Paladin Subclasses Ranked: D&D
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
8:26 The Paladin
23:47 Oath of Conquest
31:40 Oath of Devotion
35:55 Oath of Glory
40:44 Oath of Redemption
47:31 Oath of the Ancients
51:48 Oath of the Crown
54:43 Oath of the Watchers
58:51 Oath of Vengeance
1:02:14 Oathbreaker
1:06:35 Wrap-up
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This is real analysis, the fact that you weight the lower level attributes higher is so important. The amount of people that focus on 14th level abilities and higher blow my mind.
That and abilities from lower levels are more viable for multiclassing making them better for higher levels as well due to that option.
@@Votuse yeah.
Anything a class/subclass offers at or before level 3, in my mind, is more important than anything else, since those decide the things a character can count on, and that can be splashed onto other builds.
Anything past level 3, and definitely past 5 gets shaky. Short of a few carefully planned dual class builds, those are only things a character who is pretty defined by the class is going to get, and start to enter the realm of characters not actually achieving those goals, even if everything goes well.
Like, my favorite example, Monk 2. Monk 2 isn't very good, but, it's only two levels for a nonmagical, basic 10 move speed. If that 10 move speed is what makes your character work, it's a dip that's feasible and doesn't detract too much from whatever else your character wants, in short or long term.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 This is exactly why when I plan on dual classed multiclasses that have big investment into both classes to to at least try and mimic the powerspikes that regular single-classing gets you
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 As a quick example, my favorite multiclass is any combination of a 9 Fighter and 11 Barbarian but they always start off going into 6 barbarian and then 3 fighter. Depending on the fighter subclass, the 3 levels of Fighter will more than make up for the loss of 7-9 barbarian features
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 A 2 level dip when you can take mobile?
Ah yes, the paladin: where an unoptimized one without a subclass, just the base class, is still stronger than a perfectly optimized monk.
Straight up punches way harder than one too! (If you add a little smite). 😆
@@probablythedm1669 Seriously! A level 11 Monk does 1d8+Dex with a punch and a level 11 Paladin does Str+1d8 radiant with a punch. The Monk gets 3 attacks (4 if they spend a Ki), but the Paladin can also expend a spell slot on a confirmed hit to boost their damage by a minimum of 2d8. Without a weapon a Paladin can do just about as much damage as a Monk. That's how bad Monks are.
@@probablythedm1669 Technically you can't smite on punches according to sage advice. Smite adds to the weapon damage, and fists are not weapons.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath from what I've read you can smite on an unarmed attack if you attack with a natural weapon, so it should be possible for an Aarakocra, Centaur, Dhampir, Leonin, Lizardfolk, Minotaur, Satyr, Shifter - Longtooth, Simic hybrid - with Grappling Appendages, Tabaxi, or Tortle. Then again, it's a weapon attack then (I think) and not an unarmed attack...
So, strictly speaking, I guess the monk is still the second best at punching (since fighters get the unarmed fighting style, which deals 1d8+STR at level 1)?
@@probablythedm1669 Monk is still #1 at punching because their unarmed strikes count as magical for bypassing resistances.
(That said, doesn't mean focusing on unarmed strikes is a good idea for a monk. On a monk, weapon attacks tend to deal about 30%-50% more damage than their unarmed strikes depending on level and magic weapons available).
I'm playing a Conquest Paladin now in a Curse of Strahd campaign. With a certain sword we've acquired, the character is basically Darth Vader. With the extra Fear mechanics a certain building filled with Druids really ended up feeling like the hallway scene from Rogue One!
How did you find the fear based effects in that campaign against the enemy types? That's the one thing that holds me back in conquest paladin is that fear is resisted a reasonable amount
@@larryBOTS1 That is true and given the nature of the enemies in Curse of Strahd, you will probably run into more than are resistant to it than not. But I found it an excellent tool in my arsenal. Melee and Smite get bonuses for Undead, and when there are living opponents then the Fear has been a cool tool to use. I think I've only used it twice though, and only one of those times did it basically end the encounter. But having a potential to do that is pretty awesome. I have used the +10 hit more often, turning misses into hits on big bads that NEED to eat a FULL Smite ASAP. Also, the Spiritual Weapon has put in some work in some of the bigger fights, so I have found it to be a much better spell than Treantmonk gave it credit for (in my experience so far).
@@wraithalcon Not to spoil the content but almost anything that matters is immune to both fear and cannot be turned.
@@nonenone4461 Of course. The Fear effect can trivialize other encounters leading up to that one though. If you play in games where you can not rest at your leisure, then conserving the party's resources by potentially taking out a small fight with this ability can save those resources for later encounters. In terms of Action Economy, if Fear can take out at least 1 enemy for 2 rounds then it is a win. Tagging multiple enemies for multiple rounds can save Spell Slots, HP, and Charged Items.
Nice. I can really see that.
As a DM, I love Divine Sense. Sure, it also tells you if an area is consecrated or desecrated, which is relatively minor RAW. But I love preparing cool things to reveal to Paladins who use this - and since it's worded to give kind of vague information, it can be amazing for building mystery.
Whether it's about a cursed mansion puppeted by dark entities, a dank cellar where demons have been summoned every full moon for generations, or a cavern carefully warded against interference from celestial forces, Divine Sense lets me dole out the exact amount of information I think will excite my players the most about whatever I have planned for them next!
Also, note that as written, noticing the presence of strong good and evil are subject to neither the action nor cover restrictions. RAW, if the paladin smells something foul that no-one else does, it tells you there's "strong evil" somewhere nearby even if it doesn't give you specifics like what or location, but that's enough info to get everyone to draw weapons and be ready for an ambush.
But, don't forget, some OFFICIAL Wizards campaigns outright ban the use of Divine Sense. I've basically written it off as a useful ability for this reason.
Ironically oath of redemption is probably the best paladin at fighting against other paladins.
Redempdion: A paladin who realized that he lived a life of slaying goblins and kicking ass, so he vowed to dedicate himself to be the shield of the party, gaining protective and abjurative abilities...
*WICH THEY USE TO SLAY MORE GOBLINS AND KICK MORE ASS*
It's funny how well the Oath of Redemption is suited to the standard rip and tear playstyle of Paladins.
Thematically though, they might be one of the best candidates for Blessed Warrior builds to focus on Charisma.
I've always found the Devotion Paladin's Aura of Devotion to be exceptionally powerful. There are many spells that, while not charm effects, explicitly do not work if the character can't be charmed. Sleep can put someone down without a saving throw, Dominate Person can be devastating if the wrong person gets targeted, and Mass Suggestion can wipe the party in the right circumstances. Powerful mid to late game enemies are often dangerous because of these tactics, and Aura of Devotion shuts them all down.
I have to say I appreciate how you rank the earlier levels as more important. Every build and ranking always does an overall lv20 and most games at least that I've played are lucky to reach 5th.
Only had one reach 9th (kinda fast leveling) and one 11, but wasn't even dnd.
All these 14th and cap stone abilities may as well not exist for the majority of games.
I've been playing DnD since I was in college (over a decade) and I've never gotten past lvl 12.
@@seaperson5704 i never got the chance to play earlier editions. (Bought a bunch of books for 3.5 that never got used.) Did get to play Robotech all through highschool with a splash of Starwars.
Whoo... now I feel old haha.
I feel like this is really a YMMV option. I've been playing for years, and most of my games get at least to level 15.
Only a couple have gotten to 20, but still.
@@kyleflanagan963 Very much so. You are definitely in the minority with those numbers though.
@@kyleflanagan963 same for me. My friends and I worked around work and family and we all play on Tuesday for3-6 hours. We’ve played 4 total campaigns together (5 if you include current) 1 got to 20. 3 got to 17. One party wiped at 15 and we ended the campaign there (one of our friends didn’t make the best DM so we moved on to another campaign lol) and our current we are up to 12 now
I love oathbreaker's aura of hate reflavored as a mechanical implementation for cursed monster hunters like Simon Belmont or Guts.
Paladins are the strongest martial and probably the best class for a new player: good defense, good offense, different support options, healing. All in a straightforward package without trap options. Also, paladins are of the few classes that depending on the campaign could trivialize half the campaign, an oath of devotion paladin in CoS basically solves alone half the encounters including Strahd.
I would argue that paladins are best martials at levels 7-10, at 1-6 Barbarians perform way better and after 11 the fighter pain train comes online. Paladins have a lot of resources and features to remmember so they are not exactly new player friendly, but I agree that they can provide lots of opportunities and help to learn how to roleplay (since they have a vague requirement to be LG or NG).
@@MSDoL Barbarians are better tanks and Fighters eventually do more damage, but paladins are the more rounded and versatile. Are great for new players because while they could dip in spellcasting if it feels daunting they could reliably smite, also self healing is great for newbies.
@@Ciberbuster Barbarians also do significantly more damage at the levels 1-6, that is the other main reason they are my pick. This also allows them to control the battlefield by killing anyone besides the BBEG in 1 to 2 turns. And I am speaking about new players from the experience of my friends, who started to DnD recently. Though their number isn't massive to prove that every new player is that way, they all struggle to remmember even 3-4 mechanics of their character, so paladins can be rough. Though I agree on the point you make, that they can just focus their attention on 1-2 mechanics and paladins allow it more naturally than most other classes.
They also get their magic at a pace that's easy for a new player to wrap their head around, and if they decide they don't care care spells? They're not "trapped" in class choice, because they can just turn their spell slots into smites.
Meh. I find Paladins are overpraised. they are a MAD class that have to decide on a direction but that people review them like they're good at everything at once. I just spent weeks building different versions in preparation for a new campaign. They're balanced. They aren't better. 5e is well designed that way.
Probably the best way I’ve seen to use Sacred Weapon on a Devotion Paladin is as a substitute for a ranged attack. When you start the combat, things are spread out, and you don’t have the mobility to get into melee, boosting your weapon can be a much more effective option than just hurling a javelin.
If he had a horse, but yeah that's basically when I would use it. If you don't have magically enhanced str you might use it to negate the -5 of gwm
exactly; the situation where you just don't have an enemy in range actually comes up sometimes and is perfect for this.
I use this in tandem to cast a buff spell as a bonus action, like shield of faith or divine favor. Ex: Horde of zombies approaching? Sacred weapon + divine favor + GWM means you'll likely gibb them on contact without them getting their undead fortitude.
I have a buddy who's going hexadin, leaning toward devotion paladin bc the channel divinity on top of hex warrior would basically let him double his attack modifier for that minute, which is insane
I made a similar comment before checking yours. I had that experience in a pirate themed campaing I was in: the party's paladin would always ready his sacred musket whenever a hostile ship approached us. It really caught everyone off guard the first time he did it and became one of the most memorable moments of the few games we played.
Vengeance Paladins get some very nice synergy with their Vow of Enmity. Advantage does one major thing besides increasing your chances to hit-- it also nearly doubles your chance of getting a Critical, which is nice on some classes, but *amazing* on a class that can Smite. If you really want to push the crit-fishing aspect, you can dip into Champion fighter or Hexblade, but even without that, giving a Paladin a higher chance to Crit can produce great results.
I played a elven accuracy dex based vengeance paladin with 3 levels of gloom stalker ranger and a scimitar of sharpness, would two weapon fight when I had a bonus action to spare. I was critting all the time. Ironically I would frequently forget to divine smite on them because I was rolling so many dice. Had a lot of fun with that character.
The one thing that is great with Crown and Redemption paladin aura is that it is amazing for keeping your Find Steed mount alive
Conq's Armor of Agathy's applies to the steed as well (I think)
@@rlira0908 i see no reason why it would?
@@nathankiefer9323 Find Steed allows any spell that you cast that targets only you to also affect your steed while you are mounted.
"Never saw a player forced to play a subclassless paladin because hey broke their oath"
Good for you. My DM twisted the oath of devotion to "what this god says is right and law" and wanted to create artifical drama for the sake of grimdark.
This is one of the reasons I've always loved playing a Paladin in a new table. When DMs try to dick me like this I get to talk about ethical theory (might as well put those college classes to use lol). In this case, what one god says is right and law doesn't necessarily mean so, there are evil gods, and some god saying something isn't a law - particularly to people that don't tailor their laws around religion. If said Paladin doesn't make their oath to that god, then what that god ethically thinks, let alone says (because manipulation exists) doesn't matter.
You're upholding an oath, not a requirement to appease every good, neutral, evil, lawful, and chaotic greater diety all at the same time. But sure DM, tell me more about how following the ideals of fairness and a goodly god suddenly gets me hit with an evil-based subclass for not following the word of a god that doesn't apply to me. Need me to change alignment to Chaotic Evil since not following some rando god's word makes me non-Lawful too? Does my Paladin suddenly start breaking laws and selfishly dicking people over bc they don't simp every god out there?
Once you talk about the implications of these ethical requirements involved in these rulings with universality, the ridiculousness of them becomes extremely apparent.
@@anniedarkheart5224 you asume DMs out there dont use the "Im teh DM fuck you thats why" logic.
Which VERY MUCH undercuts the fun whenever you are playing a character that gets its power from an outside source
I can't imagine playing with a subhuman dm and deciding not to leave on the spot.
@@flaisemoroz7800 the amount of "subhuman DMs" I have found is a very high % of the total number of different DMs I played under. And there is even more that I just witnessed, but didnt actually paly under
@@texteel Did I assume that?
About Sacred Weapon, some encounters IMX begin with the Paladin outside of movement + melee range of any enemy. In cases like that, Sacred Weapon is a good one to pop in round 1, when you can't make a melee attack anyway.
Yeah that's fair, but I still think it should be a bonus action.
@@ulxtmx5018 , eh, I don't know about that. Sacred Weapon tends to get compared to Vow of Enmity because their to-hit bonuses tend to work out similarly mathematically. However, VoE only targets one enemy ever, while SW works against all enemies in the encounter. And also because SW isn't advantage, that means it stacks with any advantage from other sources and doesn't run into the possibility of it being rendered redundant as VoE sometimes does. With those advantages in mind, SW being an action is probably pretty fair.
Sacred Weapon also works very well with a ranged weapon. Since most Paladins have low dex scores, using a bow isn’t usually an option. But in encounters where it’s very difficult or impossible, or too dangerous to get in close, Sacred Weapon is a great way to make your Paladin still deal some decent damage at a range.
And this is why find steed is so important for a paladin.
@@Nickelback8469a strength paladin can easily use a javelin instead of a bow. 30/60 thrown weapon range, so the same as a hand crossbow, but uses the strength modifier for hit/damage
Had a campaign where my paladin and the party monk were never more than 10’ from each other in combat. The mono never failed a saving throw thanks to my aura and the damage I was doing thanks to his stunning strikes was fantastic!!
A quick point about Rebuke the Violent, it specifies that the enemy must damage your ally with an ATTACK. So you could not rebuke Finger of Death as it is a saving throw, not an attack.
Came here looking for this ☺️
Yeah, I noticed that thanks to this comment. Makes the feature a lot less useful. Which sucks because I just started a campaign to use it.
That is stupid and any good DM should allow it.
I find that most DM’s will allow you to get the devotion paladin channel divinity off before combat as a part of RP. Something like,
“I approach the hoard of zombies and I slowly draw my blade and say ‘I am (character name) blah blah blah and I will not allow you to leave.’ I flick my blade and use my channel divinity to make it shine bright light.”
I find this trick works pretty much every time.
I was just watching your fighter video again. I don’t know why your videos are kind of fun to watch over and over.
You ain’t the only one.
The less I get to play the more fun it is to hear discussions on options and mechanics I doubt I'll get to use 😂 though that could just be my reasoning
I feel like the charm immunity is very underrated. I have had my party wrecked too many times by mass suggestion to say no to charm immunity.
the Channel divinity sacred weapon is so good with a great weapon master too and at level 15 disadvantage attacks from like all the main dnd monsters ... excuse me !!
100% agree. Charm Immunity means immune to Dominate Person & Monster, Suggestion & Mass Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, any vampire charms, lots of bard spells, and then any other creature charm effects.
I'm playing a lvl 15 Devotion Paladin and cannot overstate how solid she is. Being immune to Charms and Fear effects, heavy armor 1h/shield, and paladin saves means the only way(s) to take me out are Int saves against stun, Power Word Stun, Maze, or massive damage on Dex saves
There are plenty of fights it will do nothing, but when it does something it's probably completely overturning an otherwise devastating encounter.
I imagine that the reason it's so underrated is because a lot of DMs know that charm effects would wreck their party, and so they just don't use them, so that their party can actually win. This may have deceived a lot of players into thinking that charm effects are rare, or not powerful.
@@logicseeker3770 You have no idea how many times i have been completely wrecked by a charm effect, i'm not even talking about aboleths, succubus or vampires who can all charm you for 24 hrs with no repeating save, but just enemy spell casters with mass suggestion and hypnotic pattern.
I used to play a Vengeance Paladin and maybe you're just a better DM but the majority of DMs I played him with he felt way better than B tier. A lot of DMs try to save time by making encounters more centered around one big bad guy and this Paladin just shreds that. At level 5, I was punching so far above the weight of the rest of the party, I was split off to fight a CR6 undead knight by myself while the rest of the group held off a group of fiends. I killed that guy in one round and then returned and basically saved the rest of my party from the fiends.
I think Paladin is the one class where you have to make use of the full encounter day length. The "15 minute adventuring day" style of DMing turns the Pally into an unstoppable monster
Agreed. Vengeance Paladins are the best boss killers in the game. Putting them in B Tier is ridiculous
flying speed
@@frungggg what about flying speed?
@@motokuchoma what can the paladin do?
@@frungggg did you realize i can play a winged tiefling or aaracokra?
To me Devotion is very interesting since it's like silver bullet class. It has really hard counters to narrow problems, but it has a lot of them so as long as one of their counters is relevant, they shoot up to being very scary. If none are applicable, they end up fairly ho hum. Enemies with mind control? Just say no. Undead or fiend hordes, not a chance. Half the extraplanar enemies post lvl 15? Untouchable. Fighting a Giant and...well they can hit more accurately with a GWM build. That's actually not awful in and of itself anyways.
@@sharkforce8147 Definitely, which is why I like the aura of devotion. It's rather specific, but it totally shuts down something that could totally ruin you.
@@sharkforce8147
SHARK FORCE
GO!
Ah, I got nothing, I just wanted to say that. It’s a dope name.
With Inspiring Smite on Oath of Glory, it's 2d8+paladin level divided up how you like amongst the party, not 2d8+paladin level for the whole party. Still not a bad feature either way, but definitely on the weaker side of features that grant temporary hitpoints.
It's really better suited to direct it all on one ally or yourself for a nice chunk of Temp HP. Trying to spread it amongst even a small party won't do much.
The way I adjusted it in my games, I have it give temporary HP equal to the damage of the Divine Smite before resistances or vulnerabilities + your Paladin Level. So you can spread it to party members more effectively or give a bonkers amount of Temp HP to one person, even more so if you crit.
Is that a bit much? Maybe. But it's fun, and you have an additional tactical choice there. Wait for a Smite crit and gain a massive bonus
To be clear, it is still decent for in-combat temporary hit points.
Oath of conquest is possibly my favorite. I hate that so many things are immune to fear so i make it my goal to try and find anything that can help with that.
Regarding Oath of the Crown, in my experience this Channel Divinity is a bit more useful than that. I often managed to either prevent “flankers” from getting to our backline or stop their backline from escaping, since we decided to interpret that it works on teleports or ANY movement. It also has no duration. And the other part is situationally comparable to healing word or mass healing word - there’s actually very few options as far as bonus action healing at range goes in the game. Granted, I was a Sorcadin in my playthrough, so using Channel Divinity to convert into a spell slot was more valuable to me (for Mirror Image, casting Metamagic’d spells), hence the more sitational nature of it’s main uses ended up actually being a boon.
Edit: I still wouldn’t put it above B, though
Turn the tide is much worse than healing word. Since it requires the target to hear you.
Unconscious allies at 0 HP can not hear you.
Bringing up unconscious allies is the best use of (mass) healing word.
I think the Channel is very campaign and map dependent. Most of my experience has been in small maps where 30 ft is almost if not the entire battlefield, so the only way the front line could actually shield the back line would be for them to stand on total opposite sides of the map, which isn't really practical. In a large open battlefield, where the back line can pull away to further than 30 feet, it does become a lot more useful.
While I agree, it’s useful in certain circumstances and the spell list is very good topped by Spirit Guardians
@@Melorific Unconscious characters can still hear, it does not say that they cannot hear or are deafened in Appendix A. If your DM (like mine did once) rules that you cannot bring up downed enemies they're just plain wrong and you should show them the studies/reports of people in comas who were able to hear and later remember conversations that took place in their presence.
@@Ivaneus27 "An unconscious creature is incapacitated, can't move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings."
Unaware of its surroundings. In other words, you're not seeing or hearing anything.
You are the one plain wrong here.
Being knocked out to an inch of your life also isn't the same as being in a coma.
One note: with Redemption's Rebuke the Violent channel divinity option, it has to be an attack, not a saving-throw spell like your example Finger of Death. So pretty good against T-Rexes, giants and the like, but it's even rarer to see single big instances than you mentioned.
Its stupid wording and any good DM should allow you to take that damage, especially since it also can’t be reduced, which is also a stupid stipulation.
No other Dnd youtube channel comes close to the quality and clarity of the information you provide with such a practical and realistically applicable approach. Thank you for all that you do!
In summary- "But your still a Paladin, sooo 'B' tier"
At first i was like no way.. Then i kept LISTENING and i couldn't un hear it. "But its okay you're a paladin." I was like jesus christ.
Kinda defeats the entire purpose of a Subclass ranking list if you give bonuses for base class. :P
@@schwann145 It's because he's ranking them alongside ALL the subclasses in the game in terms of power level. If you want to see people just rank the subclasses of the individual class by themselves watch the dungeon dudes.
@@schwann145 Disagree, in fact, I think just ranking how good a sub class is without the baseclass is ridiculous.
Seriously, how is that information usefull to anyone
Watchers to me is a great example of the phrase "An inch wise but a mile deep". I see it as really narrowly focused on dealing with a few specific creature types and situations but it's really, REALLY good at dealing with those situations.
I get the impression watchers is the opposite of how you describe it. Their CD for advantage on wis/int/cha saves has tons of applications with Wisdom being the second most common saving throw, and they have the most versatile Turn CD since it targets fey, fiends, celestials, aberrations, and elementals, whereas most other subclases only get to turn 2 types of creatures. Also watcher aura of proficiency bonus to initiative is universally good
Yeah, I think the redemption is one of those subclasses that starts weak and gets better the more levels you have in it. It is probably one of the strongest subclasses in late tier 3 to tier 4 with one of the strongest defensive capstones in the game. But limiting it to level 12 just really hurts its chances.
Great in-depth analysis 🧐 on the Paladin. This does an excellent job and delineating the differences in the subclasses
Best guide so far. I also appreciate your mental process!
Nice!! One of my favorite class in D&D. Such a iconic image of a Crusader/Templar Knight.
Paladin is such a great class. Bard/Paladin is both a good multiclass, and a really fun one thematically.
I always thought Oath of Glory’s movement bonus was lame.
However, I’ve played about five Paladins and each time, I wished that I could move faster. Oath of Glory is actually rather useful, more than what it seems at first glance.
I switched Oaths from Conquest to Watchers in my campaign because everything was immune to frighten and never looked back. Watchers is excellent and I'm glad to see it get some love.
That is what turned me away from conquest. It seems like it would be amazing early on but if you started fighting daemons and the like in the mid and later game seems the subclass would fail. Still a paladin though so still good.
@@nathanaelpoole1369 Yeah, our campaign is about planar travel and fiends are the main enemy, so it wasn't doing too much for me. Paladin will always be good, but definitely hinges on campaigns more than other classes I've played.
@@remyb6854 Because that's not what happened. Subclasses don't come with built in back stories lol. Thank you for trying to gatekeep something so random, though, groups must love you.
breaks my heart that Augury isn't on Watchers, though I think without ritual casting it hurts. I think I just love Augury.
The Thumbnail had the correct Paladin tier list, there was no need to change it 😂
While I don't rank the watcher as high as you, I'm glad I watched this video for some perspective while writing my own article. The base paladin is so solid it was hard for me to sort out the exact order I wanted to put them in. You raised some good point as usual to help me break some ties =).
When you also account for tenets, watchers starts to look even better. Unlike most paladins that put roleplay restrictions on you or encourage risky/dumb decision makingnthe Watchers tenets just basically say PLAY SMART. Also, Treatmonk is 100% right that the aura of the sentinel is insanely good.
Great video
I feel like if you take pole arm master with vengeance it makes the 7th level Relentless Avenger very useful it allows you to kite a melee enemy.
i think, the problem with this, is that you can probably only get 1 turn of kiting with this at most. After that, they are gonna have enough movement to reach you even after the extra move, or just ignore you and go for someone else. Sentinel is still something you probably want with PAM, but then if you use a reach polearm, you don't benefit from the level 7 ability at all (unless they also have reach), because their speed is 0 anyways. I think it can be interesting in the case of a non-reach polearm + shield, and combined with sentinel though.
@@chopcooey I never actually thought about it like that, I might have to steal that idea. I am playing an Veng. Paladin with PAM rn and I wanna try out your idea.
@@christianmartinez442 Cool. vengeance is a special one, because first, PAM is a must for level 7, no questions. But then there is 2 options. Reach vs 1-hand+shield. For the reach option, sentinel steps on the toes of level 7, so might as well pick another subclass for this. So we might get reach without sentinel and get GWM for the really good synergy with vow of enmity. The level 7 will sorta fill in for the sentinel part while not being as good but we save a feat. On the other hand, 1-hand+shield doesn't strictly require sentinel either, but allows you to do PAM+sentinel without reach, which is pretty unique. It's much better against ranged enemies than a reach weapon because they get stuck at 5ft of you with sentinel, rather than 10 ft where they wouldn't suffer disadvantage, so you get better use of sentinel than with reach in those cases. And you get +2AC. The already intensive reaction enable you to move away from the interception fighting style if you were going for that, and while you don't have as high damage as a GWM build, you get to use a better fighting style (dueling), and better synergy with improved smite at level 11 (extra dice on a -5 attack is anti-synergy), and hunter's mark/divine favor.
in terms of damage, i made a calculation to compare the raw damage of 2h polearm vs 1h at level 11 with +8 to-hit for an enemy with 16AC, which arguably is the kind of target you would seek for vow of enmity. Without advantage, GWM polearm has 5% more damage, and 25% with advantage. Of course the difference would be higher with enemies with lower AC. An enemy with 12AC, GWM gets 21% extra damage and 70% if you have advantage. Of course an enemy with low AC tends to not be worth the channel divinity, but depending on the party you can get other sources of advantage. This highlights the thing you get from going 2h, at the cost of 1 feat, +2 AC, and potential magic item slot on your shield.
@@remyb6854 unfortunately, relentless avenger does not work with warcaster. It allows to cast a spell in place of an OA, but relentless avenger says "when you hit a creature with an OA". You don't hit an enemy with an OA, because warcaster allows you to use your reaction to cast a spell instead of the OA. Same reason why you can't use the feature from sentinel and warcaster at the same time.
I really enjoy these.
This channel inspires me to keep playing dmd despite how hard it's getting to get a free day off with my buddies
Oath of Conquest 6 with some levels in Sorcerer for quicken spell(and more slots) really makes their oath spells sing
I think the oath of glory is the way that the Champion was intended to be like but succeeds in every aspect. I've played a Glory Paladin and let me tell you, those little bonuses ended up being more impactful over the course of the entire campaign than other features from my friends' characters. Little bonuses that are used in a lot of situations are more valuable than strong abilities that get used far less often over the course of the entire campaign but, that's my opinion. Feel free to comment what you think. I'm open to discuss on this.
I love to hear the kind words about the Conquest Paladin. Not only is it interesting that the subclass revolves around the fear mechanic, but it also becomes a really cool archetype of a tanky team support controller.
Obviously it won't be as good of a controller as a full caster dedicated to control, but would a wizard with access to healing as potent as lay on hands and control as strong as the fear kit be nearly as tanky, either in hit points, AC, or saving throws?
I even like it as a Charisma priority 1 paladin, where you crank it to 20 and even out your CON with Resilient and tack on a saving throw proficiency. Plus on top of that, you still have strong control/debuff options against foes immune to fear, like Hold Person, Command, Bestow Curse, and Banishment. And fearing an enemy down to 0 speed and then knocking them prone is just objectively fun to do.
Fun and effective as a party face, great flavor and mechanics, and a very different vibe from other paladins in both playstyle and RP. Love this subclass.
I know it's impossible for this kind of list, but I do think a lot of players do tend to pick classes and subclasses based on what type of campaign they know they are doing. For example, a player who really wants to be a paladin might pick Oath of the Ancients if they know they are doing a Feywild campaign. All of a sudden that horrible 3rd level Channel Divinity isn't so bad.
A small positive with Sacred Weapon, the Oath of Devotion's Channel Divinnity option, is that it's not limited to meele weapons, which can be quite useful when meele isn't the best option, specially if you're playing with a dex based paladin. That came up in a pirate themed campaing I was in: the party's paladin would always ready his sacred musket whenever a hostile ship approached us.
I absolutely love this channel. It’s so refreshing to listen to someone use a pragmatic approach rather than hive mind mentality when discussing these subclasses.
This series has been so much fun and I look forward to every episode.
Thank you so much for putting in all this work, it DEFINITLY shows!
Loving this analysis. I am personally starting a campaign as a Eladrin Paladin (Oath of the Ancients), where I will be focusing on using Spring seasonal for Eladrin as a way to engage/disengage myself or my allies and having the addition of Misty Step will make for both in-combat and out-of-combat shenanigans! I am super excited!
Awesome, just what I expected. I really liked that you kept emphasizing how much the strong base class helps keep the subclasses useful. I really think this is core to the Paladin's success in 5e.
Regardless of the prevalence of hate, I actually expect the Ranger to show a similar spread, just a little bit lower (smite really fills a lot of gaps).
Going to disagree on ranger. I expect ranger to have a pretty wide spread. Should be a similar spread to barbarian or maybe fighter.
Paladin manages a very narrow spread cause even the worst paladin has aura of protection, can cast find steed to have 60 movement, gets lay on hands, gets smite, gets a reasonable tier 3 power boost in improved divine smite, and can use its channel divinity to get a spell slot back.
The worst ranger is...a half-caster with extra attack, some skill checks, and not much of a tier 3 power boost. (The level 11 ranger ability which serves as a tier 3 power spike is...a subclass ability, some of which are almost as good as fighter's third attack, and some of which...are okay but not really what we would expect out of a tier 3 power boost).
I could see the worst rangers ending up as low as E tier (having a lot of the same struggles as weaker barbarian subclasses due to having underwhelming tier 3 power boosts) and on the opposite end of the spectrum maybe one or two rangers I could see creeping into B-tier.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath you may be right, I can't find fault with any of the facts you lay out. I disagree with the conclusions though. I think that the Rangers will lean far more heavily on their casting, and accordingly their spell list is a lot stronger. Once past the fact that they don't get smite, their lower level features are usually better than Paladins (admittedly, smite is a big feature to hand wave). This means that they play very differently, and don't really compare apples to apples. I do think, though, that their weaknesses fall exactly into that level range which Chris is least concerned with, and that their strengths fall exactly where Chris's greatest focus lies.
That's why my conclusion is different, even though I agree with each of the facts that you bring up.
I could see the Monster Slayer being E-tier and maybe the Hunter as well. Both of those subclasses' tier 3 boosts rather suck.
OTOH, Gloom Stalker likely creeps into B-tier, and Horizon Walker possibly does.
I'll assume Treantmonk is going to rate the Beast Master based on its Tasha's improvements, in which case it should be a solid C.
@@tiradegrandmarshal we'll see... I think some of the "best" are going to be shown to be mostly hype, and some of the "worst" are going to be shown to deliver better than is generally accepted. Chris is always very methodical in how he presents both assets and deficits. I'm never surprised by his facts, but he often sees more than I do when it comes to conclusions.
@@tiradegrandmarshal I expect him to just have beastmaster on the tier list twice, once for the PhB version, and once for the Tasha's version. No way he gives up a perfectly good opportunity to dunk on PhB beastmaster.
For Oathbreaker (or my reskinned version of it, Oath of Death), I'd reword the "Any Fiends and Undead" from Aura of Hate to "Allied Fiends and Undead", and add in Tieflings (due to their fiendish ancestry), as well as the Dhampirs and Reborn from Ravenloft due to their undead natures, not to mention the Hollow Ones from Wildemount for a similar reason.
Makes sense to change the feature like this because as Oathbreaker is written, it’s not really intended for players as much for villains who would ally themselves with fiends and undead. If you let a player pick it (or a reflavored version of it) you might as well alter the villainous features to better fit the dark (but not evil) paladin who’s using it
@@arikaaa69 Funny enough, in this D&D-themed interactive I'm part of, I did make an Oath of Death Paladin - farm boy that became an Adventurer, went to a school for it, gets some skeleton minions (Jim, Jeb, and Juanita - don't ask how I came up with those names), and said minions, due to how he treats them, are so loyal, that during one job, when he has entered a place of ill-repute looking for someone (only to find out that the place is run by sucubi that drain folks of their life forces) and ends up captured and gagged, they basically summon themselves due to his life being in danger, take his captors by surprise, and send them back to where they belong.
i evaluate Conquest paladin very differently now, it will be my next paladin character for sure. Paladins are super broken, yet so balanced. I wish there were more classes like this
One thing just to consider with features like The Conqueror is that all those features require saving throws, and the paladin usually won't have as high a DC as full casters. So those enemies are more likely to resist.
Of course, Hexblade Conqueror turns you into Sinestro with full-caster DC levels to terrify everyone, fire hardlight blasts, and smile in smug superiority as you hack the huddling masses to pieces.
Hexadin is surely my 2nd favorite build for sheer creativity of roleplay bolstered by the mechanics, topped only by the pure shennanigans of The Voice from Beyond.
Loving this series and very much looking forward to next week’s episode! I’m curious how you’ll handle the base class. Will you differentiate between PHB and Tasha’s Rangers or just allow all class features as either/or? And will you cover both versions of Beast Master?
What I would've really liked to see out of Glory Paladin was to make Inspiring Smite give Temp HP equal to the damage dealt by the Smite + your Paladin Level. It would've made it way more thematic, and would've allowed it to scale way better and be a superstar feature on a crit.
Its level 7 aura really needed to be the same size as all other Paladin auras, too. A 10' bonus to speed isn't so good that it needed to be any smaller than the rest.
@@tiradegrandmarshal at least glory is definitely a top pick for a mounted build or a grappling build
Also weird that it uses a bonus action after you’ve hit. I would have either made it a reaction or just use no unit of action economy.
something I think you missed is that the control undead channel divinity can be refreshed and you can get channel divinity on a short rest. I honestly believe this is stronger than the School of Necromancy Command Undead that you get at LvL 14 and get this at LvL 3
You are the first person I have watched that didn't rank vengeance as the overwhelming best subclass for a paladin
When the enemy lich drops a twin finger of death on your wizard, he's glad you went Ancients.
Ancients can be exceptionally good in a campaign that's a bit more RP focused where you tend to fight a lot of humanoids, because spells will come up a lot. But as Chris says, it can be very disappointing in a dungeon crawl where none of the monsters use spells.
HAHA! Thanks for ranking Conquest an A. My last long term PC was a conquest with the 1 level hex dip. A true hub of the party.
Oath of Conquest is A LOT of fun to play. If you want to play someone who strolls onto the battlefield with a presence like Darth Vader, that's your build. I played a Tiefling Conquest Paladin of Asmodeus in a campaign and their fear aura turned a combat around that we thought was going to be a TPK. I think it pairs really well with Fallen Aasimar or a Dragonbourrn with the Dragon Fear feat.
I'd play and Oathbreaker if we had a Necromancer in the party. Although I'd probably talk to the DM about the 7th level aura ability. Not sure if it boosts enemies by design or if that's a bug.
I love how all the Oathbreaker features imply you committed some sort of great evil.
Conquest Paladin: I dunno, man. Maybe all this conquering isn't very good for everyone after all.
_BOOM_
Evil powers.
Crown's Turn The Tide would be so good if it didn't have the "that can hear you" clause then you could use it as a "mass rez" if your party was reduced to 0HP.
Really looking forward to the ranger breakdown. Interested in your opinion on the Horizon Walker. It's one of the least talked about subclasses, especially compared to beastmaster and gloomstalker, on opposite ends. I'm playing one in a long-running campaign as a melee build. The Planar Warrior ability was a consistent, reliable source of damage at low levels that I could use instead of Hunter’s Mark if I wanted to concentrate on a different spell or didn’t want to expend a precious spell slot. Alternatively, in a big combat against a powerful foe, I would Hunter’s Mark round 1, then Planar Warrior on subsequent rounds. The spell list is also very good and thematic, with spells like Misty Step and Haste. All around, the Horizon Walker feels like the ranger subclass best suited for melee, and the range limits on some abilities kind of cements that idea.
Edit: that's not even to mention the 11th level ability that gives you at-will teleport. 3 to 4 10ft teleports a round, along with their spell list, make the HW one of the best strikers in the game. They're nearly impossible to pin down, whether through magical or mundane methods.
Conquest paladins w/ reach weapons are SO devastating. Enemies w/o reach or range can't even attack you once frightened. My lawful evil conquest paladin of Loviatar uses a whip and shield and just owns the battlefield. She's my favorite character by far, both in combat and roleplaying.
Kinky
@@ben5056 You bet she is. Loviatar's basically the matron goddess of dominatrices. Give my pally a few minutes alone w/ a prisoner and she'll get whatever information the party needs. Some prisoners even LIKE the interrogation. ;D
@@vaevictusasmadi84 eh eh reminds me of that priest in BG3, RP with the rest group must be amazing
Another option is just get 2-3 levels of undead warlock, get eldritch blast and go CHA build. Keep smite spellslots for more spells with higher DC anyways. With agonizing blast, it does around the same base damage as a regular extra attack anyways, except for things like GWM. But does not cost a full feat, has range and lets you wield a shield. Undead is perfect to proc enemy fear consistently.
@@chopcooey My group doesn't allow multi-classing, so that's a no-go. Besides, Loviatar worshippers actually loathe the undead because they don't feel pain.
I’m currently playing a path of redemption paladin and the “aura of the guardian” ability has saved my party members lives multiples times.
Most recently an enemy used telekinesis to throw a boulder at our already bloodied warlock and dealt 72 damage, enough to instantly kill (no death saves). My paladin used his aura to take all that damage himself and was left with 3 hp. This aura has saved all of our party members lives at least once since we got it 2 levels ago and I love it!
Relentless Avenger + Polearm Master lets you be a real menace on the front lines. Being able to make an AO and then reposition yourself really increases your melee threat range.
Combine it with the Sentinel feat and you can keep the enemy from reaching your back lines. Or take a step back and force them to re-enter your melee range every time they want to approach.
I personally love the Redemption’s ability to punish the DM for not focusing on you with their CD, and the +5 to persuasion for 10 is amazing for me as the perpetual face character, I even took skilled at 1 for expertise in Persuasion and I was rolling at like +11 to persuasion for important social checks at level 3, and I use it a lot outside of combat. The 7th level ability has helped me keep my party alive so many times and has made us almost un killable at times.
I almost exclusively play golden retriever boy himbo paladins and Redemption has been my favourite so far.
By the certain warlock multiclass, you meant Blade/Archfey for its short rest cooldown aoe fear/charm right? :P I know I know, that's not what you meant, but someone can dream!
As an oath breaker, the amount of times enemies benefit from your aura is tiny, and you have a CD to recruit them. You just stay back.. it’s definitely better than devotion. Also ancients behind glory is a bit suspect. Other than that a very good list.
Good to know. Has the potential friendly fire from the second channel ability been a concern?
Edit: On the oathbreaker, that is
One thing about paladin is that it's spell list is pretty limited. This means, to me anyway, more than most other classes the bonus spell lists really matter.
Spells only matter if the thing is alive 10 smites kill alot
I tend to think the exact opposite. From both as a DM and as a player the biggest factor that differs two paladins from one another is the tenets they will have to follow, and the aura they get at level 7. Most of the CD's don't really matter all that much & spell slots are always for smites in the first two tiers.
@@malmasterson3890 play a vengeance paladin. You have misty step and haste which radically improve your movement regardless of what other casters are up to. Check that against watchers or I think redemption who gets counter spell and you can see how differently these might feel to play.
I'm not trying to say the tenents and such don't matter, I'm just reiterating that spell lists make a big difference for half casters in general.
@@kaemonbonet4931 I agree that the vengeance paladin's spell list & CD's are good enough to make an exception, I think Treatmonk should've given them the A ranking, but even then it's not by much. I've seen & played many paladins over the course of 5e and the differences between them in combat is miniscule until you get the aura.
@@kaemonbonet4931other casters for 1 spell slot higher (and they get the 3rd level slot at the same time paladins get 2nd level) can have a phantom steed for 200ft of movement per round for an hour. That's way way way more benefit than misty step. Even if the steed is killed, it still lasts for another 10 rounds.
I generally agree, but I would rate Watcher as a high B and Vengeance as a low A. I don't rate the initiative bonus nearly as high as you do, and that free advantage channel divinity is really strong, especially with the ability to smite when you crit.
Initiative bonus is one of the most universally powerful features in the game.
Advantage on attacks vs one creature once per short rest can make the paladin more offensively powerful.
A bonus to initiative that fairly easily applies to the party makes the entire party offensively and defensively more powerful.
@@binolombardi That has not been my experience at the table. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but I don't think it's nearly that good.
@@MithranderGray you had the experience of your whole party getting +3 to +6 initiative every combat encounter and it didn’t go well?
@@MithranderGray Higher initiative means getting a huge AOE or battlefield control spell off before the enemy can do anything, or having your Rogue snipe off a very important enemy straight from the start of the battle. More time for maneuverability, for buffs and debuffs, all before then enemy can do anything to try and debilitate you and the party. Having a bonus to initiative is already strong for Swashbucklers, War Wizards, and Gloomstalkers; this gives it to the entire party. Your spellcasters and nukers will become best friends with you because of this aura.
@@GeminiOrion9 At level 7, with a +3 bonus on a d20 roll, there's only a 15% chance per person affected that aura will even change the initiative order. I've been running D&D for decades, I fully agree that going first is really strong. However a 15% chance that you might go first when you normally wouldn't means that I think their aura is good, but not great.
I will admit that I might feel differently with a level 18+ paladin with a 30' range and a +6 bonus, however my recently completed CoS game with a watcher pally PC ended at level 10 with a +4 at ten feet, and that's what I'm basing my opinions on. Sometimes it gave the party a definite edge by letting one or two PCs go slightly earlier, but more often it changed nothing. In my books, that's a high B even with a crap spell list and a weak channel divinity, but it's not an A.
Looking forward to your AAAAASA Wizard rankings
Not entirely certain if this is the right vid, but I have a MC question. I am planning on playing an orc conquest paladin. I will be starting with 16/12/13/8/10/16 for stats. Would it make sense to take Res (Con) at 4, and then a Cha bump at 8, and then take hexblade 1 at 9?
hellish rebuke is a reaction so its not that bad on a oathbreaker paladin?
tnx this really helping me to chose a good character.
tnx again
Conquest is easily one of my top three favourite subclasses in the entire game thematicaly and ability wise. Glad too see someone else say its good because I sometimes see it just being called a worse vengence paladin even though they fill different roles.
Man I played a Lawful Good Conquest of Lathander. THAT dude was a blast and telling enemies "Naw homie you stay here and die and your pals an watch." It's not so scary for the Squishies to stand in your aura when the baddies are frozen
I do personally tend to rate conquerors as a bit weaker than avengers, since the oath of conquest tends to distract resources & actions away from the paladin's typical strengths while oath of vengeance tends to builds on those existing strengths.
But conquest definitely isn't a weaker version OF vengeance. They're both on the edgier antihero end of paladin thematically, but mechanically they're absolutely doing their own things, and really play very differently.
They actually work pretty well together on the same team, with gimmicks that complement each other well rather than stepping on each others toes - the conqueror tanking & locking down mooks while the avenger focuses down bosses with burst damage.
Especially if both end up multiclassing, which is pretty typical for paladins in general, and the players coordinate their multiclassing choices to further diverge their ability sets.
Would Vengeance Paladins AOO movement be good on a PAM pally? allowing them to keep distance from the enemey?
My favorite pally is conquest, but that's for design feel and flavor. Mechanically conquest has good oath spells, CDs, and lvl 7 aura, so they're pretty solid all round. However, their mechanics tend to shore up pally weaknesses in aoe and control rather than build on the base class's strengths, while doing nothing for the pallies more notable weaknesses in positioning and range. Conqueror also leans heavily into wis save based frighten effects, which many enemies are immune or resistant to, or protected by strong wis saves. Plus the extra emphasis on cha is onerous on the already pretty MAD and feat starved pally.
All in all for this power ranking I'm predicting a B.
Looks like TM rates my favorite subclass higher than I do. To explain my lower rating:
Immune to frighten I find to be less of an impediment to Conquest than high wisdom saves and resistance. The designers know that wis save spells are completely debilitating so a great many enemies have high save bonuses such that you'l often find yourself throwing out fears and conquering presence on several enemies and being lucky to land the effect on even one. The CD allows additional saves every round, so even if you catch something, it won't be for long. And while relatively few enemies have resistance to frighten specifically, entire categories of enemies have spell resistance with works just the same against all of the conqueror's frighten effects. Conquest is not, for example, a great choice for descent to Avernus.
Conquest abilities don't come as 'free' as described in terms of build commitment, either. All of Conquest's native frighten effects allow saves based on your charisma, so if you want to make heavy use of them you need to prioritize charisma. Two of the main three conquest frighteners - Wrathful Smite and Fear - depend on concentration, which means you also need to prop up your concentration saves too, adding yet more pressure to your ASIs.
This need to prioritize charisma and concentration over weapon stat and martial feats mean that conquerors will typically be doing less damage than other paladin subclasses, significantly less when compared to more offensive subclasses like vengeance or oathbreaker.
You're also spending spell slots on control effects rather than smites & buffs, which does cut into some of the functionality a party paladin is expected to bring.
This is what I mean by conqueror is 'shoring up paladin weaknesses' in control and aoe, rather than 'building on paladin strengths' of healing/buffing party support and single target damage.
@@Malisteen All excellent points, I agree. The probability that the CD leads into the Aura is low. Further, you have to split your focus to lean into the effects that make this subclass dangerous.
IMO, the best Paladin subclasses are the ones that do not push you to increase CHA.
Treantmonk takes multiclassing into account for these lists, so Conquest's greater reliance on CHA is irrelevant due to Hexblade's existance.
@@NotYourAverageNothing I wouldn't say irrelevant because it still costs you with Extra Attack at 5th, and it delays both Spiritual Weapon and Fear by a level. Still, dipping Hexblade is probably the way to go with Conquest. Fair.
Try, a Level 5 Yuan-Ti Vengeance Paladin 1v1ing against a Succubus, while having less than 10hp, and only 1 Level 2 spell slot left (all others having been used up on ghosts). Ended up doing that, pretty much. Of course, there was another Succubus, and I was part of a team that included an Aarakocra Life Domain Cleric, a Fire Genasi Wizard, and a Mountain Dwarf Moon Druid - all of which where short on spell slots. Thankfully, while my guy went down three times (thank that amulet of Wound Closure for keeping me alive, and the Aarakocra for reviving me when they could, and summoning a pair of mastifs from the Cloak of Useful Things), my guy finally killed the one, and the other, who was rather bloodied by this point, decided that six on one wasn't fair, and thus fled.
Would you think that Aura of Hate applies to players who play Tiefling or Revenant? Or does the humanoid type over ride them being fiends/undead?
which paladin subclass for Wild beyond the Witchlight? I'm thinking the low level watcher ability that turns fey suddenly becomes very useful in the feywild. Thoughts?
For the Oath of Redemption, does the "Rebuke the Violent" Channel Divinity not work on AoE damage? I was thinking it would be perfect for counter-nuking a mage who just fireballed your party with 1/2 the damage they did to the party.
Always nice to get a present before the weekend, but I feel bad for not getting you anything.
In relation to the Redemption Paladin's emissary of peace ability is meant to be used to peacefully end a combat. Since one of their tenets is "Peace" it makes sense. Agree with your placement of the subclass wholeheartedly.
Great video. Off topic, can you explain when Gnome Cunning would kick in? I'm assuming a Dragon's Breath Weapon isn't magical (although is it purely biological?) but I'm assuming you can use Gnome Cunning to save vs a Dragon's fear effect?
Me, a Ranger, after seeing they're next and how he destroyed Monks: oh no, oh shit, oh fuck.
Rangers are mostly fine. It will probably be similar to barbarian or fighter
Tasha's improved Rangers quite a bit. They'll probably cluster around the C tier like the Fighter.
Yup. I personally believe that they were pretty underrated even before Tasha. So many people were focusing on lvl 1 features as if they are the only thing Ranger gets, which is obviously wrong. Yes, getting some useless features doesn't feel good, but overall I don't think Rangers were that worse than Fighters or Barbarians.
After Tasha they are perfectly fine I think.
I'm surprised Watchers ended up ranking at the same level as Conquest. From the review it sounds like a lot of emphasis was placed on its Initiative booster, but I really don't think it's enough to place on the same level as Conquest, which has a strong spell list, Channel Divinity, aura and some strong higher-level abilities. The review of Watchers seemed to just cut off after reading the level 7 ability stating that "It boosts initiative, it's awesome" without considering that the rest of its features are niche or unfavourable, and the spell list is pretty abysmal except for Counterspell (which isn't something Paladins can spam due to lower spell slots and lower levels of spell slots). IMHO while the Initiative boost is good it's at its most powerful in the first round of combat when it can let you get off an ambush, but isn't as useful after that or outside of combat, and it's not enough to close the overall gap between Conquest and Watchers.
No offense but I disagree.
I think you are right on the spell list. Conuqests spell list is Amazaing, but even without the additional spell lists Paladins have all the spells that they really need on their normal spell list, it is a minor factor for me although I know that spiritual Weapon and Armor of Agathys are amazing to have.
But as far as the features go, they are avout even, because Conquest starts out very strong, but becomes weaker and weaker in comparison as you lvl up, since a lit of enemies on higher lvls are immune to the frightened condition.
Watchers on the other hand is the exact opposite as far as scaling is concerned. It starrs out weaker, since its channel divinies will not always be useful throughout the early lvls and Watchers Will costs an action. However, as you lvl up saving throws targeting int/wis/cha saves become a lot more frequent and dangerous and can easily take several party members out by an instant. So as you lvl up the channel divinty becomes wxtrenely powerful and considering that you also have your aura of protection, you basically ensure that your party makes their mental saves almost all of the time and saving throws are the most dangerous issues in high tier play.
Also you underestimate the initistive bonus from its aura. At low lvls it does not have biggest impact, but as you lvl up winning initiative becomes really important. Most combazs do not last longer than 4-5 rounds and if you go first you often win it within the furst round, and may it be just because your spellcaster could get his fireball or AoE cc of before the enemies get the opportunity to act.
Always great analysis. Gotta disagree on watcher being higher than Conquest though, especially considering the extra weight you usually give to low level abilities. Conquest feels like it comes online much sooner.
I think my primary question with conquest is why you want to reduce frightened creatures’ speed to 0. They already can’t get closer to you, and if you’re properly positioned, your party/backline. In a game where enemies are overwhelmingly melee, that’s pretty much all the benefit, in fact it’s better if they can run away, since if they do, it’ll take them even more actions to start doing damage again. And if they’re frightened they likely aren’t your priority targets, that would be the enemies that can still take effective actions. I think it honestly falls into being a bit of a win more button. It feels really good and powerful to frighten a bunch of enemies and then lock them in place so you can mulch them, so you don’t notice that, in the long term, the fear alone would’ve been just as effective.
conquest is one of the most fun solo classes in dnd
absolute gas
Aura of protection is such an incredible class feature. I once played a bear totem barbarian specifically focused on grappling, and tanking, and I did a damn good job of being a high priority threat. It could barely compete with the potency of aura of protection at protecting my allies. On the other hand, a Conquest Paladin 3/Bladesinger 17 is my go to gish. That multiclass is a baked in gish thanks to armor of Agathys, divine smite (which Chris very effectively approached in the main chassis), and the whole bladesinger mix. The only downside is how MAD this happens to be, although the custom lineage, vanilla half-elf, and human all fulfill this well.
I love the redemption paladin. I like the spell list the most and the aura is great in a balanced out party with squishies and good healers. He also brings a ton roleplay wise, seeing this subclass so low hurts, I understand some of your reasoning tho- except that I believe that the aura is stronger than you say it is.
The first character I played was an oath of the watcher. I’m curious how this pans out.
Guess you chose right!
Hi! I like your videos a lot. Are you ever going to do anything on Pathfinder 2e?
I'm curious about that comment on Counterspell being a good add on the paladin spell list. Do most tables ignore the Xanathar's rule for having to spend a reaction to identify a spell being cast? or is the play just for players to spam counterspell to shutdown all enemy casting?
It's been my experience that the DM just says "bad guy is casting X spell" and then PC says, "wait, I want to counterspell that", so the need to id the spell before deciding to counter it just doesn't come up unless the DM specifically pauses after saying that a spell is being cast w/o id'ing it first (again, rare as it slows down the game). One downside to getting counterspell late as a paladin is that any casters you're facing can probably just counter your counter so that their big spell goes off anyway (unless you have another PC to counter their counter, ofc!)
Divine sense made our paladin spot a succubus acting as a "consultant" to a local lord.
It's not completely useless, but that's the only time in a 14 levels campaign it was used.
Yeah, it's a ribbon feature, as he said. When the situation comes up, it's useful, but 99% of the time it will never see play. But ribbon features are fine as long as they're accompanied by a more generally useful feature at the same level, such as Lay on Hands at the same Paladin level. A class/subclass is poorly designed when ribbon features are ALL they get at certain levels (see the PHB Ranger, or the Assassin Rogue).
@@tiradegrandmarshal Sort of a niche thing, but I've had my DM reveal that something is odd simply because he had to stop and ask what Divine Sense detected when I asked about certain things.
@WexMajor82 The first tactical (in combat) use of Divine Sense in our Descent into Avernus game (party level 8) was while battling an Orthon, Smiler, and a Cambion (Challenge Ratings of 10, 7, and 5).
The Orthon has 'Invisibility Field', allowing it to vanish each round and give itself Advantage on its next attack… which our DM 'blessed' by conveying player-like Sneak Attack to its already frightening capabilities. So when it Critically Hit our Artificer it was savage…
Using Divine Sense in combat might not normally a good thing (taking an entire Action) but it allowed him to direct the others where to attack, even if at Disadvantage. But more importantly it enabled him to catch up and Great Weapon Master + Smite it into the ground with two attacks, taking away the hefty amount of it's remaining life.
As a parting gift our DM let it use a Reaction (after it was already dead / in the process of dying, and well outside the statblock condition) to trigger 'Explosive Retribution' as an AoE. And doubled the dice rolled for it…
I mean, I'm afraid every fight we have… but I hope the DM is having fun!
@@rayquinn1974 Our DM stopped using invisible monsters when he noticed that any of us was capable of detecting invisibility in a way or the other, but that was a smart way to use divine sense.
A little late to the party, but in my experience playing paladins, losing concentration wasn’t too big of a concern because aura of protection applies to concentration checks because they’re constitution saving throws. So with solid constitution and charisma investments, you’re still passing most of your concentration checks without con save proficiency (though an unlucky roll can still get you every now and again)
Great installation of the series. And an awesome series overall, really liking this breakdown of all the subclasses.
Bit of a tidbit at 44:00 though. If an enemy mage casts finger of death at someone then Rebuke the Violent really isn't that fantastic of a reaction, since it only works on attacks and finger of death isn't one :)
Treantmonk, I need some clarification
From my understanding, the wording "melee weapon attack" means attack rolls made with a Melee Weapon.
And
The Thrown property allows a Ranged Attack with a Melee Weapon.
So from my understanding you would be able to use Divine Smite on a Ranged Attack made with a Melee Weapon with the Thrown Weapon Property.
Would this work?
Thank you for your time.
Just finished a campaign with a Vengeance turned Ancients paladin. Loved both subclasses, though Ancients mostly for the favor and the occasional spell damage getting halved. If you choose it for the story and not just the 7th level feature, I think you will enjoy it the most. +4 to all Saving throws, immunity to fear and resistance to spell damage within 10ft of her as a stack saved a lot of characters in our Curse of Strahd campaign.
Misty Step is my favorite spell and my paladin drove our DM mad quite often as the enemies couldn't ge away from her xD
Misty Step is my love. My DM knows to keep enemies away from my characters, so it feels good to be able to teleport. :D
@@shorewall I am a creature of habit - nearly all characters I play have Misty Step XD My favorite spell by far, has saved my life in the game so many times
And yeah in our fight against Strahd my DM thought he was safe as he was 55 feet away and I had said I'd used my last 2nd level spell slot. But when I said "I'm gonna use my last 3rd level spell..." She went "Oh shit you're gonna Misty Step aren't you" and he did not survive the round