Simple Solutions For The GM HEI Ignition and The Lost Spark!
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- čas přidán 18. 07. 2023
- The GM HEI Ignition has been in use since 1974 and it’s simple to use design make it easy to put into just about anything. These distributors are fairly simple with one a few parts that can cause a problem. This 1981 Chevrolet Monte Carlo has a Crank, No Start situation going on and has lost spark. I first verified that there was no spark by pulling the number 1 plug wire, putting in a spark plug and having a helper crank the engine while grounded out the plug. There was no spark.
I’m pretty sure I know where the problem is, and I still went through a few steps to make sure that it was really where I thought it was. Pulling the ignition coil and testing the primary and secondary windings told me the coil was not the culprit. The primary windings should be between 0-1 ohm and the secondary windings should be between 3000 and 30000 ohms. This coil was fine.
Here's a link to the test leads I use: amzn.to/3pNyThN
If the coil tests good, there are only 2 parts left to really look at. The ignition module and the magnetic pickup. To me, if the coil tests good, the module is the problem. The magnetic pickup is not usually a problem and requires a bit more work to replace. I swap a new ignition module that I got from Autozone fairly certain that this is the issue. Making sure to use the supplied heat paste on the bottom of the module, it went back in like it was supposed to and I reassembled the distributor cap, rotor and coil.
Once it was reassembled, I hit the key and the car fired right up like it was supposed to and ran smooth. The unfortunate truth is that I replaced this module about a year ago and now I’m doing it again. My mechanic friends all tell me that the quality of electrical components in the last few years isn’t very good. If I do this again, It’ll get a MSD module.
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I've been a mechanic since the mid 1970s and the modules in the late 70 threw the early 90s held up well, all the new modules are made in china and are junk.
The module I put in lasted a whole 7 days. I warrantied it out, replaced it to keep the car going, and ordered an MSD module. There's a follow-up video I made and installed the MSD module. I've been seening more failures on electronic components in the last few years, it's getting bad!
@@SnowFamilyRacingthe
Keep up the good work man. I appreciate your concise style.
Glad to help! Thanks for the good words. I've got more coming!
My ignition coil has a date stamp 7/18-1984 and the ignition module is about to fail as I've just began to experience hard cold starts. Cold hard starts will make you believe otherwise so do not be deceived by this condition.
A weak spark can turn over an engine just barely. You'll begin to consider other components to be at fault when the fault is in the distributor. AC Delco Remy is quality so if you can source NOS replacements stock up while there're available. Ignition modules cannot be diagnosed while stranded so its much easier to replace, and we should already know the behavior of our vehicles at this point. The ignition coil rarely fails and in most cases the magnetic pickup is fine.
Carry a couple of these ignition modules in your glove box with some Artic MX-6 compound paste. Heat is what kills the modules, so if you are swapping these often, its the heat. The silicone grease, in my opinion, does not dissipate heat effectively so Artic Silver for me.
No argument, heat is an issue. Based on what I'm hearing from friends that do this professionally and the people sell the parts, new electronics are failing at an alarming rate.
So glad I found your video, I didn’t know that heat paste was needed under the module. I’ve swapped out whole distributors/coil/rotors but never swapped out the module. Appreciation sir
It's one of those things that is easily overlooked. I'm glad to have shown it effectively and that you found value in!
Thank you so much brother! My 82 monte is doing same issue. I got the distributor open right now. Looking through CZcams. Bigg help there!
Glad to help! These seem to be failing at an alarming rate. If you want to bullet proof it, check out my other video where I put the MSD module into it: czcams.com/video/8qavPeuX7Sc/video.html
@@SnowFamilyRacing In my experience, its the heat that kills these modules. Try Artic MX-6 compound paste instead of the silicone grease.
Good video. Straight to the point! Keep posting.
Thanks!
Thanks for mentioning the different ign module pin count.
That's something that stumped me many years ago and it's worth mentioning!
don't forget to check for an ignition rotor that burnt a hole to the dist. shaft
What would the symptoms of this be?
Good vid sure is handy with these videos on auto repairs.
Glad to help! I'm doing the best I can to keep them coming!
Thanks! I'll give it a try!
If you install an MSD box you will no longer need the module. They also sell a high quality module as well. The original GM modules are actually quite good. The replacements that you buy at most auto part stores are a gamble at best if long life is your goal.
Part of the decision was the car was needed to be back up quickly and I couldn't justify stepping up to the MSD box or module, i could swap the module that day as opposed to waiting for parts. My El Camino has the MSD HEI distributor, it ran the high end MSD module for many years without issue. I stepped up to a 6AL in that car, and it's been good there, too.
I had this problem on my 92 gmc typhoon. I have bought about 15 of these modules. Not sure if its the turbo heat or what but about 2 months is its limit. I currently have my truck in the shop for a complete rewire and we are controlling everything with a maxxecu. The distributor will be replaced with the holley dual sync distributor. It will eliminate all the problems i have had with the icm. Also it will go from batch fire injection to SFI injection similar to my grandnational. Its about 15k for the process. I know its not cheap but i don't want to LS swap such a rare vehicle. I know a lot of people who collect older vehicles like them OEM but as i found out with my grandnational this was the 1st time vintage computer controled vehicles have started to come into their value. Say a 68 camaro or a 67 mustang its a lot easier because they don't have a lot of electronics to affect their running conditions. Wiring gets old and starts to fail or melt together due to the low end Wiring used on these vehicles from factory.
I can totally understand that. Especially the early computers were still very low on power. Some of these vehicles seem to destroy modules, and it could be heat or voltage spikes or any combination of stuff.
I run the high end MSD module with a brute thunder accel coil in my small block, 0 misses all the way up to 7000RPM. It's been there almost 10 years.
The MSD module is a really good piece! Since this Monte is still being driven daily, I needed it back up fast. The MSD module is definitely a worthwhile upgrade, and I'm definitely going to get one for this car.
Very good video!
Thanks!
Thank you it was exactly that
Great! Glad to help!
Yeah, that's why I went the other way to replace my bad CCC controlled HEI: a NOS points distributor. Nice and maintainable. Not to mention it's cheap and easy to keep a spare set of points, adjustment/cleaning tools, and condenser in the glove, just in case. The OEM pickups are decades old, and new ones are made like garbage. If you want real reliability, purely electromechanical is the way to go, at the price of having to actually do your regular maintenance.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that approach!
' Sparkrite' module on eBay connects to points & runs coil taking load of points & has a off switch so points only if module box fails.
If I go back to points, can I still use the same plug wires or are they different on the cap end,& can I change the ends. Is there a place to mount the coil on the manifold ? Any other problems?
@Chuncy566 you'll likely be swapping distributors, most of the points type caps have a different terminal, you'd best just do new plug wires, no idea on where you'd put the coil, I don't have your car in front of me. I don't know what you've got or what you're working on, so I can't answer some of that.
@@SnowFamilyRacing Typically correct. Most HEIs use a male terminal on the cap, and a female boot on the wire. most points caps are the opposite, although there are some specialty ones that cross over. Really, its not that hard to chop the ends and crimp new terminals on anyway. If you do this, don't cheap out on the points. Buy Blue Streaks. Parts store points have no way to hold lubrication (gun oil soaked into the pad of the blue streaks works pretty well. oil, not grease for these) and in my experience the rubbing blocks wear away in way too little time - and yes, of course I greased the cam for the parts store junk to no avail.
As a mechanic, I ran to an issue where people were put on the cheap Is spark plug wires I'd ask Them where did you get the Where's from Yip, they bought the cheap ones. And that was their problem with their mission system causing the module to overheat
Thanks for the clear concise video and testing parameters. What do you do when it won't start yesterday but fires up and runs fine today?
Start checking for loose connections and things that aren't the way they're supposed to be.
Thanks for your video. Ive had my engine stall out twice and towed home. I just pulled my distributor and testing the coil now. My coil is junk. Fyi, jegs gm blueprint HEI. Idk who makes these but it didn't last 4 hrs.
I've been hearing of other house brands having trouble, that confirms it. As time moves on, I'm moving to the buy once cry once philosophy. Buy the good one and be done.
Thank you for the video! I have an
‘84 Caprice that’s running a bit rough at idle. I was hoping your video would show the actual procedure of removing the ICM. Did you shoot video of that?
It's got 2 screws and an electrical connector on each end, and it's under the advance mechanism under the rotor. There wasn't a good way to get my hands and camera back there. It's really easy. All of the parts come off easily.
Replaced my cap rotor and coil and still no spark. I will be trying this in the AM.
Thanks!
The module is probably the most common failure point on these and it's easy to check the coil and verify power to the distributor on your way through since you're there. If you have the time and the budget, take a look at the MSD HEI module over a parts store replacement. It can be a good upgrade, otherwise, there's nothing wrong with a good replacement module.
@@SnowFamilyRacing Thanks for that tip. I will get that MSD module.
I found some US NOS stock ignition module hoping it is better than the generic store aftermarket replacements.
Here's a link to the video I made covering the MSD module. I do have a link to the module in the description of that video to make it easier to locate one. Best of luck! czcams.com/video/8qavPeuX7Sc/video.html
Good News, I was able to get the SBC to crank over and run and idle right after changing out the Ignition Module.
However there is still a super weird issue where the car would idle/warm up and then randomly stall.
Would this be a carb issue? The fuel pump is working because I have clear filter in front of the carb and see plenty of fuel.
Once I force the warm up of the car seems to run fine. Not sure if its something with the carb letting in too much air if possible vaccum leak or choke issue.
@@SnowFamilyRacing
Awesome video. I was wondering how to chang it from computer controlled to the 4 pin mechanical style? Please help thanks
You will need to replace the distributor completely as the computer controlled one does not have a mechanical advance. Any basic HEI from Summit or Jegs would work.
I’m having this exact same problem and I’m following this video step by step. So far i have 10 almost 11 volts at the wires to the distributor and my coil seems good based off the numbers in this video. Next thing is to change the ignition module but I’m wondering, do i need to buy an MSD ignition module as I’m using an MSD distributor or can i use an AC Delco from Autozone?
Low voltage at the distributor should be your first place to fix. Get proper voltage and then see what it does. If it's not a factory style module, I'd replace It with the same or newer model part.
I have a 94 gmc Sonoma. I’ve replaced the distributor cap and rotor, the fuel filter, and the coil and the battery, I’m gonna a try this and I hope it will resolve my issue. Car turns over but no crank distributor gets no arc/power
That's likely a hall effect style distributor on the TBI GM engines. I don't have any resources on those.
Just had this happen in my Caddy. Started, ran for a couple of minutes then died. Check the normal stuff: Fuel, air and spark, in that order. No spark. I live in the UK so I've had to fast order a 7 pin hei and it'll arrive any minute how. $55. The caddy died at work, its been there for 3 days and I finished my night shift 2 hours ago. Waiting for Fedex to drop it off so I can go fit it.
@dimebagvision3221 Yeah. Part arrived about 3 hours after making the comment. Fitted it and she fired first time. Three days without my Caddy felt weird and honestly don't want to repeat that scenario. They're also pretty rare over here.
Fantastic video!!
Thank you very much!
Here my issue. Ford 302 5.0 with e303 and carb swap. Idles really rough with the GM HEI. After roughly 1500 rpm is clears up and runs beyond perfect. Revs up quickly too. Could my issue be the part you’re talking about or am I looking at a bad coil? Coil didn’t quiet test to specs but then again, if it didn’t test to specs, why was it running perfect above 1500 rpm? Wouldn’t it run worse? I’m beyond confused
Electronics failure is strange, and sometime they defy logic. HEI coils are pretty cheap. If it might be suspect, I'd be inclined to swap both the coil and module. If funds allow, the MSD module is a really good option. Also, keep an eye on how the idle circuits on the carb are set up. This may be a symptom of overly rich at idle and just off idle. I would start at the ignition since you have reason to believe there could be an issue.
@@SnowFamilyRacing I have thought about just replacing the whole HEI, as ironically enough in my area, it’s cheaper. Carb is a edelbrok 1406 600CFM so I’m thinking it’s fine however I’m more leaning towards spark. Not sure why but I’m trusting my gut in this one. Just got into carbs and hei’s so learning everything I can
I'm going to agree with your gut. Ignition seems likely here. Carbs are easy, I do a lot of tuning with a vacuum gauge. Every change will have an effect on the vacuum reading.
Lancia used an hei module like this one to fore there ignition as well,the difference was the module was mounted to a heat sink on the firewall could this be duplicated for longer module life?
Yes, it really wouldn't be that hard to do. It's basically extending a few wires and running them externally. A question I have, and I may be thinking waaaayyyy too deep. I'm wondering if there could be latency issues from extending the wires. I kinda don't think so because my MSD box has a 4 foot wire from the magnetic pick up and about 20 inches to the coil. I think it's a viable experiment. The variable comes in with the consistency of manufacturing them. I know that not all new parts are created equal.
So, in theory, yes, I believe running this external to a heatsink could work and be effective.
Most Magnetic pickups can be tested with the ohm meter 0 ohm bad something k ohm good
Would a bad ICM cause the car to completely die & lose power when you make a hard turn or slow down at a stop light & intersection or down hill?
Doubtful, unless you have a very loose connection that loses good connection all the time. That sounds like it could be a fueling issue. Remember, it's very hard to diagnose a problem over the internet. Best I can do is generalities.
Is it a work or no work item not an intermittent issue
I have an 85 Chevy pickup with an hei. A while ago, I went to start it and had no spark. I grounded plugs and had nothing. I changed out the cap, rotor and coil and still had nothing. Randomly one day it fired back up and I drove it for a couple days. Then all of a sudden, it died on me and I had the same issue again. I believe that this is the issue, but this is my first vehicle that I have ever worked on. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Intermittent issues are likely caused by loose connections. You need a wiring diagram and start chasing wires to ensure you have good connections everywhere. If the steering column is loose at the tilt mechanism, that can push on the ignition switch funny and cause problems. I've got a video about reading wiring diagrams, that video also has a link to an electrical diagnostic checklist.
I've also got plans for several electrical diagnostic and troubleshooting videos. Stay tuned!
Here's a link to the video I did about reading wiring diagrams. czcams.com/video/QMOdPEC-CnI/video.html
I want to look at that Buick Riviera behind you
There's lots of videos on my channel that I'm working on that beautiful Riviera. It's got an extensive playlist where I rebuild the suspension, make some upgrades and get it going again. There's even videos where my dad and I take it to a local road course for some amateur night fun! Check those out!
My 93 vet has a different ICM. Can you do a similar video showing my car ?
Only way I can do that is if I have one in front of me to do the video with. I don't have anything from that era to show. My understanding is that GM went to a Hall effect style distributor and had some different components.
everytime i install a new ign module it works once then burns out ??? Can you give me any ideas please ?
Without knowing any more about your set up, it sounds like you have either a grounding issue or an issues where the voltage is too high. Best place to start is grab a Volt meter and a wiring diagram, check for continuity to ground on the ground side of the module. You will also need to know what kind of voltage that you have both not running and running.
Well I need a little help the only way my car will start if I take a jumper wire to battery to the pink wire on my distributor all my fuses are good what will it be
First, check out my electrical diagnostic checklist on my website to help you find the issue. Second, I'm betting on ignition switch, but I can't diagnose that over the internet. There's an interrupt in line somewhere and you'll need to spend some time with a wiring diagram and a volt meter to correctly find it.
What if the could picks up nothing when I test the secondary winding
If you tested the coil and it's not between the ranges, then it's probably bad.
Hi so my husband wants me to ask why this keeps going out we know what this part is we have changed it out many time but do not know why it keeps going out also changed out the whole distributor did not change anything sill goes out we order 2 at a time have ordered cheap and expensive no difference please help if you can
There are a few reasons. First, there's a quality problem with where the current off the shelf parts are made. I've had the best luck with Napa for off the shelf electrical parts. Next, you may have a voltage issue like the alternator may be putting out too much voltage. The engine may also have a grounding issue. Check both power and ground. Lastly, I've got another video on my channel about swapping to the MSD ignition module. I've done that on several cars and haven't had to mess with them again. Between all of those things, you should find an answer.
I had the same issue. It's every morning or if it sits over 30 mins I run into no start only crank sometimes I can get it to stary but now its just dead in water on it
But this on my Plymouth fury
My Mopar friends all move away from the Chrysler electronic ignitions.
Same issue with my 77 Buick I need help. It will crank up run great but when it sits for 30 mins no start just cranking
Can the condenser go bad and won’t start
I've not experienced one with a bad condensor, I can't say.
I just tripping out about the thermoquad Chrysler carburetor.
Some people liked them?
That's actually a Street Demon carb made by Demon. It's kinda thermoquad, kinda Edelbrock, kinda weird. It works well enough, and I haven't had to mess with the tune in ages. I set it and forgot it. At the time, the car needed a carb faster than I could piece together a Qjet from my stash. Deep down, I'm a Qjet guy.
Cool 😎 I will look into it.
I'm experiencing it right now with a rebuilt engine. There is no spark on cylinder 1
That is a possibility that the module could be having problems. In the event that a module doesn't help, I might start to wonder about the magnetic pick up. That's a bit more involved and requires the distributor to be removed and the gear taken off the end of the shaft.
Just wanted to remind anyone doing this upgrade about a safety feature of these "big cap" HEI distributors. If you attempt to start the engine with no fuel in the carburetor bowl (no fuel getting to the cylinders), the module will sometimes shut down and the engine will not fire or run. From that point, as long as the key is not turned fully off, the safety will remain turned on, and the distributor will not function. To reset it, turn the ignition key fully OFF (no power to the distributor), wait 8-10 seconds, and then try again, this time, making sure fuel is getting to the cylinders. Even foreign made versions of this distributor have this feature.
This happens because inductors (coils) pull more current when the resistance it sees increases. If there is no fuel in the air around the plug, the resistance seen by the coil increases greatly, which in turn means the coil in the distributor will try to "sink" a much higher current. To prevent overheating and destruction of the ignition coil, as well as damage to the electronics, a type of auto-reset circuit breaker was implemented in the module. Once activated, it will remain "on" as long as there is power to the module, and can be reset as described above.
My guess is that it was too expensive to implement current limiting in the module and this was the solution used. I can't tell you how many guys I know who thought the distributor went bad and got rid of them because they did not know the above.
Please please please, point me in the direction of how you go from the 7 pin to a 4 pin. I have an 87 El Camino that had a 350 put in but they left the “computer” and 7 pin dist in it and it’s giving me hell. Without boring you with all the details I’ve narrowed it down to the dist and coil. I’ve thrown too much money at it and want to just convert it to the 4 pin because I’m stupid and it seems like 4 is easier to understand than 7. I’ve been researching this for a while but can’t find anything helpful other than people philosophizing about what year it is and the ohms this and Volts that.. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
When you swap from a computer controlled car, you need both a non computer controlled carburetor and distributor. The easy way to do that is to go to Rock Auto and pick an older year of the car you have that isn't computer controlled and pick up the parts. For a Small Block Chevy, I'd go to Summit and get a normal HEI distributor. If you need a carb, that can also be acquired there too. The basic ones will do fine. The power wire to the distributor that's in the wiring harness will be just fine to use. Once all the computer controlled stuff is removed from the engine, the harness can be removed, though it does take some work. This is a simple swap. Remove the old and put the new one in, set the timing, and you should be great!
Mine just went bad car stalling not starting
This is probably the most unreliable part in the car. Not hard to replace, but it's never convenient.
Are my eyes deceiving me or is that Mopar thermo quad carb?
It's a little Road Demon Jr.. It wouldn't surprise me if it's similar to a thermoquad. I've not actually worked with an original thermoquad. I'm a Qjet guy, i didn't have one that was right for this engine when we put it together the first time. It's kinda like an Edelbrock, kinda not, and a pain to tune. Took forever to get the tune right. It almost went in the garbage, but it saved itself by doing what I wanted it to do at the last minute and has been pretty trouble-free ever since. Its saving grace is that it hasn't given me any trouble, and if it's not broken, it gets to keep mixing fuel. It does do really nice on the highway cruise. That's a plus.
i just bought one figuting out its bad
Adapt a Ford Dura spark to it. Better yet just buy a Ford. LOL
Ignition module on HEI is not a good design as it is inside the hot distributor as opposed to Ford and Dodge that mounts it away from the heat
Why would I want to downgrade? I realize it's not the most serviceable, but wow!
Can a person mount the ign module outside of the distributor on the firewall or the fender & ground it realy well? Would that work?
@Chuncy566 you could, it's just wires. Will it work better, probably not.