Jacob 5 Zenos' Allegory of The Olive Trees - Horticulturists Perspective
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- čas přidán 13. 04. 2024
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Jake Taylor, a horticulturist who has studied plant genetics, gives us a unique perspective on Zenos' Allegory of the Tame and Wild Olive Trees.
- The Allegory seems to be describing trees that become diseased.
- The process of grafting is explained.
- Why do branches need to be "burned?"
Jake's Website - www.jacobstaylor.com
Jake's CZcams Channel - / @textualawakening
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Thank you so much for having me on the show Greg! It was a ton of fun and I hope to talk with you again soon.
You did awesome and I learned so much from this. It’s no wonder that this allegory was preserved for us
I liked your discussion on quarantine. It also happened when Nephi and those who would follow him separate from his brothers.
Stellar learning time for me today watching the information given. Thank you!
Loved this! Check vs. 18 as why this botanical miracle happened-the wild branches took hold of the moisture of the root-the water source-I see this as Christ as the living water bringing nourishment and life.
What is the brain of a tree? How does it understand how to do shad or does? It seems like there is no central location for thinking like humans so it seems amazing that there is communication between the roots and branches.
Great conversation! Jacob 5 is amazing, there is no way Joseph Smith could just make this stuff up.
The idea of the corruption being a disease was new to me. I knew just enough about olive trees to know that they take a long time to grow; so I was always confused by the burning part of the allegory. But if, as said, there's a disease and this is a quarantine type situation; it makes much more sense.
I loved learning more about this! The horticultural background was great to hear: before I've only heard the basic "grafting is just plant cut and paste!" Type explanations; so getting a bit more in-depth was good.
I also liked the information on the plants' water system, and how it relates to our own concerns about burnout. The imagery of the system tearing itself apart if it gets out of balance was quite vivid.
I loved hearing this discussion, thanks so much!
I like the details about the grafting and pruning from an expert with hands on experience. Helps me understand the allegory in a new way.
This is one of the most informative discussions about the allegory of the Olive Tree that I've ever heard! Every minute or two is an amazing new insight! Thank you!❤
Glad you enjoyed it.
3:23 - Explanation of "tame olive tree" as a cultivated domesticated variety
5:28 - Process of finding and propagating desirable wild olive trees
7:58 - Decay in the tame olive tree and the serious problem of "crown decay"
12:32 - Importance of pruning trees to produce young branches and fruit
14:37 - Grafting wild olive branches to save the dying tame tree
18:19 - Grafting techniques, scion and rootstock, and maintaining grafts over time
23:27 - Bringing in wild branches to revitalize the sick tree as a "quarantine scenario"
26:11 - "Long time" needed for olive trees to mature and the cyclical nature of the allegory
28:27 - Miraculous transformation of wild branches producing tame fruit
32:20 - Failing grafts, corrupt fruit, and the influence of the rootstock
35:45 - Gathering and grafting in natural branches as dispensations of the gospel
38:37 - Grafting failing across the vineyard as scattering of Israel
41:39 - Stable genetics allowing re-grafting of original natural branches
48:15 - Keeping the roots and top of the tree equal to avoid damaging "cavitation"
51:22 - Spiritual parallels of balancing outward works and inward nourishment
52:59 - The trees becoming "one body" through shared genetics of the tame tree
57:42 - Levels of personal and communal symbolism in the allegory
59:07 - Intergenerational wisdom, faith challenges, and staying rooted in the gospel
1:01:14 - The power of the Book of Mormon to cut through the noise
Greg, I have a great idea, at least I think it is! You should prune and work on one tree and leave the other so you and others can see the difference between the tame and worked on olive tree with the wild one. What an amazing object lesson that can actually be seen!
With peach and olive trees, new fruit is found on the new branches and not the old. You have to eliminate the old to make room for the new.
Always been curious about this sort of perspective. Excited for this. Thanks for the great content Greg!
Years ago I remember when Gladys Knight joined the church. She counseled with President Hinckley and told him she loved the church and its teaching but the music needed some work! He told her that during Sacrament meetings we had reverent music. However, he encouraged her to come up with a program of different types of spiritual music. She toured with lots of different talented musicians and it did create a new enthusiasm in the Lord’s Church.
I look forward to seeing and singing from the new hymnal. I am excited to see new flavors and cultural uplifting music. Thank you so much for this invigorating and mind expanding talk. I will be using these ideas often.❤
Many thanks for this remarkable man who has taught us many things about the Olive Tree and how it pertains to people staying strong in Gospel in hard times. As well as being patient with our testimonies, hold on tight, the Lord & His Gospel will always be there for us. We need to focus on Christ to see us through these evil hard times.
I enjoyed hearing this additional insight. I want reread Jacob 5 and rewatch this episode. Thanks to both of you.
Excellent
that was GREAT!!!!!
Wonderful interview! Thank you both for opening my eyes.
Amazing! God and His plan and works are fabulous.
Great insights. The Book of Mormon is true and I came to know God on a very personal level through it and gained a love for the Bible from it.
Wow this is amazing. What to me is a much simpliar logical way at looking at this. Sure gives me a greater understanding and a simplier way of explaining this to others im sharing the gospel. Thank you so much for thus beautiful interview. Actually i can apply this in many scenarios of our dying wotld of people today. Thank you thankyou! O know our Saviir eill bless you greatly for sharing your wusdom with all.
Great episode! The mentioning of wild branches being grafted into tame and bringing tame fruit was fascinating to me. I have always understood it as a metaphor for the miracle of conversion--gentile becoming an Israelite. One Greek manual on horticulture said, however, it was possible, but rare, and was viewed as a "divine sign." Divine!
This is the best!
When you were talking about the wildness around verse 9-10 I thought, Joseph Smith (paraphrasing I think) "In the proving of contraries is truth made manifest." In this case maybe is the tame is lost in omission, and the wild lost in commission, both need to listen to the master of the vineyard to grow in a healthy way.
excellent
Thank you!
Around the 35-minute mark, there was a discussion about disruption. Some businesses actually have creative disruption. Intended by management.
But how many of us are holding onto places, ways, or understandings that prevent our growth to the next level? If you look at a sermon by Joseph Smith on 27 August 1843, he speaks of Angels not being able to understand because they "in setting up stakes and not coming up to the mark in their probationary state." We need to be willing to move to another place or eliminate stakes to move on to exaltation.
Great episode! One meaningful interpretation of Jacob 5 is of Gethsemane, where the Lord is constantly running around fixing things with many of the same pieces between the vineyard and the garden: olive trees, a laboring Lord, fixing corrupt things, and a Lord who finally calls that work done
Wow, I didn't know Joseph Smith was a horticulture expert too... 😉
Ok. I’m sure you know the scriptures below. I personally don’t want to take the things lightly that the Lord has given me. I’m gettin’ older…a senior citizen now, I want to remember the lessons and scriptures (lessons, life lessons) I’ve learned. I also pray I remember those things which the Lord has commanded us to do and have his divine protection. I believe He knows the intentions of my heart and mind and spirit. Sometimes he answers quickly and other times not so quick. As I’m getting older they, my prayers, NEED to be a little faster in the answers. Probably many people feel this way. I hope to help those in need especially seemingly lost family members and friends. The desire of my heart is to not have myself or family or for that matter anyone who hopes to be removed from condemnation and return to the true gospel of Jesus Christ to be able to do so. So we have been commanded to study and then practice these things:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received-
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written-
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
Can your guest explain why a group of olive trees are called a vineyard instead of a grove like other trees?
Who is the servant in Jacob 5? Is Jacob 5 talking about the LDS church, specifically after verse 48, and on?
12:19 the “main top” could refer to leadership or the older generation who had faith, the younger not having that same faith
About 30:00 you begin speaking of WILDNESS being introduced to invigorate the tree. This speaks volumes about the duality of male and female in God's plan.
The Church is being overrun with wildness right now, as you have pointed out in almost every video.
Wildness is the feminine aspect of God, or Mother, as can be defined.
This concept of Chaos and Order has to be deeply pondered and prayed about and why your, Greg, are helping us become aware of it.
What a great video, and explanation of Jacob's Allegory of Tame and wild olive tree. I don't know if you have seen the Book of Mormon video of Jacob chapter 5, czcams.com/video/bFkoueDsV4M/video.htmlsi=jWjFW9ll4L5Wp8Tl which I think was a great video. Thank you for what you are doing to help others stay close to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We all need to watch and pray so that we don't fall into Satan's traps, and we need to continue to pray and have faith that we have God on our side to help us through our struggles in life. I know that as I exercise faith in Jesus Christ and truly repent I will be able to make it through life's challenges.
This is biblical and might suggest Joseph Smith added it in from his family bible.
Haha. C'mon. this is not in the Bible.
@@CwicShow I'm just a former mormon here making some fun. I like your content. Appreciate your work
Is it possibly to do this with peoples DNA?
Yes. Through generations and intermarriage.
Jacob was born in the wilderness and had no exposure to horticulture practices. There were no olive trees nor horticulture in mesoamerica when Jacob lived there. This allegory is anachronistic and an amalgamation of biblical horticulture alegories. It isn't even a consistent alegory and is quite repetitive, which is inefficient considering it was written on "small plates" where there wasn't supposed to be much room for verbose writing.
You've forgotten too much. Jacob didn't write it, Zenos from the Northern Kindom of Israel did. Nice try though. And using the regurgitated "anachronistic" insert - really?
Vineyard is noted 90 times in this one chapter... guess how many times the word orchard or Grove is noted? This horticultural expert uses the word orchard again and again. I have done the same thing for years! Every other time I read this.
The Lord is the lord of the vineyard. Grapes is his fruit of scale. It's 99 percent of his fruit.
Olives are from a tree, not a vine!
There are sometimes olive trees planted in a VINEYARD even today. They are extras they add a few olive trees in the VINEYARD which really do represent the house of isreal. Which is very small by numbers. Not grapes. Olives in the midst of a VINEYARD!! 🤯
I'm 7 minutes in and I am seriously doubting this fellow knows what he's talking about. When you find a wild cultivar of desirable fruit to propagate, it would be extremely rare to uproot it and take it to your "farm" (in actuality, an orchard, not a farm). It is extremely difficult to transplant a mature fruit tree of bearing age, and most likely will result in death. No, you take scions of it in the dormant season to graft onto rootstock at your orchard. Not once have I ever thought of trying to transplant a mature fruit tree I want to grow. However, many times I have gone and taken scions from wild trees to put onto rootstock.
Furthermore, the idea he was talking about at the beginning about this being a disease scenario is the totally wrong framework. This isn't about a disease scenario at all. It's about different cultivars and their various value, with the added imagination into allegory that cultivars can change over time (which does not happen).
8:40 " you really need young branches to produce fruit". Sure, if you're dealing with peaches. They fruit on 1 year old wood. However most fruit trees fruit on older wood, and may fruit from the same spurs for years in a row.
Pruing is not about stressing the tree. It's about renewal pruning when necessary, keeping the tree under size/shape control, removing disease, and stimulating new growth.
17:18. 😂 Oh if to were only that easy! If you don't time it exactly right for some types (apricot, plum, peach being rather finicky), which is different for each type of fruit tree, you will get more failures than successes. I question if he's ever actually grafted a fruit tree. He understands the fact that you have to match up the cambium layers, but it doesn't sound like he's ever actually done it.
34:00 You almost had it mentioning vigor, but then went on a postmodern radical idea (ironically immediately after teasing Greg about a postmodern thought) of introducing "wildness" to the gospel. That's rediculous. Sticking to the horticultural tact it's about introducing vigor and precocity. One interpretation/(of several I can think of) is the vigor that converts who are "grafted in" bring to living the gospel. Generally those that graft in solidly and merge with the root perform much more strongly (e.g. Paul, Alma, Zeezrom, etc). Much as President Benson spoke of many times. But "wildness" to the gospel??? That would be one of the problems noted in the allegory - that of the wild branches overcomimg the established good root that is desirable, and thereby corrupting it. So backwards!
Edit to add: one thing the guest should be quite familiar with in his academic work is the effect of rootstock selection. Especially in apples where there has been significant work in developing various rootstocks. It highlights why preservimg the olive rootstock is so desirable. The rootstock controls almost all of the vigor and precocity of the whole tree, as well as the overall size of the tree. Many will have heard of "dwarf apple tree". That overall tree size is driven solely by the rootstock regardless of the scion grafted. I could put any apple cultivar on a Bud 9 rootstock, and get a very dwarf apple tree. Or, put those very same cultivars on and Antonovka rootstock and the same cultivars would be a full size 30+ foot tree. It's about the rootstock controlling/influencing the cultivar, not the cultivar influencing the rootstock. So, the idea of introducing "wildness" to the root doesn't even work in a literal sense, let alone it's contrary to pretty much everything stated in scripture, or latter day leaders/general conference.
You completely missed the whole point of this discussion. This isn't a horticultural lesson. The disease is in the church so yes it is about disease. It is an allegory! My garden center has sold trees with small fruit on them. I'm just a layperson but I have dug up trees and transplanted them. And, I prune my trees because the fruit comes on the new branches. I live in the suburbs and only have a quarter acre. I have apple, peach, a sour cherry and 2 other cherries. I guess those trees didn't know what they were doing by producing for me. Neither did the trees in other homes I have owned. Focus on the lesson God, Zenos and Jacob were providing for us and be blessed.
@@reppi8742 Those small trees you refer to with fruit are root bound and abnormally constrained (which stresses them, and causes premature fruiting to reproduce before they die from the stress of root binding in a pot!). Completely inapplicable to identifing new wild cultivars to bring to one's orchard and prove out. I've transplanted MANY field trees. Transplanting a mature fruiting tree without heavy equipment is extremely difficult and not always successful. I've moved 3 year old trees that still have not fruited and they couldn't withstand the stress and died a year or two later. You are dealing with an artifical situation of a pot controlling the root spread. Completely inapplicable in relation to his absurd comment about moving a fruiting tree to one's "farm" when in actuality, for many various reasons, one would get a scion in winter to save a particular cultivar.
SOME trees fruit on new wood. Peaches being a prime example. Yet others, even other stone fruits, fruit on older wood. So, don't come on here claiming fruit trees produce on new wood. Your gross ignorance is showing by trying to talk about something you are not familiar with. No wonder you agree with this academic that clearly has no relevant field experience with grafting! You know enough to think you know something to comment, but don't know enough to know how much you are ignorant of. Your apples may have produced despite your efforts to force it to on new wood, but I'm not aware of one single cultivar that produces on first year wood. But, what would I know? I only have 40 or so varieties of apple (most of which I grafted myself).
The issue is when someone like this guest comes on here claiming to know far more than he does, it leads most of the unaware listeners to be diverted from the very lessons Jacob/Zenos meant to share! Like the silly idea that grafting in wild branches is to bring "wildness into the gospel"! Lol. It shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of rootstock control, and the gospel, as to be enough alone to call everything he shares into question. And, there is LOTS factually wrong with so much of what he shares. Jacob/Zenos made clear the value of the rootstock in controlling the tree. And that part fits very well with actual practice (other parts of the allegory necessarily taking some license to make a point). Failing to know that most basic part of fruit tree horticulture, the guest prevents listeners from actually seeing or learning the actual lessons. So, you think I should just focus on the lesson. That's precisely what I'm trying to do! And dispel the misinformation being spread by a so-called expert that leads people directly away from your stated ideal goal.
GMO. No thanks.