Flanged vs. Floater
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- čas přidán 11. 12. 2016
- Tim breaks down the differences between a flanged axle rear end housing and a full floater housing.
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The information contained in this video is based on the opinion of Tim McAmis and his 30+ years in the motorsport and manufacturing industries. Any action you take based upon the content provided shall be done at your own risk. TMRC and its affiliates are not liable for any losses and/or damages in connection with the use of this information. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I love the way Tim explains the way things work. He makes a simple explanation of how the final drive works and helps a person to decide what he needs for his application
Ya know I've Been a mechanic for 29 years and your explanation is the Absolute best I have EVER SEEN! Nice amigo. Thanks.
I've learned alot from this series, keep it coming!
Forgot to mention the wheel is retained in the event of a halfshaft failing
Best thing about a full float is your wheel won't fall off if you break an axle, It just quits spinning under power.
Your wheel won't fall off with the 9" he showed either. You lose wheels with C - clip axles because the bearing is pressed into the axle tube and the c - clip is the only thing holding the axle shaft and flange in.
Yep. Pretty much exactly what grease monkey said. Dana 35 is a good example of a shitty c-clip style axle. Stay away from C-clip axles!
thank you for taking the time to explain the various topics in your video series
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Love these videos! I've been watching all the door slammer vids and learning a lot. Keep up the great content.
C.A.R. Chicago Area Racing
i looked up floater videos here on youtube, wasn't really expecting this
Excellent explanation! Very didactive and easy to understand.
Thats good stuff, back in the day some racers would use a 3/4 ton floater diff from a truck in there drag cars. whats old is new again. a engine is just a engine and a trans is just a trans but the diff is where the rubber meets the road. to me it is the most important part of the car. thanks Tim
love these videos you explain the information very well man thank you keep it up good work
that floater is absolutely beautiful. I would have zero need for anything like that but if I had an extra $15k to spend I would sport one of those around so proudly. I cant wait for the day I need to run a big tire 4 link car. hope it comes quick
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the differences
Nice, Clean And Clear Explanation 👏👌👍
Thanks for explaining!
I designed a robot loaded axle tube gage, when I worked for "VGage". I never got to see an assembly, but per your description it was for a "floating" axle style.
It could be set up to check both: "SRW" & "DRW".
It checked the diameters for bearings & surface that mounts the brake caliper.
See CZcams "vgage axle tube automatic gage" if you are interested.
Really informative, made nice & clear, great talk.
thanks for the great quality videos and info .
Live axle has a bearing that contacts the shaft and housing, floating axle has no contact with a bearing it bolts to the hub via the axle’s flange, the hub houses the bearing and races that are seated onto the outside of the tube housing (hollow spindle) that the allows the floating axle to rotate with no contact, the hub also contains grease or oil seals to contain the bearings lubricant. 2 bearings in place at the wheel hub larger in size increasing the mechanical advantage and strength via size, placement, and additional bearing per wheel.
Thanks for explaining I’ve always been confused and now I know a tad bit more.
Thank you for sharing your great knowledge. Learning alot
1.1K+👍's up thanks for taking the time for us all
Nice And Clean Explanation 👌👍
Thanks Tim I really enjoy your videos👍👍👍👍👍👍🏁🏁
Thanks i needed that great information great video
Thx Tim great little explanation , give us more pls
Very informative great explanation
Great info! Thank you!
Awesome video great info.
Awesome video, thank you.
Great video! Thank you!
Great info!
great info, thank you
Thanks Tim 🙏
Great video
Wow i learned what semi and full floating is now. :D I never understood in class.
the instant you held up that standard axle, working on floaters before. I could tell the need for it in extreme high hp cars. Take all the weight, and torque applied to it and it all rests on the axle itself in a conventional or run a floater and its all supported by the hub. Leaves the axle to apply power only and not hold any weight. I have to say though that those 40 spline pro axles have got me a little emotional. They would be a huge expense but also a 1 and done for 99.9% of us racing cars at 1000 not 14000 hp lol
Nice video
What keeps the axle from coming out of the drive flange
Great series of videos love the content
Thank you for sharing the information
The little ring on the flange-side of the shaft. Notice how he slips the drive flange on from the opposite end of the axle shaft, he does this because the steel ring at the outside end of the shaft is what is retaining it. Really simple, clean, and effective.
Worth mentioning when he says high horsepower he means planet moving power, the "weak" flanged axles are actually pretty beastly already lol
In this day and age of incredible technology, 1500+ is where you *start* getting into high horsepower. 1000HP is old news now. Crazy.
thank you for teaching those of us like ME that didnt know.
Yes the floater is stronger and safer but that alone does not make it better for all applications. Two parachutes are safer but overkill on a 10 second car. I want guess at a horsepower cutoff for flanged axles but it is safe to say only a small percentage of race cars need them. On the negative side you will see an increase in rotating mass, not a problem when you have more horsepower than traction but on your the average 600 to 1000 horsepower car it could cost you some et. If you really want to see strong alxes,look at the axle in the Strange floater rearend top fuel use, the 40 spline alxe would fit in the gun drilled hole of them. Love Tim's videos I always learn something. It's true the more you learn, the more you learn how little you know.
Thank you. Very concise and clear
ok , thanks for the info, I did not know ...now I do ...
With the semi floating, flanged axle the differential carrier bearings support some of the load of the vehicle, by way of the inner spline at the differential or spool, through the axle its self. The single bearing at the wheel flange supports the bulk of the load due to it's closer proximity to the load center. Consequently the flanged axle has two loads, bending and torsional. This is what makes them a weaker choice than a full floating axle which only experiences torsional loads.
you sell blue prints to a floater rear end. I got blue prints from when I went o wyotech on a 9" Ford rear end are they basically the same just shorter and axle is center lined I know when we built mine we off set the faceplate 1inch. I'm in the process of building a drag car wanting to push 1000hp but change later to more (not sure yet) I'd love to tour your work is that possible?
Great explenation! I guess my axles is a mix between the two. The axle has a flange on, bolted to a hub. Semifloater?
Semi floater.
How is the hub retained on the spindle ?
Wow thanks
Tim is pretty awesome..I have a Vanishing Point P/M w/a Full Floater So I knew Alot about them But Tim explained alot of things I didt realize happened..Like allow the Wieght being on the axle flange & other things I never realized..I 1st saw Tim do a video last week about the Pro Mod starter kit which was funny to me..I have more of a "You have to drive it car w/alot of Timing Retards" compared to easy to drive P/Ms of today..Keep making videos & Ill keep watching, Thanks Tim🎸🐾
Hypothetically if I wanted to run greater than 100% anti squat on a big tired front wheel drive drag car, would the easiest way be to use a floating rear axle with a 4 link and just have no internals or axles?
I know this is an older video... but.... Which is stronger rolled splines or cut splines... In the off roading that I do, rolled is stronger for "slow torque: wind up... but was explained to me, that harsh snap pulls at a drag strip type launches, machined is better, as it allows for a longer/wider flex before breakage I think is called "yield strength"?... Unknown to me, if one costs more to manufacture then the other, if ref to dictating the which one is more costly.... I have broken both types while off roading... both in modest situations, as I am not heavy on the throttle, due to not wanting to break stuff and then ruin my day of getting of the trail and then having to fix stuff... so, as I understand it, yes, the rolled splines are stronger, but, shafts of the same size, one is much harder, and does not flex/twist, and will simply snap, where as the machined splines do not have rolled in grain metal structure, and does offer a little bit more flex/twisting... or to say is more forgiving but doesn't like the hard shock type action, but can handle slow non-shock torsional stresses better.. Please feel free to correct me as it will not offend me at all, and anybody can answer this, either based on the metallurgy or based on actual real life experiences... Thank you, Dru
is the floater same as whats called rack and pinion or are they different ???
One big safety factor to full float rear is a wheel that doesn’t have an axel joined to it when it separates from vehicle in a spectator sport. 😐
Why don't they have shows like this on discovery or discov turbo. Where you can learn something but you have shows where there's a bunch of guys messing around
StrayaMate because it's not entertaining to the masses. They want entertainment. Look at current car shows. They're just the same repetitive shit over and over. I stopped watching powerblock TV years ago when I noticed that they basically did the same shit, over and over and over.
you see his videos, where they go when they need a race car built lol this guy is top notch to say the least isn't he. I love that he is so good he can give instructional videos and full builds. Doesn't matter when you are this good people still come to you when they need to spend $500,000 on a real pro pro-mod lol
Also worth saying that with a floater, a broken axle cant result in a wheel coming off. Since the wheel is attached to the hub and not the axle shaft, a broken shaft may spin around in the housing and fuck everything up in side, the wheel stays on and you still hopefully have control of the rail.
Wonder how much that setup cost? I've only dealt with Ford 8.8 and 9 in rear ends I can only imagine$$$
Bearing support comes from the axle tube simple
in your video you keep saying high horse power what do you consider high? I'm interested because I have a small tire car around 2000hp with M/T drag radials (et street aired down to 16psi) but I drive it on the street alot would a flouting rear end work good on the street?
Floater would be no different than a semi floater (standard rearend) on the street. Im building a 10.5" tire car right now with a Strange full floater, I prefer full floaters because you will never lose a wheel due to an axle failure.
Bob Faestel Don't say never. I've seen people lose wheels on full floaters. Last time was on a dragster. Not sure how it managed to take the wheel off too, but it did....and the driver watched as it rolled past him to the end of the track lol. I tried everything I could to determine what happened but even pausing and slow motion didn't help.
@@blazer6248 most times you see a floater rearend loose a wheel it is a result of the wheel studs failing and that is usuallya result of improper torquing . Anything is possible but you rarely see a hub or housing failure.
Dear Lord, thank you for directing me to this channel!
awesome explanation just saying
oh, another question... how are axles shafts rated... all the sales pitches of my off road axles, just simply say, "2x, 3x, 4x stronger the stock" or, "axle shaft can handle 500HP or 1100HP" ...lol.... If I had a torque wrench big enough, to actually twist one, to the point of breakage, that would be interesting info... I watched some videos that show machines that load test this stuff, and U-Joints, drive shaft, to the failure point, but the only numbers mentioned were for the particular drive shaft that was carbon fiber and a completely off the wall strange application, and still didn't give numbers for a standards of measurement, like D.O.T. or W.L.L., heck, even OSHA number would be a point me in a direction, other then, the statement of being 3x stronger then stock... well of course it is, an aftermarket upgraded 40 spline DANA 44 & 60 axle shaft will be stronger..... I wonder about the MIL SPEC axle shafts, like in the HEMTT, can one axle shaft on one side, if all others were out, pull the trucks own weight up a 35 degree slope, or is this required task, of 35 degrees mean that no more then 3 to 4 of the 8 axle shafts can be out, before there is too much load torsionally on said remaining shaft?.. don't answer that, and am just saying for the example ... Sway bar tech, is wonderful, all sorts of info on those shafts... but not much on axle shafts, maybe it is safe to assume, trade craft manufacturing protections? or do not want to give factual numbers, for liability factors? is there a shelf life on axle shafts, more in the idea, of how many launches can a pair of axle shafts take? Yes, I know that is extremely abstract, as there is a million different situations, and none being the same.. Is there ways to check to see/measure the axle shafts to prevent breakage, inturn further damage to other parts of the rig, no matter drag strip or off road... ? again, Thank you, I really enjoy your channel, i have learned so much over the years, Dru
Not "taking all that stress" full floating PREVENTS stress by freeing up the outer axial coupling from lateral loads.
I’m struggling to see a reason someone would dislike this video. I guess some people are just assholes.
Top video but you can still have a full floater that is 1 piece with a flange and non load bearing.
40 spline. damn. 300m 40 spline. holy shit. 2000 hp ready, all day.
lol... alot more than that
I got cha but if you had the pieces laid out, it would have been much easier to understand.
So basically it's like a 3/4 to 1 ton truck axle.
skirkland1980 exactly, except they usually have the axleshaft and hub drive flange as one piece. all the way up to class 8 trucks.
It's just like tractor truck axle
Huge ass shafts. Not as big as a class 8 truck but bigger than an F450
He doesn't mention WHY it is mandatory / safer.... It's because in a semi-float axle if you break the axle shaft the wheel can come off. With a full float it can't.
Unless your doing 1500 plus horsepower,then a flange would be fine if it's made of high quality steel.
You sure can't learn this by looking at small photos on parts Catalogs.. I own and work on class 8 trucks simple they have a spindle with inner and outer tapered wheel bearings..
So I simply assumed a Full floater was anything that didn't need a C clip to hold the axle in place..
This was a nice Video for Drag racers but did not addfress the needs for anyone going around corners hard who have side load issues..
The term for axles that aren't full floating and that aren't C-clip is "semi-floating axle", it's more commonly heard in the off-road world, I rarely hear it in the 'car' world, but it's an axle industry standard term. So the 3 typical axle types are...
- C-clip: retained by C-clips inside the diff of course.
- Semi-floating: a 1-piece flanged axle shafts just like C-clip axles, but are retained by a bearing retainer flange on the outside of the axle housing instead of a C-clip in the diff. Notice the bearing near the flange on the flanged axle shaft in the video, that's a press fit, and the bearing retainer sandwiches between the retainer and the axle housing end - so that bearing sees all the side-load forces(if that sounds a little scary, remember that C-clips are supporting the side loads in a C-clip axle {SHUDDER}).
- And, full floating - which you're obviously pretty familiar with, the axle shaft is fully floating, meaning it doesn't support any weight, and is retained at each end.
Also, if you're familiar with the conventional 9" Ford, then that's exactly what a semi-floating axle is, since they retain the axle shaft by the outside wheel bearing which is a press fit on the axle shaft. So, when someone puts 9" ends on a Ford 8.8" axle to 'C-clip eliminate it', you're turning it into a semi-floating axle by retaining the shaft at the outside end with a bearing retainer instead of the inside end with a C-clip.
As far as side loads, it honestly doesn't matter, C-clips are the weakest in this regard too but it's a non-issue, they never really break from side loading. You're more likely to break a C-clip axle shaft by aggressively crossing corner rumble strips under throttle with sticky tires.
Semi-floating axles are fine with side loads, one can argue that the axle shaft bearing is being loaded in a way it isn't designed for; but, again, you just don't see side load-related failures in road racing use.
Full floaters are 'the best' in side load as well, since all of the side load is fully supported by the spindle, not the axle shaft.
load bearing and non load bearing, simple
"yer SPINDLE IS A BANJO FLANGE AND THE AXLE DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE A REMOVABLE END FLANGE TO BE CONSIDERED A FULL FLOATER" just look at every ford GM and DODGE 3/4 ton ... At least thats what us old farts called it...
Agreed. Full float can have a removeable drive flange or not. I'm not even sure there is an advantage to removable flange or not to be honest.
Better photos would be nice
✝️🇺🇸👍
huh?
BUT why? The stupid super narrow diffs with all of the offset of the wheel out. Mechanically totally inept. A longer axle has more room to flex and windup. The hub being at least central in the rim will not support tyre shake as much. Even better if the wheel is further out. As all modern passenger vehicles are. All trucks have used floaters since they started making trucks. And that does not include toy trucks. Some use floaters and some do not.
A floater is essential for big power cars with marsh mallow tyres that wad up in all directions. Sometimes the right direction!
I have seen those gun drilled axles explode. Both drag cars and Sprintcars. [steel or alloy] Not nice
Errrrr? A floating hub has a nut to retain the hub to the diff tube. Similar too most front hubs.
As for the fancy bullshit standard style axle? Why? Spend a whole heap of money to get something with all the inherent weakness of a factory car axle.
Because there isn't anything "inherently weak" about it until you have 3000+HP - semi-floating drag axles are typically much more affordable, and one like McAmis featured here is *OVERKILL* for anything that isn't a Top Sportsman car. You are gaining literally NOTHING by dropping tons of cash on a full floating axle that belongs in cars with an extra 1000+HP over what you have.
You can get a Fox body Mustang into the 10s with a Brad Anderson blown hemi - but what the hell is the point of using a $50,000 blown billet big block to do what a $6000 small block can do? That ridiculous full floating axle is a BAE hemi of axles; 95% of drag racers will NEVER need either, even if we want them.
Ha. Only $4k
That’s not what my “floaters” look like 👀!!!!