Deep Dive Into Tesla's 48-Volt Architecture - Caresoft Teardown
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- Automotive engineers have wanted to switch from a 12-volt electronic architecture to a more powerful one for decades, but Tesla was the first to take the plunge with the Cybertruck. Vehicle benchmarking and teardown experts Caresoft have completely mapped out the 48-volt system in the electric truck and Caresoft President Terry Woychowski takes us through some of the highlights. Plus, see a few more fun eastereggs that Caresoft found along the way.
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Terry seems like a great Man. Well spoken, smart, and a natural teacher. I enjoy both he, and Sandy.
He was a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman and now a shill for Tesla/Musk.
Dr Demming > Terry.
@@markplott4820 This guy is just giving a lame sales pitch and you nitwits don't even realize it.
Really happy to hear him mention mechanical fatigue in small wire. Size appropriately.
bingo, there's MANY OTHER VARIABLES to consider in a "dynamic" situation in a vehicle versus a "static" situation (think: sitting still behind the sheetrock walls of a house).
Yup
Me too. They didn't teach this in EE school when I was there. Had to learn practical things like this on the job. In the industries I work in, there is often a minimum wire size. Besides mechanical properties, there is the Bubba factor. If a random electrician might have access, the limit may be 14 gauge. If only trained field techs have access, it can be as small as 26 gauge. If nobody is expected to have access once the enclosure is sealed, 30 gauge is sometimes specified.
Teflon insulated stranded wire stands up well to flexing and vibration.
@@hwirtwirt4500 Yep. We use that kind a lot in aerospace for vibration resistance
When I worked for GM, getting the hundreds of wires passed through the "forward bulkhead" (we were not allowed to call it the firewall) was a major headache and a recurring quality problem causing leaks. I was on the task team to come up with solutions, which were just bandaids in the end. As shown in this video, the trick Tesla is using would solve or avoid problems for any vehicle, but especially for ICE vehicles, where the engine compartment is more exposed to water.
Very good and informative video 👍👍👍
What was Tesla's elegant solution for the plastic cover on the throttle pedal falling off and jamming at full power? One cheesy pop rivet, the cheapest band aid on the shelf.
@@hwirtwirt4500 😂I'm actually a fan of pop rivets. I've applied them myself in low-volume manufacturing when glue just wouldn't do. You'll find them in many critical places, for instance, holding airplanes together.
@@hwirtwirt4500 The supplier was at fault for using an undocumented soap product that interfered with the glue and the rivet was to fix cars already on the road. Making a new car model is hard and all manufacturers have issues in the beginning, for example the Toyota BZ4X had wheels falling off.
@@videcomp Pop rivets are garbage, it's a cheap fix and a cheaply build vehicle.
At 23:00 where he's talking about stepping down, note that there aren't actually any transformers unless isolation is needed (which isn't typical for most of the DC-DC conversions inside a vehicle). Transformers are mostly used for AC circuitry, not DC. Those are inductors and the actual DC-DC conversion is called a "buck converter".
There isn't really much to it. It is literally just a controller, an inductor, a capacitor, and a FET. And the FET is often built into the controller chip. The size of the components depends on the amount of current the DC-DC converter needs to handle and the switching frequency. The more current you need to handle, the larger the components and the lower the switching frequency. The less current you need to handle, the smaller the components and the higher the switch frequency. Higher switching frequencies also allow components to be downsized so its a double advantage.
These buck converters can be the size of your thumb up to around the size of your hand. For example, a typical USB-C buck converter (USB-C can deliver different voltages to the equipment)... that's the size of your thumb and can deliver up to around 60W. The size of two fingers can deliver up to around 100W.
(XXX this is wrong XXX)
The reason an array of capacitors is used there is to reduce ESR (equivalent series resistance). The reason this is needed is because they are using cheap ceramic SMT capacitors. Ceramic SMT capacitors have severe ESR issues. To get around those issues the buck converter controller usually has to have a high switching speed, between 1 MHz and 10 MHz. A second axis on reducing the problems is to use an array of ceramic SMT capacitors in parallel (reducing the ESR).
Ceramic SMTs are preferred because as long as you can control the ESR, they basically don't fail. Unlike other types of capacitors such as electrolytics.
(correction)
Not ESR, capacitance at higher voltages. Ceramics lose a great deal of capacitance at higher voltages. The ESR is quite good. As is life-span.
-Matt
And once you up the voltage, you can do kilowatts with the same chips.
@@rkan2 Well, its the same idea but you can't push that much power through those chips in that footprint. They are only designed to dissipate a few watts (e.g. 96% efficiency @ 100W = 4W of dissipation which is actually quite significant for a passively cooled board like the one shown).
Pushing kilowatts takes a larger footprint, IGBTs instead of FETs to handle the higher voltage, larger capacitor arrays, a significant snubber circuit, and a few hundred watts of heat dissipation. For example, pushing 25kW @ 99% efficiency would need to dissipate 250W in the circuitry.
(high voltages translate to much higher efficiencies so the heat dissipation required doesn't go into the stratosphere, but it is still a big leap over nominal automative 48:12 buck converters that only have to push a few hundred watts and dissipate just a few watts).
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 So like an EV inverter :)
@junkerzn7312: It isn't the ceramic caps that have ESR issues. Ceramic caps have very low ESR compared to other caps and therefore dissipate less waste heat in use. It's the controller chips that lose stability and oscillate when working into very low output ESR. Higher frequency switching operation means you can use smaller L & C values which is always a win, but again it's the controller which limits the operating frequency. I did a bunch of dc converter designs for airborne systems, so weight was a huge factor. I found the Linear Tech (now owned by Analog Devices) line of dc-dc converters were the smallest, lightest and fastest frequency operating devices out there and they regularly achieved 98%+ efficiency when properly applied.
@@morrisg Analog Devices makes some very good, but relatively expensive, switching regulator chips. Some of my favorite. I couldn't read the chip ID of the regulator being using in the video but my guess is that they were running less than 100KHz and the ESR was too high re: power dissipation.
No other reason that I can think of to use that many SMD seemingly same-valued (guess) caps in parallel for a regulated DC output. Though they could have just been doing a mix to reduce the EMF. It looked like there were 4-6 separate regulators in that part of the board but each column was clearly on the same output.
Also, beware the voltage... the output is up at 15V, not below 4V.
I'm also guessing, given the complexity of the board, that there are probably shunt resistors on the outputs... usually one can tell from the shape (wide and very flat) but I couldn't validate my assumption from the video. In anycase, it is not all that uncommon to have something like a 5 milliohm shunt resistor on power distribution boards like this.
So my assumption is that the one with the capacitor bank(s) is adding storage and reducing heat (lowering ESR further), or adding more dissipative area. And that the other smaller regulator he highlighted on the board was probably a low current output running at a higher switching frequency.
These are just guesses, obviously.
--Matt
Terry Woychowski is like the Bob Ross of the automotive industry.
And like Bob he's painting a fake picture created by a sales representative.
@@hwirtwirt4500 I think he tries to be unbiased, even though he is an ex-Head of the GM truck Division. I'll forgive him if I see a little Tesla jealously rear its ugly head!
@@ZipZoomZip He's a salesman working for a conman named Musk.
The Tesla haters are always really quiet on these types of video.
Great content Autoline!
Commenter Boobboob is an exception , he has OCD and mental sickness.no day off for him.
We have bobbobbob to rant on about how terrible Elon is.
Tesla shills pushing the foolish 45 volt system, it's the dumbest design on the CyberFlop. Worse than the razor sharp poor fitting body panels or the single wiper nightmare.
@@jamesvandamme7786Feel free to go read my comment about the sloppy work on all of the PCBs highlighted here. One more example why the most knowledgeable man about manufacturing on earth doesn’t know anything about PCBs.
“But it’s triangular and heavy. Wah!”
Having engineered in auto wiring harness world wide for 44 years I can see one of the biggest benefits of reducing conductor sizes is a reduction in the exponential mechanical failure of harnesses and connectors due to the leverage exerted between large diameter wires and their comparatively flexible insulator connector housings (inevitably plastic). Some of the luxury vehicle wiring harnesses are so big /heavy they take 2 people to lift them and tooling / cost for larger crimped terminal ends again is an exponential rise in difficulty / cost / weight / size.........Go Tesla 48v
If the harness has proper anchor points and clamping, size is not a problem, some systems require massive conductors (EV's for instance) and are very reliable if properly designed. 48 volts is just a sales gimmick.
What you have just described is the problem, those "additional" items, reducing the physical harness to manageable, males a massive cost effective quality move, I know Ive had to be from Mexico to China solving just this problem.....its no gimmick......theres a lot of wasted time and $$$$
Really first class presentation! Calm, educational, professional! Stay with Caresoft John!
It was mostly a sales pitch, nothing new from a technical aspect.
@@hwirtwirt4500 Huh? Terry is a retired GM executive. He has a GM pension, the last thing he wants to see if for GM to go bankrupt.
@@ZipZoomZip Like I said, mostly a sales pitch for Tesla.
Gotta love good engineering.
No "good engineering" was outlined in this sales pitch, just a lot of nonsense for fanboys.
lol, whatever brandon
You may not like the vehicle but you gotta respect the technology and intelligence that went into building it. Imagine how much copper and weight Ford would save if they did this to the F150?!?!
A pound or two if that.
@@hwirtwirt4500 Most 48v wire harness replacement proposals I've seen imply about a 50 pound reduction. It's not nothing, but it's relatively immaterial to something the weight of the CT. The biggest value of 48v is the savings on material costs during manufacturing. Copper is pretty expensive.
re: "Imagine how much copper and weight Ford would save if they did this to the F150?!?!" wait, doesn't the 6781lb Lightning already weigh basically the same or even LESS than the 6884 lb CT, without having to pass on the added expense of 48V and the cost of wasted time to market to their customers like the $100 Grand minimum CT now has to do yet for a DIMINISHING RETURN...?
@@ethanwelner1230 That's BS, your numbers are completely made up.
@@phillyphil1513 The fanboys fall for every bogus claim Tesla propagates.
General Motors looked at 40+volt systems at about the 1990's, when I was there. We had done many military vehicles for decades before, at the 36-38volt ranges for the same reasons. However, by the 90's, we had transitioned to electric turret drives, and it was realized early that these systems were not adequate, so we transitioned to 150-160volt systems. Those could be recharged from ordinary 115-120volt power sources, which were commonly available in military world. When GM engineering generally became aware of these higher-voltage systems, it kicked off a series of EV designs, using such voltages and power levels. However, at that time, the manufacturing plants for lead-acid batteries had pretty much agreed to a common "sizing" architecture for the 12volts, and the shift to 40+V would have required either one-half plate widths (with resultant loss of lifetime), or a double-to-triple sized battery set. Just the weight of the batteries would have offset any significant weight savings from copper reduction, and the production costs would have actually raised the cost of manufacture of the vehicle. Other vendors of items such as Lamps also objected, since the filaments would be too weak to make any customer sense, since replacements would be required every couple of months. It was not until you actually had a technological transition to LCDs, LEDs, which eliminated the old filament lamps, and also the evolution of Lithium batteries, whereby very thin plates and small packages could be made, that the actual shift to higher voltage systems could be made. Televisions and computer monitors drove a lot of this evolution, and later smart-phones forced a complete shift to electronic "smart systems" where 0.2-cent IC chips could mate to any prime power source below about 80volts. With the original alternators on cars, the "load-dump" voltages were capped at about 70-to-80volts at the alternator, so an evolution to a system below that was a natural. The 30-to-40volt range is limited by a "safety factor" due to the work functions of materials, and human safety. Above that range, continuous arcing and welding can occur, which can result in spontaneous and continuous combustion of the wiring and metallic structures. Any customer or service personnel accessible batteries need to be below this range, for human safety, or otherwise they will have to be totally contained, and only serviceable by special tooling. Paschen limits are already being violated by the 400-to-800volt systems, and these vehicles, and their chargers will have accelerated failure rates. The future tradeoffs for this technology are being explored and developed as we speak. I suspect we will learn a lot more, very soon.
Another great video! Thanks Caresoft and Autoline. I can’t get enough!
Thanks John, Terry, and Caresoft for sharing this info on the Cybertruck low voltage system. Much appreciated.
I love seeing John's enthusiasm still, he's always excited for tech and manufacturing efficiency / improvements.
So there is a 3rd reason they didn’t reduce the wire size for the battery cooling loop, they may be planning on using the same loop for the “Range Extender”. Or they may be considering the truck may need more cooling
Also, it looks like they changed the connectors… really can’t see them not changing the wiring if they didn’t think they would need it.
The "Range Extender" that uses up most of the already compromised cargo box.
To be clear; I’m defending the engineers, not the vehicle design. The Cybertruck is definitely not a truck and will never be usable for towing/hauling/work site power/etc., even with a range extender (way to long to recharge). If you want a real electric truck, Look at the 2025 RAM Charger, enough battery for daily driving and a real range extender for towing/hauling/camping/worksite power/whole home backup/etc.
I expect the Chinese EV makers to adapt a lot of this technology in their EV's to reduce the weight and cost even more before the legacy automakers. Someone posted on X, "Americans innovate, Chinese replicate and Europe regulates!"
Chinese EV makers are, to a great extent, EV companies with no ICEV history. They are run and staffed by EV people, not pistonheads who have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to making good EVs.
And there's not the "ego" problem that hampers legacy ICEV from copying what Tesla has demonstrated to work. Jim Farley is pretty much the only legacy CEO who openly recognizing that Elon has gotten it right.
The Elon Effect, The Brussels effect... What do we describe tge Chinese with?
re: "I expect the Chinese EV makers to adapt a lot of this technology in their EV's to reduce the weight..." to sober you guys up and help put things in perspective. back when the Taycan first came out, Porsche said that switching to an 800V architecture allowed them to save 66lbs of weight. okay on a car that still weighed 5100lbs on the road, that's not exactly "moving the needle". trust me, i scaled the fairly optioned RWD tester i had back in January 2023 and it came in at a whopping 4920lbs (so 5150 then with me behind wheel)...
now compare this to the Gen-2 Rivian R1T where they said that copper "basket ball" represents the removal of 40lbs due to use of their new SUPER streamlined architecture (which i agree it is in fact streamlined and certainly saves "bigly" on manufacturing and assembly costs) but that means the R1T's curbweight drops to a 7100lbs vs the older Gen-1's 7140lbs. breaking news, in a vehicle that still weighs 3.5 Tons, this savings does NOT MOVE THE NEEDLE...
now considering that the weight of "Young KC's" Cyberbeast as measured by Motor Trend and Jason Fenske was 6884lbs, looking at the difference in AWG used between some of the Model Y's few harnesses and the CT's few harnesses, my educated guess from fitting a few wiring harnesses into racecars, is that the switch to both 800V and 48V (for the exorbitant cost being passed onto customers) didn't save them any more than a "paltry" 50lbs MAX over the whole of the vehicle. again, with a Stainless Steel bodied truck that heavy (yes I've driven one of these too out in Vegas back at ACT Expo in May) this "measly" 50lbs saved unfortunately DOESN'T MOVE THE NEEDLE...!!!
@@phillyphil1513
You have an insensitive needle. Every gram avoided means less energy needed per mile. And as energy needs drops that means a smaller battery pack, saving more weight.
Then there's the cost needle. Less copper + smaller battery pack = cheaper cost to manufacture.
@@bobwallace9753 You need almost as much wiring on a cheap car, so the proportion of savings would be much bigger.
I'm a retired electronic engineer. If someone had come to me 20 years ago and asked me to design the entire electrical system for a car starting from a blank slate, I would've said : 48Vdc; zonal architecture; software defined; Ethernet and power on the same wires; and steer by wire. Am I some sort of genius? No, definitely not. But I think most competent system designers in that era would've come up with the same list. Tesla deserves a lot of credit for finally doing what should've been done long ago, but I can't say any of it is ingenious. At least not from what I've seen so far.
But I should add something critical to my previous comment. A modern EV power train is far more advanced than I would've been able to produce 20 years ago. I still find the charging speeds to be amazing.
The solution was obvious, but the bean counters call the shots.
@@rwdplz1 that's true for everywhere except at Tesla. As Elon says, all rules except those imposed by physics should be treated as recommendations only. Elon forces the teams to search for the most logical and simple. That's his genius.
@@garyrooksby Is that why the CT has a single giant wiper blade that keeps breaking and stainless steel skin that is in no way structural? Because those were the most logical and simple solutions? Is that why the model x kept getting delayed for its gull wing doors? Y'know, the ones that also break a lot? Tesla goes back to first principles a lot, but it also has a dumb child at the helm who demands some pretty weird stuff.
@@garyrooksby Ahh yes, the most logical and simple cybertruck with its worlds largest unreplaceable windshield that then required the worlds largest windshield wiper. Both of which are having problems. Lets not also forget about its totally non structural (and very heavy) exoskeleton that required they buy the worlds largest metal presses so that the ct could be in the shape of a rhombus and thus have terrible aerodynamic properties and thus terrible range. These are, for sure, the most logical and simple solutions.
Love this entire series of videos. Terry is so well spoken. It's clear he not only knows what he's talking about but you can see how enthusiastic he is about the technology. Hope these continue.
Wow, I thought this channel hated Tesla? Nice to see something positive. Tesla should be able to take credit sometimes, they have brought so many firsts. The EV market was dire before they transformed it and single-handedly ignited interest in the market.
I wouldn't say this channel hates Tesla, a couple of the hosts have changed tune over the years, but some are still very critical. Now if you go back 5-6 years ago then yes everyone on here was very critical of Tesla.
You realize this is like the fifth video in a series, right?
John McElroy changed his tune a couple of years ago , Sandy Munro might have had a part in that , John knows what Elon and Tesla hath wroth, and legacy auto has to change or catchup else they get demolished by the Chinese Auto.2030 is but 5.5 years away.
John doesn't hate Tesla. Gary tries hard to hate EVs. The big problem I see with this channel is that they live in the Detroit information silo.
@@bobwallace9753 The only problem with its channel is that autoline after hours guests are sometimes pretty poor, but thats true whether or not theyre talking about EVs. This channel only gets its tesla hater accusation from people in comments who spend all their time watching tesla cultist channels like Farzad. Channels with essentially no credibility what-so-ever and who are purely just influencers marketing to tesla fans.
This is one of the most informative and well-done videos I've seen on this most important topic! Thank you. If I had had Terry as a professor (and I did have excellent professors), I might have continued my graduate education in EE (instead of statistics, IT, and cognitive psychology). But as the wheel turns, all these subjects and disciplines come back together again (first principles, etc.). It is an exciting lime to be alive!
Looks like Bosch is on board with this change to 48 volt. That is a big vote of confidence for Tesla’s system.
superb presentation. i enjoy these teardowns. surprised to hear legacy too risk averse to improve. this is what competition does.
Thank you , at last someone explained to us non technicals how 48 volt reduces the amount of copper.
and the Aluminum "wire" is Solid core.
Thanks for the video, please keep interviewing the professor about more things, I love watching and learning from him
Professor or snake oil salesman?
48 VDC is what the POTS plain-old-telephone-system uses. At your local telephone exchange office there is a huge 48 volt lead acid battery weighing 3000 pounds. It can hold up the telephone system for days without recharging. It is an extremely clean DC current source. To local telephone(s) the wires can only flow a very small amount of current. Off-hook the telephone line is loaded causing the voltage to fall to much lower.
I'd like to known how 48 VDC systems are dealing with physical switch contact arching that is an issue above 24 VDC. The major issue for DC voltages above 24 volts (28 volts effective with two 12 volt lead acid batteries) is direct current arching with common switch contacts. Alternating currents have a huge advantage when it comes to switching with physical contacts over higher voltage direct current because the alternating current goes to zero volts cutting off arcing unless the gases have ionized in to a conduction medium. DC currents will continue to arc much longer. They can fuse a relays contacts together at relatively low voltages where there would be no problem for the same average AC voltage which actually has a much higher peak voltage. Common switches with physical contacts are rated at 125 VAC and only 24 VDC.
Tesla doesn't use much relays in their latest architecture vehicles, not even traditional low amp fuses. Allmost completely solid state.
TESLA uses a 48v Lithium battery , thats LIGHTER & Smaller than the LEGACY 12v Lead Acid battery.
I just really hope this winds up in the M-Y refresh. I don't expect it but Ican dream
Thank you both for this great video.
*Excellent!* Loved seeing this stuff.
Thank you Autoline for content while your team is on break.
John, very minor thing, you need to bring an Autoline vest or shirt so you do not like you work at the company you are visiting (😊), more important is when people want share this video your Autoline branding will in the video. Just a thought.
Keep up the great work.
Good suggestion!
Very educational, great many thanks. Love learning some things new everyday
Excellent explanations of the 48V system.
The comparison is fantastic; just want to know an interesting features, how they raise 400V to 800V while charging a 400V Charging Station. For example, while Hyundai, BYD, and other OEMs use existing components (Emotor winding for boosting), Cyber Truck achieves this function with the use of additional electronics. Show us this additional stuff and how they incorporated it into the penthouse, cost and so on.
This had been covered in other videos. Basically, they split the pack into 2 x 400V systems. When you plug it into a V4 (800V) charger there is a switch that connects the batteries in series. When you plug it into V3 or lower it connects the batteries in parallel. They found a much simpler solution without the complexity of additional circuitry.
@@rudyadjetey5120 Its a great solution, but it does, in fact, require additional circuitry and complexity. It's not a magic spell.
@@ethanwelner1230 Not as much as their competitors came up with like Lucid. This video explains it well. czcams.com/video/J5zDNaY1fvI/video.html I don't know if you've seen it already but I found it informative and a simple solution.
@@ethanwelner1230 - Tesla's approach is far less complex and costly, while utilizing 100% of the power available. Other approaches like Porche and Lucid use expensive electronics to convert 400V to 800V and are very power limited, often to only 50 kW (slowing charging speed to about 20% normal). Tesla's solution is better without any downsides.
Yes, splitting the pack seems like the best solution. It just requires two extra contactors and while these are expensive devices, they aren't as expensive or as fragile as a high-amperage/high-voltage boost converter.
Thank you for great lesson, Professor Xavier!
Obidiah Strange.
Great presentation. Thank you!
The host, John, is a smart man and a great host.
Thank you guys. Looking forward to see the fruits of all these techs... Like the long awaited affordable model.
At Tesla the engineers run the company. NOT the accountants. It shows in their agility and everything they do.
Guess what type of people run Boeing?
😭
Boeing's wiper motors work as designed!
@@bobbbobb4663 after how many decades? ALL vehicle manufacturers who bring out a brand new vehicle or platform have issues and recalls. Remember the Chevvy Bolt battery replacements on 100% of the fleet? The wiper motor wearing out is a tiny issue compared to other companies' recalls.
@@garyrooksby But the stans say that Tesla is soooooo much better than the legacies; yet, they always compare themselves to the legacies. Credit to Musk for Chief Engineering something that took five years to develop and was clearly rushed out the door at the last minute.
I can assure you not a single engineer at Tesla wanted to give the CT stainless steel skin, a 6 foot wiper blade, or an unrepairable windshield.
Terry gives a great lecture. John is the student representing the worldwide class.
Close-ups really appreciated.
I hope Terry pays well for this sponsored really important news for mankind and our use of worldwide resources.
I expect Terry has a string of customers paying him well.
All very well for Elon to circulate his document to the industry, but it is people like Terry who can advise the actual components Tesla use and who supplies them.
And Terry tears down other vehicles too. Great to see his summary of recent Chinese vehicles. Innovation in China is quickly made known to other makers around the world. Patents ensure inventors get paid to innovation others want to use.
The innovation industry functions well.
Thank you for the education.
What an amazing vehicle! It really is the greatest vehicle ever built.
What a great prof!
Really informative! 👏👏👏 I wish they do the same from now on in their future vehicles 👍👍👍
That is the plan. The low voltage systems in the Cybertruck are about 85% 48V, the plan is for the next vehicles to be 100% 48V.
@@tesla_tap 👏👏👏 Thank you very much, and I look forward to it 😁😁 If they also implement the drive by wire system it would be perfect 😬
high-energy components like the active suspension on the Ferrari Purosangue make a huge difference. POWAH!
Porsche went straight to high voltage there which is an interesting avenue
high energy components like the "active suspension" used in almost every So-Cal Low Rider built in the last 50 years, and the numerous ones i photographed (and watched perform) held annually inside State Farm Stadium (Phoenix) for the famous Arizona Super Show back on Sat April 20th, makes a huge difference...
btw (while i didn't know it at the time) the Lilac painted '64 Impala named "Indigenous Angel" i saw displayed and got to photograph in Phoenix - built by Carlos Martinez - went on to win the inaugural award for Best Low Rider at Autorama Sacramento.😎 source: Motor Trend Magazine.
Does Caresoft do open houses? I’d love to attend.
who wants a better mousetrap? "not me" said the big three...
What is interesting is that on the "old" 12V systrem, The RADIO or HEAD UNITS or power amplifier had to use a BOOST converter to multiply the voltage in order to get the desirated amplifier output level.. BUT with 48V system.. you no more need that!! even the RAIL of 48V is enough to work in half bridge and supply 1000W to the speakers!
24:36 More important that component suppliers like Bosch (did I saw Bosch wipers motors?) start building 48V versions of their components used by the car manufacturers. Having Telas already as a customer for some of the components makes it easier to start.
My car has a rear-mounted battery, and the harness that carried the 12V power forward developed a bad connection and had to be replaced. I kept the old harness, and after stripping, I had about 25 lbs of solid copper. With a 48v system, that copper mass could have been reduced to 1/4, saving cost and weight. Plus, with less current, the marginal connection probably wouldn't have caused enough voltage drop to be a problem.
For an idea of where Tesla is going with this evolution in electrical architecture design, and why they can pull it off:
czcams.com/video/38H_8asDUfY/video.html
Cybertruck is just "Etherloop" version 1, and we have a pretty good idea already of where it's headed from their recent engineering slides and product roadmaps.
Sounds nice, I bet it will be great once they get all the problems ironed out
5:40 - A Texas Model Y to be specific. Tesla makes like three differrnt versions of the Model Y...
Do they talk about increased energy efficiency or reduction in heat losses because of this switch to 48V? Heat loss = Current^2 x Resistance. Therefore, assuming that the resistance remains the same, the current becomes four times less (because of the voltage going up from 12V to 48V), the heat loss will come down to 1/16th!
I wonder about insulation rub through yielding shorts to ground with higher voltage able to jump a spark gap that 12v would not. Not to mention in high corrosion conditions.
Side info. Military wheeled vehicles run off of series parallel batteries running 24v and 12v. LMTV HMMWV FMTV Armoured Knight.
CT are now Deployed in DUBAI PD.
Missed the important reason that a low voltage system is needed. High voltage would be dangerous to use in all the peripheral devices. Why 48V, because it is about as high as you can go and still have a 'safe' low voltage.
When you eliminate the cost of a paint line you make room in the budget for 48 volt systems. If you work for a traditional auto company and you move to a 48v system and eliminate the paint line you save even more money by loosing your job.
I'm still wondering why Tesla doesn't use data over power cables and shared ground. That way they could have only one 48 V shared wire for everything and use Powerline ethernet data connections over that wire.
Smaller manufacturer couldn't do this because you need lots of devices to make it sensible to produce enough controllers so that cost per controller for the data adapter gets low enough thanks to mass manufacturing.
Go back and watch Munro's interview with the 5 engineers and you will learn why they didn't go the whole way, in this truck they tackled the highest loads
re: "in this truck they tackled the highest loads"
It should be noted that 48V has been in general use as a standard for decades, just not in Autos, and nearly all the technological components already existed... particularly power over ethernet (POE) which has been around for a very long time. It was very easy to implement because the data lines for ethernet are capacitively coupled, which means you can piggy-back a DC level (aka power) on the same wires.
The current standard is called POE+ and is defined as a 48V standard that can transmit around 15W per twisted pair. A standard gigabit ethernet cable contains 4 pairs, so 60W can be transmitted. There is also a higher-voltage and current industrial standard that can transmit significamtly more power. The twisted pair for ethernet is 23 to 26 AWG (roughly).
Terry did a good job describing the advantages but missed one of the most important advantages... losses over wiring go by the SQUARE of the current. P = I * I * R . So transmitting the same amount of power over the same gauge wire at 48V has 1/16th the wiring losses verses 12V. And because of that, thinner wire can be used and EVEN WITH the thinner wire, power losses over the wiring at 48V will STILL be 1/8th the wiring losses verses 12V for carrying the same amount of power.
-Matt
Automotive PoE is expensive. The cheaper option / still needs to be developed is a 2 wire, high speed serial differential bus / 48V supply. The return path is the tricky part as it is the negative differential leg plus the return for the +48V bus.
@@bobbbobb4663 The data busses are not directly wired DC, they are coupled to the transceivers with capacitors... i.e. the data is effectively an AC signal. That is why DC supply voltages can be run over the same wires.
And because the data is coupled with capacitors, it doesn't matter what the coincident DC voltages are. You are thinking of the voltages in absolute terms but that isn't how ethernet data transceivers work.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 Oh I'm familiar with DC blocking caps and DC bias on high-speed signals. Now turn that into a 2 wire only bus where the return path is shared with the differential leg, i.e. turn PoE into one pair containing DC and differential signal. There's another interesting option that is probably patent-able so I won't share it. All this to say that +48V has a long way to go before being cost-effective.
@@bobbbobb4663 The wires are bidirectional. Data flows in both directions on the same wire. In fact, in gigabit ethernet, data is full-duplex and flowing in both directions on the same wire at the same time. Each twisted pair represents a 250 MBit full-duplex link.
@@junkerzn7312 By definition, any 2 wire scheme would be half-duplex. However, the data return / acknowledgement would be slow speed.
Funny you should mention the wiper motor. There is currently a recall open on the wiper motor for the motors failing. Over on his channel, Munro praised the wiper motor for being small because it runs on 48 Volts. Commenters were quick to point out thar the physical size the motor is not necessarily related to operating voltage.
Reason #4,678,090 why $andy is not a degreed engineer!
@@bobbbobb4663 Agree, the presentations here are much better, not just disguised advertisements. To be fair, some of Munro’s presenters are quite good. I have a lot of respect of Carl who has taught me a lot about why decisions are made regarding the materials and processes used to build interior components.
@@wtmayhew $andy does hire actual engineers but if $andy's bio on his webpage, it makes me question why anyone would want to work for him.
Sandy lost credibility a while ago, a few videos ago he was losing himself over the "magical" welding of two panels that were, in fact, actually just glued together (and have been delaminating). Caresoft seems like a much better presenter.
Tesla hater
Like Elon or not, he's changed the vehicle industry for a lifetime. Going against the grain to do the obvious is why I love Elon.
In-Q-Tel Elon got the credit for others' work. And, he's been riding the myth that BEVs are green, reaping along the way all sorts of tax breaks, carbon credits, SDG7-rhymes-with-WTC7 free press, etc. And now the Cybertruck. As far as pickups go, few pickup owners will be changing to a Cyberstuck or any other BEV pickup ... until forced, which is of course already in the works.
Elon is a conman and fraud, that's why you love him.
large semi already has 24v for as long as they exist btw
making boards the "lightiest" way! 3:)
12:45 it's not "work to be done", they almost certainly sized the CT wire to be able to run much higher average power to the coolant pump in order to get a much higher sustained battery and motor power.
Marketing the truck as "faster than a porsche while towing a porsche" then having it throttle to 60 MPH when actually towing in hot weather would be a PR desaster.
Bottom line is 48v has no ise out of large deaw power like windows or suspension , everything else will get stepped down and the weight savings and cost wont add up to much and probably more since insulation on the connectors will need to be huge.
I would love to see a deep dive on the Cybertruck’s ethernet.
less heating in the motors, lower current spikes - great for motor driver components, better pwm, not having to deal with high current is great
Why not 96V?!
And 48Vdc is below the safety threshold of 60Vdc.
👏👏
Guys please use U for Voltage as a symbol! V is the unit!
U is the reference designator for IC’s
@@bobbbobb4663 you are clearly not getting my point. In equations (mathematics) U is the universal symbol for Voltage! There was not schematics shown where U is the descriptor for ICs yes
@@steinmar2 In any realm of EE, V is always Voltage. Ohms law will never be U=IR.
@@bobbbobb4663 aha and welcome to the metrical world also good luck outside of US with your assumption :)
@@steinmar2 Funny…Tell that to the engineers from England, China, Japan, and Thailand I’ve worked with over the years. V is for voltage. Little u is micro.
Every time you have Woychowski on he talks so quietly I have to boost my Windows volume to twice what any other YT content requires. Just boost his mic in post, c'mon.
Watch on your phone. Or iPad. Listening with earphones permits me to catch nuance - which is hidden by noise on Windows
.
He's perfectly understandable on my system with no changes. Do you have CZcams's "Stable Volume" enabled?
Quick question, did you have a falling out with Sandy Munro?
No. Sandy is a great friend of Autoline, and Autoline has the highest respect for Sandy.
👍
So how much of this is simply a result of Tesla solving for a Tesla-specific design problem? My 25 year old EVs use much smaller wiring than what you showed for the Model Y, and in fact, their 12 V wiring from the main DC-DC converter appears to be a similar size to the Cybertruck's 48 V DC-DC wire. Is that because my 25 year old EVs ran the cables for all the non-essential, heavy load components directly off the 300 V system's HV junction box? In combination with the floor for the low-load wiring size being 0.35 mm2, it seems like there are very few areas of actual improvement that justify a switch to 48 V, especially when LV safety issues are also considered.
your EV's are NOT High Tech SMART cars w/ AI hardware & software.
your EV are just Dumb electric cars.
not really ADVANCED.
@@markplott4820 And yet, all the high power draw components are powered from the HV battery, which reduces wiring sizes even more. It seems to me that that is common practice even for other, modern automakers, so this 48 V for EVs seems mostly a gimmick. Especially since even in the Cybertruck, not all components are now 48 V.
10:24 - now pay special attention to this point boys and girls regarding what he states about there being LIMITS.
21:00 seems designed so a Tesla Bot can do it.
I don't think imaginary things are capable of installing wire harnesses.
@@ethanwelner1230
By that comment we determine that you are not keeping up.
That is rude to call the Fremont and Austin employees "bots"
Why such a big jump? 24 volt technology is well tested on trucks and small aircraft. When you switch voltages it's the little stuff that can bite you.
LEGACY autos should have gone 48v in the 1960's .
NO real progress in 100+ years.
@@markplott4820 -- There weren't any great loans added in the 60s. The starting loads were increased as V8 became standard. It might have been reasonable to shift to 24 volt nominal system. That increases the max available power without demanding the re-invention of all the technology. Many trucks then & now (& busses) use 24 volts. I believe one or two model have successfully implemented electric power steering with 12 volt systems. 24 would make it universal. That's high enough to pick up all motor driven loads to include the A/C. Things like the water pump and the oil pump could run on 24 volts.
I enjoy this guys views on things. I unsubbed Sandy because he’s insufferable and is not impartial.
Sandy: "I'm not emotional" - proceeds to go off on heated rant.
Caresoft is a much larger operation.
Architected? How about designed?
First! OK, let's get granular....
If you're running out of power for all the modules, maybe you have way too many. My POV there should only be four: engine, transmission, brakes/stability/traction, and spyware/infotainment/misc.
No windshield wipers. No heaters and AC. No power windows, seats, and mirrors. A car that the public wouldn't buy.
No air bags. A car that the government wouldn't allow to be sold.
@@bobwallace9753 How about sensors and radars, and maybe some lights? And get rid of the engine and transmission.
@@jamesvandamme7786
I didn't attempt to make a complete list. But there's no need for radar if you build a smartcar.
23:50 They missed the other easter egg "Mind the Gap"
It's sexual reference on a woman
It's morphed into that meaning in some areas, but its older reference is to the gap between cars in subway systems (specifically British). In this context there may be a more specific pun intended (spacing between higher voltage traces?).
Nothing sexual about it. You would get fired at Tesla for doing something like that. Tesla expects all their employees to act like the mature adults they are.
You also have to look at voltage drop on low voltage DC systems. Not uncommon to see 10.5-11volts under load on 12v systems, so things work harder and hotter on lower voltage systems.
we have been using 48v dc systems for 25 + years. car manufactures are just lazy bean counters. Elon, good or bad kicked them in butt to wake up.
I appreciate that Tesla takes the risks to change things. They might not be inventing something totally new, but they are showing legacy builders have been stuck due to company culture, profits now no consideration for rhe future benefits thinking, no appetite for risk, and so on.
I know Musk rubs many people the wrong way, but his personality has made taking big risks okay. Tesla is successful for manyvreasons, but adding in the willingness to gamble on developing tech that might fail really helps.
Ummmm, MUNRO has has a Gigacast chassis/frame over 20+ years ago.
no LEGACY oem is using Gigacasting in 2024.
Outstanding presentation!!! Non engineers like myself find this material fascinating.
The Coolant pump data is bullshit, 24amps RMS through 1 square millimetre would be unreliable. The pump is brushless and is communtated at the BCM, 24 amps is likely the peak current on 1 phase.
Speak up! Up the volume, please.
Interesting to see the design choices. Some wires are clearly not sized for continuous load, most notably the seat heaters.
Flimsy is what comes to my mind. They better have sturdy insulation.
Most don't understand that 48v has been widely used for at least 20 years in the computer industry.
PoE is a standard.
Switching to 48v opens them up to more suppliers.
But not automotive suppliers. That's why no other car maker in the World has had the guts to do this in the 50 years that engineers have known it was the most efficient way to go.
@@garyrooksby bingo!
dunno what happened with sandy but its funny hows hes saying the exact same thing
I wonder if Detroit auto has declared Sandy to be an enemy.
Couldn't agree more
@@bobwallace9753 The feeling is mutual.
The annual J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey (IQS) is out and, for the first time ever, it includes data from franchised dealership repair visits to give a broader sense of what’s bugging new car owners. Right at the top are electric cars, with way more problems per vehicle than gas-powered cars.
Righoff the rip this guy seems to not understood power. Weather you use higher voltage or lower voltage its still gonna consume the same power.
CT is extremely EFFICIENT like all Tesla vehicles.
LEGACY auto , not at all Efficient.
if or once Tesla install 48v, Ethernet & SbW in all it's vehicles-the game is over!
there isnt any game over lol!
These technologies are going into all of the newly designed vehicles as it's cheaper and more efficient. It can't be retrofitted to existing vehicles' designs. It's a technology that needs to go in when the car's still on the drawing board. But all the savings will be going into the vehicles built with the Unboxed Process, driving costs down.
@@garyrooksby re: "driving costs down." while driving Warranty Claims and Customer Dissatisfaction UP.
My 6 year old bmw has both 48v and ethernet…
Elon and team have just reset the Autimotive industry and mechanical engineering.
My top serise at this time
Good luck with harness electric failures when the car gets several years old. These tiny wires are much more prone to cable breaks.
Tell me about it I’ve had so many problems with the electronics in my 2011 Honda CRV
designed to fail, they can't have these car's lasting +20 years, they need an ever bigger steady stream of income.
Cars need to be more recyclable anyway.
More likely to have failures from terminal to connector fretting. $andy Munro first principles says the best anti-fretting gel is no anti-fretting gel!
@@TonyBasuro in the us we recycle 10,000,000-12,000,000+vehicle's a year ad 90-95% of the ENTIRE vehicle.
I'd say if you are setup for it? Current car recycling works pretty darn good! Top 10 gdp contributor in America, car recycling that is. 👍🏻😎
The 48 volt DC circuit was required to run the steer by wire system and the 48 volt battery as a backup. Nothing high tech about it and it adds cost and complexity.
Lol, I guess you didn't watch the video? Copper is apparently becoming a scarce resource and it's cost has increased as a result. Like with every mass used component, reducing the cost per vehicle of copper has led to lower production costs.
@@thabzmad7265 Copper is not scarce there are plenty of mineral sources but the processing is fairly intensive. The amount saved by using 48 volts (which was only necessary on the CyberFlop to run the fly by wire steering) is negligible and requires the use of a very rare and expensive 48 volt battery which is required as a redundant backup for the steering in case of power failure. This sales pitch claiming it as breakthrough technology is complete BS. Stop drinking the Tesla Kool-Aid.
@@hwirtwirt4500 lol, wow I am not a Tesla fan by the way and I don't think anyone claimed any breakthrough. As per the video and anyone with electrical background,the relationship between current, voltage and resistance has been known for over a 100 years now. Tesla doesn't have an established supply chain to upset so it's easy for them to take on new challenges with electronics.
@@hwirtwirt4500 Oh and do check up on an imminent copper issue facing the world...
@@thabzmad7265 In the US there is an almost unlimited amount of ore to refine plus the fact that copper is constantly recycled.
This guy talks way too slowly, speed it up Mr, we don’t have all day for you to say two sentences 😂
Fun fact, there's a speed control under the play bar in youtube.
@@ethanwelner1230 I turn on the captions and run 1.5X or more.
re: "Automotive engineers have wanted to switch from a 12-volt electronic architecture to a more powerful one for decades..." correct, but now the NEXT question you must ask is what SOLUTIONS did the savvy Electrical Engineering community come up with in the last 50 years (regarding 12V) such that they DIDN'T HAVE TO go back to experimenting with higher system voltages (ie, 24V, 36V, etc)...? 🤙 yeah, did they look at each and "shrug their shoulders"...?
A: no, because i assure what they DIDN'T DO the last 50 years was just sit around "wringing their hands" and "clutching their pearls" over this problem. right with that being said i offer $50 bucks (cash money) to the first person who can CORRECTLY answer this question, and to that end i suspect username "retrofitter" in the comments will take this prize. okay which one of you thinks you can beat them to the punch...? err... beat them to my $50 bucks...? 😀
The car industry has know about higher voltages, large castings, EVs, and all sorts of stuff but didn't act on it. Tesla acted.
We were lucky to change from 6 to 12V in the 50's. I'm sure a lot of purchasing managers objected that you can't buy 12V parts anywhere.
@@jamesvandamme7786
Following up on that. Now that Tesla has opened the door there should be a lot less resistance from suppliers to offer higher voltage components.
They reduced electronics components size which resulted in lower power draw. Now I claim the $50!
@@thabzmad7265 Ummm, I dunno about that.
The 48v architecture is probably the only thing in the CT that is well engineered, but at least they pulled it off. Once Tesla gets back to designing real vehicles and not ugly hundred thousand dollar toys for sr engineers at google this will be a real boon.
what OTHER Production car/Truck has ARMORED glass as Standard & Austenitic HFS that is Bullet Proof ?