So it turns out you need a special dye for those spokes, not just any old tie dye. Berd actually sells a coloring kit. Like I said, I'm not experienced in the dirty hippie arts!
Hi there, can you please do a video on Internal hubs like Shimano Alfina 8/11speed or Rohloffs 14-speed hubs? Not sure why Mountain bikes do not incorporate these. Maybe it's the low gear cadence in s Shimano. Rohloff's are the best but cost a £1000 more
Yea, I read that plastic syringes are also made of PE, and they are known to be non-adhesive to so many things. It may mean that those spokes also may not be very adhesive to many things.
You don't know what tie-dyeing is, do you? You just mean dyeing. Tie-dyeing is a process whereby you 'tie' your shirt up in a knot before soaking it in dye so that it dyes the garment in a funky pattern. All you are doing to those spokes is dyeing them.
Very interesting. Similar materials have been used in wheelchair sport chair spokes as it has the ability to make you faster and more efficient. Asides from that they don’t hurt as much when catching your spokes.
Yeah, spinergy has been doing spokes like these for a while. Primary difference is spinergy doesn't weave their fiber, and jackets it instead. Makes it a bit heavier, but should be more durable. These kinda of fiber suck with abrasion, so i worry about how a woven fiber will wear in the dirt. They started in mtb wheels, and still make them, but wheelchairs are more lucrative so they have mostly transitioned to that.
I'll never forget when I worked in a bike shop when I was a kid and a guy came in in a wheelchair with those badass spinergy wheels with the yellow spokes and told us they were made from the same stuff they tethered the astronauts to the space station. He then left the shop, got into his Corvette with hand Controlla and rolled out. So cool, dude
From an engineering Standpoint i can support your claims: reducing the undamped mass (the wheels in this case) is preferable for smoother rides and shoudl improve the ease of handling. In addition, the metal spokes are not different to the string when it comes to designing them. Thin metal rods are consiered as strings when designed. They simply cannot take pushing forces.
"Thin metal rods are consi[d]ered as strings when designed. They simply cannot take pushing forces." That's what I was thinking too. Glad to see it confirmed. It's all based on tension no matter the material.
@@JoeJoe-lq6bd we learned this within the first semester at engineering school. Not on spokes in particular, but rods in general. The tension forces are high enough to compensate for any event that will put compression on the rod. If the tension is not sufficient, the rod will fold immediately. However, a string can cope with that, a metal rod will break after a couple of cycles
@@mortenalbertsen7443 same as pretensioned reinforced concrete. The tension in the rods is enough, and when it finally isn't the whole thing folds in half like a sheet of paper.
@@tissuepaper9962 it follows the same idea, yes. Concrete is kind of bad at taking tensile stress. So by introducing those rods, the concrete will always be loaded by compression, which it is excellent in dealing with. Such an awesome concept!
I’ve been using Berd since 2019. One set is on a rigid ss xc bike, and the other is on a short travel full suspension. After thousands of miles of single track, I’ve had 0 issues. It still scares me when sticks get caught in the wheels, but I’ve never broken a spoke.
do you have experience with black berd spokes? i ordered a custom wheelset with Berd spokes for my Trail 429 Enduro, and saw someone post the black wears off.
I would imagine the flexibility of these spokes would put them at an advantage vs sticks. An aluminum spoke would bend under too much pressure so they tend to deform. Carbon Spokes tend to snap under a lot of weight. Both of these are unlikely if your spokes are of good quality but they can happen. This material seems to have neither the permanent deformation that the aluminum spokes have nor the tendency to shatter like Carbon spokes might. Instead, their slight compliance likely makes it harder for sticks to break them, as they don't resist the pressure of the stick completely
second this - trying to find similar tech that I don't have to sell a kidney for but when I can everything is getting the soft spokes people that have their doubts need only look at the field of robotics to see that soft and compliant machines are the future, be they spokes on a bicycle or an articulated joint in factory automation in fact what people are finding is that their rims are staying trued through some of the worst abuse they can lay into them, lots of it would not only taco but probably shatter wheels with traditional spokes i can't remember the channel but someone made their own out of commonly available materials and they worked well enough to prove the concept, but now I'm motivated to make my own tech so I can help accessibility to improvements for people, especially those like me who are physically limited and want to get back to the woods but can't exactly walk all the way there any more (or really much at all).
My XC team is partnered with Berd and their stuff is mind blowingly light thanks to their unique spokes. Cool company and very well suited for XC racing.
Not heard about these cord spokes before - what's interesting to me is how they demonstrate that your bike (and you) are in fact hanging off the spokes at the top of the wheel at any given moment, not pushing down on the spokes at the bottom.
@@myrealusername2193 Even with metal spokes, they yould just buckle if loaded in compression. They don't actually support the hub from the bottom in the first place
When pushing down on a bike hub the rim tends to go oval in the horizontal, which puts a lot of tension in the horizontal spokes to hold the shape and in the top vertical from the actual pushing.
Cool product, some things that would be interesting to me: - UV: PE can get brittle with UV, normally they use stabilizers but still, what if you lay your bike in the sun often - Heat: like above, what if you lay your bike in the sun (especially with black spokes), PE has a heat deflection temp (hope that is what it is called in english) of 45°C. Do they stretch with repeated heating? - Solvents/Oils: especially things you might use on your bike that might drop onto the spokes
@@wdbullseye7394 most definitely, because he is not sure about translation of term to english. Therefore he is probably not native english speaker and those use °C cause it has same "step" as Kelvins
Holy crap Seth, that comparison of the difference between transistor based solid state amps and tube amps being like the difference between traditional spokes and these spokes hit me in the feels. I'm a guitar, pedal and amp modder and builder and it was like you made that comparison just for me lol. I literally just retubed my Marshall DSL100HR yesterday. Just when I thought I couldn't love the channel anymore than I already do you go and talk my language lol.
A couple years ago in the mountaineering world, Petzl rocked the boat a little bit by putting out some crampons that used similar polyethylene cords to connect the front half and back half of the crampon, which dramatically reduced their weight and pack size. Traditionally crampons have a steel or aluminum "connecting bar" so connect the front and back of the crampon, which are the parts that actually snap to your boots. While crampons are made for snow and ice its actually extremely common to walk and climb over rock with crampons on, so I remember a lot of people were skeptical that the crampons would last long, and there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for them. flash forward a couple years, and the concept has really taken off! Over time the polyethylene cord proved to be remarkably durable even against sharp rock and even at the tension required to securely hold those crampons on your boots, and they are still extremely light compared to even the best crampons using connecting bars. Other manufacturers are starting to iterate on the idea, and climbers are starting to warm up to them since it really seems like they've stood the test of time. I've even seen guides retrofit the polyethylene cords to aggressive, heavy crampons meant for climbing vertical ice and rock. Polyethylene cord is an incredible material, and while it's easy to be skeptical when you look at it, I'm betting you'll be really surprised by how those spokes last. If there's any reason to object to these wheels, I think its because setup is a pain, not because you doubt the material. If you want to see what I'm talking about, look up the Petzl Irvis Hybrid Crampon or Petzl Leopard Crampon.
interesting, i got some new petzl crampons a few months ago but don't recall seeing that tech. mine are mountaineering w connecting bars, not ice climbing, where i would think the weight advantage would be more helpful. i'll check out the leopards. 👍🏽
@@gabeah The weight advantage is mainly if you are doing long days on skis and only need the crampons for a while just to summit. They take up less space and weight in your pack
If i remember correctly, these are for light ice walk or just in case crampons (e.g. for ski touring).. i am not sure if it is really recommended for general mountaineering/ ice climbing...
I watch your content like this, and even though I don’t ride (bmx) anymore, and haven’t for years, I still enjoy your content, and watch every new video that pops up.
I’ve been running them for a few months on my hardtail and I’m very impressed. The weight on long climbs feels substantial. Sprinting up short punchy stuff also feels incredible. I’m 220 and have hammered them. So far their perfect.
I race XC, Road and CX and I have Berd wheels on all my bikes and I love them! I have had them on my XC bike for a little over a year and they have held up great!!
I’ve been running the xc25’s since 2019 and have a set of the 30’s on my other bike. The xc25’s have over a thousand miles are still true. I recently broke a nipple on the 25s but that has been the only issue I’ve had after years. They are wheels that “spoil” you. I’ve ran evne, bontrager , and nox carbon and the berds are all I own now
Could be interesting to compare the gyroscopic impact of the lighter wheel. Hold the wheel by the axels, give it a good spin, and try to angle it in the air. The lighter wheel should fight back a lot less, which would translate to making the bike easier to rock side to side, do whips, etc.
Well that's pretty much always going to be true for lighter rims. Weight distribution matters too. The further away you are from the axle, the more does the weight matter and here you actually have metal at the end of the spokes. Also, while lighter wheels have an easier time changing direction, they are also are less stable. In either case it's something that's going to make a minute difference at best for actually perceivable ride characteristics. The biggest difference you're actually going to notice is the compliance.
have regular boring alloy wheels on my MTB but have been running Berds on my gravel bike for 4 months or so now. i love them. they're lightweight, strong, and feel great. definitely in agreement that the black spokes are probably a better idea for most riders though
I have been running these spokes (and same SS specific hub) on my Atomik hoops for 5000+ miles with zero issues. Just as mentioned in the video, they will reduce the feel of trail chatter make your bike feel smoother!
I still remember watching your videos when i still had a bmx, please keep making more content, you're the best Seth! I still remember watching Berm Creek
Berd spokes also have a vid on normal spokes compared to their spike when a stick or debris get in the wheel their spokes flexed and had no issues normal spokes bent and stayed that way and a slow motion vid shows on impact their spokes have the compliance to give a little making harsh things a little nicer so that’s probably what Seth is feeling when he says smoother
Seth I built my own set of wheels with I9 Hydra hubs, WeAreOne Carbon Convert rims (27.5”) laced with the Berd black spokes. I found the build was easier than using steel spokes. I’ve been running them for several months now on Vancouver’s North shore trails. So far no issues with them at all. As far as feel, I think they feel like you are riding on a soft cloud. They are awesome at dampening the trail chatter. I find that they are just awesome at giving the extra compliance. I’ve had no issues on big hits. And they silence just lets you focus on your trail line. It is hard to describe the “feel” of them. But they are awesome! I agree that unless you really want the extra weight savings (it is awesome, they spin up easier), and have extra cash and want the bling, regular carbon/steel spokes almost as good. Love your videos. Keep ‘em coming!
I love how you clean everything, while it’s apart, smart I do the same with anti intake apart and out back together, it’s a good rule of thumb to follow
@@davidstolkacevs871 they not only tested longevity over there but recently build a model to simulate the behavior of both solid and flexible spokes. as i recall, the lateral compliance is what differentiated them...
Ive been running them on my Enduro bike for over two years with absolutely zero issues. Usually in that time I would've broken a couple regular spokes at least.
I’ve got these on both my all mountain hard tail and my stumpy evo. I’ve got over 700 miles on the set on my stumpy including a trip to Sedona and enduro racing and they’re holding up great. Love the lightweight feel and the dampened ride these wheels give you.
I’ve been riding Berd Spokes for 2 years. Never had an issue and I have slammed them into some funk. Describing the feel as “warmer” is a great way to put it. I always say they cut out a lot of the noise and quiet down the trail.. in terms of feedback. I feel more connected
Don’t get these in black or any dye, it wears off leaving a mix of white and black. Stick to the white and it isn’t hard to clean. In my opinion these are mainly worthwhile if paired with a very light rim and hub to get to a 1000-1200g XC wheelset (since they’re expensive).
I had that exact problem with the black spokes until I heard that you can use a sharpie pro to make them the same color again, so I went out and bought one and sure enough it made them look brand new!
Sub 1000g easily. I've laced up for an XC racer with Extralite hubs, 28 berd spokes (front and rear) and rideberg 30mm wide 29er rims, 451g front 521g rear. It's a huge pain in the ass to build with these damn strings... :D
This technology is used for a long time in robotics. They have wrapping connectors made of polymers strings. Very durable, light, reliable, and cheap to fix. They have a filling of a waxed string but they like waxed internally too.
They use dyneema for a ton of applications now. Petzl has used it to link toe and heel pieces on mountaineering crampons and the durability is really good. This is just taking a proven technology using it in a new application. The likely weak point is the metal/dyneema interface.
Dyneema is used extensively in sailing and can handle really intense lateral forces. Many boats have replaced all of their stainless steel standing rigging with “soft” rigging. The only real concern is that it changes tension with changing temperatures.
Exactly my thought. The end of the steel "barb" for the nipple should be tapered, but the worse part looks like where the cord goes into the hole in the hub flange. A sharp bend there can be a huge stress riser.
Spinergy did this a few decades ago with their Spox road wheels, using cable spokes. (apparently they still have them for wheelchairs). They were supposed to increase comfort.
@RealSweetKid We're talking 20 years ago, any US patent would have expired. It also would presumably be for their specific polymer (PBO) and/or the termination, since the general idea of a polymer fiber spoke isn't really non-obvious.
They still use PBO fiber spokes with a colored PE jacket. I have a set of Spinergy GX gravel wheels on my Monstercross bike (it's a custom ti frameset inspired by the salsa cutthroat, or moots baxter) Its more like a XC race bike with drop bars the way I have it set up. And the spinergy wheels ride great, and they have held up to some pretty gnarly use.
I wonder what would happen if the chain ever jams behind the cassette. Will it chew up the spokes, or since they're more supple than steel spokes, would there will be less damage?
One of your best videos Seth. I am on the struggle bus for these wheels trying to shave weight for my new XC bike with DT Swiss XR 1700 wheel sets. [. ]. this close to buying these
Whatt there's BMX string spokes?! I thought there's only MTB ones, well at least Berd doesnt make spokes as small that they would fit for a BMX.. What company?
On a 29er your metal spokes make up about max 200 gram of the weight per wheel. So the maximum reduction is about 400 gram (meaning no spokes). My guess is the most of the weight reduction comes from the hubs and hoops.
he saw a .63kg reduction in weight. so if you estimate 400grams or .4kg just in spokes. this leaves.23kg as the rim/hub weight reduction. so, no, in fact most of the weight reduction in your example would be from the spokes. that is substantial weight savings at that. one thing if we went from some dirt cheap wheels but he started out with a good decently light set and still took of .63kg or 1.4lbs . kinda awesome but for the money.. there are better ways to take the weight off hahah. but i guess when you already have the good stuff then these are the icing on the cake right!
Polyethylene has a density of 0.86. Steel has a density of 7.85. Polyethylene will reduce weight by 90% for the same volume. The down side is that polyethylene loses strength rapidly with heat - above 85C (reachable in the back of a car on a really hot day) you can forget about its tensile strength. Kevlar is better for this application (with the negative that Kevlar loses strength when wet).
@@allangibson8494 You won't be able to very easily apply density math here because you're comparing a braided rope with a knot in one end and a steel spike on the other, to a solid and almost entirely uniform steel wire. When something reduces weight by 90% for the same volume, but you increase its volume significantly, might as well just compare the two using scales.
These spokes been around for more than a decade. I have them on my Devinci Cameleon sx xc 2012 model. The wheels with these spokes made by Spinergy. Awesome wheels. They stay true for ever. Great presentation btw.
I was mentally comparing them to the Spinergys. They were a great comfortable ride on the road but the lateral stiffness was horrible. You could feel the flex. I'd wear rear tires out unbelievably fast and I wouldnt trust them in sprints. Completely different need on a mtb I'd think. Perfect for my hardtail. If the price wasnt so ridiculous. Theres a vid of someone racing another brand with these spokes at Downieville in the all mtn race (xc & dh on the same bike). The dh on both courses is pretty gnarly. The wheels held up fine.
Bicycles have been around for a looong time. Everything that you could think of to improve performance, in various conditions, has been done, to some degree, before. This is a new material but an old idea. It is hard to reinvent the wheel. The reason "flexible" spokes did not make it to the masses is because they require more maintenance and they have a shorter life span than alternatives. Only through trying new things can we help human propelled transportation evolve in to something better. Keep riding!
Durability does not matter to people with upgraditis who change out their gear every season. They'll get bored of the wheels and need to try something else long before they have a chance to fail from fatigue.
They look gross over time. The color faded hella fast on my dyed ones. The white ones get dirty too. They still work though - just don't plan on them looking good haha
A reference to guitar amplifiers, finally something I understand! xD When you said it has a "warmer tone," I knew exactly what you meant. I want to try these now!
They look really cool. I'd trust them, nylon cords have surprisingly great tensile strength. I wonder if they're vulnerable to cuts, but it might not be a concern.
I would think with modern rope technology they'd have the ability to add Kevlar reenforcement into the thread of the spoke to make it extremely durable.
its more durable than kevlar kevlar would weaken theese spokes the material used isUHMWPE (company name is Dyneema(used for example in bodyarmour which is lighter than those made of kevlar))
@@harrie205 This is true. It makes you wonder why Berd doesn't do what Spinergy does on their PBO spokes and add an outer sheathing to protect the spokes from UV, minor abrasion, etc.
@@cup_and_cone i think they are protected (the UHMWPE used should be Dynema(in rope form it usually comes with Protection))(just because berds dont advitise UV protection it does not mean there isnt any )(also UV protection(especially in case of polymers(which are almost all degrading under UV(but at significant different rates) does not mean its gone last forever but you can protect it long enough(in case of UHMWPE so long that it can be used for ropes which are all year round outside))(end finally you have to take in account how much UV exposure a Fancy MTB is getting(most of them are not kept outside, normally they are used outside and stored inside) Also PBO is significantly more deceptable to UV the UHMWPE Berds is only the Spoke maker i dont think they have capacity in Chemical engineering they design/make the system to use flexible textile spokes with normal Rims and Hubs(designed for Metall Spokes)
@@harrie205 The Berd spokes I've seen did not have any physical sheathing/film on them, you can see fiber frays where the mechanical eye splice loops were made; there's no additional protection beyond whatever the makeup of trade name Dyneema is. If I had to guess, Berd buys 2mm Dyneema on big rolls and hand builds the spokes themselves. The Spinergy PBO spokes have a physical sheathing of different material over the Zylon fibers underneath, which makes them waterproof, UV resistant, and most importantly creates a barrier for minor abrasion resistance. The Berds don't really have protection for abrasion resistance (which is arguably the biggest weakness of braided UHMWPE).
@@harrie205 im familiar with dyneema. They make slings that are extremely strong... But they don't have any abrasion resistance. I was thinking something more like rope with aramid fibers... So, strong, but also having abrasion resistance.
Lol!!🤣 I was saying to myself that I can't believe he just said "I'm not a dirty hippie" and then I really laughed out loud when he called Alex, it was already on my mind! I love both these guys!🙃😂
I was a bike shop manager / mechanic back in the 90s, and when the The Bon Ton Roulet kicked off, we'd get to see all sorts of 'different' components being used: Experimental / Production / etc. I most definitely remember 'flexible spokes' back then. I'd only seen them used on those road-bikes.. Fast forward to today: I'm surprised at the fact they're using polyethylene.. With new tech, they could have gone with something like a carbon-strand / hemp-fiber / kevlar-strand combo and the things would have been damn near indestructible. Possibly even heat resistant enough to ride through magma/lava. 🤘😂
I have two wheelsets with these spokes. One is an all mountain carbon wheelset(BERD TR30) for my EVIL Following, another is a 35mm deep gravel wheelset for my 3T Exploro Racemax that I had built by NOBL. They're so amazing and I can't go back to regular spokes. My EVIL is so nimble despite being a 29er and it's so much smoother. My 3T still feels really good but I mostly feel the speed gains because the rims are more aerodynamic and the spokes are better at damping the vibration. You didn't really touch upon the biggest downside to them. They take 4-5 days to build according to NOBL. This is because when you tighten them, they slacken up, and it has to be left overnight 4-5 times and retensioned and then they will stop loosening up. On the upside, the nipples are external you don't have to take off your tires or rim tape to get in there to fix something. They also stay true WAYYY longer than metal spokes. The guys from WorldWide Cyclery had them for over a year and they rode on them hard, the wheels were still true but BERD and NOBL recommend retensioning them every few months so maybe while the wheels stayed straight, they didn't catch that the spokes were looser. If you get the wheelsets prebuilt, they're extremely well priced. I got my TR30s for $1600 since I chose to downspec to i9 1/1 hubs from the Hydras since they were out of stock and I wanted to ride ASAP.
This guy's got some balls to ride shoelace-wheels on that trail. Great job! Of course, I know, it's only tensile strength that counts, so it does not matter if they're wobbling around without tension, but it just looks so wrong.
Had a 2001 version of these on my (made in Santa Cruz, not China) Kestrel 200SCI. They always felt great. I git rid of them after being laughed it during a tune-up some ten years later. The Ksyrium Elites they sold me are amazing, but the old ones added a soft ride and snapped back when you accelerated hard
What I think is cool is that you could get different amounts of tension!! You could buy really stiff strings or really soft ones, or even try soft stiff in the front soft in back and have lots more fine tuning of your bikes feel
The demo ride at the end reminds me of one of Jason Cammisa’s Hagerty car reviews, where the end is just raw footage of the car being driven. Honestly nice touch to the end of this video imo
I’m glad you had luck with the Crank Brothers wheels so far. I did not have that same luck. Dented the rear pretty bad before a race run. I was indeed running CushCore and had 25 psi.
It makes sense that it feels different. Even if this take the same tension as steel spokes. Polyethylene tends to require less force than steel to stretch. Basically they are less stiff springs than steel, therefore yes, their acoustics are different but also their impact absorption is different.
On dying plastics, you'd need the Rit Synthetic. I dye golf discs and that's a common problem with new dyers. On the feel on the trail, I'd say that the poly spokes aren't transmitting the vibration of the ground and wheels to the frame as much, call it dampening. Like putting wider walled tires on the car.
Using a nylon spoke cushions the ride of the bike less of the vibrations from road surface irregularities are felt. What most people don't think of is that the main support of the wheel comes from the top spokes. the hub is hanging from the top of the rim.
good analogy with the tube vs transistor comparison. Also, even with a traditional wheel, 600 grams is alot, you'd feel a massive difference just in the rotational weight alone...so I'd think that with the spokes and carbon rim too it likely feels significantly different than your alloy set.
So it turns out you need a special dye for those spokes, not just any old tie dye. Berd actually sells a coloring kit. Like I said, I'm not experienced in the dirty hippie arts!
It makes me happy u dislike hippies
Hi there, can you please do a video on Internal hubs like Shimano Alfina 8/11speed or Rohloffs 14-speed hubs? Not sure why Mountain bikes do not incorporate these. Maybe it's the low gear cadence in s Shimano. Rohloff's are the best but cost a £1000 more
Yea, I read that plastic syringes are also made of PE, and they are known to be non-adhesive to so many things. It may mean that those spokes also may not be very adhesive to many things.
You need dyes like I-dye Poly, specific for dyeing artificial fibres.
You don't know what tie-dyeing is, do you?
You just mean dyeing. Tie-dyeing is a process whereby you 'tie' your shirt up in a knot before soaking it in dye so that it dyes the garment in a funky pattern. All you are doing to those spokes is dyeing them.
Very interesting. Similar materials have been used in wheelchair sport chair spokes as it has the ability to make you faster and more efficient. Asides from that they don’t hurt as much when catching your spokes.
That's very interesting, and makes sense given their interface with the user's hands
@@BermPeakExpress indeed. Keep up the great content.
Yeah, spinergy has been doing spokes like these for a while. Primary difference is spinergy doesn't weave their fiber, and jackets it instead. Makes it a bit heavier, but should be more durable. These kinda of fiber suck with abrasion, so i worry about how a woven fiber will wear in the dirt. They started in mtb wheels, and still make them, but wheelchairs are more lucrative so they have mostly transitioned to that.
@@paddor When your hand goes into the wheel by mistake
I'll never forget when I worked in a bike shop when I was a kid and a guy came in in a wheelchair with those badass spinergy wheels with the yellow spokes and told us they were made from the same stuff they tethered the astronauts to the space station. He then left the shop, got into his Corvette with hand Controlla and rolled out. So cool, dude
Seth: "I know a lot of dirty hippies"
Seth: "Hey Alex! You know how to tie dye stuff right?"
Heck I thought of Mo and Hannah before he called Alex. haha
Alex came to my mind to but I still laughed out loud when he sad "hi Alex".
I laughed More tag I should've ahhaha
Should have used the synthetic dye though.
From an engineering Standpoint i can support your claims: reducing the undamped mass (the wheels in this case) is preferable for smoother rides and shoudl improve the ease of handling.
In addition, the metal spokes are not different to the string when it comes to designing them. Thin metal rods are consiered as strings when designed. They simply cannot take pushing forces.
great point! it's easy to think of metal as completely inelastic but now that you say it /obviously/ they work the same way as these string ones.
"Thin metal rods are consi[d]ered as strings when designed. They simply cannot take pushing forces." That's what I was thinking too. Glad to see it confirmed. It's all based on tension no matter the material.
@@JoeJoe-lq6bd we learned this within the first semester at engineering school. Not on spokes in particular, but rods in general.
The tension forces are high enough to compensate for any event that will put compression on the rod. If the tension is not sufficient, the rod will fold immediately. However, a string can cope with that, a metal rod will break after a couple of cycles
@@mortenalbertsen7443 same as pretensioned reinforced concrete. The tension in the rods is enough, and when it finally isn't the whole thing folds in half like a sheet of paper.
@@tissuepaper9962 it follows the same idea, yes. Concrete is kind of bad at taking tensile stress. So by introducing those rods, the concrete will always be loaded by compression, which it is excellent in dealing with. Such an awesome concept!
I’ve been using Berd since 2019. One set is on a rigid ss xc bike, and the other is on a short travel full suspension. After thousands of miles of single track, I’ve had 0 issues. It still scares me when sticks get caught in the wheels, but I’ve never broken a spoke.
That's nice to know because one of my first thoughts was what would happen if a stick got caught in the wheel with those spokes.
do you have experience with black berd spokes? i ordered a custom wheelset with Berd spokes for my Trail 429 Enduro, and saw someone post the black wears off.
I would imagine the flexibility of these spokes would put them at an advantage vs sticks. An aluminum spoke would bend under too much pressure so they tend to deform. Carbon Spokes tend to snap under a lot of weight. Both of these are unlikely if your spokes are of good quality but they can happen. This material seems to have neither the permanent deformation that the aluminum spokes have nor the tendency to shatter like Carbon spokes might. Instead, their slight compliance likely makes it harder for sticks to break them, as they don't resist the pressure of the stick completely
I've owned my Bird spokes for about two years now and have had absolutely zero issues too.
I had a set of litecycle rims and 240 hubs laced with Byrd spokes a couple months ago. I like'em.
Ali Clarkson has been running rope spokes on a trials bike, so I think they can handle rim slaps.
second this - trying to find similar tech that I don't have to sell a kidney for but when I can everything is getting the soft spokes
people that have their doubts need only look at the field of robotics to see that soft and compliant machines are the future, be they spokes on a bicycle or an articulated joint in factory automation
in fact what people are finding is that their rims are staying trued through some of the worst abuse they can lay into them, lots of it would not only taco but probably shatter wheels with traditional spokes
i can't remember the channel but someone made their own out of commonly available materials and they worked well enough to prove the concept, but now I'm motivated to make my own tech so I can help accessibility to improvements for people, especially those like me who are physically limited and want to get back to the woods but can't exactly walk all the way there any more (or really much at all).
@@russellzauner NASAs airless tires are a perfect example of this.
He made his own! Also used one longer one that looped through the hub and back to the rim, to avoid needing all the little knots.
I'm I right that his friend had developed them first?
@@stuarts4673 I think his buddy did prototype it first, and then showed him how to make them. Takes a lot of work.
My XC team is partnered with Berd and their stuff is mind blowingly light thanks to their unique spokes. Cool company and very well suited for XC racing.
Not heard about these cord spokes before - what's interesting to me is how they demonstrate that your bike (and you) are in fact hanging off the spokes at the top of the wheel at any given moment, not pushing down on the spokes at the bottom.
It’s kind of both, you just lose the support of the bottom spokes but the ropes are strong enough that it isn’t a problem
@@myrealusername2193 Even with metal spokes, they yould just buckle if loaded in compression. They don't actually support the hub from the bottom in the first place
Bicycle wheels are tensegrity structures. I never thought about it.
When pushing down on a bike hub the rim tends to go oval in the horizontal, which puts a lot of tension in the horizontal spokes to hold the shape and in the top vertical from the actual pushing.
obviously...
The "smoother" feeling could be from high-frequency damping... sort of like the difference in feel between aluminum and carbon bars?
Exactly. Most of the weight and feel is improved from going from aluminum to carbon rims. Poor test when you can't isolate that change.
@@MrKevinWhite carbon rims and good aluminium rims weights about the same nowadays.
@@amdmg7 it’s not about weight. It’s about how the material transfers energy (to the bars)
AluminiUm
@@xanderthomas-nash3320 Next you're going to try to tell me that color has a U in it
Cool product, some things that would be interesting to me:
- UV: PE can get brittle with UV, normally they use stabilizers but still, what if you lay your bike in the sun often
- Heat: like above, what if you lay your bike in the sun (especially with black spokes), PE has a heat deflection temp (hope that is what it is called in english) of 45°C. Do they stretch with repeated heating?
- Solvents/Oils: especially things you might use on your bike that might drop onto the spokes
These are excellent questions! I wonder if aerospace protectant can help with the first point.
I'm wondering if they have a coating to prevent solvents etc
I’d be more concerned about snagging it on anything that may cut through the material, would untrue the wheel right away.
@@wdbullseye7394 most definitely, because he is not sure about translation of term to english. Therefore he is probably not native english speaker and those use °C cause it has same "step" as Kelvins
@@kosskrit i thought he meant 45 degrees angle in the heat deflection graph
Holy crap Seth, that comparison of the difference between transistor based solid state amps and tube amps being like the difference between traditional spokes and these spokes hit me in the feels. I'm a guitar, pedal and amp modder and builder and it was like you made that comparison just for me lol. I literally just retubed my Marshall DSL100HR yesterday. Just when I thought I couldn't love the channel anymore than I already do you go and talk my language lol.
I love how fast you've been cranking out videos, really keeping me locked in
A couple years ago in the mountaineering world, Petzl rocked the boat a little bit by putting out some crampons that used similar polyethylene cords to connect the front half and back half of the crampon, which dramatically reduced their weight and pack size. Traditionally crampons have a steel or aluminum "connecting bar" so connect the front and back of the crampon, which are the parts that actually snap to your boots. While crampons are made for snow and ice its actually extremely common to walk and climb over rock with crampons on, so I remember a lot of people were skeptical that the crampons would last long, and there wasn't a lot of enthusiasm for them.
flash forward a couple years, and the concept has really taken off! Over time the polyethylene cord proved to be remarkably durable even against sharp rock and even at the tension required to securely hold those crampons on your boots, and they are still extremely light compared to even the best crampons using connecting bars. Other manufacturers are starting to iterate on the idea, and climbers are starting to warm up to them since it really seems like they've stood the test of time. I've even seen guides retrofit the polyethylene cords to aggressive, heavy crampons meant for climbing vertical ice and rock. Polyethylene cord is an incredible material, and while it's easy to be skeptical when you look at it, I'm betting you'll be really surprised by how those spokes last. If there's any reason to object to these wheels, I think its because setup is a pain, not because you doubt the material.
If you want to see what I'm talking about, look up the Petzl Irvis Hybrid Crampon or Petzl Leopard Crampon.
interesting, i got some new petzl crampons a few months ago but don't recall seeing that tech. mine are mountaineering w connecting bars, not ice climbing, where i would think the weight advantage would be more helpful. i'll check out the leopards. 👍🏽
@@gabeah The weight advantage is mainly if you are doing long days on skis and only need the crampons for a while just to summit. They take up less space and weight in your pack
If i remember correctly, these are for light ice walk or just in case crampons (e.g. for ski touring).. i am not sure if it is really recommended for general mountaineering/ ice climbing...
@@joeze9328 The aluminum Leopards are only for snow, the Irvis is much more versatile as it has steel front part.
@@marekholub8668 although still a 10-point crampon and having the alu heel certainly compromises durability for general mountaineering.
Ran into some guys from Lauf earlier this year at a gravel race & they’d been running these spokes for over a year. They spoke ;) very highly of them.
I see what you did there...
I watch your content like this, and even though I don’t ride (bmx) anymore, and haven’t for years, I still enjoy your content, and watch every new video that pops up.
I’ve been running them for a few months on my hardtail and I’m very impressed. The weight on long climbs feels substantial. Sprinting up short punchy stuff also feels incredible. I’m 220 and have hammered them. So far their perfect.
I race XC, Road and CX and I have Berd wheels on all my bikes and I love them! I have had them on my XC bike for a little over a year and they have held up great!!
Alex was my first thought for a dirty hippie as well :)
Interesting concept that we might see on pro XC bikes.
I’ve been running the xc25’s since 2019 and have a set of the 30’s on my other bike. The xc25’s have over a thousand miles are still true. I recently broke a nipple on the 25s but that has been the only issue I’ve had after years. They are wheels that “spoil” you. I’ve ran evne, bontrager , and nox carbon and the berds are all I own now
Always exited when Seth pops up on my recommended, love you Seth!
I guess 90s mountain biking really is coming back LOL. First we got oval chain rings back now we’ve got the modern return of the Tioga disc wheels
Next we'll see the 26" wheel make a comeback in full force.
Did spinergy or Mavic do composite cord spokes about 20 years ago?
@@Dave_the_Dave I definitely remember a floppy spoke around 1999, I think it was Spinergy.
@@Dave_the_Dave Spinergy SPOX
Fiberfix spokes have been around a very long time as well!
Could be interesting to compare the gyroscopic impact of the lighter wheel. Hold the wheel by the axels, give it a good spin, and try to angle it in the air. The lighter wheel should fight back a lot less, which would translate to making the bike easier to rock side to side, do whips, etc.
Well that's pretty much always going to be true for lighter rims. Weight distribution matters too. The further away you are from the axle, the more does the weight matter and here you actually have metal at the end of the spokes.
Also, while lighter wheels have an easier time changing direction, they are also are less stable. In either case it's something that's going to make a minute difference at best for actually perceivable ride characteristics. The biggest difference you're actually going to notice is the compliance.
Me and my son love the channel. We always watch b4 going ride! Keep up the good work! 👍🏽
Always love your videos, and it all ways cheers me up when you post! Have a awesome day😊
have regular boring alloy wheels on my MTB but have been running Berds on my gravel bike for 4 months or so now. i love them. they're lightweight, strong, and feel great. definitely in agreement that the black spokes are probably a better idea for most riders though
I have been running these spokes (and same SS specific hub) on my Atomik hoops for 5000+ miles with zero issues. Just as mentioned in the video, they will reduce the feel of trail chatter make your bike feel smoother!
I've been drooling over those spokes for awhile. A weight weenies dream!
oo nice song choice, the background drums are tapping on my ears! Perfection the haptic is so nice. Thank you.
7:09 Seth probably has PTSD from when he blew up a tire back in the day and splattered sealant all over his shop.😁
I've got close to 2000 miles of trail riding in Utah on mine. I haven't had any need to retighten them and have not had any problems.
black or white spokes? salt cycles is buildign a set for me w Black Berd, but i've seen a couple posts the black wears off.
What a great review. Loved the commentary. ❤
I still remember watching your videos when i still had a bmx, please keep making more content, you're the best Seth! I still remember watching Berm Creek
That tube-amp tone is what I always strive for in a bike.
Berd spokes also have a vid on normal spokes compared to their spike when a stick or debris get in the wheel their spokes flexed and had no issues normal spokes bent and stayed that way and a slow motion vid shows on impact their spokes have the compliance to give a little making harsh things a little nicer so that’s probably what Seth is feeling when he says smoother
Seth I built my own set of wheels with I9 Hydra hubs, WeAreOne Carbon Convert rims (27.5”) laced with the Berd black spokes. I found the build was easier than using steel spokes.
I’ve been running them for several months now on Vancouver’s North shore trails.
So far no issues with them at all. As far as feel, I think they feel like you are riding on a soft cloud. They are awesome at dampening the trail chatter. I find that they are just awesome at giving the extra compliance. I’ve had no issues on big hits. And they silence just lets you focus on your trail line. It is hard to describe the “feel” of them. But they are awesome!
I agree that unless you really want the extra weight savings (it is awesome, they spin up easier), and have extra cash and want the bling, regular carbon/steel spokes almost as good.
Love your videos. Keep ‘em coming!
It is hard to tell in this video, how are they terminated at the hub? It looks like a little knot?
I love how you clean everything, while it’s apart, smart I do the same with anti intake apart and out back together, it’s a good rule of thumb to follow
its going to be interesting to see how they hold up over prolonged periods of time
Prettttty sure Ali Clarkson has that one covered
@@davidstolkacevs871 they not only tested longevity over there but recently build a model to simulate the behavior of both solid and flexible spokes. as i recall, the lateral compliance is what differentiated them...
I’d be worried about creep gradually reducing the tension. Not actually sure if that would affect PE though
Spinergy has been making wheels like this for MTB and sport wheelchairs for a very long time.
I race XC so I probably would trust those wheels but I probably would not prefer them long term for downhill or enduro.
Would they fatigue less than a normal spoke?
proven to be way stronger than regular wheels but still i wouldnt trust them ha
Ali Clarkson rides trials on a string wheelset and he still hasn't seen significantly different stress yet
Ive been running them on my Enduro bike for over two years with absolutely zero issues. Usually in that time I would've broken a couple regular spokes at least.
@@MikeDS49 yes they should (in theory(i dont know theyre whole design but it hats the potential to be very good with fatigue))
I’ve got these on both my all mountain hard tail and my stumpy evo. I’ve got over 700 miles on the set on my stumpy including a trip to Sedona and enduro racing and they’re holding up great. Love the lightweight feel and the dampened ride these wheels give you.
Been a fan since forever on your channel. but now i know for sure that this is the best bike channel ever. You took the weight in KG!!! :D
I’ve been riding Berd Spokes for 2 years. Never had an issue and I have slammed them into some funk. Describing the feel as “warmer” is a great way to put it. I always say they cut out a lot of the noise and quiet down the trail.. in terms of feedback. I feel more connected
> I feel more connected
Probably more tied to!
Don’t get these in black or any dye, it wears off leaving a mix of white and black. Stick to the white and it isn’t hard to clean.
In my opinion these are mainly worthwhile if paired with a very light rim and hub to get to a 1000-1200g XC wheelset (since they’re expensive).
Synthetic fibers don’t dye well in general
I had that exact problem with the black spokes until I heard that you can use a sharpie pro to make them the same color again, so I went out and bought one and sure enough it made them look brand new!
Sub 1000g easily. I've laced up for an XC racer with Extralite hubs, 28 berd spokes (front and rear) and rideberg 30mm wide 29er rims, 451g front 521g rear. It's a huge pain in the ass to build with these damn strings... :D
@@ohne_speed how much did that all cost? Good to compare vs the extralite prebuilt wheelset is 1000g and I think around $3000.
@@evancurl4151 didn’t know about that, good to hear that works
This technology is used for a long time in robotics. They have wrapping connectors made of polymers strings. Very durable, light, reliable, and cheap to fix. They have a filling of a waxed string but they like waxed internally too.
Hilarious video. Love your reviews and honest opinions
They use dyneema for a ton of applications now. Petzl has used it to link toe and heel pieces on mountaineering crampons and the durability is really good. This is just taking a proven technology using it in a new application. The likely weak point is the metal/dyneema interface.
Dyneema is used extensively in sailing and can handle really intense lateral forces. Many boats have replaced all of their stainless steel standing rigging with “soft” rigging. The only real concern is that it changes tension with changing temperatures.
Exactly my thought. The end of the steel "barb" for the nipple should be tapered, but the worse part looks like where the cord goes into the hole in the hub flange. A sharp bend there can be a huge stress riser.
Spinergy did this a few decades ago with their Spox road wheels, using cable spokes. (apparently they still have them for wheelchairs). They were supposed to increase comfort.
@RealSweetKid I'm not sure how many wheels this company is really selling though.
@RealSweetKid We're talking 20 years ago, any US patent would have expired. It also would presumably be for their specific polymer (PBO) and/or the termination, since the general idea of a polymer fiber spoke isn't really non-obvious.
They still use PBO fiber spokes with a colored PE jacket.
I have a set of Spinergy GX gravel wheels on my Monstercross bike (it's a custom ti frameset inspired by the salsa cutthroat, or moots baxter)
Its more like a XC race bike with drop bars the way I have it set up.
And the spinergy wheels ride great, and they have held up to some pretty gnarly use.
Nice amp reference, gotta love that tube sound
As soon as you mentioned knowing some dirty hippies, I thought of Alex. 3 seconds later, you mentioned him by name. Love it!
I wonder what would happen if the chain ever jams behind the cassette. Will it chew up the spokes, or since they're more supple than steel spokes, would there will be less damage?
It might be time to invest in a good dork disc! 😂
@@BermPeakExpress It would keep them from getting greezy anyway!
i think a nice rubber protection should isolate them and fix this
I still use the dork disc
@@johndef5075 You must have bollocks size of a coconut or they are made of titanium to do that
“But kinda the same”
One of your best videos Seth. I am on the struggle bus for these wheels trying to shave weight for my new XC bike with DT Swiss XR 1700 wheel sets. [. ]. this close to buying these
That hub sounds so good 🔥🔥
I did not even know that was possible on a MTB, I thought string spokes were only available on BMX bikes.
Ahh, General Kenobi.
Whatt there's BMX string spokes?! I thought there's only MTB ones, well at least Berd doesnt make spokes as small that they would fit for a BMX.. What company?
Watch ali Clarkson video they build a trials wheel with string spokes
I thought it's only for road bikes
I thought it was
Only
For beach cruisers
On a 29er your metal spokes make up about max 200 gram of the weight per wheel. So the maximum reduction is about 400 gram (meaning no spokes). My guess is the most of the weight reduction comes from the hubs and hoops.
he saw a .63kg reduction in weight. so if you estimate 400grams or .4kg just in spokes. this leaves.23kg as the rim/hub weight reduction. so, no, in fact most of the weight reduction in your example would be from the spokes.
that is substantial weight savings at that. one thing if we went from some dirt cheap wheels but he started out with a good decently light set and still took of .63kg or 1.4lbs . kinda awesome but for the money.. there are better ways to take the weight off hahah. but i guess when you already have the good stuff then these are the icing on the cake right!
@@bretmohler9719 That is true but my example was an extreme where yo u would have no spokes which is quite a bad ride. even for light wheels ;)
@@stormeporm hold my beer..
Polyethylene has a density of 0.86. Steel has a density of 7.85.
Polyethylene will reduce weight by 90% for the same volume.
The down side is that polyethylene loses strength rapidly with heat - above 85C (reachable in the back of a car on a really hot day) you can forget about its tensile strength.
Kevlar is better for this application (with the negative that Kevlar loses strength when wet).
@@allangibson8494 You won't be able to very easily apply density math here because you're comparing a braided rope with a knot in one end and a steel spike on the other, to a solid and almost entirely uniform steel wire.
When something reduces weight by 90% for the same volume, but you increase its volume significantly, might as well just compare the two using scales.
These spokes been around for more than a decade. I have them on my Devinci Cameleon sx xc 2012 model. The wheels with these spokes made by Spinergy. Awesome wheels. They stay true for ever. Great presentation btw.
I was mentally comparing them to the Spinergys. They were a great comfortable ride on the road but the lateral stiffness was horrible. You could feel the flex. I'd wear rear tires out unbelievably fast and I wouldnt trust them in sprints. Completely different need on a mtb I'd think. Perfect for my hardtail. If the price wasnt so ridiculous.
Theres a vid of someone racing another brand with these spokes at Downieville in the all mtn race (xc & dh on the same bike). The dh on both courses is pretty gnarly. The wheels held up fine.
I’ve ridden these for over a year now, they are amazing.
Of course it feels different when you reduce rotating mass by 600 grams.
And this is the most important mass on a bike.
Yup. They lighter wheels do feel great on climbs and they just respond just that little bit quicker when you put the hammer down.
Dying those spokes...I'm thinking you'd need the poly dye intended for synthetic materials for best results
We have a Berd spoke coloring kit available for painting our white spokes :)
Yea the Rit synthetic dye will certainly do it, I’ve used it to dye sheet acrylic pieces for small projects. Might require heat though
I had to rewind when I heard you mention tubes.
An audiophile also! cheers to the finer things in life (:
Your tie-die spoke experiment gave me an idea... I'm going to color the spokes to either side of my valve stem so I can spot it easier.
Bicycles have been around for a looong time. Everything that you could think of to improve performance, in various conditions, has been done, to some degree, before. This is a new material but an old idea. It is hard to reinvent the wheel. The reason "flexible" spokes did not make it to the masses is because they require more maintenance and they have a shorter life span than alternatives. Only through trying new things can we help human propelled transportation evolve in to something better. Keep riding!
Durability does not matter to people with upgraditis who change out their gear every season. They'll get bored of the wheels and need to try something else long before they have a chance to fail from fatigue.
Im kinda curious, yes they might be light but how does it fare well on long distance rides, the durability overtime, etc.
I ride downhill on these and had them on the bike for over a year and had zero issues
They look gross over time. The color faded hella fast on my dyed ones. The white ones get dirty too. They still work though - just don't plan on them looking good haha
@@Leo-ss2gb maybe just get the black version
@@sebastianjost the black is one that faded lmao. They only make white and other colors are dyed on the white.
@@Leo-ss2gb oh, that sucks... Especially given how expensive these are.
I'm surprised! You where spot on. It's most likely mainly the acoustics that make them feel different!
A reference to guitar amplifiers, finally something I understand! xD
When you said it has a "warmer tone," I knew exactly what you meant. I want to try these now!
They look really cool. I'd trust them, nylon cords have surprisingly great tensile strength. I wonder if they're vulnerable to cuts, but it might not be a concern.
Not really fair to compare them to nylon cords. This kind of polymer is more similar to Kevlar in its molecular construction from what inunderstand.
Just avoid the knife garden.
I would think with modern rope technology they'd have the ability to add Kevlar reenforcement into the thread of the spoke to make it extremely durable.
its more durable than kevlar
kevlar would weaken theese spokes
the material used isUHMWPE (company name is Dyneema(used for example in bodyarmour which is lighter than those made of kevlar))
@@harrie205 This is true. It makes you wonder why Berd doesn't do what Spinergy does on their PBO spokes and add an outer sheathing to protect the spokes from UV, minor abrasion, etc.
@@cup_and_cone i think they are protected (the UHMWPE used should be Dynema(in rope form it usually comes with Protection))(just because berds dont advitise UV protection it does not mean there isnt any )(also UV protection(especially in case of polymers(which are almost all degrading under UV(but at significant different rates) does not mean its gone last forever but you can protect it long enough(in case of UHMWPE so long that it can be used for ropes which are all year round outside))(end finally you have to take in account how much UV exposure a Fancy MTB is getting(most of them are not kept outside, normally they are used outside and stored inside)
Also PBO is significantly more deceptable to UV the UHMWPE
Berds is only the Spoke maker i dont think they have capacity in Chemical engineering they design/make the system to use flexible textile spokes with normal Rims and Hubs(designed for Metall Spokes)
@@harrie205 The Berd spokes I've seen did not have any physical sheathing/film on them, you can see fiber frays where the mechanical eye splice loops were made; there's no additional protection beyond whatever the makeup of trade name Dyneema is. If I had to guess, Berd buys 2mm Dyneema on big rolls and hand builds the spokes themselves.
The Spinergy PBO spokes have a physical sheathing of different material over the Zylon fibers underneath, which makes them waterproof, UV resistant, and most importantly creates a barrier for minor abrasion resistance. The Berds don't really have protection for abrasion resistance (which is arguably the biggest weakness of braided UHMWPE).
@@harrie205 im familiar with dyneema. They make slings that are extremely strong... But they don't have any abrasion resistance. I was thinking something more like rope with aramid fibers... So, strong, but also having abrasion resistance.
I haven't watched your videos in ages but my god you got so much more steez now. Very stylish! Must be the rope spokes
Gotta apreciarte the transistor and tube amp comparison for all the audio guys out there. Great vid!
What would happen if one of the strings snap? Would you even feel it, would the rim flex or break? Honestly sounds kinda dangerous.
I feel like it would tangle and potentially stop your wheel
Same thing that happens if a normal spike snaps.. you keep riding.
Or someone cuts it... You could easily damage them by hitting a sharp rock or some plant. They look cool but is still a piece of rope lol.
structure wise its about the same as if a normal spoke breaks but less danger of damage by the broken spoke because its only a few grams of plastic
@@iasha740 the same is true for normal spokes.
I appreciate the tube/transistor amp comparison 😛 now I know exactly what you mean!
As a new fan to this channel (less than a week of binging), Seth has quickly become one of my favorite youtube personalities.
Lol!!🤣 I was saying to myself that I can't believe he just said "I'm not a dirty hippie" and then I really laughed out loud when he called Alex, it was already on my mind! I love both these guys!🙃😂
Interesting video, I used to run Titanium spokes on my bmx, these have me so intrigued
That hub is incredible!!!
‘Ok. Enough arts and crafts!’ Best line. Made me laugh out loud.
Lol, sick burn! Poor Alex 😂
I wouldn't run those spokes, but it's a fantastic demonstration of how powerful "tension" can be in an engineering application. 👍
Happy to see you out there shredding again. Was really concerned that your injury had taken you out of the game and that would have been sad.
I just returned from 3 day bike trip. What I nice video to relax with.
I love the guitar comparison!
Great content and production value
The amp comparison made me hit the subscribe button
I was a bike shop manager / mechanic back in the 90s, and when the The Bon Ton Roulet kicked off,
we'd get to see all sorts of 'different' components being used: Experimental / Production / etc.
I most definitely remember 'flexible spokes' back then. I'd only seen them used on those road-bikes..
Fast forward to today: I'm surprised at the fact they're using polyethylene..
With new tech, they could have gone with something like a carbon-strand / hemp-fiber / kevlar-strand combo
and the things would have been damn near indestructible.
Possibly even heat resistant enough to ride through magma/lava. 🤘😂
I have two wheelsets with these spokes. One is an all mountain carbon wheelset(BERD TR30) for my EVIL Following, another is a 35mm deep gravel wheelset for my 3T Exploro Racemax that I had built by NOBL. They're so amazing and I can't go back to regular spokes. My EVIL is so nimble despite being a 29er and it's so much smoother. My 3T still feels really good but I mostly feel the speed gains because the rims are more aerodynamic and the spokes are better at damping the vibration.
You didn't really touch upon the biggest downside to them. They take 4-5 days to build according to NOBL. This is because when you tighten them, they slacken up, and it has to be left overnight 4-5 times and retensioned and then they will stop loosening up. On the upside, the nipples are external you don't have to take off your tires or rim tape to get in there to fix something. They also stay true WAYYY longer than metal spokes. The guys from WorldWide Cyclery had them for over a year and they rode on them hard, the wheels were still true but BERD and NOBL recommend retensioning them every few months so maybe while the wheels stayed straight, they didn't catch that the spokes were looser.
If you get the wheelsets prebuilt, they're extremely well priced. I got my TR30s for $1600 since I chose to downspec to i9 1/1 hubs from the Hydras since they were out of stock and I wanted to ride ASAP.
This guy's got some balls to ride shoelace-wheels on that trail. Great job!
Of course, I know, it's only tensile strength that counts, so it does not matter if they're wobbling around without tension, but it just looks so wrong.
Had a 2001 version of these on my (made in Santa Cruz, not China) Kestrel 200SCI. They always felt great. I git rid of them after being laughed it during a tune-up some ten years later. The Ksyrium Elites they sold me are amazing, but the old ones added a soft ride and snapped back when you accelerated hard
Interesting stuff Seth 🤩🤘🔥
Seth your bike looks amazing
What I think is cool is that you could get different amounts of tension!! You could buy really stiff strings or really soft ones, or even try soft stiff in the front soft in back and have lots more fine tuning of your bikes feel
Hi friend! good video and thanks for sharing. Happy weekend
My TR25 1350g for the pair. Been riding them for a few months. Really enjoying them.
The demo ride at the end reminds me of one of Jason Cammisa’s Hagerty car reviews, where the end is just raw footage of the car being driven. Honestly nice touch to the end of this video imo
It's crazy how much Seth's production value for the videos has gone up sooo much in the past couple years
I’m glad you had luck with the Crank Brothers wheels so far. I did not have that same luck. Dented the rear pretty bad before a race run. I was indeed running CushCore and had 25 psi.
It makes sense that it feels different. Even if this take the same tension as steel spokes. Polyethylene tends to require less force than steel to stretch. Basically they are less stiff springs than steel, therefore yes, their acoustics are different but also their impact absorption is different.
I have similar spokes in my bike touring kit. Much easier to carry around than metal spokes, and they work!
On dying plastics, you'd need the Rit Synthetic. I dye golf discs and that's a common problem with new dyers. On the feel on the trail, I'd say that the poly spokes aren't transmitting the vibration of the ground and wheels to the frame as much, call it dampening. Like putting wider walled tires on the car.
Using a nylon spoke cushions the ride of the bike less of the vibrations from road surface irregularities are felt.
What most people don't think of is that the main support of the wheel comes from the top spokes. the hub is hanging from the top of the rim.
I love the recurring project farm reference
good analogy with the tube vs transistor comparison. Also, even with a traditional wheel, 600 grams is alot, you'd feel a massive difference just in the rotational weight alone...so I'd think that with the spokes and carbon rim too it likely feels significantly different than your alloy set.