Sakuu's Dry-Printed Li-metal Batteries Hit 1,000 Cycles
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- Sandy and the Munro Live Crew Visit Sakuu for an Update on Their Fully Dry Manufacturing Process, Featuring an Interview with Arwed Niestroj, SVP of E-Mobility and Product.
www.sakuu.com/
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#sakuu #evbatteries - Auta a dopravní prostředky
thanks for the site visit, Munro and Associates
Thank you Sandy for sharing this. It proves that battery technology is constantly moving ahead. No huge 10X breakthrough, just 10% here plus 40% there. It all adds up.
Thanks to munro live great Informative video. Look at that smile on sandy face when it was his turn 😂😂 says it all
"And for our next act, Sandy on a Sakuu unicycle"! Love this episode, LOVE this channel
LOL get this clown show going!
I was literally thinking the same thing about electric unicycles
I loved this content. As a kaizen practitioner, my eyes light up when I see productions processes like this. Thanks for sharing this.
@@carvalhoribeiro Did you see a different video? They are not showing or telling anything about their (non existing? 🤔) production processes.
It's an R&D lab at this stage, but if it's indeed that good, they can make a ton of money licensing the technology to big battery makers like Panasonic or Tesla.
Maybe I missed it, but did they ever state the energy density in watt hours per kilo?
I know they said their battery in the bike has 40% more range than a competitor battery, but that doesn't really mean much, without knowing which cells are in the competitor battery. And how do we know their 2.3 Kwh battery isn't slightly larger or heavier.
I'm always a bit suspicious when companies use round about ways of explaining things like capacity and power density, rather than just giving us the numbers in watt hours per kilo or watts per kilo for power.
I understand your skepticism, since I have developed electric vehicles at Mercedes for many years. Improvement in the SakuMoto bike is from 1.75 kWh with Li ion cells to 2.3 kWh with our Lithium metal cells in the same packaging space, of course. We optimized for Watt hours per liter, since it is more relevant for most product packaging (except for anything that flies). Our Li metal cells achieve more than 800 Wh/l energy density and is commercially ready.
354 wh/kg
A link to the Datasheet on these batteries is what Iwant to see! Same goes for your metal free battery!
The way they get dry coating consistent I believe is by putting a charge into the coating material because light charges repel therefore they won't clump and if it's consistent charge on it in the pre-processing each piece of carbon will push away from each other in a nano scale😊 It's just the same concept as when long hair from the head if it has a static charge on it as like charges repel.
Every day, the new tech is getting better and will continue to evolve into products that we can enjoy. Nice video of the behind the scenes to our future.
It's snake oil designed to pull wool over investor's eyes, there has been countless "battery breakthroughs" over the years and so far we're stuck on the same exact thing because it outperforms everything else.
And oil rich Arab countries will be selling less and less as the years go by. A Win-Win! lol
Thanks 4 video!
Sandy listening to another presentation.
there are people who understand and care.
@@danharold3087 The problem is that Sandy isn't one of them and he never brings his experts to these trips. They could be telling him anything and he would believe it.
@@w0ttheh3ll What specific questions would you like to have seen answered?
I was talking about the audience understanding and caring about EV batteries..
The narrative would have been about the same with or w/o sandy. This is their sales pitch.
@@danharold3087 The sales pitch was fine, actually. It just would create a lot more confidence if I knew that it was pitched to a person that actually has a battery background.
@@danharold3087 What is their value proposition? With any new "replacement" product (I hate the word disruptive), it it BFS -- bigger, faster stronger? Or in their case lighter/smaller, faster stronger and less expensive?
I’ve heard so many stories about these amazing 1000+ cycle batteries. The only thing that came out is LFP mass production wise. Remember when grapheme was supposed to be a revolutionary battery technology, well there nothing with graphene hitting the market now.
1000 cycles @ 1/3C is - not enough. Did you see the breakdown @ 8C to 40%? Unacceptable.
It's all snake oil, wool to pull over investors eyes. Countless "breakthroughs" and so far we're still using the same technology because it outperforms everything else.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 No because it isn't that simple and the graph you're referring to was showing the conventional process. Who knows what can be believed but based on this alone there's nothing obviously wrong with it.
@@JJFX- I know. That is why this cell is unacceptable. Even a cheap li ion cell can make 5000 cycles @ 1/3 C
@@wolfgangpreier9160 This should be indicating a 1/3 charge, 1C discharge. Nothing amazing but many cheap li-on cells would absolutely struggle retaining 80% after 5000 100% 1C discharges cycles. It doesn't really matter though because their data is suspiciously vague. They don't specify the temp or the cathode, which I'm assuming is NMC based on more vague info I dug up. That would also help to improve cycle life and density.
We can give them the benefit of the doubt and make assumptions but whenever a company in this industry constantly throws out buzzwords and is this vague with their data the red flags come up for me.
Great! Hopefully these processes will make it into mass production. His comments about working with battery OEM’s and licensing tells you where their company is positioned. A 40% increase in energy density would be a giant step forward.
how about the fast charging? how about the silicon anode?
A great way to introduce new chemistry.
CATL the world largest battery company has announced in April 2024, will last 1,000,000 miles, a maximum of 5% degradation, with 15 year warranty.
15 year warranty would shut up a lot of anti EV people that keep repeating you have to buy a new battery every 5 years
Just checked for announcements from CATL. They have a Tianxing battery that has less than half the wh/l with an 8 year warranty with 800,000 km lifespan. What’s the battery you are referring to called? If they have a battery with the specs you listed, that’s a huge jump from their recent announcement.
@@Somethingaboutthat I will link it here: www.webpronews.com/catl-unveils-revolutionary-million-mile-battery-transforming-electric-vehicle-landscape/
Wonderful Show Love It!
Nice video. Is like the Maxwell Technology which they start with all this dry electrode process for the supercapacitors. Which instead of a solvent they uses heat. The electrode active material is made from active material and a binder which melts on some temperature.
Go Sandy, I was hoping you'd try to buy a bike ! Honest real inspiration in your programs. I owe you my fullest gratitude. Sincerely Jim.
Incredible 😍
Pretty amazing!🇨🇦
In the end it comes down to the price, hopefully it can compete.
Material cost should be lower. No solvents. Energy cost will be lower. No drying.
Unless there is some extremely expensive machinery that wears out quickly I don't see how the price wouldn't be good. If they are as good as they say, watch for the company to get bought by a major battery manufacturer.
The big issue will be whether it will scale. Tesla did fine with their 4680 dry-rolled cells at low production levels but they've struggled to produce at large scale.
@@bobwallace9753 Yes, it is more cost-efficient without surprises on the equipment cost.
Nice insights 😀
Good update
Keeps calling it the dry process, solid state I'm assuming?
Cheers
Dry printing process enables to print dry layers for all dry (=solid state) batteries without solvent damaging some solid state materials like sulfide electrolyte. We are enabling scalable, fast, cost efficient manufacturing of our customers' solid state materials.
@@arwedniestroj3330 Arwed have you been approached by Tesla or the major battery manufacturers??
Looks to me like a modified laser print process🤔(reminds me of the smudge laden paper with toner when fuser stopped working).
Wonder, why they did not do a wheelie in the demo?(cooling issues with battery pack🤔). Look forward to the day, where bottles of "dry powder" with carrier film, loaded into a laserjet formfactor printer, printing custom batteries. Now add to that, 3d printed custom pcb, and enclosure to make products with interesting form and function🤯❤️👍
Andy ur the man!
I've worked on machines that have deposited precise, uniform layers of powder onto a surface for 45 years.
Photocopiers (Latterly "Laserprinters")
Those aren't precise or uniform enough. At the microscopic level.... Laser printers are absolute chaos.
@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 Yes, it's just a rough powder coating hot press.
Try to apply the laser printing technology to active battery materials, achieve required uniformity, density and maintain electrochemical performance in a battery. When you have all of it, you are welcome to join the team at Sakuu.
Ok but how does the time to produce scale with the new process? Does it take longer to produce a single cell? Does the lower footprint of the process allow for an equalization of speed of production to square footage of space? There are always pro’s and con’s
Total cost of ownership of the dry printing platform is lower for the manufacturer. Including Capex and Opex.
Great!
The chart at 13:10 is very interesting. The dip at ~625 cycles shows us that these cells have significant degradation that leads to much worse performance under high loads, yet under standard cycling conditions they achieve over 95% capacity retention.
This is a good example of why car manufacturers' "80% capacity after x miles driven" guarantees are useless and dishonest. Capacity retention (SOH) of electric cars is not the right metric for such a guarantee.
🙋♂️ THANKS SANDY,ARWED, AND THE MUNRO TEAM FOR SHARING THIS 🤗 ENJOYED AND LEARNED ALOT 🧐💚💚💚
LabVIEW to the rescue!!!! 👌🏾
Try Inversion table for your back
I would love it if these battery ... videos explained temperature operating specs very important for Northern climates
if this brings down cost for E/bike batterys and no more exploding fires yes . ill buy that
IS going from 80% to 20%and back to 80% considered one cycle?
No, thats 60% of a full cycle.
Well in an interview if you keep it within that range the battery will last forever....
We need that nickel boysssss
Cool! I need a battery like that for Poco F3
Fantastic!
Best wishes! ❤
I will invest, if possible.
at 12:10 guys are saying that nobody did more than 1100 cycles with Li anode without the dendrites. I personally saw at The Batteries, that their batteries with Li anode work for more than 23 000 cycles with 100% DoD.
Not certain what I was supposed to learn from this other than their battery anode/cathode dry process versus wet process which seems to be a big improvement. However, until it undergoes real world applications I’m not going to be too excited.
It's a big production
How long does it take to make a small cell? How much does the cell cost? What is the energy density? What is the volumetric density? What is the largest cell capacity? How does it perform at high / low temperatures? Is Ro-Ro in the plans and when? Zero info ! These and many more pertinent questions were never discussed. Another "seeking Investors and Customers", low info video from Sandy.
"Show and Tell" means exactly that. This is almost all "Tell" and blather and repeat with very little "Show", and much of that is looking at 4 graphs. Information content is less than 2 minutes. Pitiful.
They can only show as Sandy mentioned at the end of the presentation what is allowed by Sakuu and its clients for public distribution.
You would need to sign the NDA and enter a contract to have your battery production process upgraded to their dry process if you want to see the confidential parts now. Of course afterwards you would be bound by the NDA to keep the confidential information confidential along with open to paying punitive damages if you violated the NDA.
Sandy honored the NDA and didn't leak any trade secrets which helps insure he and by extension we will be invited back when more information is ready to be released publicly.
Sandy did reveal that what he saw and he can't talk about publicly was impressive which is all we really need to know at this time so look forward to the next visit where we will learn what other advancements and details will be made publicly available at that future date. Kudos to Sandy for maintaining his high ethics concerning confidential information and trade secrets.
Best!
@@neilfromclearwaterfl81 So there is no reason to make this video about nothing but a very few general, specious clams!
@@shazam6274 And have a highly respected and universally recognized industry expert verify them and confirm there is much more to come in the future though they can't openly reveal all the details to the public now.
That they showed the final product in application along with revealed the physical product without disclosing the trade secrets is enough for now.
Xerox learned the hard way why you don't give away the full list of ingredients and specifications for the secret sauce. If they hadn't revealed so much to Steve Jobs most of what we know as Apple might still say Xerox on it. Nobody wants to repeat Xerox's mistake of giving years of hard work all away.
Best!
It can still hold more then 80% of charge after 1100 cycles....
We will see if it catches on....
They might have something here
Motorcycle was a good touch
With the average ev driving range over 270 miles now? That means the pack's are good for close to 300,000+miles while retaining over 84% net capacity. Get these in production stat sakuu!
China already has in production semi solid state cells averaging over 40% better energy density at the pack levels vs the current best nmc ev pack chemistries. And they just formed a massive jv between the largest ev cell players to make solid state cells in mass by 2027!
@@4literv6 What's the cost benefit ratio?
@@4literv6 This is dry coating, not SSB. The electrolyte is liquid.
Looks like they are making / using a printer toner manufacturing process very interesting
After it degrades to under 90% SOH, can it be cycled to bring that back up or be periodically cycled to keep it higher (are they already doing this?)?
What electrolyte are you using in the dry process battery?
The dry processed electrodes work with the same electrolyte as the wet coated ones do. No change in electrochemistry caused by the dry process. That makes the dry process applicable to many if not all chemistries.
2.7 KWHr in the motorbike isn't a large battery, but the potential is there for a larger one, if cooling is properly addressed in the battery pack.
The bike is a test bed
That Sakuu bike looked so good.
Should check out some of the other bikes Walt Seigel has built. The man is an artist.
Are there any projections on volume manufacturing: haw many GW hours for how long to produce? This is the piece of information that is not provided, but it's of crucial importance to understand the potential of this technology.
Also, are they going to "print " it in standard sizes (4680 etc) or pouch forms or something else?
Thanks
I want to know more about the conductive polymers
I'm unclear on how the chinstraps work. - I'm curious about heat transfer. Isn't part of the 4680 metal cylinder's purpose to pull heat away from the core to move it to cooling channels? Awesome to lose the weight but what picks up the function? When charging and discharging at a multiple C factor (ie:6C or 10C) you get a large temperature delta - logical from the chemistry. What's the story here?
Doesn’t the solvent recovery mean you can reuse it in the next batch of batteries?
They should team up with Polaris. Polaris has something special started. Hopefully, they don't give up like the car OEMs...
What is Polaris cooking?
@@freddybell8328 watch the out of spec episode on electric Polaris trails with free solar charging
Dude this guy sounds exactly like my Indian neighbor it’s crazy I love that dude
Battery Vehicles, BV, parked 23hrs every day and 20million in Australia means every building can be offgrid.
BV oversized battery, oversized for that daily drive, has massive reserves of daily storage for rooftop PV.
BV parking space with a $60 wall outlet at every building and trickle currents all day long and night is ezi pezi.
Grid cash flow will be a dead duck.
Dirt cheap offgrid will save:
Grid electricity costs
Heating costs
Gas costs
Petroleum costs
After tax savings.
Grid electricity is 10times more expensive than offgrid electricity.
Clowns are saying like "battery production is expensive", "It costs more for the enviroment to produce than petrol" and all that gig. The days are numbered until those statements holding true.
My first and only question is "What was Tesla's response when you offered this technology to them?
My guess is that they said this is all well and good but it will not scale to the level we require. Essentially "laser printing" batteries would be too slow to produce at high volumes.
@@DC-yh2oy And 1000 cycles @ 1/3 is by far not good enough.
Tesla already has a 'dry' process to make batteries, that's what they announced on their 'battery day' a few years ago and what's going into their current cars. Rather then printing they run the stuff through a roller press. (sounds simple but apparently took them multiple years longer then they expected to get it working)
@@takanara7 "and what's going into their current cars." In the Cybertruck. Nowhere else.
@@takanara7 They only do the cathode, not the anode. They buy the anode material from suppliers in China and Japan.
are not Li metal batteries normally primary, non-rechargeable batteries?
It seems to be the case, but not these… there are apparently others doing something similar:
“Researchers from the Harvard John A. Paulson School of Engineering and Applied Sciences (SEAS) have developed a new lithium metal battery that can be charged and discharged at least 6,000 times…”
You can search for it, 2024 release.
@@DavidHalko Thanks
those who control the spice control the universe....
22:50 WHAT DID HE *SAYYYYY*
So many reference to 'print' & 'printing'. They must be using electrostatics. Photocopiers transfer toner encapsulated in a polymer. Could these guys have figured out how to encapsulate anode/cathode material in silicon?
There are lots of trade secrets in it. No use of additional material.
I was thinking a silkscreen type of process. But I would think there would have to be a solvent based suspension to apply an even layer.
@@peterjohnwatson4340 that is the innovation, we print even layers without a solvent suspension, without electrostatics
So what is the range of that e-bike? He avoided saying what it is. With 2.3 kWh it's likely to be about 20 miles/ 30 kilometres or greater, if the weight can be kept down with that higher density battery. It will be interesting to replace the battery in a known bike, such as a Zero, to see how it compares with the same battery volume.
And thanks for the video. 🙂👍
Since its an overpowered test bed Moped and not the street version the current range of that test mule would not reflect anything meaningful so would be moot however you could look at any current e-bike/moped with its typical 40 to 80 mile range and multiply that by 40% so 56 to 112 miles of range just by switching to their battery technology and slapping it into current production. Of course with e-bike and mopeds range will vary greatly depending on the rider and terrain. The difference in range between having a 150 lb rider and 250 lb rider will be much greater on a 100 to 200 lb e-bike than on a 4,000+ lb EV Car/SUV.
The implications for Electric Powered Aviation are also there.
Yes nice to have video with a taste of what's in the near future. I can understand Sandy's excitement since these promises are for advancements that we will likely see in our (us older ones) lifetimes and not 100 years or so in the future.
Best!
The guy interviewing, he's obviously not prepared at all
cool
Also lower fire risk in no solvents.
So powder coating?
Printing a layer that becomes a coating of the current collector... ;-)
Now I get it, Sandy Munro is Burt Munro’s son!!!
Burt was a Kiwi , Sandy is from Canada … Grandson by age is possible but no relation sorry …. He never Married or had Children …
What about Amprius with their SiCore and SiMax silicon anode batteries?
We have done multiple videos on Amprius.
@@MunroLive
I will check them out!!! Thank you for the reply!!!!
I thought I was all alone on seeing their tech!
I so hope Tesla gives this a good long look and see if it fits their needs and goals.
The next big change for battery usage will be aircraft.
Their new non-metal moldable battery could be the way.
Dry performance charts 13:55
LFP batteries are at 3,000 to 10,000 cycles.
The guy being interviewed, probably with decades of research , he's pretty vane
12:55 Wet performance charts.
QuantumScap flopped (never make it to manufacturing).
Amprius tanked.
Sakuu won’t be mass produced anything soon, would it?
12:21 - "Licensing".
But China is not bound by those licenses. They only need to learn the process once and then they'll flood the world with their batteries again, driving all the competition who abides by the licenses from the market.
And then their cars get blocked from being sold.
aeee I think an electric bike is pretty close to most the same as rest the other electric bikes the main thing about the program and show is the battery technology .
No range number given. Please someone get that info.
Cycle life is full cycle.
10% cycle per day over 10 days is 1 full cycle.
1,000 cycles could be 10,000 days.
Why would you think C footprint and the rest are not important parameters going forward?
They are, but when the production process needs so much more time and money and the result is 3 times less efficient than the old style processes are more profitable the new processes make no sense. The same goes for the sodium ion cell. Currently it makes no sense to produce them.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 I get your point about change costing money in the short term but the battery biz is a big world with room for improvements. I think a way around the present solvent based processes and all the expense and hazards of that has a sizeable payback. When is a legit question, we'll see..
@@ronfarnsworth7074 Everything man made has room for improvements. And sometimes a real break through occurs and something really new evolves.
Dry printed or coated cathodes is NOT one of those. As always they are in the phase of 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration. Maybe they deliver better or at least as good as cells with less carbon footprint. But it will not be a earth shattering disruption.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 Tesla switched to a dry process. This process might be more expensive then what tesla is doing but it's probably cheaper then the old method. Also, it sounds like a company could do a small run of batteries made this way. It's probably more efficient then the old method.
@@takanara7 "but it's probably cheaper then the old method. " If that would be the case those cells would have already been released to the market and they would very loudly talk about it.
Tesla did not "switch". They bought the process from Maxwell and try to make it work profitably.
Which - as Elon himself has stated - does not work as expected. He gave the team until the end of the year to make it work otherwise the production lines will be shut down and scrapped altogether,
Tesla said send them a sample so they can lab test it.
The planned merger between Sakuu Corporation and Plum Acquisition Corp. I did not occur as initially expected. Consequently, Sakuu did not become a publicly traded company under the ticker symbol "SAKU" as previously intended.
Sandy grins and thinks "What could possibly go wrong"
I thought batteries already do 1500 cycles?
Not a dry process.
Concept is to simplify and possibly speed up the manufacturing process. Would also make it likely safer for people working in the manufacturing plant as dangerous evaporating solvents would be removed from the manufacturing process. So fewer chemicals in the environment to destroy people's health.
most vehicles are parked 23hrs every day.
Most days the battery is "oversized" for the daily drive, and has massive reserve capacity.
Most daily drives can be trickle topped up with trickle currents all day long.
Horse meat was cheap when the Ford model T production line started.
Horse and cart thinking is for the silly 😜 people.
Every building carpark space will have a $60 wall plug for trickle currents all day long.
Only retired folks keep their vehicles parked most of the day.
@tonyc223 avg mileage is 10,000 miles a year.
8,760 hours a year.
That's only 1.1 miles every hour, or 27 miles, if driven for one hour every day.
Yes, it is surprising that many many vehicles do so little distances daily.
On avg.
Sakuúuuuuuuuuuu....
Elon Musk said for the CyberTruck: the future is here.
I think we can sas now that "the future is here"
40% more distance while the CO2 emission is halved, and it is cheaper too? It is called Market Distruption.
I see only two electric cars in the front of Sakuu headquater.😬 Do Sakuu employees really believe that EV is the future?😮
EV is the future when it finally works and is cheap.
I was waiting for a deeper detail of the technology. How do they apply the material to the Anode? This technology will be obsolete in the very near future. 🤦♀ There's nothing extraordinary there. They don't know how to control silicon expansion. That's all. 🤷♀
Printing it with a dry process is extraordinary.
@@DavidHalko I think that the word PRINTING means something else. there is no seal there. Printing is too long. They are simply creating a bubble - that this is a breakthrough technology.
Photocopiers….electrostatic powder distribution
Not uniform enough. And i guess electrostatic cathode materiel might be not the best idea.
Does it instantly turn into a whooshing flamethrower when damaged?
No it makes kaboing. Its a korean factory and makes korean sounds.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 Lol, but seriously though we need safer batteries.
@@wolfgangpreier9160- it’s a fair question
Inhibiting dendrite growth reduces spontaneous combustion.
If you puncture the battery with a drill press or whack it a a few times with pick axe, how does it respond?
@@changeagent228 Lol but seriously we need safer baby strollers, fridges, microwave ovens, vaccuums, ships, planes, cars. etc. pp.
Why does everybody reduce it to unsafe batteries?
@@DavidHalko Everybody seems to KNOW that batteries burn and explode ALL THE TIME.
Could you please show me one that has been handled as designed and intended has exploded or burnt on itself?
I ususally do not whack my dogs with an axe. Or my fridge with a sledge hammer.
I usually use my batteries as they are designed to be used.
It is simply NOT possible to make everything safe.
You can only stack 1.7 KWH of energy in a bike like that.
Huh.
Is this company publicly traded? If so, what is the symbol?
This is a commercial for the spac that’s coming
Don’t care about carbon footprint. Safety, cost calendar life and cycle life is what I’m after
electric bike more impressive due to exterior, e-bikes don't need to retain the bare structural look. printing batteries feels like a desktop printer nice at everythign except speed or volume. The low volumes could work with high tariffs of Chinese batteries but why fight it when it's clearly no match, like how manufacturing of plenty products are done in China than locally.
Brain drain of Germany: He left Mercedes after wasting time with fuel cells and N2. Finally better batteries. About time.
Additive manufacturing is notoriously slow, not for making thousands of pieces a day! That means, this will not end up being used in the Automotive World, because it won’t scale unless someone figures out how to mass produce 3 D Printing at a low cost!
I like the chin masks, do they keep the chin safe?
It’s a clean room. Looks like a class 1000
Sandy, buckle up the helmet.