Throwback Breakdown: Sinbad- Dreamworks' Dark Sexual Awakening
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- čas přidán 6. 11. 2021
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SOURCES:
www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp4... (sinbad original story)
www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp4... (love triangle)
mjsimpson-films.blogspot.com/2... (adventure story)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damon_a... (damon and pythias)
www.ign.com/articles/2003/07/... (interview with john logan)
www.imdb.com/title/tt0165982/... (Sinbad imdb) - Krátké a kreslené filmy
“A children’s story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children’s story in the slightest.” C.S. Lewis
A children's story that can only be enjoyed by children carries no meaning and gives children nothing to think about.
I love this quote because it’s so true. So many animated movies from my childhood are so much better when I am an adult and I understand the mature themes the creators put in there.
That explains why C.S. Lewis is constantly ripping off the Bible in his writing, I suppose?
@@thomasrush2095 No, that was so he could get children praying to Aslan so that they would pray to Jesus later in life. And I'm only halfway joking.
@@thomasrush2095 That, and because he was a theologian. His buddy Tolkein ripped off the Kalevala, the Norse Eddas, and other ancient European literature because he was a professor of ancient languages....all in all, a writer should write what they know!
As a child I was devastated that my hair did not follow the same physics as that of Eris and I never truly recovered.
LOL.
Same girl. Same. I am also sad I have not grown up to be a hot and terrifying goddess. I was lied to.
hope it does now
i watched thhe movie 6 months ago and im silll pressed my hair dont move like that
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Comment Gold
It's a scandal that critics disliked this movie. Twenty years later, the animation looks so gorgeous. 3D animation still has goofy-looking humans, but the humans here are so expressive.
I've honestly loved that eras animation, and I'm 43.
for me it was the disgustingly awful story. the look was fine but the plot was beyond trash.
@@cokecan6169 what? It's exactly what a story from Greek mythology would be like
@@user-mx4is4fx3c in theory yes, but based on run time and execution no. Eris was quite literally the only good part of the movie. Everyone else is poorly characterized and never draws interest.
It’s the prince of Egypt and el dorado animation that I love.
Also, I think when you say "the audience wasn't ready for a darker, nuanced animation" it should be "the older generation". I haven't met a single person who saw this as a kid and hated it. Instead, me and my friends adored every "dark" animation. My mother also pulled me out of theaters during Anastasia because of how dark it was. It was a generational idea about animation that my millennial generation didn't hold to 🤷♀️ just look at what we grew up and started producing later in life!
You’re probably right that at the time, there wasn’t a large enough adult audience in place to pay for something like this. Now the kids who grew up on darker cartoons and anime are the paying audience.
That’s why I never thought that the whole “American vs. Japanese animation” thing was particularly fair. Japan has had a large adult paying audience for animation since right after WWII.
Until maybe the last 10 years or so, American audiences wouldn’t go to see an animated film that wasn’t family oriented. Even when adults enjoyed an animation that pushed the boundary, they’d often frame it as being something their kid liked.
Animation is so expensive to produce that the safer bet was to green light projects that emulated Disney or Pixar.
I saw it in Box Office with my Aunt. At the Time I thought it was boring and paced badly. I was like 8 so most of the core of the film was just Missed.
@@katmannsson Well thank goodness it's NOT "boring" and "badly paced" AT ALL because it's amazingly well done movie that's overall well paced and exciting from beginning to end.
Yeah the only people who think animation is a kids genre and should be treated like that, are those who grew up in the 70s because of Hanna Barbera
Ironic that the 90s,early 2000 animated films were dark and mature while in murders day everything is so vanilla.
The hair physics and sultry voice combo never fails
the animation on her was top class work of art!
The hair physics is brilliant. I can feel her hair brushing against my skin as she swirls around Sinbad, and she isn't even a real person.
Yah that hair was on point!
100% I would always go for her
And the way she moves around as gracefully as water like she isn't even solid.
I'll never forget the awesomeness of Eris having a galaxy bubble bath and constellations as pets🔥🔥🔥. Immediate crush👀.
Top waifu
Well she is a GODDESS
Same here. Maybe she's where my obsession with stars and galaxies come from?
@@vexjaeger4314 Yeah, but most of the time goddesses are boring. If they're good, they're all white (and white) and give out prophecies and tell the hero how great they are. If they're bad, they kill one of henchmen because "spooky scary. She da evel, hehe." They are always so freakin' one dimensional. Here, she is a GODDESS. She is the goddess of discord, so she is THE GODDESS OF FREAKING DISCORD. If she wants star shapes as pets? Lady gonna get her shiny scorpion. She wants a weird dimension that constantly changes and repeatedly destroys itself? Why not. If she wants to turn one of her bath bubbles into a snow globe so that she can shake it and make everything world snow? LET IT SNOW, LET SNOW, LET IT SNOOOOOW.
She cannot be killed by a magical sword that a 13 year old somehow found, even though people much more experience and older have tried for years; she cannot be turned good because chaos and discord is a MUST in this world; she is the bad guy because she does cause chaos and hurts people, but she is also good in a way because she DOES HER JOB as a goddess of discord. She cannot be killed and so the protagonists have to actually use their heads and turn the tables around. If Sinbad hadn't been a cunning pirate, well versed in manipulating and twisting people's words, this would have ended very differently, because there is no ultra powerful spell or OP weapon that can save the day. Because, y'know, she's a GODDESS.
@@gem9535Hmm pretty apt discription of how many “gods.” In shoes seem not to be all that powerful. Like with Eris, I could see how sinbad would beat her in a fight. AT all even her sea monster wasn’t killed just. Dematerialzied
Honestly, Proteus seeing that his friends have fallen in love and encouraging them to be together not only shows that he is Sinbad's friend, but was also always Marina's friend. That's even more filial piety
Agreed when he proposes to marina at the beginning. He knows they’ve been engaged since they were kids, but he respects her enough to ask her personally again, and then at the end he knows marina never really wanted to marry him, and he accepts that.
I actually liked that, too!
@@AndreNitroX I mean, Proteus is one of the most wholesome homies found in any media.
Positive masculinity right there. Strong, yet also; just, noble, empathetic, humble, sensitive, and caring.
Proteus is the best bro of all bro's.
@@sindri1447 also they would usually give him another girl, but he stays single in the end.
@@AndreNitroX I always liked to think that Proteus, having seen how happy his friends were together (& having just had a 'near death' experience that likely gave him a new perspective on life being too short to take for granted), went on to find a true love of his own, as opposed to just accepting another political arranged marriage.
The fact that the "getting the girl" trope was considered is interesting given the success of Aladin, in which a key plot device is the fact that Jasmine is "not a prize to be won."
I agree.
And the fact that she said that herself proves she's si mature and humble! 🤔Jafar on the other hand thinks he's the prize!
and then she gets won lmao
Michelle Pfeiffer really has the perfect evil sexpot voice. Pitch perfect casting as Eris.
Those producers looked at a total loss for words when she finished her line reading.
I get goosebumps when she says “ enough talking, time for some screaming”
THAT'S how her last name is spelled !?
@@curlyguy2790 yea
Ahahaha literally 😂😂
Yessss
I feel like Sinbad would have done much better if it had released in 2021, people are a lot more open to more nuanced, mature animation than they were before, and most of that stigma is (hopefully) gone
It also wouldn't compete with a good pirates of the Caribbean film.
most of the mature disney/dreamworks animation from back then would have. If anime can do it, than western animation could have BEEN done it.
Or would it get calls of sexism with puritans trying to tone it down even more , I like the one we got but would love to see the original script but have very little trust that anyone in Hollywood would do it justice and not butcher it
@@raven-sf3di If this Movie came out nowadays Sinbad and Proteus would only be nice to one another as a way to try to win her over: by proving who amongst them is more worthy of her affection. In an attempt to escape all the posturing she try's to leave the city with a pirate crew only to be, unwantingly followed by Sinbad. The plot put together by the goddess would be to prove that women are better then men.
The ending would involve Mariana forcing the executions to stop , her being declared the most qualified person to be Queen of Cyprus and her deciding instead to leave Cyprus, Proteus and Sinbad behind,with the pirate crew, because she's a strong independent woman.
and 2D-3D hybrid renders are much better now too (though Disney was very good at them already at the time
My only disagreement is that in the original plan, Sinbad giving up his love for the sake of the city and his friends, and the security and wellbeing of the woman he loves makes him MORE heroic. Its a heroic sacrifice. It shows the audience that putting others before yourself is a heroic trait.
i agree however Sinbad isn't really the problem in the original. It's how they used Mariana. Sinbad and Proteus are great characters but for the love triangle to work she had to be in love with both and with the timeline of the original story, it makes Mariana look shallow and more of a plot device. Plus we kinda have that trait in the movie when Sinbad told the story of how we was in love with her when he was younger and left because of Proteus.
@@MsPurpleDancer easily solved by having her know Proteus for years
@@fullmetalpleb yeah but it still makes her love look shallow. I like the route they used in the final film where Mariana respected Proteus but i don't think it's love, or at least love like she had with Sinbad. It could be possible if they went with the "Knew Proteus for years" route, it would imply that she loved Proteus in a different way then she loved Sinbad. More of a puppy/childhood crush love vs. actual we have connection and stuff in common type of love. And it wasn't just Sinbad's love is the reason why Mariana stayed with him but also his lifestyle. You saw her in the movie loving the life of sailing so that also added some dynamic to her character. Either way, i feel the final film made Mariana feel more like a person of a character than a prize to be won/ plot device character.
@@MsPurpleDancer I disagree, a bond that forms over time is more valid in my opinion. The relationship between Sinbad and her is classic trauma bonding nothing more.
@@MsPurpleDancer To go into my point further, a bond over time is because of the actual person you fall in love with, their quirks the fact she was willing to stow away in the first place
Where as what she had with Sinbad could of been any man if had simply survived those trials with her. Which... Is shallow. I've survived great trauma with women and adventure only to never talk again, where as a girl who knew me a while was my most meaningful relationship.
Hot take: if Road to El Dorado, Atlantis, Treasure Planet, and Sinbad came out today as part of the MCU, people would be praising them for all their good aspects (charming characters/performances, worldbuilding, action, humor, music, etc.) instead of fixating on their flaws, and they would have slayed at the box office. I say this as someone who really enjoys the MCU, but I also don't quite understand how these fun adventure films are forgettable and mediocre while even the lesser MCU films get a pass.
Add Titan A.E and this is a god-tier list
I think the problem is that we place a somewhat harsher view on new IPs and singular movies. Of those movies only treasure planet and Sinbad is using prestablished work, and with the both are taking from older work that kids are less likely to know.
I would say Thor would be the best example of the issues these movies face. Thor is pretty clumsy in writing if I recall, having large amounts of cgi effects, old source material being modernized, and a story that tries to appeal to kids and adults. The difference is that Thor had the fact that he was an avenger to prop the movie up. I would watch any of your listed movies over Thor 1 but due to recognition alone he has significantly higher views.
And the animation is far more gorgeous than what we're seeing nowadays.
I would say having Chris Hemworth and other attractive muscular people helped as well.
It's all about confirmation bias. MCU is so overhyped no one wants to admit it when a movie doesn't live up to that hype
Thankfully it seems to be losing that lately
I'm not going to lie the 90s and early 2000s animations always have a good place in my heart, Road to El Dorado, Atlantis, Sinbad, Hercules, Incredibles and etc are some of my favourite movies from my childhood and I born in 2000.
I still watch those movies as an adult and they are still top tier films!
Treasure Planet is still my favorite and I'm 22. I always tear up when Silver gives Jim the "you've got the makings of greatness in you," talk.
"You got the makings of greatness in you, but you gotta take the helm and chart your own course! Stick to it, no matter the squalls! And when the time comes, you'll get the chance to really test the cut of your sails and show what you're made of! And... well, I hope I'm there, catching some of the light coming off you that day."
and TItan 2000 AD?
@@jacktheripper5112 ... You mean Titan A.E.?
@@plzletmebefrank idk i forgor
Dude, it’s funny how you made me really like the idea of this original film draft when summing it up, then instantly made me dislike it once you started explaining its flaws. Lotta really good points made in this video.
I will count that as an op success lol
@@savagebooks7482 god damn you just gained a subscriber, bell button and all
This was my reaction as well
Same
Pretty much explains what happened to me lmao
The original story isn't about the love triangle, it's about the value of honor and loyalty. It's about putting aside your own feelings to do the right thing. So the original writer made the wrong argument. The story should have been argued not about Marina's feelings and her love, it should be about everyone in the story choosing honor in the end. Which is a legtimately better ending to the tale than the actual version.
There was one aspect of this movie that I really, really loved as a kid that I'm a bit sad you didn't mention at all. To me, as a young girl who wanted to be a badass adventurer when I grew up, the best part of the movie wasn't Marina choosing Sinbad over Proteus, but choosing a life of adventure over a life caged as a married woman in a traditional society. She was an adventurer at heart, and being stuck in Syracuse would've felt awful for her. Sinbad was almost irrelevant. In my eyes, Proteus let her go be a pirate not because she loved Sinbad, but because she could only be happy adventuring at sea. The love was just the nail in the coffin. The adventuring job as a pirate was the real reason.
THIS!!!!
heh , when i was a kid i felt kind of sad for Proteus he puts his life and trust to every one and ends up with nothing well at least keeps his life
this was beautiful! I felt the same even though I am neither a woman nor from a traditional society, but I strongly relate to the desire for freedom and adventure
I see your point and they definitely wanted to show this in this film still but this is a little rude, if it weren't for sinbad or his ship, Marina wouldn't be sailing anywhere, shed still be back in Syracuse
@@snusemcgoose1001 Man, It's almost like that's the point of a Narrative! Like god forbid stuff happens that changes the course of a character's life. Pff but of course, bring up that she would be married and not a pirate if Sinbad didn't show up. Like if she didn't meet either of the characters, there wouldn't be a triangle. It'd be the original telling of the story. Homies being homies 🤝God forbid a woman have autonomy and gasp Choices! Gotta rub it in when a lot of woman only get major life changing choices in fiction. A girl can dream huh? I guess not
Eris, Shego, Azula, Dark Strong Female characters.
Me at age 10: I don't know what this feeling is but I like it.
sAME but add Bellatrix Lestrange to that list
Shego was my bi awakening and Eris put me back in the closet
True enough.
There was a whole movie aside from Eris? I’m only here for her 😳
I agree, out of all the characters, she seemed to have the most personality and most visually interesting. I could watch an entire movie with her messing with folks.
ngl i really don't remember anything about sinbad, except that there are pirates and eris. that's how memorable eris is
Same would love a eris based show or movie on her
I can see Rossio's point: Marina loving 2 men isn't impossible, or makes her a device, if she _genuinely_ got to love them for _specific reasons._ Had the 3 of them been friends as kids, Sinbad left due to her, and she grew closer to Proteus, that'd be logical. The voyage would reignite the two's connection, and seeing their willingness to die for each other is proof of the heart of each, which she could admire. Proteus _knowing_ she had no feelings for him made his giving her up just a bit...easier to do.
Either way you look at it, *there is real love* between the 2 men, the versions just differ in who's is greater. In the original, it's Sinbad's, seen in his nobility and selflessness in giving up his claim to a girl he has adored since childhood, as well as the woman he grew to care deeply for through an extraordinary journey. In the released version, it's Proteus, seen in _his_ willingness to release his betrothed so that both she and his best friend may find happeiness together. If they had removed the scene where she is tricked into a meeting, and given her the choice, she would have still retained her agency, no matter _who_ she chose. In the movie cut, it could be argued she's similarly a prize to Sinbad...a reward for _his_ willingness to die for his friend, _as well_ as him "Giving her up," as it were.
I suppose this is all a matter of how tnis story is framed, is all.
Truth and only the truth. Also, I had an earth-shattering revelation when I discovered that Sinbad, Treasure Planet (and Rise of the Guardians) weren't widely critically acclaimed films. Dreamworks had so many amazing movies that I played over and over on my vhs tapes as a kid. (Also, Spirit single-handedly made me a horse girl in my youth, so that's some power to hold over a child.)
I never trust the opinion of jaded critics, it’s not to say every movie I watch as a kid is good but so many films like this are still great stories to me as a kid.
I'm glad someone remember spirit too, when talking about underrated animated movie if the era everyone talk about prince of Egypt, the road to El dorado and Sinbad(and treasure planet for Disney) and spirit seems to always be forgotten. Spirit and land before time are probably the most nostalgic movies to me.
Yeah, I had sinbad, and treasure planet on dvd, still do and love them!
critics are pretentious it is known
If you drop another video like this, but about _The Road to El Dorado_ , people will *explode*
It’s tough to be a god
@@AndreNitroX but if you get the peoples nod
@@emolady666 Count your blessings. Keep em sweet. Thats our advice
@@AndreNitroX (it's great advice!)
Agreed.
Clearly we need a re-make that ends with Marina declaring: "If I am queen, and this is ancient _Hellas,_ then I am just going to marry both of you."
I know that's supposed to be a joke, and yes, I laughed, but still it doesn't make any sense because no one in Ancient Greece had two spouses.
@@cherusiderea1330 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_Sparta last paragraph under marriage
The obvious answer to a love triangle is a polygamy
@@cherusiderea1330 there weren’t real goddess’ and sea monsters back in ancient Greece but we’re drawing the line at polyamory, gotcha
@@superrswalkthrougn incidentally, I highly recommend the book Iron Widow, where Wu Zetien agrees with these sentiments.
Why have the bad boy and the childhood friend fight over you if they also want to jump each other's bones, and you really have more important shit to do than be fought over?
As a writer, I absolutely resonate with Terry Rossio's distaste for the movie we got, vs the movie he originally wrote. The original story ending is far more impactful due to the tragic, yet noble nature of how the love triangle is resolved. Through the story we see that while Sinbad chose a less than savory profession, he is himself a noble man, something that Proteus knows and Roxanne discovers. His decision in the end to allow Roxanne to be with Proteus is a reflection of this revelation and secures in the audience's eyes who he really is, which of course ties beautifully into the contest between Eris and Janus. The story we ended up with is of course far more cliche and predictable, which of course means that it is "safer" in the eyes of the studio to release to their audience. American films have a long history of ruining good stories because they are too afraid to potentially alienate their audience, which is stupid because it is the tragic nature of these stories that attracts audiences to begin with. Sinbad was a film well ahead of its time, and it is a shame that the original story will remain untold to most audiences. That being said, your title is incredibly accurate as well XD.
It wasn’t about a love triangle, and having her stay with Proteus and giving up her feelings for Sinbaad because it’s what she’s supposed to do, not because she wants to, also leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It’s compelling fiction, but confuses the original message, which is more about compassion and trust, than romance.
I think what we got in the end is far better than what Terry Rossio originally wrote. I think Marina was a very hollow character in that version and the direction they ended up going with makes her into a fully fledged character that also grows into her own throughout the movie and by the end she figures out what she wants and ultimately it's her choice how she wants to lead her life from henceforward.
Terry Rossio still wrote a perfectly fine story. I just don't think I would have liked that story nearly as much personally. Not as a kid nor as an adult.
Keep in mind that this is all coming from somebody who has seen the movie near a hundred times as a kid, since it was one of my favorites. I would roleplay as Sinbad after viewings and stuff like that. I've watched the movie a few times in my adult life and I still find plenty of enjoyment in them.
But then you'll have to see that in the original draft all three of them already knew each other as kids right and already had history but Sinbad and proteus like the same girl and this also goes into the further analysis of Eries and Junas as an example of Sinbad being being a scoundrel and a pirate but still having a noble heart going into the good side of humanity but not only the bad side
Well, I do like the final version better because Sinbad did let go of Marina and walked away. I find that during their adventures Marina became more secure into knowing what she wanted and chose a life at see with a man that could offer it to her without compromise.
i think that the love triangle in the original version was completely unnecessary. the narrative has just as much emotional weight in the final version. we still receive the message of sacrifice, but they don’t use marina or her emotions as a plot device to get us to that conclusion. the love triangle was a weakness in the original idea. the final outcome contains a much more genuine and satisfying story by providing agency and thoughtfulness to each and every character, not just to the sinbad/proteus relationship.
The dreamworks of this time was creating beautiful unique art and story telling. The prince of Egypt and Sinbad have similar art and I just love it.
When I try to recall the plot of Sinbad, a love triangle isn't what I thought of first. I thought it was a story about friendship.
The sexual undertone is pretty interesting for the perspective of an adult. But I do think Marina became the queen does make sense, because in the world view of ancient greek, people doesn't really have agency under the gods. That's just decent worldbuilding and it might be too alien for modern western mind, which is one of the the points of worldbuilding, right?
"because in the world view of ancient greek, people doesn't really have agency under the gods. That's just decent worldbuilding"
What? I have NO idea on what you're trying to say at all here? How is that "decent worldbuilding" for people? You mean they can't govern themselves outside the gods' will?
i agree it reminds me of the ‘chosen one’ trope that’s pretty popular now
@@alessandrarodriguez30 The ‘chosen one’ trope was popular since it's inception until now.
Same! I always think of father friendship, Eris, and the relationship between Sinbad and Marina.
@Gadget-Walkmen well, they can try, but remember Homer’s The Odyssey? Acting outside the will of the Gods mostly went badly for people in Greece.
Proteus is the real hero here. Goddamn.
Yes. I mean atleast he gets to run the country he loves
I agree. Proteus is truly a bro.
What an absolute Chad.
The “Sin” bad boys always win lol 😂
@@biggwash708 yep
My favorite line.
"You're cute but not that cute."
-Aris
“Enough talking, time for some screaming”
Proteus doing a bro move did come off as being considerate. I think if they had pictured him as being more sorrowful about it, then it would have been more satisfying and viewed as an actual sacrifice.
I suppose, proteus matured a lot while waiting for his death. He probably realized how much he wanted to dedicate his life to his city, and isn’t want to keep Maria from her dream.
you just dont see his perspective . in cantoons and films some things not said out loud . proteus gave up on every thing
Gotta disagree with you on this one, man.
I loved this movie as a kid, and I love it now… but it always bugged me that Proteus did nothing *but* take L’s for Sinbad’s benefit.
There’s a way to blend the original and the story we got to make something special, and I’d like to live in the timeline where that movie came out and smashed box office records.
I see where you're coming from but it's too one sided against the wishes of others for proteus to have mariana for himself at the end knowing she doesn't love him back like she does with sinbad. And ESPECIALLY since it's an arranged marriage.
he became king though cx the biggest win and what wouldn't have happened if it weren't for sinbad and maria also what that guy said
@@Gadget-Walkmen but in the original version she loved both of them equally
@@legendinvoker I’m sure she did, but this story was mostly to be involved with the relationships between friends, and what a good filial relationship really looks like at its core, the love triangle was only meant to service that song and dance.
@@legendinvoker well the problem with that (which was also mentioned in the video) is how Marina fell in love with these two characters. You got one dude who she fell in love with within just a few days after spending some time together and a guy who she fell in love with after going through an adventure and risking life for another. You compare those two and it almost makes her seem like she was just a hoe wanting the future king's "throne" if you get what i mean. However, i'm not saying the original idea is bad, in fact, i do think it's a lot better (especially the ending) but i personally think they needed to reinforce Proteus and Marina's love a bit more beforehand.
Eris' last question, and her subsequent re-appearance in the finale, was one of my favorite bookended climactic moments of any movie from my childhood. Good video.
Yes it had that whole fairytale event to it. And it is still such a great climax, since uniquely the villain is defeated without killing them.
I particularly enjoyed how quickly Sinbad goes from a kind of noble attitude, solemnly accepting his death, and then Eris shows up and is FURIOUS with him, and it's like a switch gets flipped in his head. You can see the exact instant he puts the pieces together and just starts acting insufferably smug.
"Wasn't there something about being bound for all eternity?"
@@NicolaeHolley love that. also despite failing the first test, its revealed the test never ended until Sinbad's neck was on that chopping block, which means he would not have passed if he wasn't 100% willing to die for his friend.
@@AndreNitroX I think it's an indication that Eris doesn't actually have any ability to really read minds or anything like that; she really thought Sinbad was lying, that he would run, and that everything would collapse according to her plan. Up until the last possible instant when she had to make the sword shatter, she couldn't admit that she had been WRONG.
@@NicolaeHolley yes, well said.
As a writer I completely understand why Terry hated the changes to his story.
I watched this movie for the first time a couple years ago with my parents and older brother. I really enjoyed it, though every time Eris was onscreen was incredibly uncomfortable with my mom in the room. It didn't feel overtly sexual, but the undertone was totally there. I think my favorite part about the animation was how they made Eris amorphous. Turning into whirls of slithering mist and back into a human shape so organically was something I hadn't seen before and it was an intriguing aesthetic. The Prince of Egypt and Sinbad had some awesome visuals and it's a shame more people aren't talking about it.
After hearing both sides, I think the best answer would have been to mix both drafts. By having both romances be real, the writer could keep the high drama score of 30. Then change the ending so that Sinbad still gives Marina up to Proteus out of doing what's right. But then, have Proteus tell Marina that she can choose who she loves more and wants to be with. Maybe she realizes that her love for Proteus was only surface level, but she ultimately chooses Sinbad. This gives Marina agency, makes keeps the brotherly love from the 2nd draft, and gives Sinbad a happy ending.
It's similar to the ending of Spider-Man 2, where Peter gives up his chance with MJ because it was the right thing to do, but MJ makes her choice to come back to him anyway.
I agree.
I think we also should have seen all three of them as teens, since Sinbad suddenly falling in love with Marina (while never speaking to her) doesn't make sense, especially if we don't see what the inciting indicent was. And his friendship with Proteus doesn't have as much impact, if we go to see why they were so close to begin with.
They could have made it clear that Marina loved elements of them both.
@@jaygriffperiod85 Yeah
I agree, but one problem: she only has agency, because proteus graciously tells her she may have autonomy over her own life? Nah man
@@alinacohn1934 Fair enough
@@alinacohn1934 I think it's more like. Since Proteus is able to recognize that she is in love with Sinbad, he is helping her relieve the burden having to confront him about her feelings for Sinbad. I think it shows how mature Proteus is and allows Marina to express to him who she wants to be with, without being ashamed.
He basically creates a safe place for her to choose.
I like the original story better but savage books made very good points for the final version, some of my thoughts:
Hearing about the original story my reaction was "hey, a plot where the hero doesn't get the girl at the end and instead picks the greater good for Syracuse, how refreshing." I think is pretty telling the argument about the original story playing on the old trope of "the girl as a prize" is focused on the memo of the writer and not the script itself because the final version is just worse in that aspect. At the end of the day, whatever reasons the writer has for the beats of the story are infinitely less impactful than the final product. If you ask people what version uses the trope without mentioning the memo, I would bet the final version would be picked more.
Proteus stepping down, while very mature as pointed out, is also the only sound course of action, not only his love is not reciprocated but Marina actively wants a different person. Arguing he has every right to marry this person that doesn't love him and is in love with someone else has the same vibe of the memo treating her like an object. Proteus is not setting aside his own happiness for the sake of his friend. There is no happiness in a marriage with someone that doesn't love you. Considering Marina as a person, there is no drama or decision in that situation, just the logical course of actions: person A doesn't love person B and loves person C so obviously person A doesn't marry person B and stays with person C. Sinbad sacrifice is better because his love is reciprocated, there is a potential future there.
While I agree 100% the book choosing Marina is a very gratuitous twist and Sinbad having more of an arc in the final version, is kinda accidental to the crux of the conflict between scripts. You can characterize Marina during the plot of the first script as a competent leader and Proteus as a good and popular man (hence why people think he is going to be picked) but hint that he is not especially good at administrative work. This also adds a nice contrast between her character and the lazy version of Sinbad and gives her a reason to travel along with him beyond distrust (or at least adds a distrust of competency and not just morals) that is actually right. And Sinbad now can have an arc about the value of hard work. Both of those things are unrelated to the logistics of the love triangle.
Yes, completely agree. Ultimately I think he ended up arguing against the motivations/inspirations for the original plot rather than the script itself. But he is an editor so that's understandably also a part of his job
While I still much prefer the final script I absolutely agree with you! Marina’s character flaws and good traits could have made or broken the original overall story, as well as how good of a candidate to the throne and how much sense that twist made. If done well, those characteristics would trump the theory of her just being their trophy at the end, of being just the girl they get.
I do still believe that it would have been detrimental to the value of the romantic relationships and the impact they had on the story if she so easily fell in love twice within a few days. But again, just because perhaps her emotional maturity wasn’t at par with her intelligence and sharpness does not mean she couldn’t have still made a good queen, specially if her leadership skills were highlighted during their journey.
Man, u said just what I was thinking. Thanks
So Proteus is just there to sacrifice himself for their friendship while Simbad gets it all. Is that real friendship? I would have preferred if Simbad left Marina with Proteus or if Marina chose none of them to preserve the friendship.
I watched this cause I saw Eris and said “oh hey, that’s where my type came from, what’s this?” And oh boy now I wanna watch the old animated movies, it’s like someone took the worlds I used to imagine when playing and made a movie in em. Very well made, and a very welcome nostalgia kick, I’ll be staying thank you
If your interested, I posted a eris video on my channel.
Some ways to fix some of the things SB brought up:
1. Make Sinbad/Marina's journey longer: Maybe not screen wise, but in-world time the journey could be a matter of months instead of a matter of days. That way Marina's character can't be seen as flippant or unsure of her feelings. Same can be said about Marina and Proteus. Have her arrive a year before the king was to be fully dead and imagine a love blossoming through that time.
2. The love triangle choice: It could be along the lines of a three-way conversation between the characters where they put all the cards on the table and explain all that had happened. Maybe (I personally like this version, but that might just be me) during the conversation Pro and Sin try to not stand in each other's way and offer up the other's hand in marriage, but Marina denies them both. She sees how hurtful and heartbreaking the entire situation is and would always feel unjust in choosing which man to marry because she would never know what would've happened if she had married the other, so she chooses her own path. All 3 end up being heartbroken, but they live through their other passions. Maybe all 3 decide to sail the world. Maybe they enter into a polyamorous relationship, maybe they all split up. If Marina still becomes Queen in this story, she can devote herself to her people while Prot and Sin could sail the world together.
3. Marina becomes Queen. I don't hate it. She put in as much risk as Sin to save Prot and displayed strength, critical thinking skills, and bravery. Honestly, a man who would sacrifice everything he has for an old friend is a GOOD person, but can they be a king? If Sin kept being himself in the kingdom and was a horrible pirate, would Prot be able to drop the hammer on him? I don't think so. Sin also would'nt want to be King, it isn't in his nature. Maybe the book couldve said Sinbad's name, but he rejects it, he then offers up Prot who decided he no longer wants the throne and they both offer up Marina as Queen and she accepts. Could be tied into the love triangle decision.
I have to say until pointing it out I didn't really get why this movie was always one of my top three. Its ability to tell thematic stories way above its age rating is possibly why I connected so heavily with Sinbad and a lot of the DreamWorks animated films oppose to Disney. It doesn't hand hold you just because it is a kids film, sure it has the tropes but it is an adult dilemma wrapped in the skin of a kids film. I remember being profoundly effected by Proteous' mature approach to letting go of Marina and accepting that it simply wasn't meant to be instead of squabbling with Sinbad as if it isn't marinas choice. Once again a theme which is far above the age range. It treated it's characters like people with rational thoughts and desires...god this movie was so good. (Also soundtrack is just incredible, use of bassoon and clarinet was such an amazing decision).
Well said. For me despite the fantasy and cartoony tropes, the characters feel like real people, and besides the action I am heavily invested in their drama.
This comes down to moral compass and honor. Regardless of Marina's ability to differentiate between real love or flimsy love, Sinbad has an over arching obligation that supersedes his love and lust for Marina! Proteus is not only risking his life but so are Marina and Sinbad. This means all are in agreement to the most important focus; to honor their respective relationships right? So to destroy that intent with betrayal on any side defeats the purpose of the story entirely! Who would risk their lives for someone they don't really love (besides a superhero)? Falling in love or lust with someone is not an excuse at all! Even if they acted on said love or lust and never took it further, that would be better than Sinbad and Marina ending up together in the end! If they do, it says the only honorable and sensible person in the entire story is Proteus and thus his lover and best friend deserve the worst and Proteus himself is an idiot or naive at best. Sinbad is not giving up what is not his to give. He is honoring his friend and Marina by taking himself out of the equation! By saying that Marina as the queen isn't able to choose which man she wants is a manipulation of the true situation. She could've chosen Sinbad if she wanted to but by seeing that Sinbad himself decided to make a right decision it helped her with her own choice and clarity: a clarity usually clouded by emotions! It takes two to tango so one doesn't work! as far as becoming Queen by proxy ok , that is a bit forced but it can be argued that men have been Kings for the same reasons and less throughout history whether they wanted to r not!? The problem with the story to begin with is that no women would go on a potential death sentence journey just to make sure someone does the right thing, especially when her husband chose this someone to begin with! She didn't need to be in the story at all really but was no doubt injected for a broader audience! it also says a lot about P
Well said
I´ll run a not so interesting idea by you:
I think the author is right in his original opinion about the gravity and tension of the character relationships. I also do think that you are right regarding your points towards the character of Roxanne and elevating her ending from being "the prize" of two mens desires, to having an actual decision of her own. After all, the original conflict has been resolved, the second one would be the love triangle which has her at the center of things, so it should be her decision impacting the lives of all three of them.
But...one can write any number of plot contrivances to create tension in the relationship between the characters. For example:
If Roxanne was forced into her marriage with Proteus, being the princess/noblewoman of another country that would wage war if this marriage arrangement would fail. As such she would have been more than relieved to find that she was actually in love with Proteus, creating a win/win scenario. Naturally at the end when Sinbad leaves her (knowingly of this or not), she would then make her decision to stay with Proteus not being one completely of her own, but choosing logic and compassion for the people of the kingdom...as such making her a worthy ruler as well, although hidden to some.
And this is my point - that was just one way which I think this story could have been rewritten, there would be many more ways to do so, but it is also the exact reason of why I lead with saying that I agree with the authors original assessment of the character relationships, even tho I agree with your improvements to actually make the characters more engaging. The reason is that I think the whole scope of this discussion is too shortsighted. For me, what stands as the initial point of why those changes were made in the first place, was not the quality of the writing itself, but to please the core audience. And I think that is where I take issue with any and all changes being derived from. I would argue that the mere fact that this story was being adapted by a company wanting to sell a product to kids and as such interfering with the authors vision is always a setback for storytelling (even if it sometimes turns out to be a good thing for other reasons) because they want to cater to people of a certain age range where restrictions "have" to be based not because of interests of those peoples taste but because it becomes more sellable if it creates a feelgood moment for them
(ie a story being told for something like finding new love in the autumn of ones life being made so that more adults of different age groups can identify with the aspects of such a story, for example, that there is always time for a new chapter in life to start and that hope can change a person down to their core, is a much more understandable and agreeable change, than to interfere with a plot because kids have to be saved from unnecessary hardships, psychological struggles or simply are more likely to recommend a movie to their impressionable peers if it ended on a feelgood note).
I think that the allure of a lot of the Grimms brothers´ tales came especially from the fact that in their core they were uncompromisingly told as a story for the sake of being interesting alone. They spread to kids not because they were made to be likeable or feelgood but because they were too good to not be told and carried onward.
So basically I agree with your points making the characters feel more rounded but only as far as you are doing it from the perspective of actual improvements to the storytelling, which even in its original form seemed to not have mattered too much to the original executives decision to make changes. And that´s why I have to go with agreeing with the author to stand his ground in defending the logic of his work, improveable as it might have been. So personally I have to disagree with your direction in your suggested fix for the story, as said, making the decisionmaking process of the characters more well rounded I very much agree with you, but directions such as Sinbad already being in love with the girl beforehand or the girl coming with him because the other character decides thats what he wants as well is more fullfilling the feelgood narrative, understandable as those desires might be, maybe from your perspective being a different one than the movie studios but still invalidating that hardship and the truth of something having to be given up sometimes in order to do the right thing, being portrayed.
In the end 99% of what sticks around in my mind is Eris anyways so we can agree on that.
On an unrelated note, I appreciated that you made the distinction between the author having written Roxanne that way for any mysoginistic reason and him simply having the focus of his character writing on an old trope that does infact work well for what it is supposed to achieve but has narrative shortcomings that don´t do the female character justice simply because it is protraying her through such a male focus lense.
Also english not being my first language, sorry if this was hard to follow, my bad.
Well said
Simple, have the 3 characters all be childhood friends that care for the others.
It only further embodies brotherly love.
Armin, Eren, and Mikasa. Mind, will, and strength.
I don't agree that your conclusions wrt Marina's love lacking genuineness is necessarily true. For one, it hugely depends on chemistry and storytelling, for another, your argument is founded strongly on the monogamist idea that you can only love one person at a time truly (or at least is phrased as such) which is in direct contradiction to the dilemma of a love triangle. It is entirely possible to make Marina's love for both men entirely real without cheapening either one, especially if they offer different, but equally valuable, things to her.
But love triangles are often founded on "monogamist ideas"??? And monogamist ideas are bad because they contradict your idea of a love triangle?
Like, IMO, the whole point of most love triangles is to have a conclusion two people end up together, while the third party reaches an understanding with the couple. The worst love triangles are the ones where the third party gets cucked, or the woman is just a plot device or stretched between her two lovers.
Generally, Love triangles exist in the sphere of monogamist ideas, where there must ultimately be a resolution that leaves one party without a partner but feeling morally fulfilled.
I could just be complete misinterpreting your point, tho.
@@bulletproofwhale5869 my point wasn't that there should be no monogamous qualities, but rather simply that that particular argument - having her truly love both men somehow cheapens her love is fundamentally monogamous in a way that is unnecessary for the love triangle. It is not an axiomatic truth
Characters falling in love in the span of a few days usually annoys me, partially because they barely know each other and partially because they often proceed to throw years, decades or even centuries of loyalties and bonds to the wind *for* someone they barely know.
Roxanne's problem as I see it can be fixed quite simply.
Sea travel in the age of sail could take anywhere from days to months depending on your destination and would often require prep time between hauls.
There are also world-state factors like war, weather, plague and piracy that could cause delays and force a person to stay at one port of call for far longer than they intended to.
So Roxanne, who was presumably only supposed to cart the book there and back again, gets delayed for several weeks and falls in love with Proteus who was escorting her, a foreign dignitary, around.
Then the quest happens and she's suddenly on a weeks long sea voyage with Sinbad, they bond over a mixture of peril and mutual drive to save Proteus and then fall in love.
And just like that both loves make more sense, at least to my tastes.
Even as a youngin watching movies like this and other shows with love triangles.. I always was just thinking 'why can't she have both?' Ahead of my time truly
Sinbad and Atlantis were the two movies that awoke my bisexuality. Sinbad and Milo? The epitome of hot men. Eris and Kida? perfection.
As a kid, I loved the connections to greek myth, the animation, and how exciting it was. As an adult, I can really appreciate the depth of the characters and themes throughout -- and I am also pleased that I can recite the entire opening monologue and fight scene from memory. I just so badly wish we could explore the world more -- the city looks so beautiful and I wish we could have more time in the world, in Syracuse and outside.
I wish to God we had gotten a tv show about these characters and this world!
I’m normally afraid to comment on this videos (feels like there’s many editors/writers who will judge my grammar 😂), but these Throwback breakdowns are some of my favorite videos. The combination of nostalgia with your analysis always makes my day. I always appreciate your work and time! Love this and can’t wait for more
Thanks for commenting anyway! All the encouragement helps :)
Don’t feel scared about writers trying to correct your grammar-It just means you have more self-control than all of us who constantly spell-check our own comments rather than doing something more important. 😂
"Being in love" can be beautiful, but it is ultimately little more than chemical impulse. Real love is a choice. Sinbad and Roxanne's loyalty to Proteus in the end of the original script is real love. And what you said about Proteus' "bro move" at the end is precisely what BOTH Roxanne and Sinbad do, lessened only somewhat for Roxanne because she does love Proteus. But you've done a disservice to every woman who has ever gotten married to say that she has no agency. She chose Proteus before she fell in love with Sinbad and Sinbad just made STICKING with that choice easier for her by leaving, but it was still her choice, ESPECIALLY seeing as she was made queen. Even with all the power to choose, she still chose to be faithful... because she's not faithless like Marina.
This👆💯
“Real love is a choice” lol what? Where the hell are you getting this nonsense from? What? In what way? You can’t control who you fall in love with and saying “being in love is ultimately little more than cHemIcAl iMpuLsE” NO, you fool! That’s NOT what love is and there is WAY more people to it then that you fool.
You got it completely backward.
He does NOT do a “disservice to every woman go has ever gotten married” because you fail to understand what’s being said. He’s talking about the women whose placed into a arranged married which is clearly not out of love but political or religious reasons and most people in arranged marriages don’t “love” their spouse right off the bat, that love is usually built up and in the story of Sinbad, where marina spent more time with sinbad than proteus which is clearly why she’s in love with him than proteus as she was essentially forced to be in a marriage with a guy she doesn’t even romantically love no more than a friend which is the entire point of the change in the movie.
And “loyalty” does not a equate to “real love” you seriously need to STOP with this nonsense that your spewing because that’s not entirely it. You be loyal to something that you hate based on how much you uphold values of honor which your not at all taking into consideration at all.
And your “faithless” crap your spewing is just plain horridly bad as you fail to understand context of the story of why marina didn’t want to be with proteus. Your essentially forcing a woman to stay with a man she doesn’t love romantically at all and deluded yourself into thinking that arranged marriages are better than actual romantic involvement between two people? Lol how the hell did you ignorant comment get so many likes as it’s so bad.
@@Gadget-Walkmen dude chill kEKW
@@nyom6378 no, what this fool said is just plain foolish and pathetic.
Grow up woman choose!
When you fact dropped that Sinbad had to compete with freaking Pirates of the Carribean, my wife and I doubled over from the massive 'OOF'.
Killer comedic timing on your part
Not only Pirates of the Caribbean, Simbad was also competing against Finding Nemo
Yeah, the original script was a better story. It even teaches young men to let go of Love for your own journey. Obviously, it needed a lot of tune up from the points pointed out by Savage, but honestly it sounds better.
i used to search for a girlfriend and try to be what I thought society's idea of a man is. I did many things I at best did not care for and at worst things I'm ashamed of now. Not through coercement but through my own self reflection.
I don't care for any of it now and it's taken quite the load off of me. My goal currently is to become wise and whatever happens happens.
... so let's only learn lessons from the main character and not honor Proteus's sacrifice or the meaning of his role in the story?
@@plzletmebefrank Dude, let's be honest that most of humanity is self centered. And that's not a bad thing, it's necessary. So, since Sinbad is the main character with the most screen time, he is the target of the projection of the story. Hence why it would be a bigger impact if the story says, "You (as the main character of your own story) should be like Sinbad and let go of things, like love, and focus on your journey of life." As opposed like it is mostly taken now, "If you have a great bro, they always help you out, even at their own expense.". This is not a dig Proteus's sacrifice, or that the movie was bad (I loved it), but I find it has more impact is the character with the most screen time is the one to let go. Again, Savage is right that the first Script needs a lot of tune up to avoid other connotations, especially for the female character, but Sinbad letting go would have made for a better story, especially for modern times when it better for men to stop going through the bullshit of right now. Even if the modern situation wasn't so fucked up, the hardest lesson to learn is to live with letting go, and a fusion of the first Script with the published Movie could have had the brotherly themes, the 'love' triangle, maturing into a better person, and learning to let go of love for a brighter future without closing off your heart.
@@plzletmebefrank Well, Proteus is literally only in the first act, before appearing in the third act. The impact is lessened because we barely see him interact with either Marina/Sinbad, and we don't get to see his history with either one of them (we are told it).
The Hunchback of Notre Dame had Quasimodo "letting Esmeralda go" to fall in love with Phoebus, and it was stronger since we followed his journey, and we saw more of him and Esmeralda. If Phoebus was the one who gave Esmeralda up, the impact is a lot weakened.
A similar thing happened with Pocahontas, where she gave up John Smith, and it made the movie stronger, since we saw her journey leading up to it.
@@ignaciovelez2216 are you implying that it is better for someone to give up what they not only really want, but what would be better for everyone involved if they just stopped and admitted to the core of their feelings without being honest to the person they’re doing it all for? All for wandering aimlessly, with no greater ambition, or practice? Love ain’t that simple. It’s one thing to give up love for survival, but Syracuse is NOT in danger with Proteus, who is an absolute king for doing what he did, and that kind of guy gets alllll sorts of fans, so he damn sure ain’t dying without at least an honest to God worthwhile attempt at starting a family.
As someone who has not seen this movie but is familiar with the plot outline of the movie I have to say I agree more with Terry Rosio.
I believe that the best way to illustrate why Terry was right about his being a more potent romantic triangle is via this methodology. What you emphasize in a true romantic triangle is the relationship between the two seeking the partner (in this case a girl). Both potential relationships must be viable and the closer to both relationships being of equal value the more potent the triangle would be.
In the case of the draft Terry is right it is the most potent type I can imagine. A type where she is so invested in both and the men love each other so much that Sinbad willingly walks away. Contrary to what you believe the answer most developed moral people would have in Sinbad's shoes is going with Proteus to ask her which of them she prefers. Sinbad is 100% making a sacrifice here and one far more powerful than the movie offers.
The reason itself is simple to resolve the Draft would involve a "bros before hoes mentality" and the other does not (not that she is anything like a hoe obviously though the brotherhood above all mentality remains strong). This is why Terry is right in saying Draft involves more brotherliness. In the Draft it is a sacrifice to edify Proteus only (as she would be happy with both). In the movie Proteus is backing off from hurting the woman he loves and the brother he loves. The second while extremely powerful in and of itself is not about brotherly love only but also of Erotic love.
What the movie does however is provide us a stock template Romance where any person with a sense of morals would let her go. Both provide functional stories but each are completely different stories. Frankly I prefer a genuine romantic triangle as to be frank I have never seen a romantic triangle done right.
As for your comment about her being a "trophy" I can't disagree with you more. "Get the girl" is just a shorthand way of describing a win in romance nothing more nothing less. What matters is execution something that the Draft version could change to "fix" if any problems occurred.
"Can she genuinely love either men if she falls in love with both so quickly"? Change the timeline, she has loved Proteus from afar for years. He barely noticed her but she always noticed him. She does all these things on the quest to save the man she loves earning the title of queen along the way. When the book is read Eris professes surprise at what is read suggesting to the audience that Proteus was going to be King before everything with Sinbad happened.
Knowing the two men she loves love her back she does not know what to do. Sinbad out of love for Proteus tells Marina he is going to meet her at a specified spot and instead she finds Proteus who is reading a letter with tears in his eyes. Proteus shows the note and the both of them realize what Sinbad did and look off into the distance.
As noted I prefer Terry's version as I have never seen anything like it. Regardless of execution I think we can all admit to having seen at least one movie where the dynamic of the movie plays out and the woman runs off to go see the man she actually loves.
Regardless of the disagreement enjoyed the video a lot. Thanks for all the great videos!
Could not have said it better, myself.
Beat me to the push. I completely agree. I've never even seen the movie either so maybe we are missing something...
Very good points as to how the original script would be greatly executed, but a part of me just loves what they came out with at the end.
The intrigue is still there, I would love to see a movie make work of that original script, at the end both scripts do great work on what the main goal was, and I think some of the decisions did finally come from how old this audience was.
i agree with your argument against terry’s love triangle idea. she appears more genuine this way. there is still drama and tragedy in the final version without slanting marina’s agency and feelings as a character
It was one of my favorite movies as a child, in fact watching that movie is one of the most vivid memories I have of my childhood. I watched it so much and loved it so much that I knew the exact note changes in the sirens song and would warble it out in sync with them. I remember wanting to be Marina because I thought she was just as noble as proteus, and just as clever as Sinbad. I watched it so much that my grandma bought two copies of the dvd, even after already having it on vhs. It was a masterpiece to me and although I’m not sure if it holds up like it used to, I am so happy that a channel I looked to to help develop my analytical AND writing skills had such positive things to say
People can definitely love more than one person at once, so I don't agree with that being a premise for love being flimsy.
Edit: The original version also feels a lot more like a greek tragedy and honestly I prefer it.
Well there is an arguement the monogamy was originally used as a form of population control at least in "civilized" places like cities and towns.
@@actualteddybear891 I think there's a lot more reasons for monogamy
@@actualteddybear891 That seems counterintuitive. Under monogamy, you actually have far more children because more men get access to women. (In pre-monogamous societies, what typically happened is that the nobles would have multiple wives and the majority of men never married.) Poor people in the countryside, those who became more likely to have wives when monogamy was imposed, were also the most likely to spawn large families because of the advantages of having large families on farms. -- In fact, the large-scale urbanization around the world in the last 50 years is considered by many population-forecasters to be one of the driving causes for population growth rates to have plummeted across the world in that time.
@@danielhertel5665 thank you, these people going on about polygamy are a failure.
Also the fact that monogamy societies overcome polygamy societies should be enough to say which one is better and superior
@@danielhertel5665 lol that is a gross misunderstanding of polyamory and sociology. Presupposing that monogamy is "natural" (a flimsy concept even at the best of times) on the basis that you need both parents to care for a child misunderstands human social relationships pre-urbanization. The nuclear family living in a home by itself is a modern concept that has been shown to have negative outcomes on mental health, especially now that single income households have become unsustainable for most. As early as 200 years ago (and still a default in many countries) a family unit would consist of grandparents, cousins, siblings and even family friends, and not long before that a majority of childcare was done by the community rather than individuals (as an aside, the more constant and diversified human interaction a young child has, the smarter and more well adjusted it grows up to be) . Monogamy was instituted in order to establish property ownership/inheritance and also to relegate women and the children they produced as an extension of that property. Love had very little to do with the institution of marriage for most of human history.
Definitely some people thrive in monogamous relationships, but some people also fail miserably, as you say. The U.S has a whopping 50% divorce rate. Some people thrive in poly relationships, some people don't, some people are more suited to thruples or not being in a relationship at all. It's a lifestyle choice that's dependent on the individual and a myriad of factors such as personality and predisposition, religious beliefs etc. Just like jeans there's no "one-size-fits-all" and I hope you explore your options to see what really makes YOU happy and encourage others to do the same.
*Note* I did not see the movie.
One reason I think the 1st version seems to be more _impactful_ is because it doesn't seem like you see Proteus for most of the movie. He ends up being a background character that is in the beginning and the end. The audience, since it's spent so much more (exciting) time watching Sinbad and Marina fall in love, finds their love more _genuine_ . So when Marina decides to be with Sinbad in the 2nd version, it makes sense from the audience's point of view. In the 1st version, Sinbad has to make a more difficult decision. Should he deny his feelings and let Marina be with her original love? It's a harder decision to make. The idea that Marina falling in love with 2 people doesn't seem as immature as some think. I think it's perfectly possible, especially since the 2 men are so different. She loves them for different reasons. If anything, I think her love is more sophisticated and mature since she's able to love for different reasons.
I had similar feelings about the first one. I understand the criticism of Marina being passive and not having agency but I think that can be fixed within that original story. It’s so mature and a grand show of love for Sinbad to leave her behind and accept that he doesn’t fit in her world. It also shows that love can be given in different ways. The sad reality of life is that you don’t always end up with the person you’re madly in love with like Hunchback of Norte Dame. Or you can love two people at the same time like Book of Life.
The movie has a lot of nuance. But marina is her own character, and while cliche at times the romance is done well with Sinbad. Proteus is portrayed more as a freind to her, from beginning to end.
@@knowdaqueen177 not everyone can pull off a polyamorous relationship.
@@AndreNitroX I agree with you.
Honestly, I don’t think I would have minded the ending where Sinbad leaves Marina with Proteus so she can stay and rule with him, even as a child. The whole point of the movie is to show that Sinbad, though rough around the edges, is a good man at heart. That he in fact is so selfless in the end, that he puts his life on the line for Proteus, returning to die - and lets go of the woman he desires FOR Proteus. It would have made their friendship stronger and more consistent, made sense thematically, and led to an incredibly mature and satisfying ending. Sinbad outgrows his love for Marina because he knows she is better off with his friend, in the long run. Marina ending up choosing him after Proteus risked his own life the ENTIRE MOVIE to prove Sinbad’s innocence feels wrong, no matter how I look at it.
You seem to forget that Sinbad did leave/was ready to leave and she chose to go with him.
The points you make about the problems with Rossio’s original story is why I inherently hate romantic triangles, especially with 2 men vying for the affection for one woman. They are usually done in a way that puts the feelings of the two men above the agency of the woman they’re competing for.
The lack of agency on Roxanne's part in the original script is something Savage entirely inferred from his interpretation of Rossio's language and descriptions of broad story beats - hardly an infallible method of forming an opinion.
Roxanne agreeing to accept Sinbad's sacrifice and stay with Proteus instead of rejecting the decision he and Sinbad made for her and chasing the latter is a choice she makes as a character. It isn't any less of a choice than Marina's decision to accept Proteus's sacrifice and abandon her life of luxury for her love of Sinbad and her love of the sea.
But hey, we all have out personal bugbears. In my case, I was quite miffed by Savage heaping praise at the idea of Marina being the biggest reason behind Sinbad's change from the amoral and selfish depravity he regressed to after leaving Syracuse back into a good and moral man. Because I find that trope to be as tired and overused as you and Savage find most of the tropes related to resolutions of a more traditional love triangle.
Lol savage also uses the phrase "sinbad just gives her to proteous" when he gives up his love for his friend but the champions the choice when he gives his love up for sinbad. Why is one taking Marina's agency but the other isnt lol. Both are a man giving up a woman for their friend but in only one does he use inflamatory language to frame it as bad story telling. If she truly loved both then that means she can't choose and the two men would have to. Thats just how triangles work. She loves both equally so she cant decide. Each man loves her but love each other and have to make the choice. If it were women and one man then the women wouod have to choose.
Or the woman is so passive she can’t decide who she really loves. That’s why I hate harem anime
You had me in complete agreement, until you claim Merina falls in love too quickly with both Sinbad and Proteus. However, you are looking at the journey that Sinbad takes as "a few days" but if you know about sea travel prior to motorized boats, you'd realize they had months, or at the very least WEEKS where they had to rely on each other multiple times and came through realizing they made a good team.
I've observed a lot of relationships (outside of movies) and several of them had the details to lead to real rom-coms, or action-adventure stories with large Romance elements (Romancing the Stone levels) and I can tell you it is 100% realistic, and even likely that if the various magical elements were included in real life, it would have made a much more realistic story in the original draft than the ultimate result.
In the end, I think that the moral of the story in which Sinbad "lets" Merina(Roxanne) go with Proteus is more of a celebration of the friendship of two individuals beyond mere sexual attraction and the Proteus turns around and does the same thing.
I agree. It is definitely possible to love more than 1 person, and people love more than 1 person in their lives.
I also think the friendship with Proteus and Sinbad needed to be SHOWN and DEVELOPED; and not told through poor exposition. If friendship is supposed to be a major theme of the movie, and their friendship is a major plot point....... they need to..... show it, and not tell it.
Romance in movies, needs to be done with nuance when the time period is short. And the characters need to make you believe in their love.
I remember seeing a trailer for this as a kid and never thinking about it again. Thanks for the throwback!
Sindbad has always been one of my favorite movies as a child and it still is. I never understood why my dad couldn't stand it. We recently re-watched it together and even he had to admit that it "wasn't as bad as i remembered" and gave it an all-together score of "It's alright" and "re-watcheable"
Ngl everything from the Sirens, to Eris to just- everything about Eris oh my god. That shit gave me goosebumps as a child and I loved her and I loved seeing her on screen
I know what you mean, this movie is so unique with its otherworldly aspects. I made a video about eris if your interested.
Eris, Chel, Kita, Android 18
A lot of awakenings for me
For me it was Dark Magician Girl, Ariel, Raven, and that villainess of the week on Smallville's season 2.
Can we take a moment to appreciate how gorgeous this film is? It looks as if it came out last week. Here's another thing. Michelle Pfeiffers voice sends a chill down my spine. In a good way of course :).
Which films "came out last week' look this good???
Exactly my point, most modern cgi films look aged already, but 2d films that were made with this top notch animation still look great so many years later.
I remember going to the theaters to see this movie, and both my dad and I left the theater LOVING IT. He bought the DVD as soon as it dropped, and we watched it regularly as a family!!
Still one of my all time favorites! It's right up there with my love for Treasure Planet and Titan A.E.!!
I love Sinbad so much but I hated Marina for choosing Sinbad. When you read the original I though that was a much better story but then you explained your reasoning on why you thought it was wrong. Mainly the part where they invalidate her feelings and Proteus being mature and loving enough to let her go. As a writer your video explained how to give characters not only a more nuanced personality but not to use them as plot devices to further other characters agendas. Very well done!
sure I agree that roxanne/marinna doesnt explicitly *want* to be queen, but that's like...the whole point. The _gods_ are meant to choose this stuff, that's how the world has been set up we literally see how gods like eris play with human lives like a game-- they're explicitly under divine whims.
What makes proteus the right person to be king? yes he risked his life but that was because he believed his friend and people _expected_ him to be king anyway. What about the ingenuity and talent when Marina/Roxanne was out at sea? does that show how she could very well be king? the point of the book choosing the ruler is because the culture they live in is a game predicated by gods, and those gods believe from what we've seen _in the text_ that marina is more than capable to be a good ruler.
i think what you said about the love triangle hit it exactly on the nail tho.
I can sort of agree with all sides. Yes, I think it would have been even punchier if Marina WAS in love with Proteus, but couldn't help falling for Sinbad all the same. That's an intense, very raw, very real emotional mess. But on the other hand, Proteus winds up a TOTAL CHAMP in the edited story, loving both Marina and Sinbad enough to want them to be happy. Even if the objective outcome IS still that he....kiiiind of gets cucked by his own best friend, after putting his life on the line for him, which....I can see why that might have left a bad taste in Rossio's mouth.
Another way to see it, is that proteus was just a friend to marina all along ( they have been engaged since they were kids) and was he more in love with his city than with her.
While the final version does give Marina at least 2 choices she makes on her own (to go with Sinbad and to go... with... Sinbad. huh) as opposed to the original 1 (to go with Sinbad the first time), I don't know that it does much more to make her her own character. She still pretty much just exists to further Sinbad's character arc and be the romantic interest. She's fun and charismatic, don't get me wrong, but still has no arc or real flaws explored by the movie.
I would much have preferred her to end up the queen, with a few changes to the story. You're right that in the original treatment she's "thrown a bone" by being made queen. What we should have seen was snippets of him being a good man. Marina is attracted to him because we see snippets of him being a good man and they enjoy each other's company, but Sinbad often fails moral dilemmas only to be corrected by Marina. What we got was really an adventure story that involves almost no character development. Sinbad makes 2 choices: to go to Tartarus because of Marina, and then to return to Syracuse for deus ex machina. Between these decisions is a filler. We don't see him grow or is challenged in his self-image or personal philosophy. Fighting monsters is his Tuesday. Marina is also just there having to make no decisions; although I did like the siren scene because it showed her ability in a pinch, there was no real decision there. She was literally the only one to save the ship. That's plot driven, not character driven. I would have liked to have seen more challenges to their self-identities. I would have liked to see Marina take command over the crew. Maybe the crew has to choose between Marin's orders or Sinbad's and they choose Marina's because she was right. this would show her ability to lead and make her a much more interesting character than "The Damsel" she basically is in the movie. This Marina would be the best person to rule Syracuse: she's active, moral, and can lead.
Sinbad Legend Of The Seven Seas is one of my all time favorite DreamWorks films, and even i noticed at least some of the things you pointed out Savage Books and honestly i found all of the sexual stuff to be some of the funniest parts of the movie.
After rewatching it a few months ago, it might be one of my favorites now, too.
2 things
1. This video is suprisingly wholesome heart
2. #releasetheRossiocut
What can I say I perfer the original script
Re-watched this virtually with friends during lock down and we had a long conversation on, yes, how attract basically every character is but also on an actually culturally diverse cast of animated characters and a pretty entertaining movie that’s truly a family film with mature themes that as a child was lost but as an adult became noticeable.
This is an epic movie that at times I forget is even animated because of the maturity presented.
So, I think the story works better if, like Terry said, Marina loves both of them, but I don't think it feels like she doesn't in the final film. It feels like she loves Proteus, just not as much as she realizes she does Sinbad by the end.
Other than that though, I agree with you. Marina gets far more agency, and kingship is a much better fit for Proteus, since his defining virtue is his judgement of Sinbad, and judgement is basically the good king virtue since Solomon. I do think that she could have reasonably wound up with either of them with just a little tweaking, and I can sort of see where it seems like Proteus loses, but as you said, he doesn't see it that way, and that really makes the movie work. Proteus gets considerably less screen time than the others, but his actions and reactions are super important to the major beats, and the part where he gets a chance to sneak away in the night and doesn't is super badass.
I kinda forgot what a bastard Sinbad was about to be until you reminded me. Great stuff, really good character work, really gives Marina some legit power and not just a bone.
Great video man, I'm overflowing with nostalgia right now. There were so many good animated movies back then, my favorites were prince of egypt and of course Sinbad
Ironic both made by dreamworks
I remember getting this movie on VHS from my library as a kid, and literally staying up all night watching it over and over. First time I stayed up from dusk till dawn.
With the original version it is flawed but did have an easy fix by giving the three characters more connection to one another and having marina being shown as being a better statesman of the three while proteus is the paragon of virtue and Sinbad the rogue with a heart. That said I do prefer the version we got it was much better.
Sinbad is a perfect name for protagonist, being a double-sided pun (Sin=bad, Sin?bad) makes it a very fitting detail.
Michelle Pfeiffer as Eris: Being honest, every time she speaks, I get a semi.
Proteus: Ultimate Wingman. An absolute Legend.
This is one of the movies I periodically remember just long enough to add to my must aquire list
I have been writing a story since I was like 7 so I completely and painfully understand the feeling of not wanting anyone to change your story because it's as much a part of you as it is like your baby, it's honestly scary thinking about how someone else may view your work cuz if they don't like it then it's personal, even if it's really not at all personal, it feels so damn personal
Oh man, this video is a blast from the past for me. I loved this movie as a kid, had it on DVD. At some point, it disappeared, and the movie kinda fell out of my head somehow, and I never saw or heard about it again. Glad to be reunited with the memory of this movie
and that's why I wanna explore Poly relationships in my stories. Like the innitial thing could be "wait I love this person... but I also love this other person!" but then they all end up together and it shifts to the complicated nature of showing love to each other at once. Instead of being some sort of fanfiction where "see? They ALL fuck and it's super hot and they all make out and also have drAMAAAA~ and-" instead it would be a realistic and mature conversation of showing multiple people being in love with each other and how do they navigate that? ANYWAY! Great video dude, I really love your stuff :)
Old deamworks excelled at making stories about bros.
i didn't know there were so many other fans of this movie till now, i grew up watching this movie and have rewatched it hundreds of times by now. i've always loved it and it made me happy to hear a video essay talking about how great it is
on the subject of demonstrating and learning morality, theres also the matter of the Final Question going from "dO yUo LovE maRIna??" to
"if you don't get the book will you still go back to Syracuse and choose an honorable death over the life of an oathbreaker?"
my inner editor's eyes rolled to the back of her head when you said that was the question of the script he was so defensive of, like maybe good at the time but also -
[points at that scene]
Idris Elba voice: you..... you keep talking
I can’t wait for when you eventually touch on Treasure Planet
I haven't watch Sinbad in years and back then it's a great movie that still holds up to this day that I perfer the final cut that the original one,it's a shame that it didn't receive well,but mature story and cartoons like Atlantis,Treasure Planet,and El Dorado are becoming more popular now that ever that we need it back,like movies like Megamind and Norbit since those movies have become better over time.
Bro I just discovered your videos today, a couple of hours ago. And I have already learned sooo much about writing and storytelling. Thank you, keep up what you're doing, because it's excellent.
Sinbad is on regular rotation in our household. Its gorgeous and underrated.
I love you so much for this! I mean, I love almost all your content, but I've been obsessed with Eris ever since rewatching that movie in the beginning of the year. Also, I should be sleeping rn but who needs that?
I can't believe how it turned from a great analysis and a new movie for me, into some woke stuff. I would interpret the story as written from a male perspective or from a person competing with a good friend for a future partner perspective and the 3 people are sad the situation IS like this, and the solution is there, one of them can leave the place wishing the other two success. And it's just not for Marina to make a move, unless it's she who leaves both the persons she supports, perhaps the two friends cannot solve it themselves and would just continue this suffering forever, but they are not established as two idiots. And now that I think about it, Sinbad is established as the only traveler of them, so it just falls into place.
This was one of my favorite animated movies when I was a kid. The pacing is definitely off, but the sirens, Marinna being treated like a person, and... Ahem.. Eres. This movie was so good.
Oh yes I remember this movie when I was a kid, I loved it, the action was awesome as were the settings and set pieces. And yeah definitely had some sort of awakening with it, and to this day Eris’ leitmotif tune still makes me feel some sort of way
honestly I still don’t understand how Sinbad could be largely unphased by Eris’s presence during that first encounter, I mean who cares about the whole world when she’s right there 😂
I actually love that in the original, the Marina character becomes Queen. I respect Savagebooks opinion when he says she didn't do anything to deserve it, but he's not thinking about it as the writer might have intended.
Savage seems to assume the Book of Fates watched the movie with the rest of us and at the end was like, "wow...I have to choose between these three people, who should become the next monarch of Syracuse!" 😅
No. The Book of Fates would have already determined the monarch because, well, FATE. Marina is an ambassador and apparently so significant of one, that she is trusted to be the escorter of the Book of Fates. That's a big deal. On top of that, if she is willing to travel to TARTARUS to get it back, there's no telling the badass shit this woman has done in her life and during her tenure as an ambassador. As a worldbuilder, I had to share this perspective. Perhaps Terry Rossier wasn't even thinking this deep into it but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I mean, Jasmine (Aladdin) declares boldly: I am not a prize to be won!
Let's give the guy some credit
With all that said, I do believe that DreamWorks' version is a better story for children but the original makes me think of the hard and complex kind of situations we can find ourselves in 🤷🏿♂️
man, let me just say
sinbad its probably my favorite animated movie,
i have so much love for this shit
and somehow, everytime i comment with someone about it, no one seems to have seen it
it truly breaks my heart
so, when i saw this video on my recommendations tab
it was like having the discussion i always wanted to have with my friends
much luv to u from brazil, bro
thanks!
I saw it in theaters. I was eight years old when it was released. I rewatched two years ago. I hadn’t seen it in a while, but I probably enjoyed it even more as an adult.
Yaaaaaas. You’re essay is purrrrfect! The fact that Melina is allowed to pick her own destiny is what makes this movie. The final cut of film is my preferred version. And thank you for the shank to GOT final season. Well deserved. You could even extend that “spontaneous” storytelling to a certain Star Wars film.
I feel sorry for you that you think a person can't fall in love a second time in their life, that this somehow de-values their love. +1 for Terry's version.
Sinbad, Treasure Planet, Atlantis, El Dorado, Spirit, Titan A.E. are all seriously underrated gems of movies. The story telling, the animation, the voices, the soundtracks, they are all amazing.
You have great taste!
@@AndreNitroX I have always liked the underrated movies. They tend to be gems.
@@hokutoulrik7345 very true. have you ever seen watershipdown, last unicorn, ringing bell and the goblin princess?
@@AndreNitroX last unicorn yes.
@@hokutoulrik7345 i recommend the others, they are all quite dark animated films but fun.
Man. I just love everything about the way you make your videos. Keep going!
This probably your best video yet. Thanks for reminding me how wonderful this movie is