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What Is Legacy Low Voltage Lighting and How Is It Better?
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- čas přidán 19. 03. 2023
- Low voltage lighting systems were a great beginning to an era of home automation we didn't realize when we built them. I think we need to bring back some of the things they had to teach us like running all our lighting from one control box that can be interfaced with remotely so installing or moving switches is easier.
For more info on the 1950's low voltage lighting systems and how my conversion began--as well as how this channel started--check out the very first video I did here:
• Low-Voltage Lighting S...
If you want to buy the Shelly relay modules I'm always on about:
amzn.to/3JhKe0O
Just bought a house with a low voltage system.
So glad I found you!
Your adventure is just beginning, I hope you have the fortune of a centralized relay box at least. Hopefully, my tangential and often times sporadic information will come in handy. Thanks for giving the channel a watch!
My father-in-law recently died leaving his heirs a 1959 built house with Remcon lightning relays and switches. As I’ve dug deeper into options for repairing or replacing several worn out switches, I’ve realized that these parts are rare or just not around. So I’m here looking for info. Thanks for your videos!
It can be difficult to find pieces parts the first video I did on the channel covers a lot of the history (if you care), but more importantly to you probably is the reference to Kyle's Switchplates, which has the most comprehensive listing of parts I've found. There are plenty of ways to retrofit newer tech, but it requires a fair amount of planning and research.
Wish you can come out to my house. No one seems to know how to work on my system. My power just went out to my home but only the fridge and front porch is working. I can’t turn the front porch light on or off.
That sounds very stressful. I may be able to offer you some guidance to troubleshooting if you would like to send pictures of your system and a bit of background, I can try to help (smartercircuits@gmail.com), and if you are on Discord, you can always join the Smarter Circuits server (link in the channel banner on the channel page) and post some questions to the general group and someone may have answers for you there as well--a lot of smart folks are gathering there. I will forewarn you, I will be a little slow to respond for a week or so as I am traveling.
I’m inheriting a couple houses that are full of these relays and switches, 🤦🏻♂️ super stressed out about it
I sort of covered this in another comment, but I think if you step back from it and think more about the circumstances as simply an environment to work in with its own unique features and restrictions rather than an insurmountable problem, you might at least see clearer. Certainly enough to put whatever your next steps are in order and stress a little less by simply putting one foot in front of the other until you reach your destination--whatever that may be.
The RIBL24B relays can replace those GE made RR latching relays
I'll have to grab a couple and show them.
The wire positioning is a little different, but it’s still a 3 wire pulsed input latching relay: www.functionaldevices.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/RIBL24B.pdf
this is a low voltage group therapy group - i too have a low voltage system. VERY hard to troubleshoot and fix but trying my best. Where do you buy your new relays? I have bought mine from Kyle. I have 3 multi dial panels that don't work but cant figure out what relay controls them.
Also just spent a week try to get patio light to work that haven't worked since 2003.
If the dials don't work entirely it's more likely that you have a broken common wire going to them than an issue coming from them--which is actually a bit better because it narrows down the number of wires that could be the culprit. As far as relays, I have Shelly Pro 4PM relay modules now, but I've recently been turned onto a near drop-in replacement. The model is RIBL24B, but I don't have a specific source for them.
You'll probably have to dig around online to find a place to order them. Otherwise, yes, Kyle is awesome. I learned so much from their site in the early days of working on my system, they deserve the patronage at least just for maintaining nearly the only source of detailed information on low-voltage lighting controls of this species on the internet.
As for the low-voltage group therapy, I think you're absolutely right. I've met so many low-voltage owners since my journey here started that I've seen the strangest problems and most unique situations. I believe these systems are amazing and approaching them with modern technology could make them practical again, but a lot of times, they are not for the faint of heart. Thanks for being a part of the group... we feel your pain.
I want to replace all these relays and switches and sphegetti wires with normal 12 gauge romex and switches, I’ve got a huge mess on my hands
It's usually a very large undertaking to convert to a modern standard wiring schema, but perhaps there is more than one way to skin a cat. Maybe you can upgrade, integrate smart functionality, and still have a normal control schema for residents as well as being able to monitor usage and perhaps even problems. I can understand trying to circumvent the time investment, though.
Where are you located? Roughly that is, not stalker like lol, I used to rent a house that was built in the 50’s, it was the rush development of our little town at the time, and this particular house was owned by the people that had the biggest car dealership, this system was similar to yours except push button momentary switches, with flip flop type relays. They barely worked when I moved in, but I got everything working again during my lease there. It didn’t have any dials like yours, but the master bedroom had a whole bunch of switches right beside the bed so pretty much any light that was likely to be on at night could be turned on or off from there. It’s the only one I’d ever seen, I’ve been in several of the other homes in the development and none of them had the system either. They were early to mid 50’s to around 1970 built homes. Oh, I’m in south central Pennsylvania.
What you had there was likely an even older style system before that was developed before the snap-action device was finally patented in the early 50's. They had toggle switch operated relays that were often found in attics between the rafters prior to this and up through the 60's. I am in southwest Ohio. Most of the systems I've seen or talked to owners about are in areas like ours, but I think that might just be the work of the algorithm because I know there are systems like these in Arizona as well. Thanks for giving my video a watch and sharing your story! I love hearing about other folks' experiences!
@@smartercircuits all the wiring was very neat, all in one place in the basement, I wish I had thought to take pics or videos, it was 2012/2013 era.
I'm thinking. Is it necessary to use 120V (Europe 240V) AC for general lighting?
Today's LED lamps have a maximum of maybe 15 watts.
Many solar systems are built with 24 volt batteries to have a reserve in the event of a power failure.
Then the current must be brought back to mains voltage. Is that necessary?
A single LED requires 3 volts DC and 3 LEDs are very happy with 12 volts.
If the current is to be high, 6 LEDs at 24 volts DC is the gold standard.
It's not necessary to use 120/240VAC for lighting, in fact most modern LED fixtures are stepping it down and rectifying it anyway; however, it's a pretty sizable project to convert to pure DC lighting--although, I know several people who've done just that. One thing to keep in mind is that a typical 6W 120V LED bulb is drawing 0.05A (even though it's just stepping it down and increasing the current on the board) while a 6W RV light at 12V is 0.5A. One of these things will kill you much faster than the other, and DC is the one that will kill you faster. Not saying it's not safe to do, but the fact remains that stand alone DC lighting systems in most houses would probably be a recipe for disaster. There are plenty of systems that are designed to do this (landscape lighting for instance), but they are specially designed so that people who only know enough to be dangerous aren't going to set their houses on fire.
Everything in this video is so foreign and out of my league. 5 years ago we bought a 100+ year old house that has touchplate lighting system throughout, along w a few regular looking switches. My husband has fixed everything for the 1st 15 years of our marriage but was diagnosed w dementia shortly after we moved here and is unable to understand or fix things…Half the switches in our house don’t work now, meaning most lights are stuck ON but lights in bathrooms, bedrooms and dining room are stuck OFF. It’s so bad bc we can’t find anyone that knows anything about the system. We have 4 kids and the elementary kids rarely get their homework done bc it gets dark so fast. Out of all the issues we’ve dealt with since my husband was diagnosed, the lights are the worst. Can you point me to ANY resources/videos that can help me fix our lights?! I want to take an electrician course just so o can understand the terminology and learn to use the multimeter we have but I have NO time, w a full time job and 4 kids.
It can be a lot to take in if it's not an interest already. I think I may be able to offer a few smaller suggestions here and then work our way up from there. If ALL of the switches are stuck in their states (except the "normal" light switches), there is a very distinct possibility that a wire to the transformer or the transformer itself is to blame.
This wouldn't require an electrician as much as someone who knows enough to install say a stereo system. Most electricians sadly run from these systems because they don't fully understand them or they don't think it is worth their time.
The transformer in question is probably near your relay box and you may have more than one depending on how many switches you have. If you have two and one is much smaller, that's likely your doorbell. I hope this eases your mind a little. My email is SmarterCircuits@gmail.com if you would like to correspond somewhere other than the comments section. I may be able to walk you through some simple troubleshooting steps to eliminate possibilities one at a time.
My new best friend is a wire toner I bought for identifying circuits, I’ll bet I have more of a mess to deal with than all of you in here , lord help me 🤦🏻♂️
I have a fox and hound tracer as well, I use it for similar reasons. They're invaluable to anyone who deals with any significant amount of wiring or cabling.
I try to be open minded. But as a licensed electrician with 50 years in the trade, this authors arguments are hmm as good as his works appears. There is NO benefit to LV at all. These were made for the sake of technology to "jazz" up into the new space age of the 1950's. I have removed many of these systems and wired them to all line side wiring methods. Just that fact ALL the lighting in the house needs wired back to the LV control panel should clue one in as to the folly of these systems. Now if you need to turn your light off from your lazy boy have at it. Why does one need to control all their lights from one location? Why not think hey I need to turnoff the lights I am getting a free work out here! My guess is any electrical inspector worth his license would condemn this system in a heart beat. (And as an FYI the old "relays" are actually solenoids)
There's no longer run than there would be from the circuit breaker panel, so you are wrong about the length and centralization as the shortest route has been taken rather than routing to a switch over and across walls and ceilings unnecessarily--the shortest path can be taken to where the mains box is anyway. Also, connect four switches to one light without using travelers and special switches--you can't.
GE, Remcon, Sierra, TouchPlate and dozens of other companies refer to these as relays because they act like a switch remotely and it's a more common term for such a device--particularly to non-technical people, so please take it up with them.
I'm aware of a certain level of novelty and even elitism with these systems in the 1950's, but you're wrong about the usefulness and the inspector comment since low-voltage systems are not regulated by building code, being less of a fire hazard. If any part of the control wiring fails, it doesn't set your house on fire like a faulty breaker, chewed wire, or even a wiring fault has the potential to do, so it's not a concern for building codes in most areas.
Why does one need to control all their lights from one location? Well, perhaps security, peace of mind, comfort, or even disability. There are plenty of benefits to these systems, but if you don't agree, that's fine. You don't have to be rude, disrespectful, condescending, or matter-of-fact about it.
I'm glad you have 50 years of experience as a licensed electrician, and I'm sure you have a large knowledge base that you've accumulated in that time, but that doesn't make you automatically right and using it to beat people over the head rather than constructively criticize or contribute to the general conversation just makes you seem abrasive and unlikable--regardless of your skill.
As far as how my "work appears", you don't have to look at it or live with it. The initial work that's been done was done in haste to begin with in order to get the lights in the house working because I couldn't afford to put an electrician's kids through college just to run some extra Romex and tear up all the walls and finished ceilings in the basement--stapling the wiring to rafters and studs is code here anyway.
Also, there's nothing wrong or dangerous about what I've done--it's just ugly. I didn't have several hundred dollars to spend on a box to mount everything at the time, but it's slowly moving in that direction. I never claimed to be an electrician or an electrical engineer--in fact, I often make it a point to remind people that I am not. What I've done is not dangerous or even against code since everything is UL listed--that I do know.
Lastly, I make videos because other people found what I did useful and I thought it would be neat to carry on and try to build the channel--which I've worked very hard to do. I certainly didn't shout from the mountain that these were the unbreakable, irrefutable truths of the universe.
When it's appropriate, I try to own when I am wrong, listen to differing views with an open mind, and I try to steer people in the best direction for their situation--often times recommending consultation with an electrician for safety reasons. I also welcome discussion and even correction because everyone will take something useful away from it all.
Thanks for watching and have a great weekend!