The "Raised Reversed Stem" broke my brain. It might be genius.
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 10. 04. 2023
- I received a box containing the "Raised Reversed" mountain bike stem. Install this on your bike, and you'll surely agree that it looks completely sketchy and unstable. Surprisingly, it's not, and in this video I'll explain why.
I'm continuing to test this stem and will give long-term results at some point, but in my early tests this thing felt good on descents. On climbs, I wasn't quite adjusted to it and I've heard the same from others. The creator of the Raised Reversed Stem completely disagrees, and says you need to get used to it and change your body position to see the benefits. He seems like a genuinely smart and honest guy, and so I don't doubt that he could be right. I just don't see it yet.
I've seen some other concepts like Mondraker's "Forward" geometry, which do have some similarities with the RR stem, but nothing yet that transforms a normal enduro bike into something so confusing.
At $400, the RR is probably the most expensive stem you can buy, but considering a single engineer created this in tiny numbers with what we can only assume is an outsourced CNC service, the price makes perfect sense. Is it worth it? That will take me more time to tell you, but it's worth a discussion.
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Obviously time for Seth to make a DROPPER STEM.
I see the missing link between the dropper for the seat and for the handlebars!
3d printed dropper stem
Yep... this would deffinetly solve the problem when climbing, just as a dropper seat tube does. Only sacrifice is a bit of weight..
Matter in fact, I would love to have something like this on my bike.. here in my area we have huge and steep climbings, for even steeper descends..
Yeah, dust off that 3D printer Seth, that'll go well :D
Actually, there's one...
This is actually really normal geometry to most dirt bikes. The weird geometry is just hidden with a gas tank and plastics which make it look normal.
That's what I thought the first time I saw it.
Iâm also thinking BMX. They donât have a lot of forward extension on the stem and the rise built into be bars can allow for them to be in front of or behind the steer tube.
Some BMX bars laid back a little probably accomplishes the same goal.
This is what I was about to say. Motorcycles do this all the time. Risers for bars are actually often added for taller riders (e.g. TAG bars). They really helped me when I used to race.
I always thought the head stem going forward was mostly about extending the reach for comfort
Came to say this lol I ride dirtbikes and this looks like a totally normal bar riser. I have some pretty tall risers on my WR450f.
Yuuuup. First thought was motorcycle. The more neutral arms gives you way more ability to position and adjust on the bike. My big complaint about a mountain bike is I'm leaning so far forward just to be able to keep decent position, and it feels incredibly unnatural vs my motorcycle where I'm slightly forward on the seat, but legs and arms are bent.
To anyone who has ever ridden a motorcycle, this doesn't look weird at all. Nothing looks weird or unstable here, this is how dirt bikes work. I routinely extend handlebars up toward me with risers.
Cyclists are weird sometimes when it comes to ergonomics and geometries of bicycles.
It's like they despise having comfort and control for "aero" or "stability" for stuff that will never reach past 50mph unless they are on a death mission type downhill.
@@TheInsaiyan Getting into this sport more and more and it's abundantly apparent how easy it is to upsell to this market. It's insane.
I think it's hard to admit that maybe bikes just aren't that complicated and don't need that much development and research for 95% of people. I'm also still just new, maybe the nuances are lost on me.
Right, very common. This seems like such a non discovery, discovery. Likely stems from the lack of cross training in today's era, that was popular during the 90's, before the rift with MTB and OHRV.
@@TheInsaiyan Yea, I think a lot of things are done because of âtraditionâ and if you canât argue with them because you just donât know and the research shows X⊠even though the research when you look at it has been completely misinterpreted. Or it was just research on one very specific dude.
Seems it has taken a few big rocks to the head of mountain bikers to realize Dirt Bikes have been solving these issues for decades. Mullet setups are becoming super popular and now the raised stem.
One of the first upgrades I did on my dirt bike was a raised stem for singletrack riding. Changed the game for me.
Simple fix for climbing: add a hinge and lockout that allows the stem to pivot forward and down into a more "standard" position. There are already designs that do this on triathlon bikes. When you get to the top, just flip it back up, lock it in place.
can't find any
mentioned for triathlon
Mountain biking is moving towards lower gearing and shorter crank lengths (150mm or lower). This stem makes me think the owner rides a short crank with an ultra low gear that they can spin quickly while climbing and they move forward on the saddle to balance the front end which also makes spinning low gears easier.
That would probably be really heavy/not very rigid, and this honestly feels good for climbing because it eliminates a lot of wandering
TRUE STORY: 1986 I left the subsidiary of Shimano, married their secretary, quit my Cat-1 road racing status and started riding mountain bikes. To my surprise I found it extremely difficult to climb on mountain bikes because my hands wanted to be in the road bike gum hood position when climbing. Unfortunately MTB H-Bars do not have such a position(s). So one day I decided to cut some old stems, shimmed them up and bolted them up on the ends of my H-Bars. The next day I want out to ride and discovered I could climb like a Cat-1 road bike pro but on a Mountain Bike...! Little did I know I just invented "BarEnds" and these weird looking handles were about to flip the entire MTB market on its head, and make me a rich man.
So I called up my friend who we used to work together at the Japan group/Shimano and asked him to come on over to see my new invention, so maybe we can start our own business together with the $3,000 dollars his mother offered us if we started our own business together. For some time I've been telling him I wanted to start a bike biz and name it onZa...
Anyways, he shows up and he sees these hideous metal rods sticking out at the end of the H-bars and says "DAN! No one is going to buy and put on those stupid ugly looking things on their mountain bikes. Sorry Dan, I'm not interested I'm going to keep my new Import job I just got." We then had a few beers and called it a day. About a month later, he calls me to tell me he is not happy at his new job, and wants to know if I made any improvements on my ugly invention? I said yes, come on down we'll pound a few beers and I tell you how much they've improved my mountain bike riding.
Just before he went home he said "OK I'll ask my Mom for the $3,000 dollars and go 50/50 business partners and we'll use that name onZa.
And just like that stem you are testing is exactly what we went through trying to sell BarEnds out of our car visiting bike shops all up and down California. The first bar-ends were hand made by a Porsche exhaust pipe maker. After a year of trying we only did $30K in sales... I was about to throw in the towel when the president of GT bicycles called us in our tiny kitchen office. Richard Long invited us to lunch and wanted to talk to us about our onZa bar-ends. When we met the next day Richard told us how his racing team has been using our bar-ends with great success racking up Cross-country wins. He then shocked us when he said he wanted to spec our onZa bar-ends OEM on two new models for the new year.
The rest is onZa history.
So yes, I think this ugly duckling of a stem is going to change the MTB industry. Great Job on Your Story, and I think you should partner up with this person and make your suggested improvement(s)!
Sincerely, Dan Sotelo aka Mr onZa
Interesting story, thanks for sharing and congratulations on your success
How cool that you took the time to share this story, and clearly are still passionate about all this. Thanks!
Bullshit
Danny Sotelo! Thank you for ALL the onZa goodness and innovation all those years ago and thank you, too, for my REDONKULOUSLY gorgeous, nickel-coated Box brake levers!!! What an awesome story!!! And yes, Bronson is a forward-thinker and a genius!!! I see him doing incredible things in the years to come!
I had onza bar ends and the chill pills đđ»
I love the fact that you can really hear how annoyed and confused Seth was that he liked how it felt as he rode it đđ
For those who think that 400$ price is too high. As a tall person (1.93m) I've always used XL frames. Because of long legs my saddle was absurdly high and thus the position was "long". Recently it caused pain in wrists and numbness in fingers - a lot of weight on my hands. When I first saw RR-stem, I was sure that this product is exactly what I need. I've ordered it as soon as possible. Today Iâm after 3 days of muddy ascending and descending with RR Stem. What can I say? It is way better than I thought it could be. From the beginning riding position is absolutely natural. Cornering and stability is insane. Descending as told many times - exceptional. Even ascending is way better than with typical stem. No more pain, high comfort and great stability. And going back to the beginning - we pay hard cash for lighter parts, suspension tuning and many more things. I really fell that Bronson spend a lot of time designing and testing this stem. The change in the way that I am riding my bike is unbelievable. To sum up, yes this stem is a breakthrough. If you have opportunity just try it.
also itws gotta be pricey because it's gotta be safe. if your cheap derailer knocks off or plastic pedals brake, you could kinda save yourself it certain situations...if your handlebar piece snaps....no matter what you're doing you're gonna have a bad time. $400 seems reasonable.
Thank you for your input. I'm 6'7, many same issues as you while riding. Gunna have to really think about this now.
Sorry, that doesn't change the fact that $400 for a piece of anodized aluminum like that is robbery.
@@frtard đ€Ą
Why not just riser bars or a stem extension?
I actually got a similar effect when I rode a true downhill bike for the first time. Super tall fork, kinda shorter reach, felt really nice. Then I went back to an enduro bike on the same descents, and felt so sketchy with the slammed handlebars
slammed for aero on those thin tyres for things like that french thing.
going downhill, the fact you're not hunched forward brings your centre of gravity away from the front wheel, but it'll be back there if you try to get the 'arm are part suspension' thing with slammed bars.
As someone who has raised my stem/handlebar for years (although not to this extreme), I never understood why people liked lowered handlebars. They're uncomfortable to ride on anything. If I wanted to lean forward while riding, I'd be riding a road bike. Thanks for finally putting an explanation to what was just a gut feel.
It's a faster posture for XC type of riding that crippled into anything else. And that came from road bikes, so you got it close
The forward leaning position on road bikes are for aero, in most other bike category's it also matters but when you're riding on stuff that isn't smooth tarmac you have to compromise some aero for control.
In downhill and trail you'd gain a lot from better aero in theory but you loose too much because you can't control the bike as well in those positions. Seems going in the opposite direction just sacrificing all aero for even more control might be beneficial.
On road you also compromise for control and comfort, its just not as bad control wise outside of crazy superman/supertuck positions, those are banned because they're afraid they sacrifice too much control so they'd cause crashes.
On Road bikes you also have less headtube angle, and narrow bars, so the long stem is giving you back a lot of the stability. I've tried short stem on mine but it gets too nervous, so went back to 70mm (witch is also short on a road bike) and its a better compromise.
Because not everything is downhill racing. Fortunately there is a bike for literally everything these days!
with older DH bike geometry, being able to keep more weight over the front wheel really helped with traction while turning under certain conditions. the bars on my modern enduro rig are higher relative to the pedals than on my old DH bikes, but I still feel the need to get weight over the front when I'm trying to get the most speed out of my turns. knowing the mechanics of this, it's understandable why people might be stuck to the whole "keep the front end low" mentality. If you could effectively weight the frontend with this thing, then I don't see why it wouldn't just as well as any other stem, aside from whatever purported benefits this has.
Leaning foward actually is very important. Just look worldcup DH racing in slow motion and watch how they roll over obstacles...
I had the pleasure of meeting Bronson when he was still developing this heâs always been so sure of his product. So rad seeing you showcase his product đđ»
Seeing his stems gives me a little giggle at every SoCal enduro race. As well as the âask me about my stemâ shirt
I literally rode adjustable steams on my hybrid and I ALWAYS cranked it as vertical as possible. For me it was mostly comfort...but its controllable.
Anytime Iâve seen interviews with Bronson he seems like the most chill dude. Very down to earth, obviously very smart, and able to prove his design by winning races.
Iâm 100% a fan.
When people prove their designs by winning bike races, the technology gets banned
After neck injury I had to raise my stem with a 3'' extension. My bike looks weird but I can ride in comfort, and I never felt a compromise on performance (intermediate rider). Good to see that probably performance riders will gradually implement raised stem geometry, my bike will have nice company! :) Nice way to share how it takes time for people to accept change like with dropper post.
tez mam przedĆuzonÄ rure sterowÄ - przedĆuzka SATORI
I raised my bar for the same reason. (neck injury) Didn't go three inches, but it really made a difference. I would consider this if a lower version was available. (maybe 1/2 the height) I already use the shortest stem I could find and 40 mil riser bars to be able to look out far enough in riding position.
It almost looks like they are trying to take dirt bike steering geometry and put it in mountain bike geometry with that raise stem. Because the way you are describing your mountain bike handling now is pretty similar to a dirt bike. I really want to try one of these stems
This is exactly what I was thinking and the faster you go the more beneficial this position could possibly be?
Instead of getting the rise from a stem like this, you could also try to find sufficiently wide dirt jump bars. Maybe those are easier to find.
@@sebastianjost super high rise(~80 mm)bars should do the trick
Damn right. I want to try, not buy it. Lol.
This is a cool idea, but it would only be relevant for some downhill trails. A raised stem is useless on an XC or even trail bike if you enjoy doing steep climbs. It is already hard enough keeping the front end down. Moreover, having your arms bent more with a raised stem reduces biomechanical advantages (the further into a pushup you get, the harder it becomes), which would greatly fatigue riders on long, rough descents. It is most useful on Enduro motorbikes (where it has been the norm for years), because it increases downhill stability, but doesn't induce too much fatigue (as the bike itself is heavier than the rider, and absorbs most of the load).
It always brings me so much joy how excited Seth gets about something being potentially sketchy. Itâs like, if you describe to him a situation that could cause him bodily harm, heâs trying to figure out how to ramp it up one more step. This resonates with me.
Каг ĐŽŃŃĐ°ĐșĐ°?
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Sketchiness runs in the blood, especially since seth used to do bmx.
You should watch Sam Pilgrim if you aren't already. That dude loves sketchy stuff.
@@fryloc359 heâs t he physical incarnation of the word sketchy
The stem just makes you sit up and not be pitched forward. That is especially helpful on descents and corners, your center of gravity is totally changed, further back which is more stable. Having the elbows bent is always key. My coach in the 1980's would whip us on our forearms with his riding crop as he passed in his car if our elbows were not bent. That makes you more agile on the bike no matter what. A dropper stem would be key. Climbing even non-tech stuff, if steep enough is always hard to keep the front wheel down. Great vid. I liked the discussion of trail. Many people have no idea about that. Thank You for making us think. đđŒđČđŻâ€
Cheers to stern, smart coaches.
Great vid !! Thank you for taking the time to make & upload it. This is super cool. I am always fascinated with the mountain bike world. I was an avid bicyclist my whole youth & young adult in the 90's , got a little messed up in a bike accident kinda toasted the bike (1995 GT hardtail with a ROCK SHOCK. )hung it all up.. Bikes have came so far in 30 years ! I would really dig going for a ride on a bike of today.
They made a change like this on dirtbikes over the last 20 years. They moved to higher bars because overall they're better for handling fast corners, whoops, and jumps. They have the advantage of not needing to change body position as much when climbing because you're not pedaling, so you can keep your body in a better position especially with wider foot pegs they've added. But with mountain biking and pedaling up hills, maybe you're onto something with a dropper stem đ€
Exactly.
Dirt bike geo hasn't really changed since early 90s
@@Biggestshredder Yeah. Current front ends fit to bikes from the early 90s and late 80s quite easily. My 2003 CR has Solva suspension that's only a couple of years old and the geometry isn't much different. Bar position is just personal preference as the ergos are the same as my 1980 YZ465.
was waiting to see this comment... thank you
I was about to comment the same thing.
Loving the raw riding footage at the end, just gives your real time thoughts and reactions
rare berm peak moment for raw riding
1) Thanks for the demonstration of how to see trail- I've read a dozen descriptions on it but having you whip out a yardstick finally made it all gel, now I'm going to spend a few hours checking my contraption bikes. 2) The price isn't unreal in cycling at all, you could spend $400 on stems or $1000 on pulley wheels all day if you really wanted. 3) The ride video at the end was great!
I changed my hardtailâs stem and bars to a bmx style, around 4-5 inch rise, mainly for comfort, and when I took the first corners I was stunned. So sharp, so stable. I probably lost a bit of control low speed but it feels nice. For a cruiser, city bike, Iâd go even taller.
One of my biggest gripes about MTBs is the mounting of the handle bars. As soon as bought my 29er I started to look how I could modify it. I have never understood the (very) uncomfortable riding position.
@@zerobeat2020 I put a short stem and even a height extender even on my road bike because I have an old man back already and canât be bothered with looking cool instead of feeling like I can actually ride for a while.
I did the riser handlebar fing too with my old Cannondale V900 . Handles fully sick Bro! Scored some Bear đ» Traps đȘ€ for her yesterday too. â€ïžđšâšđđŠđș
You should start timing all your different test runs down that trail both so we can see and so you can see the difference with parts like this and the more mundane and normal ones aswell
I need to be better about timing stuff!
@@BermPeakExpress you can use any old videos to be a pre existing data base
â@@BermPeakExpress This would actually make for a VERY interesting video series: design specific tracks to test different things (a track with drops, one with jumps, one with berms etc etc) and run (some of) those several times when testing a new product. That way you'd have some more reliable data that could be really useful for us!
Would probably be a lot of work (but, hey, more videos!), but the benefits to the entire community could be pretty massive. You could even build it at Berm Park so anyone could test their setups on the same tracks!
Hi Seth. Been watching your channel for awhile, since before you moved to your new place and started building your trails. Anyways way back then I had came across a video on how to get maximum steering/handling . Basically having your hand in line with the center of your steering tube/fork tube would give you maximum control. going the same distance forward or behind that point would have the same effect. I had a couple of bikes, older MTBs with long stems straight flat bars, and cruiser bikes with big swept back bars. Between the the bikes the distance from center of the steer tube, and my hand where very close to the same distance to and fro, and to my surprise the handling was pretty much the same. Then with a bike with a short stem and long bars with a sweep I was able to get the bars grip, and my hand placement inline with the steer tube. and yes what a huge difference it did make. In the video i was watching, it was geared towards downhill racing, and how and why pro's run short stems and wide bars. This is exactly the approach I took with my fatbike, and the result was fantastic!! So when I seen this video of yours I thought, well of course that stem works, why wouldnt it? Although I was/and still am a bit tripped out on the height of the stem. I do understand the bit about allowing your arms to be "soft" and not stretched and locked, but that stem is like a sky scraper!! But I guess if you look at BMX race bikes your hands are pretty much sky high ,and thats how its been since the dawn of time. Anyways I wish I could find that old video
I like the idea of this. Snowmobiles have risers similar to this and some are even adjustable in height and front to back. Makes for more comfortable stand up riding and gives you a little more leverage to throw the machine around. Would be awesome to see Seth on a sled. Only problem is he might get hooked!
..Or Ken Block'ed
that and motocross bikes it actually makes a lot of sense
Sled risers have been getting shorter over the past few years
@@punkybeerconsumer the risers them self have been getting shorter but the geometry of the machines are higher requiring less and less riser Hight
@@xTOP_L3V3Lx The RR (Raised Reversed) stems position is very similar to a dirt bike both in stack and reach feet to hands and having your hands behind the steering axis. Itâs interesting to me how similar they are considering the RR stem was not inspired by or designed to emulate the position of a dirt bike. I donât even ride dirt bikes. The RR stem was developed over almost 3 years testing anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem you now see, and anything from 70mm forward to -50mm Reversed always benchmarking against the traditional 50mm - 35mm stem. The RR stem that you see here is the culmination of all that testing to find the best Enduro mtb stem geometry.
this is one of those things with bikes that shows how silly we are as consumers. Technically, if you wanted the raddest descender possible you'd ride a bike with moto geometry and handling, just scaled to bicycle weights. Dirt bikers have put in a shit tom of work making two wheels as fast and stable as possible, and mtb'rs are over here trying to reinvent the wheel or stretching and adapting road bike theory to mtb just to arrive back to where motos have been for decades.
Yeah, it shows bike W*ers are too rude to even branch out to MX. How can a guy with nearly 1 million subs not have ever looked at a fork leg for radial brake mounts, guess its unlucky for you
@@DJIInLondon weight.
Exactly!
Came here to say this
Came only for this comment. I actually thought about Ricky Carmichels 2004 Honda.
I gotta say it, I never, EVER, have been mountain biking.. always thought it was cool though. I don't know what it is about your videos, they keep me so drawn to the point where I feel like I have been riding for YEARS and now I need to know what it feels like to ride with this stem lmao Keep up the kick-ass content!
Oh man.. ya gotta get on cl and find yourself a bike man! If anything.. just go to the local stadium stairs haha.
You gotta try sometime. Just rent a bike and go ride your best local trails or go to a downhill park. You'll find it's so much better than even Seth's videos can portray.
Bro get off CZcams and go ride a bike
Buy a bike man đ
Time to get yourself a MTB man!
You guys should try riser bars. They get you plenty of rise (a few inches) but without reducing reach, and -- this is important -- you're less likely to get popped in the mouth because the mouth-buster (ie stem) is lower than your hands.
Riser bars are really the only option because, aside from the product featured here, there are no stems available with any significant rise that are made for the newer 35mm bars.
@@ebenf6768 True. My main point is that one amazing thing about riser bars is that the stem is still low, so you can raise your hand position without having a tall stem that can hit you in the face on a big compression or crash. Most people who are interested in raising their bars are doing some downhill, and those people would be more likely to pop themselves in the chin area.
I've been running an extra 3 inches of stem height with spacers and the shortest stem possible for 4 years. This stem seems like exactly what I've been hoping for!
Mondraker used to do a zero reach stem when they introduced their forward geometry about 10+ years ago. It didn't quite look so goofy, but also didn't catch on.... Didn't have the same rose but would be interesting to do back to back testing.
I was thinking the same thing. The Mondraker wasn't as tall but it did sit pretty high on top of the steerer. I was a good idea but didn't catch on.
Exactly. Not quite as high but the same thinking
Yup. Put some 2â riser bars on in it and itâs pretty much the same thing
I rode my mondraker today. Funny thing is I just randomly brought the stem height up today about 5 mm (one spacer) to see how that felt on my ride vs the other way around, and to my surprise, even descending it did not improve the ride quality over the lower position. It actually felt worse all around
Do you remember Eric Carter on rotec downhill bikes back in the day?
Also,azonic used to make a zero reach stem around the 2000 era
This was fascinating, as a non-biker and an engineer looking to get into the hobby. Not having much experience with mountain biking but a lot of experience with mechanics in motion, it doesn't surprise me that this worked. What does surprise me is why it seems so surprising to mountain bikers that this would work - probably just my lack of experience but it would make sense cornering would be better as you would have more fine-tuned control over your steering inputs even if its on a subconscious level.
Common word in the motorcycle world is that you should always have a bend in your elbows to enhance control. This riser achieves exactly that.
I'm an engineer as well and I was surprised. My excuse is that I just get out and ride. I learn my bike and accept it's limitations. If I had more time, I'd be tweaking it every which way. I will definitely purchase the dropper stem when bro produces it. : ) The one quibble I'd have with this superb and funny video is that he said that all innovations have downsides. The dropper post for the seat has none that I can see. And be careful. You may become addicted as I have. And if you're over 50, the Specialized Turbo Levo E-bike is outstanding. Having a motor means I ride much more, and fear no hill. Please post videos of the innovations I know you'll invent.
As Storm points out; in the motorcycle world, elbows up and with a bend is how you maintain best control.
(go take a Danny Walker - American Super Camp class and they smack your celbows with a broomstick to remind you when you start to get lazy again đ)
I think people will find the likelihood of the dead sailor will disappear with handlebars like these.
Yeah exactly, the moment of inertia is about the center of gravity, not about each wheel. Mountain bikers shift their body weight backwards so a more backwards handlebar is gonna reduce the affect of the moment created by your arms. Basically allowing for more travel of the front wheel. This would be an issue for a road bike where your weight is more shifted towards the center, but since you're on a mountain bike, thats counteracted by the overall shift in the cg in the x axis.
I don't ride trails or off road , but I want a taller version of that stem as a Commuter bike stem , I'm older and my back does not like being bent forward , and everything you said makes perfect sense to me from when I was younger and used to ride off-road , there's nothing unstable about that stem
Old 1980's 10-speeds had that down sweeping "U" on each handle bar for a reason. On flat or declines, I used to rest my hands on the top of the bars where they are close to the stem, so my body could remain more upright. You are correct that a longer stem assists in control on the decline, but on an incline, in order for you to have your arms in a position that remains strong, you need to lean forward and your hands have to be in a lower position. On an incline, the front tire naturally is going to be closer to your chest. Placing your hands on the lower sections of "U" allowed you to move your body angle forward, so your body was close to the same position as it was on a flat or decline. As the bike angle changes, you naturally want to keep your body angle the same, so as to maintain balance, power and control, and minimize muscle strain and fatigue. The extended stem is a tradeoff. For declines, it is advantageous. For inclines, it is not. The engineering trick is to redesign the handlebars to either be repositionable on the fly, of better yet offer two different hand position heights, if you want a bike that can handle both inclines and declines with close to equal efficiency.
This is what Iâve been wanting since I started riding MTB. As a motocross/enduro dirt bike racer, I feel like this would put my body in a more comfortable riding position and seems like it would give me better feel and front end stability. Not sure life long cyclist would say the same. For me, this seems like what I have been searching for.
I've been buying short stems and replacing what came with my bikes for 20 years, and it is absolutely more comfortable and feels more controlled. The "stability" that some like from long stems feels like mid-century American car steering slop to me. You definitely need to be aware of your leading distance/angle when considering a switch, including with your suspension compressed, though!
It is obvious really.. it really does not matter what engineering invention you find, it usually has been done before, or the basics were done back in the 1800's so some 130-200 years ago. Obviously not MTB's but other everyday machines and devices, the scale of most is what has changed simply as there was not the choice of building materials and manufacturing techniques.. Rgds
Its literally the same feeling i had when i saw descent bikes when being a Child. This thing goes good for sure. No way back
Haha I have Amoeba adjustable stem and it's all the way up, mimicking this stem, I can't even remember how many heated discussions I had with some "pro" riders. And this idea I got from my Yamaha Xt 600......
MTBâs have been slowly working from road bikes to offroad bikes. When they shouldâve started at dirtbikes and just taken the engine out of the equation. Almost every ânewâ mtb feature is a dirtbike feature from 25 years ago.
I remember watching a Remy Metailler vid where he said that most intermediate/advanced riders need to stand up more on their bikes when descending (stand taller, I think he said); it seems like this stem forces that approach. Very interesting.
Ive been using a raised stem on locked suspension mountain bike for like 3-4 years, but for normal cardio riding so the back and arms hurt less and im upright more, time/air resistance/speed is relevant since its for training/recreation. The thing is that the stem really needs to be super strong for down hill so it wont bend and flex. Like you notice the center of mass moves back a little bit, so its easier on the front.
I'm in my mid 60's.. my riding is a bit less adventurous, a bit slower than it used to be, and I am on an electric bike.
I spend more time sitting on the saddle as my legs can't hold up to standing on the pedals for so long..
This changed my body position and put more weight on my wrists and shoulders, so I fitted an adjustable stem with the pivot axis directly above the steerer tube, and started adjusting the stem a bit further back each ride, waiting for it to feel unstable.. my bars are now straight above the steering axis, about 100mm higher than they used to be, and I haven't felt any instability.
My wrists and shoulders love it..
Yes, climbing is not as easy and you end up with your elbows very bent, but the downhill and riding on level ground is fine.
Obviously my usage and riding style is different to most of your (younger) viewers, but that's been my experience with bars in pretty much the position given by that stem, so I am not too surprised you found it ok on the downhills..
Dropper stem? It would have to be on parallel links not a simple pivoted "lever" (to keep the brake lever position sensible in both / all positions), and the motion would probably have to be damped. The latch mechanism would have to be VERY secure... but hey, what's life without a challenge!!?
Been doing this for years with super stubby stems and tall riser bars. This just looks like that idea turned to 11 and I'm here for it.
Every benefit mentioned here reminds me of how I felt when I put a 60mm riser bar on my bike. My downhill confidence skyrocketed and I have to sit on the top of my saddle for long steep climbs. My bars look a little goofy too. Definitely worth it.
I had a 50mm riser on top of 60mm Shims.. still rocking 40mm Shims for my dh bike...
Would love to see a bike build around it, because it just makes sense to me: not overloading the front, keeping an active riding position that isn't as hunched forward as on a road bike. Sign me up!
@@0Haldor0 I've been kicking around the idea of trying out the Farr ST Supa Riser bars which have a 50mm rise. I've been concerned the increased rise won't work well but from my research and yours and OmahaMTB experience it may be a game changer for me since I'm more of a descender than a XC rider. Thanks
@@justinkinkade2063 No guarantee though. I would love a short post here once you tried it out :)
I went from a 145mm stem to a 60mm and straight bars to wider riser bars in 2012 and it felt like a brand new bike. HUGE difference.
I'm relatively new to biking, but I always felt "normal" bars were too hunched over. I ended up buying myself the highest riser bars I could find, and found I was much more comfortable on flat and downhill, and I got less forearm, hand and shoulder fatigue. I do need to try a little harder to not wheelie on climbs, but overall it's worth it.
I'm curious what makes this thing any different than a riser bar + steer tube extender (or simply less trimmed steer tube).
great video, and great idea. If you're in a downhill race and everyone else's bike is optimized for climbing, but you only optimize for descent, you have an advantage, simple as that. love it
@Berm Peak Express
Mech. Eng. here: the reason why the raised stem is better than the forward stem most MBKs use is because of three reasons.
1) As you said, trail on the front tyre is lower, but it's still positive and so you still have the caster angle to save your stability, as you showed.
2) The bars being closer to the steering axle allow you to be more precise in finding the apex of a turn, because you can see better where the tyre is without having to correct in your mind for it. With a forward stem, the bar is on the same line as the wheel's centre of rotation, and this line is parallel to the front fork. This forces you to "calculate" subconsciously how much you want to turn the bar to have the tyre do what you want. With a "raised and pulled back" stem, the bar is on the same axis as the fork, so you have a better visual correlation to your steering. It's the same mechanism motorbikes use.
3) Allows your posture to be straighter (a bit like a Dutch Omafiet or an Italian Cittadina) allowing you to more effectively see the corners better. A bit like in a Vespa.
The problem with this setup is mainly on the power delivery and aerodynamics: a straighter seating position is more comfortable but it doesn't let you push the pedals as effectively, so you'll lose some power overall. Aerodynamically, the straighter sitting will increase the drag, lowering your top speed. Both of these issues become less important if you're doing short bursts of power and speeds aren't so high that you're running the Hour Record, so for Bikecrossing it's more than okay.
This actually makes a ton of sense for descending. However, I think the ideal stem height probably varies by bike size and rider height which is probably why Seth struggled to climb with it.
Im a mountain sledder and weâve always had these sort of risers, so Iâm shocked that this is new. Higher stem/riser should be good for descending and flat ground. When climbing you want a shorter stem to keep the weight more on the front tire.
Dropper stems, calling it
An issue with the whole caster, trailing, steering axis explanation.
It doesnât matter that the hands are leading the steering axis. All that matters is the axis is ahead of the contact patch.
The hands are disconnected.
You could have the bars way behind the axis and steer it like a rudder, it would still be inherently stable.
It would not be easy to ride due to physical positioning, but it would not affect the stability of the bike.
For steering like a rudder, recumbent bikes are often an example of this. It takes a bit of getting used to, but is perfectly ride able.
If nobody is on the bike I 100% agree with you, but can you help me to understand why it still wouldnât matter with a rider descending, pushing on the handlebars? Iâm not an expert on geometry by any means, and Iâm open to being wrong on this point!
As a competent rider (which you clearly are, I have been watching for years) you know you shouldnât be âpushingâ on the bars.
You are just guiding them in the right direction.
The only influence you have over the castor effect is the weight of your body on the pedals/seat.
Which if anything helps the castor.
Yes you do push and pull on the bars when riding, but not to affect the steering, just to weight and unweight the front wheel.
Just another thought.
When you do push on your bars you are are not generally pushing forward, you are pushing down through your forks in line with the axis of rotation thus not changing the axis/contact patch relationship.
@@rossgirven5163 when riding, youâre almost always pushing on the bars, just being in a stable position. Try getting into your attack position and then removing your hands from the bars without adjusting your body. It will probably not work too well
I liked both your ideas. An in between size or adjustable sounds really great.
You've always been good at conveying a point, and selling it well. Nicely done.
I'm still riding my 2002 norco torrent size small and I'm 6 feet tall I've got a Funn adjustable stem that I got almost right away and still love riding this bike. Great video thank you for your interesting and fun information.
Love the riding footage of expecting the worst and immediately being surprised đ
This is actually really interesting. I think I might know why this thing performs the way it does. I have this issue on my downhill bike a lot, when the handlebars are lower and in front I feel weird going on super steep stuff or jumps cause my body position is too far forward so Iâm not as balanced on the bike. When I lean back it gets better but my arms are almost locked out so I have less control. When that stem is on, it pushes your weight back forcing your center of mass to be farther back on the bike. This is why corners are really nice with it, too much weight on the front in a corner gets sketchy but if you move your weight back it gets much more smooth (especially at high speed). Thatâs why he said he felt like he couldnât keep the front down when climbing, cause his center of mass was farther back on the bike. This is my take anyway. Not gonna lie, Iâd totally buy that lol
Yes, this is clearly the reason. No mystery. It optimizes the body positioning window for downhills to the detriment of climbing body position. It's a give and take.
@@oskjan1 meanwhile the creator of this stem basically says "can't climb with it? skill issue." but this does indicate that clearly, bar height should vary for uphill/downhill applications. I mean, obviously. As mentioned, the instinct to balance is pivotal to biking. I do like the idea of having some slack in your elbows while riding though the cost of having to pull my wrists probably behind my spine to get a good angle for climbing seems a bit... steep. (L.L)
I love your view on different mountain biking products, so open minded and smart!!
Had installed 100mm raised handlebar on very short stem year ago in order to increase comfort by getting more bent elbows. When i have planned that i thought thats obvious - unlocked elbows must be more comfortable than classic sport-like pose that came to us with many other things from bicycle sports. We riding for fun, so we can change anything to get the new expirience without reference to current cycling fashion trends. There are no reason to spend four hundred trying it. Chinese tall handlebars are extremly cheap.
For example, despite the fact that it is generally accepted that a city bike should have 28 inch wheels with narrow tires my city bike have only 24" wheels with fattest tires i found for it. Because when you ride for fun around the city, you often have to make 90° and sharper turns, and as a motogymkhana participant in the past, I can say that fast turning on small thick wheels is twice as pleasant as on large narrow ones if not more.
Iâve found itâs always easier to notice when something is an improvement by going back to what you had before. The deficiencies the new product addresses become extremely obvious
Seth what I love about you is you engage so well with the viewer, not only for the bike nerds but for those who arenât. You make the videos and explain things how I wish I could. You the man
I wonder what the comparison is of this stem vs super high rise bars like Chromag FU40s in terms of position for your hands and steering. It seems to me that Bronson is trying to get his bike to be more like the older 26â downhill bikes in that they were very tall and the reach and wheelbase were both shorter and allowed you to apex with the bike further over. Seems to me to make sense since the older style bikes from 10-15 years ago you had to move around more and wrestle the bike around. Could be that for Bronson the changes of modern bikes have moved away from how he wants his bike to handle and this is his way of countering some of it to fine tune his style. Got to give the guy props for going out and swinging at something that seems so different to the norm. Kind of like the Grim donut, it seems like sometimes you stumble upon something.
As a bike noob yeah he explained it pretty darn well
I'm actually really surprised that this hasnt been a thing before. Been putting risers on snowmachine and atvs for a long long time. I'm not sure about dirtbikes as I dont own one but I know for turning and several other points you made like being able to push the bike away from you or pull back, it 100% makes sense. Even my old bmx I was atleast able to change the position of the bars to angle forward or back and they were on their own cradle/riser just by the shape of the bars.
Bro! I put a cannondale tredwell riser bar on my brand new Habit HT 3 and I couldn't love it more. It's about 100mm taller. I hadn't watched your video prior to doing it but, I knew it would improve the bike the moment I conceived the thought! Crazy!!!
I rode Bmx mostly years ago and I would try to keep my fork and bars aligned. To me it seems very similar to that unique stem. High rise and not to forward. Itâs almost like setting up a mountain bike like a Bmx, (well in my mind at least). Keep up the great vids, always a great watch
im going to say the same thing it is just like a mountain bike with a BMX handle bar. dont need 400 to buy the stem to test it out just put a short stem and add a BMX handle bar. im sure it will fee the same way
Yeah, I saw the 5 minute introduction and wondered if they never saw a BMX or assumed their audience didn't. What's next, showing a bike with custom hub gear and inferring hub gears are some kind of mad science "that shouldn't work"?
i just said this!!!!!!!!
and still there are a lot of bmx pros (felix prangenberg for example) that ride their bmx bars so that their grips are directly over their front hub. it is just personal preference. i dont think that those goofy stemps would make worldcup riders quicker, otherwhise they wouldn't increase their reach all the time if it wouldn't work out.
I just recently put a taller freestyle bars on my BMX bike. It looks wierd and I think I am a little slower out of the gate, but I am so much more stable everywhere else my lap times went up about a second. I feel like I am in the bike, rather then on the bike.
I'm not even a mountain biker, but your reviews are that captivating I genuinely get curious about the sport i've never tried.
I haven't mountain biked in 20 years. But back before I had a driver's license, my monstrosity of a mountain bike had flipped handle bar risers, and super tilter foward instead of up bars. This was the late 90's early 2000's, and my handle bar riser was basically a 45 and my bars stepped up high enough that by the handles my hands stayed in-line with the forks. I loved it.
Once, at 13-years-old, I even did that same straight edge measurement while arguing with my late teens cousins who worked in the factory at Norco (as young laborer's) to afford their 30K bikes to go with their 3K cars.
I vote for the dropper stem. Let's see a prototype! Interesting concept; good video. Thanks for all your hard work on the channel.
Only a matter of time
A dropper stem can actually be a brilliant ideađ
Would love to watch how it performs đ
That's actually a great idea.
Iâm in for the rotate forward dropper stem
I had a suspension stem back in 93
It makes so much sense to me, for 15 years Iâve been saying to put a smaller wheel on the back when you go down hill and this stem has the same effect of raising the front of the bike.
This system makes sense to me because a smaller wheel will cause other problems, where the riser levels out the rider without trading obstacle clearance ability.
those exist now, they're called "mullets", and they're 29" in the front and 27.5" in the back.
there is the short lived 69r a 26" rear and 29'' front they were a thing for about a blink of an eye back around 2010 around the time 29rs came into the world. The thought was youd get the lower overall low end tourqe of the 26 to get you moving, and the 29 in front for easy rolling over objects that wheel size difference is like that of a dirt bike
Hell, back in the 90âs people tried 24 rear with their 26 front. It went away
Always love your evolving music choices, very interesting vid
Love the dropper stem idea like lock out shocks and dropped seats it's part of the dream bike that no matter the terrain you feel confident and comfortable
FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY we have a discussion about risers! I had no idea this was a thing & I've been wishing my bike had one. I can see how one of these would take a lot of stress off the back and wrists.
Mountain biking is so much fun and Iâm very new to it, and Seth, You do such a great job explaining everything which is so helpful for people like me who are just getting into it!!
I have done a similar experiment on a crotch rocket i had once upon a time.
Original bars are actually below the top fork plate, removed and installed risers after drilling through the top plate... What a difference, it was just as stable at high speeds as it was before but city riding became night and day, you could really toss this thing around with the added comfort of a more upright position so this stem makes total sense to me. Its just very aggressive/chunky, if it had a slimmer design but just as strong at half the price, it might sell.
I know this video is 4 months old, so I hope you read comments after the fact.
This seems like exactly what I have been looking for.
Long story short, I used to ride in the 90's, got hurt, couldn't ride for 20 years, recently put a bike back together (2001 specialized Stump jumper FSR XC Comp).
Issue is this wasn't my old bike, I used to ride a 2001 Stump jumper XC comp, that I bought new, and it was the correct size for me, 6'3" 190 lbs at the timer.
20 years later, I am 6'2" 240 lbs and this FSR frame isn't as large as my old hard tail was.
I was out of work during my injury and recovery for 14 years in that time, things were tight, I found this bike at a pawn shop near me for $300 so I had to buy it, even though I knew it wasn't as large a frame as I really probably needed.
So I added a Thompson elite seat post to it, to give me some height to pedal, But now, my bars need to come up at least an inch maybe more, so to me, this looks like a great solution.
I ordered a Bike Stem Riser Bike Fork Stem Extender riser system so I can add or remove inches and put it together where I want, I don't have it yet and I am not 100% I can even install it or it will work on my bike.
Will this mount easily to my 2001 fsr?
Is it only available in one size?
How do I best determine the correct height for my bars?
If you or one of your followers reads this and can help with some info for an old guy 20 years out of the loop, that would be awesome.
Love your content.
Thanks
The dropper stem is what I was thinking mid video. I remember climbing a huge accent and my chest was literally on my stem. I almost never complete that climb but this time.
I thought of that too, and it's probably nowhere near as stupid as it sounds, wich is EXTRMELY infuriating if you ask me. Especially seeing how hard the dropper post changed the way i ride, i'm completely in tune with seth about being worried this is good
When I got back to trail biking a couple of years ago after such learning as I did on old full-rigid frames, the thing that caught my eye was how people were biking with elbows up and out, making a horizontal "iron circle" that would kill my (weak) shoulders. I like my elbows down and in where they can compress by bending and absorb shock and a riser bars are much nicer for me. Also I can have my head up, which is nice, and it's easy to move my weight fore and aft by bending or extending arms. It's maybe harder to get off the back for wheelies, so there's that. If you're controlling your weight (easier to do with an upright posture), steering leverage is just about the width of the bars, if you had a steering wheel like a car you could put your hands on it anywhere. But anyway you don't fast corner by forceably twisting the stem, you lean the bike, the trail angle/direction changes and around you go.
If you're having trouble on the uphills, try leaning forward with elbows close to your hips and pull the bars towards your belt, standing upright like a regular power lifter. Narrower bars (and a shorter frame) are going to makes that easier.
Of course I am an Old Guy who rides relatively gently so if what you want to do is rattle your brain free-falling down the chutes, maybe this new stuff is nicer for you. In summary and in conclusion, different strokes for different folks.
It's called wider bars offer better stability. And a low stem keeps your center of gravity low for better speed downhill. With your bars that high you can't keep the front tire in co tact with the ground as well and lose front traction.
My old Batavus city bicycle had a mechanism in the stem that allowed it to be altered on the fly. It did work with sort of a parallelogram mechanism, so in the lowest position the stem would stick out forward from the head, and in the top most position it'd be basically dead straight over the head. This same mechanism would also allow you to rotate the handle bar itself.
This being an up-right city bicycle the whole adjustable stem was more of a comfort feature than anything else. The handle bar was a swept back model to begin with, so the hand position was always behind the head regardless. Unless you really dropped the handle bar down in order to get some sort of sketchy tuck going on.
This did not look unstable to me. As a trained automotive tech the idea of positive caster creating stability is well understood. If what you suggest is true, I suggest bike enthusiasts like yourself have a lot of learning to do before they understand simple suspension geometries. EDIT: You still don't explain why positive caster works. Inclination of the steering axis to a positive caster cause the turning of the wheel to RAISE the height of the frame. This allows gravity to force the steering wheel to want to return to center by design. It isn't the leading-following like you describe.
As a mechanical engineer I thought similar thoughts lol.
I remember Gary Fisher (the man not the company) in about the early 90s came out with short stem/slightly longer top tube geometry for his cross country hardtails. Similar concept, nowhere as extreme as that stem. Felt great on singletrack.
Been riding with the RR Stem for a few months. Itâs absolutely badass. Glad they are getting exposure here. Hopefully, this catches on and becomes normalized.
Thanks for explaining that to us, as a motorcycle rider and a bike rider this helps me understand it a bit more.
My mountain bike doesnât look ânormalâ I have shorter arms so I installed some generic stem raiser. People on the trails make fun of how it looks all the time, and this old man makes fun of all of the younger riders as I beat them down the trail. I fly downhill! And yes incline is a bit harder but who raises up hill? The fun is on the downhill for me đ€·đ»ââïž
Great video! I appreciate how genuinely you expressed how this "blew your mind".
This makes sense to me. I come from a BMX background and I was comfortable with the raised handlebars on a BMX. Especially with jumping! But it has taken me awhile to get use to MTB and the more forward body position versus the more neutral body position a raised bar gives you.
Yes the forward position helps with climbing but Seth figured that out with an Axis bar dropper đ
I come from a BMX flatland background myself, but had also spent my share of time in the trails as well.
My BMX is a heavily customized 1981 SuperGoose, with a 1979 Cook's Brothers laid back braced seatpost.
I've found that although the 20" bike is otherwise a bit small for average adults, the laid back seatpost gave me like exactly the space I needed between my knees and the handlebars.
My handlebars aren't original, but still sit up a bit high like typical BMX bikes from the 70s, 80s and 90s. I have the stem set as low as possible, given the height of the handlebars, and I have the hand grips directly in line with the steering tube.
I have the seat set parallel with the top tube, and basically I've found this geometrical alignment to work fantastic for me in most riding conditions.
My legs have clearance, my elbows have flex room, my butt sits directly on the same plane of rotation as my handlebars, and if I spin my handlebars around 180â° they're still in exactly the same position as they're aligned with the steering tube.
I've also found that it seems rather helpful that the axle span is almost exactly 3 feet, which is almost exactly half my body height.
Although my bike isn't a mountain bike, nor is it a typical BMX flatland bike you'd expect today, it indeed is an official BMX bike that was once used in competitions. I believe the steering tube angle is like 72â°, but it's been forever and a day since I originally measured it.
Regardless, I've found that having a laid back seatpost with the seat height in line with the handlebars, the handlebars in line with the steering tube, and the axle span approximately half my body height to give me the best overall control.
Though I gotta say, it has absolutely zero suspension, and with tires pumped up to like 90PSI, you can feel every single pebble in the road/trail...
But hey, to each their own riding style huh?
Edit: Yes I'm a brakeless rider haha!
Exactly my case as well, I raced BMX when I was a kid and I am not satisfied with the MTB standard for handlebars.
Seth needs to file a patent on the Dropper Stem immediately.
he cant, he told us about it.
@@deadprivacy He can, if the original idea is his and he can produce a unique and original way for it to be achieved, he can file a patent for it. If there are no (valid) objections, a patent may be granted.
I saw a dropper stem specimen in 1998 at a technical college fitting and machining department .
@@bobtahoma But he can't, im already filing the patent today.
@@bobtahoma oh indeed, but he cant patent the concept, which if he was first to envision and hadnt announced . then he could.
i cannot think of something more ill conceived and dangerous though.
accidental activation at speed woukld have to be mitigated in ways that would likely be prohibitive to the weight of such a concept.
Iâve seen the inventor at Greer. The reason it works, is again keeping your elbows bent and it forces you to drive your weight through your feet. Your hands are too high to put any weight on your hands. I adopted this body position a long time ago while I was being coached by a downhill guy, deeply bent knees, and no weight on the hands that way you can push the bike and move the bike around more just maintaining better contact with the ground when you need traction and also being able to pull it up into you when you want to float over stuff. So bent knees, leaning over at the waist chest down, elbows up an bent. Basically these handlebars force you to drive the weight through the feet and keep the weight off the hands.
I had something very similar to this in the early 2000's, my dad bought me and my brother one each for our dirt jumpers as we were both small for the bikes at the time, loved it at the time.
Been running extra spacers, short stem, and higher rise bars. Itâs not an aggressive pedaling position, but Iâm just here the downhill party anyway. Now Iâm wondering if I should go taller! Great explanation of the geometry and function in this video!
I would say go for it! The RR stem is in stock. The RR stem is both Raised up and Reversed in offset so that your hands are ultimately behind the steering axis instead of in front as is traditional. The Raised height helps improve the riders stance with a better arm angle to the bars for confidence, proper bend in the elbows for control, and more rider weight supported by their legs instead of arms. It also gives a longer and better angled lever between their hands and feet to give them more leverage for maneuvering the bike. These help the rider to feel more comfortable and confident, and makes the bike more maneuverable. The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. It allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike over more for a kinematically tighter turn. The hand to front axle position parallels a 58 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better and feel more confident in steep terrain.
This makes sense to me. After I started experimenting on my custom build, I've always found that putting my handlebars higher makes the handling better. And I also can see how this is not going to take off for a while, the cycling community in general is extremely opposed to anything that doesn't seem conventional and many people find all kinds of reasons and excuses for why something is not a good idea without even trying it.
Also, I think the correct way to address this would be in bike geometry, that is start making bikes with taller headtubes.
I always hated how hunched over I get with bikes. I get that its aerodynamic or what, but buddy my diet aint aerodynamic either, stop hunching me over so much lol
Great reporting love the transparent talk you get from out of your actual thoughts. I subscribed.
Iâve always wanted my bars raised should build my own thanks dude off the confidence
Most riders likely couldn't care less but I think the whole concept is very interesting and it does create more questions and "what ifs." I would be very interested in any follow ups on this stem or other experiments with bike/steering geo. Nice job, Seth, of controlling the skepticism and being as objective as possible. Well put together I'm no bike mechanic but I love knowing how things work.
Iâm thinking about this like 4WD suspension. If you mount your shock higher and add a longer spring, you can gain articulation.
Your higher mounting point adds upward articulation, and the longer spring (like the longer mtb stem) adds articulation downwards. Very cool!
I know I am nobody in the bike world. However I will say from over 12 years as a bike officer and a kid who grew up roughly the same time frame as you good sir. It does remind me more of the BMX style as far as body position, and from riding years of 10 hour shifts and experiencing neck issues from the more stretched out and not as upright, for general riding, it almost makes me want to try a BMX style handle bar to see. I know from riding dual sport motorcycles since the age of 14 as well, so many guys put bar risers on there dirt bike and dual sports, and essentially, I put some riser bars on my work mountain bike. It helped with the neck stress, but this is so interesting to me. Obviously, you know my profession I retired from, so this is out of my budget, but it does make me wonder for the average rider who is not doing the extreme riding, how much more comfortable this could potentially be. Watch yourself come over the bridge as you was standing in a more normal stance, not an aggressive bike stance, but more relaxed stance and you look very normal and relaxed in that stance, not as bent over and more upright. (roughy 12 minute mark) Thanks again for sharing this with us all, and I truly hope you can do some more testing and be able to share more information with us later on down the line. Keep up the great work sir.
Dale
THis spring I decided to try something different because my hands were going numb all the time. I took off a 70mm stem with 3* rise and a set of bars that had a 10mm rise. I installed a stem with 45mm length and a 15* rise then installed a set of Deity 80mm rise bars. Not only did it cure my numb hands the bike handle way better. Yes its a little adjustment on going uphill with your body position but it is well worth the trade off.
I recently came back to Mountain Biking using my Trek Superfly 7 hardtail from a period of only riding Motorbikes and the main thing that I found really hard to get used to was the riding position but specifically how hunched forward I am on the AM bike.
This guy is onto something.
Looks very similar to my bar position on my enduro dirt bike and how i have it setup.
Makes sense to me. I have actually been trying to find a higher bar for my hardtail. This would be a super pricey solution, but it lookâs to sit at the spot I was ideally imagining.
Cool vid. Love your humor
Shortest stem and rise bar and you are almost there for fraction of money.
@@zazu9117 I've had a hard time finding a good rise bar
I recently purchased a new bike with a reach 60mm greater than I was familiar with, I ended up with sciatic nerve problems due to this. My solution was fitting 75mm high rise bars and a 35mm stem. It is not quite as unusual as this stem but it definitely not the norm and a superb solution to my problem, and as an added bonus my bike looks extremely unique "Performance before Fashion" is all that matters.
huh, makes sense to me that this works. I find a lot of bikes have too low of stack heights and too long of stems. Usually my 1st mods are 40-50mil rise bars, stupid short stems and not cutting off my fork too much to allow a higher stack height. I find bikes feel really good this way, this guy took it to the extreme. I want one!
This didnt seem like a bad idea from the beginning. It effectively gives you a more upright body position. It makes good sense, because the most remarcable difference between my modern gravity bike and my old xc bike is the geometry which makes me feel im not throwing myself head first into the trail. So maybe more of that should be good.
It really sucks that nobody seems to have yet experimented a really wide range of different geometries and really found some optimamized geometry
As soon as I saw this I saw less weight on the front wheel which can be good for DH (not always as it may lose a little breaking). Your 'climbing' point of the front wanting to come up made complete sense. I would think it would help in the air to stop nose dives, no idea if you are more likely to loop out though? All in all a cool idea and props to the guy who made it!
edit, the dropper stem would be great. Only downside I see is the weight.
The angle being talked about isn't "trailing angle," its actually called "caster angle," and for many years, caster angle was adjustable on cars. It still is adjustable on straight-line drag cars, simply because on a hard, torqued take-off from a start line on a drag-racing strip, you don't want the car to rise up, get both wheels off the ground, and then while in air, have the wheels turn, then hit the ground while turned, and send a car into the outer wall or into the other lane. Caster angle resists this by making it hard to turn a set of front wheels under power.
This is why on a mountain bike, caster is important, and why a rider should, where possible, use berms to corner, as the steering force in a berm isn't from the handlebars, but is rather from the caster angle being led by centripetal force that holds the tires to the surface of the berm. High-angle curved banks at NASCAR tracks like Daytona and MIS work the same way, except NASCAR racing cars have a wedge adjustment to level out the cars at speed, and make turning a tad bit flatter, despite the caster angle in the front suspension of the car.
Being lower makes you put more weight on the handles. That have three consequences. First some of the rider muscle struggles more with supporting itself and restrict some muscle and mobility availability for negotiating path. Second having more weight on the steering wheel increase the stress on the tire in turns maximizing sheer with the surface. So removing the weight on the front wheel increase steering capability. Having more of the riders weight on the hind wheel that follow the steering wheel is harder on the hind tire, but not as critical to follow the path. This straighter posture of the rider along with a higher grip, allow to steer with the upper body arms and chest instead of making use of mostly the core and torso as the arms are stuck supporting the rider on the steering.
When it comes to climbing, now most of the weight of the rider is dropped at the back and it becomes harder for the rider to keep the steering still on the uneven ground. Most likely in steep slope, riders tend to grind to keep momentum but also to help steer from the front becoming lighter. And with a raised steering, the need to crouch on top of the steering becomes more difficult.
As a kid I rode a GT Dyno on trails around my house. It was essentially a mountain bike for me, and the high bars felt completely normal. Now I have a Commencal and I upgraded bars to the highest rise bars and highest stack possible. Itâs not quite to this level but Iâm a fan of bars being higher. Iâm all for this
I understand with you mean. Only having a BMX bike wouldn't stop me from riding the trails. I always said if I could get a mountain bike to feel like a BMX bike it would be perfect.
I bet your mom was pissed!
I 100% agree with this. I grew up riding BMX. When I had a mountain bike a couple years ago I did everything I could to get my bars closer to my chest. It made for an awesome downhill riding and "okay" for climbing I would say. When Seth was trying to explain why you might think It looks like it wouldn't work, I was thinking that's exactly what I would want. I feel like I have more leverage and being compact when riding downhill. The idea of one that moves and gives you the best of both worlds is phenomenal.
Last night I was wondering if one of those existed. Then today this video was suggested to me. I love it. It makes perfect sense and it definitely does not look unstable. Motorcyclists are always raising, lowering or moving their handle bars a little forward or backwards to the position that feels best for them. It makes sense that bicyclists would want to do the same thing.
MTBs from the 90s were essentially modifed street bikes with thicker frames and tires and wider forks. Early 2000 era roughly when Seth mentioned ... 2003-2005 era MTBs started morphing into what is available today > essentially sitting on them like you're riding a chopper (motorcyle). The riding positions from early MTBs has definitely changed over the past 30+ years.
I've been following BMB for a little bit. So cool to see Seth shinning light on fairly small mtb innovators.
I think hi rise bars are generally a decent solution. Kind of in between, also gives you a little more space to get your body foward. Climbing.
And tyo Seth's comment regarding the longer stem. My '99 Raleigh M60 had a long stem going up and toward the front (hung over the front tire); not quite as long as what you're showing in this video but long enough to be almost "normal" relative to this thing. But compared to something circa 2023 > my current trail bike the top and down tubes merge almost to a single point at maybe 3.5 inches or so. The more things change the more things are brought back from the past.
Well, zero millimetre stems had been a thing already twenty years ago, integrated into the fork's top crown, in downhill, just as your experience indicated - back then people also used to ride sufficiently risen bars and not that slightly bent crosscountry things they grasp on nowadays. Had the same effect - hightened handlebars without any rake in regards of the fork's shaft.
God, I'm old.
Great video by the way - subbed. đ
This was a good watch. I'm not into mountain biking at all but I got this in my feed. Mostly thinking why not run a BMX bar instead, you might be able to adjust it for easier climbing. The explanation of the steering angle was cool
I was searching for exactly that comment. The thing makes a MTB bar an incredible expensive BMX bar... đ.
@@schertschert must be enough weight saving to justify for racing