does his best to ride well and can work on his bike. Because if that, Bob won't need as many replacement parts.
Very good point.
Have you seen the movie called "Falling down"? That's me the second bikes go into subscription-based model.
I’d like a ham and cheese womelette with wam fries….. hahaha yeah, me too. Even angrier when refused breakfast when there is still 3 minutes to go
Reminds me on the BMW heated seat subscription... Or Tesla subscription fees to get more horsepower out of your car. Buy something and pay again to enable it? Forget it. Every company forcing this BS on us deserves a massive boycott or even bankruptcy...
what a complete f***ing joke
Paying for something that you already paid for when you bought something in the first place is outrageous and should offend you as a consumer. If you bought a bottle of beer and you had to also pay to open the cap, you would not be a happy camper.
Most of these ideas are simply to fleece the customer further.
Will never pay a subscription fee to ride. If that happens then I'll just not support those companies.
Next step you'll have to stop riding and watch a commercial on your phone to get your subscription bike to move.
So the consumer pays for the hardware upfront and then pay to use what they already own.
Also additional tools and training for the service technicians to fix what is not working after the “owner?” has tried to add under glow lights.
Subscription for extra features after paying out thousands..... Feck that
I started riding MTB 5 years ago . I’ve been leasing a bike the whole time, which is a kind of subscription. I never had to wash the bike, change spares, maintenance etc. The cost is partly paid for by my employer which is tax deductible for them since physical training is encouraged nationwide. Effectively I’ve been able to ride 4 Trek models each year and yet I have not yet spent the money for a full-sus bike. The bikes can be used by more people since I only ride 1-2 times a week. The season is short (snow free about 7 months). Win-win for all 🇸🇪👍🏻
Martyn should know Shigura brakes (mentioned in the bike vault) as the trials boys are well into them - it's Shimano levers with Magura calipers (they both use mineral oil, so are compatible) I think for the stopping power of magura with the modulation of Shimano.
Subscription based tech is likely to die. All it takes is one person to say "screw that" and introduce something into the market that you only have to pay for once. The auto industry is quickly finding out it was a big mistake
#Captioncontest: When you and your wife have a fight on who makes the best bike, you have to end up in a place worse than the doghouse, you end up in the airport lounge
Some companies are already offering lease bikes, places like Volt, Hurrecane, etc... Not quite what you were talking about, but it's easy to see this progressing when you look at electric car manufactueres putting so much behind paywalls. I guess if we move further in the lease direction depends on how well companies like Volt, Hurrecane, etc... are doing. Maybe test them out?
When you rent your bike (on any level) you'll get denied to use your bike when your social credit score falls below a threshold. No thanks.
I do object to paying money for something I'll never own. I like to have something to show for my money.
However I do like this idea when it comes to kids bikes where when the kid grows out of the bike you just swap it for the next size up. But looking into it, you pay a monthly fee or subscription and end up with basically a £100 Halfords bike, so in the long run it probably makes more sense to buy £100 bike and pay another £100 when the time comes.
Think Decathlon fers this for kids bikes
The lease model is the worst thing ever, if that becomes too accessible manufacturers will start pumping out 20k bikes and fools will buy them. That's a bit what manufacturers credit plans has already done to this industry, even before the pandemic. People often ignore this but it's a big part why manufacturers get away with such ridiculous margins
In Germany we already have that kind of thing except for the "upgrades" . A lot a friend's do so called "job rad" and everything is included in a monthly fee with the option to switch bikes after X years
Ohhh interesting... So currently if you buy a bike on credit card or with a loan or with the 'Cycle to Work' scheme - you are already tied into a monthly payment. I like the idea of the lease, but there is a big question about upgrades (normally not allowed to modify) and damage (which is inevitable). Thinking about a subscription service, it would need to be driven by software and given the weight sacrifice, it is unlikely that bikes will ever be sold with kit 'turned off' (and with the ability to just be ignored). However, I can foresee 'additional' features being available by payment (probably a combination of one-off versus a subscription model)...with a doubt this will start with a warranty sign-up model. i.e. to get that e-bike motor to start you have to connect it to the internet - this will check for software updates etc before signing you up for the warranty....then they have your contact details and all the data they need (and shops will have a demo mode which unlocks the motor for limited testing). It is inevitable.....
The big difference between like, Tesla self driving or BMW heated seats and MTB tech is, weight is a pretty minimal driver for the cars. On a bike, adding the hardware without getting the benefit means you could make the bike significantly lighter and sell more bikes. Maybe for something like unlocking additional motor performance that might come at the expense of motor or battery life, but not anything that would add weight.
The PCP hire model might work for the top spec bikes, especially those that are almost the same price as a brand new base level city car. However these schemes are often used to inflate prices and make exiting the scheme extremely expensive. As for the subscriptions for high end features, I don't want to see it. There are too many subscription services in other industries that already take all your disposable income, we don't need any more.
#letstalkabout sorting many more GMBN "game of bike" productions. They are so far and few between.
Also talk about giving my green bike a super nice in The Bike Vault. 😂
And last of all, why is Martyn wearing an EMBN hoodie in his little InstaVid? 😮
#letstalkabout ... the DSS is perfect, of course 😉 Just came here to say that I always love the shows with guests - industry experts, pro athletes, etc. Really enjoyed the ones where you recorded a podcast to extend the conversation beyond the show, too.
#captioncontest When the company card doesn't get you into the club lounge.
Bring back the klunkers if that's the plan, at least for me. But over-paying for tech has never been my thing. Buy a bike and then buy upgrades as you can afford them and actually want them. It's fun.
Problem with it is that if your bikes stolen your still have to pay your subscription. If you buy your bike and insure it maybe a better option
Shigura brakes are actually a thing; it’s when you use Shimano levers with Magura calipers, many people are doing it.
Also, zero interest in subscription services for bikes, or cars for that matter!
Martyn asked for ideas in the comments. I love the show. I just worry that it is diminished by a desire to create other weekly shows and one-off segments. The channel works best when it has the Shed as its center of gravity. Maybe some of the other vids and shows should be pieces of the Dirt Shed Show.
#captioncontest Owen still waiting for Rich to pick him up at the airport in Arizona. No one told him he wasn't on the Old Pueblo team this year.
Subscriptions will drive consumers towards Chinese manufacturers and/or unofficial software changes. And I'd be one of them
BMW tried it with heated seats and people had none of it
If I payed a subscription I would expect the product to be upgraded when the new model comes out. And pay low or zero upfront. What company out there thinks they can sell you a product (quite a high price point for bikes these days) then charge you to use what you’ve paid for already ?
South Africa kicked butt at the UCI world cup this weekend! Greg Minnaar and Alan Hatherly! Proudly South African!
Leasing would be a good idea for emtbs, considering the over-price crap can't even make it to the end of its own warrenty without multiple motor replacements.
wheel lease is not a subscriction service its a purchasing service. subscriptions have to do with paying to even use the thing which you already paid for. ie you get 6 out 12 gears for free but if you want to use all 12 you have to pay 5 dollars a month.
Don't get confused, one thing is selling hardware, another is selling software, another one is selling a subscription or constant recurrent service... I'm ok with paying for the hardware on my bike or my tesla, i'm ok with paying for extra software upgrades that i consider useful, if there are enough constant recurrent upgrades i would consider paying a subscription to constant unlimited software upgrades, but i will not pay a subscription for a limited software feature unlocked on my hardware as a service... I would pay extra money for upgrading my brakes software to include ABS, but one shot, not subscribe to have that enabled or disabled ABS...
Just watched the bodge thing with that kids bike. Woukdnt it just be easier to get a small camelbak instead of going through all that effort to fit a bottle. Looks pretty good mind
Mikado were doing that with V-Stabi and V-Stabi Pro & Bail Out over ten years ago. Buy basic V-Stabi for $330 but if you want all the real tuning functionality and bail out functions, that'll be another $100 thanks.
You want future updates, that'll be $50 each.
You guys need to give the dated bikes some love. Not every bike rides is brand new. Heck I still ride my bike I have from 1998. And yes I even have the Madura rim brakes on a bike and yes old MTB bikes are still rad
Thanks for choosing my caption guys
And i forgive you for butchering my name 😂 (if it sounds like my name i listen to it😂)
Wait! Do anti lock brakes stop you skidding ?
Whaat
Skids are one of the coolest things about mountain biking
The legendary Jason Mcroy taught us so.
Ps thank you for bring us both getta a grip and Chain spotting mega cudos to the max woop
Pps you guys are all inspirations
Depending on the people who ride working 3months of the company enabling these features you’ll be able to do it your self. Self tuning cars etc is a massive after market thing. I can check and tune my own car for less than a hundread pounds it will become a bike thing too
Hi guys, great show today - the first segment (future brand upgrades) really interests me. I wondered if you're aware that some e-bike manufacturers (bare with me) have built-in software that locks out the motor to the owner, whereby you need to go to a dealer/regional brand HQ, to get it unlocked, with the removal/freighting, refitting costs back to owner? Whether they're trying to protect their product, this doesn't feel right or legal? I had an error which locked motor, saying bikes top speeds been tampered with, which it hadn't 100% nope! Had to pay $350 to dealer to get fixed, no choice. Don't believe cause known either?? Money earner for .......?
I hope its more like a lease, have it for a year with a monthly payment, and an option to buy it out at the end of the term, or let it go and move to something else. Might actually save me money long term, but I do have questions about upgrades, customizations and who wpuld be reaponsible for covering maintenance.
The horrific depreciation on bikes would need to be addressed or the payment would be £300+ per month to just cover it, never mind adding interest and option to buy on top of it too.
F no, the only scenario where subscription is ever ok is when the technology cannot (and I mean can not, and not "will not because we wont let it") run on the device itself and requires external cost external service to run or the service itself is working on device without a subscription, but by subscribing you're getting updates (but only if upgrads stay offline after they are fully paid for)
😂 i mean, there's Swapfiets and such. And whatever gets silly, but soon more intelligent and social people out of their automobile cars is a great thing :) bring it on.
The subscription model is the worst that can be. You own nothing and you're ripped off every single time. Also, the best thing about owning a bike is to tinker with it, modify it and make it your own. The bike is the extension of your personality. Another thing is that the new bikes are already over priced and service costs are also steep. No need for monthly subscriptions.
I thought Martin was smarter than this. The whole subscription model is some lame, candy ass shit. I get it, its a sign of the times...but this willful reliance on technology is so pathetic. Our grandfathers are rolling in their graves.
It's like BMW making heated seats a subscription based thing in the states, it didn't work there and we're not really on e-bikes here and honestly you'd just hack it anyway
Why not do a bike vault - Bikes you’ve had for years but can’t get rid of !
Will they? Not if nobody buys them. I sure wouldn't.
In the Netherlands we do have a bike subscription for city bikes. And it is an all in fee more or less.
Subs are a bad idea, but I think what will happen if it the big guys start charging, then smaller companies will come out with one time payment options.
As a youtuber there has been a bunch of controversy in the list weeks with Adobe subscriptions. Lots of channels are telling people how to get free or one time payment alternatives to their software.
Closer to home a company made a motorcycle airbag crash vest that only worked if you pay the monthly sub. There was massive push back and I don't think the product was very successful.
In the case of Tesla... that is basically a scam. Autopilot doesn't really work. Elon has said that despite previous claims it cannot ruin properly on version 3.0 and older of the hardware... and most experts don't think it can work as claimed on v4.0 either.
I don't think anyone is freaky going to complain much about a payment for a new fimware update that upgrades features. That happens all the time. I just don't see most consumers posting monthly for something like that.
Of course maybe price discrimination fixes that itself.
Maybe XTR gets pay to play features not available on XT. The difference between tier 1 and 2 products are so small now that maybe an increased feature set is the next logical differentiator... and if you are willing to spend the hundreds needed for what is otherwise just a minor weight saving and bragging rights, maybe you will continue to pay for the ability of your seatpost to know to auto lower when the bike sees you are about to drop in.
Me, I am waiting for my non dropper seatpost to show up so I can upgrade my new epic evo to xt for more lightness.
I can see me trying the lease model since it could give you a chance to try new tech before buying. No way would I do a subscription.
Sounds good but customizing, modifying and upgrading our bikes is where half the fun is
Cardo attempted this not so long ago on their communications devices and they got a overwhelming f’ off and people stating they were going to change echo systems because of it. Soon after they changed their marketing plans. This model works for children/toddlers bikes, who need a new one every five minutes but not for the majority of adults.
That business model will get killed on maintenence. Ride it like you stole it.
Leasing a bike? I'd rather build one from scrap and trash from the side of the road!
Remember Bosch did a power upgrade a few years ago 😊
I truly dislike any subscription on something you had to pay quite a sum upfront for. Currently the beauty of EMTB is the new features and over the air updates. It makes you feel the investment was worth it. Of a subscription model to use something like breaks came out ... I can already see people suing manufacturers when they crash as there credit card expired 😂.
Interesting concept, don't think it will be too big in MTB but likely will have a place, could even have a flexible plan where you increase payments for a month if that was the month you were going on an epic adventure and needed more power?! Also, what would happen in races, more money gets you an advantage.....
Firmware updates aren't something new. Look at all the expensive cameras these days, they get updated with free and new features every now and then. Updates should be seen as a way to take care of your clients and not another way to squeeze more money from someone who've paid thousands of dollars for their equipment. I'll gladly buy components from a company that takes care of their users.
I foresee a very near future comprising of numerous MTB brake subscription users writing e-mails from A & E to complain about how dead they are.
If my motor X comes with X capability but I only get Y until I subscribe, I WILL EITHER HACK OR NOT BUY OUTRIGHT
I'd pay for a speed limit removal subscription 😂
Subscription Gearing you have to pay a subscription to use the big ring or get off and walk up the hill 🤔
Simple! If a company want me to buy their products but then want me to subscribe to ‘services’ to have that product work, sorry but it’s a no from me, I’ll go buy from a different company
Leasing a bike I could see working for some people but not all, esp with how expensive bikes are getting these days. Subscriptions for updates for features like cars are doing ummm hell no. It will be up to us consumers to just say no to this.
I have a green hardtail and Rich I'm considering that a verbally binding contract
#AskGMBN What big differences are there between hardtails and full suspension mountain bikes down technical black trails
Purple is harder because after you get black and blue, you turn purple?
Green Hardtails???? Who would have thought? Guess I should have saved mine for a few more weeks. Bike Vault Episode 477 catomchik.
Brakes, just $20 per month, or 20 cents per use, you decide...
*You on a budget going down a steep hill with a sharp turn* - I can't afford to brake todaaaaaaaaaaaay!!1
#ASKGMBN can I mullet my 29inch Rocky Mountain altitude aluminium as I want a bit more of a ride playful bike
#captioncontest
Owen's response when he found out there was more e bike tech than regular mtb tech at this years eurobike.
#captioncontest having a deserved nap after diligently plugging the GMBN MTB maintenance mag FOREVER!
One of those green hardtail owners is me… and it’s a cannondale. Do I win?
I financed my last bike...so I'm already paying monthly to ride 🤣
Ive got to say it sounds like a good idea but it reminds me of the vertual dollar. Where the government can turn our money on or off. It does sound good but what if your paying your script to have your bike do things and the company decides you weren’t very nice the last time you went to the store for an upgrade and the store turns off your tech while your out riding!
Hey @gmbn thanks so much for showing my kid's custom bike in hacks & bodges, made my day! how do I get in touch to get that gmbn top? preferably in kid's size :)
Congratulations 🎉 drop us a message on Facebook and we will get it to you!
Martyn, you can take that idea and duck right off! When you get there duck off some more 😂