The Chained Wife - the Jewish Aguna Crisis | In Conversation with Keshet Starr
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2024
- A chained wife is a woman who is chained to a man in marriage, even after the relationship ends. This can happen in Jewish marriages when one partner refuses to give or accept the Get, the religious divorce. Malky is a Hasidic woman in Kiryas Joel who has been a chained wife for 4 years. In recent weeks the activist Flatbush Girl has spearheaded a campaign to pressure Malky’s husband to give a Get, by protesting in the strict and insular village of Kiryas Joel, by entering synagogues, and most controversially, by calling for a sex strike.
In this segment, I talk to Keshet Starr, the CEO of the organization ORA, or Organization for the Resolution of Agunot. We talk about how the problem of chained wives comes to happen, how these problems are unique in insular communities, how it impacts the children, the types of pressures that are applied, and more. This segment is also available on the podcast version of my segment.
Some links related to this segment:
ORA’s website: www.getora.org
ORA’s Instagram: / oraagunot
Keshet Starr’s Instagram: / keshetstarr
Flatbush Girl (Adina Miles)’s Instagram: / flatbushgirl
Podcast version of this segment: www.spreaker.com/episode/the-...
Thanks for watching!
I want to give a little shout-out of thanks to the people who support this channel as members, through Patreon or any other way. This channel is viewer-supported (not sponsors) and your support is so much appreciated. ❤❤
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Hi. I just subscribed as a Patreon supporter but that avenue of support seems to be closed. (I subscribed anyway.) is there a more current Patreon option? If so, will you please publish a link? Thank you! (Today’s guest is fantastic! So smart and on top of things!)
Frieda, Huge shout-out back to YOU. What a huge project this is. I hope that the support reflects your effort, energy etc! 🙃 Which of these ways of supporting is most beneficial to you? I’m open to doing all, of course. 🤪
Frieda, I give you much credit for helping to publicize this terrible and embarrassing problem. Those that use halacha for either unfair advantage or to bully/harass/torment their spouse are doing untold damage to themselves as well as to the larger community. Don't pay any attention to those who offer criticism without any substance attached. This is a very good interview.
Thank you
Frieda, you are a blessing and not just to the Jewish community in all of its internal diversity but to the Jewish community in its connection with non Jews. Blessings on you!
Thank you so much.
As someone who went through a really terrible religious divorce (Mormon) I can definitely relate to how manipulative and difficult these things can be. Our civil divorce was easy, but he was VERY resistant to allowing the religious divorce.
That must have been so difficult for you, hope you are in a good place now ❤
@@PhilomenaSK yes I’m remarried to a lovely person!
An episode on Agunahs and the issue of the get is always timely & important . Atty Starr is knowledgeable, professional, dedicated with an upbeat spirit. She is very articulate in clarification & process of this difficult and emotional issue. She, through Frieda’s probing but gentle questions, talks about civil courts vs rabbinic beis dins and how each can be a bridge to the other, the get process and who defines when a woman is an agunah. Keshet Starr emphasizes a measured advocacy approach with utmost concern for the children. Another Homerun episode. Shkoyakh.
Thanks for such a thoughtful review/comment. Keshet is such a lively spirit indeed. I think what really touched me was how clearly she prioritizes the concerns and preferences of the families she advocates for. This is foremost so important,
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn concur!
Great interview. As a frum chassidishe divorcee, I do want to say that there ARE Batei Din that are respectful to women going thru this process. I went to a very, very chassidishe Rov (not from my own Chassidus) who could not have been more respectful, made me feel more comfortable, more understanding of the process, more protective of me from beginning to end, than he was, and I will be forever grateful. I know that there are girls who are not supported by even their own families in this, and that is awful, but I promise there are solid people out there who can help you. Re Adina's publicity stunt (sorry I will not give it the respect of calling it anything else), Keshet was very diplomatic but I won't be. I'm sure Adina gained followers, so I suppose her price for promoted posts went up, but causing unnecessary separation between husbands and wives thru this mikvah whatever-it-is in order to pressure Malky's husband (who is, I'm sure, unimpressed) is so outside the Torah view of marriage and intimacy, I don't even know where to start. We do not bring politics or the outside pressures of the community into our bedrooms, full stop. YES much needs to be done to prevent these situations in the first place or at the least, resolve them quickly, but NO this is not the derech for that. Again, great interview.
What an uplifting comment. I’m so heartened to hear this. I have no doubt there are very good men out there who understand the need to make the woman comfortable in the process.
Also… yes I am cynical about social media personalities creating a hullabaloo so I fall in the line you do. Keshet gave a good answer though!
I think this is such a terrible situation that is going on in our community, kollakovd for making this painful subject more public thanks
While I am a practicing Catholic, I continue to love your channel and learn so much about the Jewish faith and culture.
After church today, I was walking with a friend on the Boardwalk and we were talking about Catholic annulments so I was surprised that this conversation popped up today on You Tube!
Thank you for addressing issues that are close to people’s hearts. ❤️
This is a very interesting and informative topic! I am not Jewish, but I’m very interested in learning what I can as I have relatives who are and just because I like to learn about other cultures and religions. Your viewers are becoming more compassionate and understanding people as you produce more videos. Thank you for the work you do! All the best, Margaret, Ontario, Canada🇨🇦😊
When we expand our knowledge about the beliefs, culture, obstacles, and experiences of others, most especially among women, we become more compassionate and stronger in our humanity. Thank you for the gift of these videos.
Amen!!
Koshet was such a delightful guest and helped me learn so much. I didn’t even know there was such a subject. I am never disappointed when I click on your channel, Frieda.
Frieda, I keep saying the same thing over and over but your channel is the best thing on CZcams right now! I love everything you put out! Do you have a Patreon so I can support you?
That is so very much appreciated. I actually can now take tax deductible donations through a program for artists who don't have their own non-profits. It's called Fractured Atlas. Here's the link: fundraising.fracturedatlas.org/frieda-vizel-brooklyn-youtube-channel
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynthanks so much! Keep doing what you’re doing, it’s wonderful!
I totally agree
🌳🌳💙🩵🌈😎🩵🩵🩵🩵🩵🌳🌳🌳🌳🌳🌳🌳🌳🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲🌲@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn
This topic is long in the making. I appreciate tremendously you doing this episode! 🙏
Lovely Frieda. Such a necessary and interesting topic. It’s so tough for us women that I think we should support each other in this by throwing a divorce party when the get is accomplished. I have a neighbor in this situation, and I mentioned it to my (Chabad) Rabbi’s wife, who replied, “Tell her we will help her to get her gett.” So, I said, “How?” She replied that “We have our ways. We’ll just go and beat him up.” It amused me at the time, but later on I realized she really wasn’t kidding. 👀
She probably wasn’t… lots of people still think this should be an unspoken option ….
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynyikes, I don’t like that unspoken option - even if it results in the victim doing something good. I also wonder if when one feels justified in inflicting physical violence on another (for a moral or religious reason) if that doesn’t risk/enable more domestic violence. I wish we could all just keep our hands to ourselves. Also thank you to OP for sharing her experience! I’m sure the threat of physical violence (whether real or not) can be useful for good results but I just wish that wasn’t the case. ❤
Gettbusters
If there's something strange
With your Jewish divorce.
Who you gonna call?
Gettbusters
If there's something weird
And it don't look good
Who you gonna call?
Gettbusters
Keshet Starr and her organization Ora are the Gett Busters!
😭😂😂😂🤣😅🥹
I never comment but this video was sooo interesting, one of the best in my opinion! Thanks Frida and Keshet
Thank you for commenting, I love comments!
Your program is rich with inspiration and insight. Your guest is so positive and upbeat. I never heard of this organization. Thank you for covering such a serious and complex issue. It leaves me with much to learn and think about. ❤️❤️
I thought she was absolutely wonderful.
This is too serious to watch this morning,I'll be back this evening.
Leave a comment with your thoughts after.
Wow, thank you both for giving this topic the delicacy and respect it deserves! I've worked on a few civil divorce cases, and none of them were pretty, but I can't imagine the added stress of community and religious pressure. Women like Malky have my admiration!
Collectively women have power and sometimes it must be used as a method for change. Apathy for the suffering of others is always a danger. That’s why we have communities. Isolation is the biggest threat to mental and physical health.
Fascinating insight….bringing humanity to issues of law is refreshing to hear. Love your videos frieda ❤️
Thank you!
Frieda, once again, such a great guest. The topic seems to be very currect. Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Again I always learn so much from your great videos. ❤
As always thanks Joe!!!!
What a brilliant guest. This was such an interesting and important conversation. So much information, which I’m sure will be really helpful to a lot of people and interesting to others.
Thank you so much Rachel! Have a good night 💤
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn thanks. Hope you’re having a good Sunday.
This is so good. There’s a whole lot of wisdom and good life advice in here too. I was so struck by what an incredible advocate Keshet is for the people she supports.
Another excellent interview and very informative. Great work Frieda.
Topic-wise, it was shifting between Jewish divorce, in general, and the more specific subject of Agunot, when one of the parties in a Jewish divorce, either husband or wife, becomes intransigent and refuses to cooperate in the ritual aspect of dissolving a marriage.
Keshet did an excellent job of trying to explain the very complex interaction between the civil and religious aspects here in America.
The primary difference is that in Jewish law, in cases of intransigency in the divorce ritual, which involves the making of a contract of divorce between the two parties, compulsion is permitted, even to the extent of beating and physical torture, in order to remove the intransigence.
In America, in secular, civil law including contracts, compulsion is not recognized and is actually a bar to the making of a valid contract (of divorce).
And in regard to this whole subject, it emphasizes the extreme importance of the second “Yehi Ratzon” prayer said each day at the beginning of morning prayers in the order of morning blessings.
Save me today and every day from…the first ten things enumerated are all parts of the process of what leads to the intransigence…The last four things enumerated, the prosecutor, harsh judgment, intransigent litigators whether Jewish or not, and from violent consequences, are all things we pray will never be a part of our personal lives.
Great comment Jim. Thanks.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn You’re welcome. If you’re more comfortable with it, my name is Yaacov.
You are fortunate that your parents only gave you one name to deal with! 😂
That’s very interesting about the compulsion part. That maybe explains the mention in the video of stories that a get refuser might get beat up by other men. Is there really a prayer to keep litigators away?? Thanks for sharing!
@@PoppyOak Like I mentioned at the end of the comment, we pray every day that the Creator of us all will save us from the lawyers. It’s in many ways, a very practical prayer.
The reflex of rushing “to sue”, is something we should do our best to avoid!
@@jimdeane3667I agree that legal action is best avoided when possible and I didn’t know that was a part of a prayer. Thank you for sharing!!
So illuminating snd helpful. Bless you, Frieda.
Happy to find a new video today! :) Thank you!
Happy Sunday! Im trying to publish on sundays but will probably take a break for a bit
Thanks for this!👏
Thank you so much for speaking about this!!
I was literally on the point of rewatching another of your videos (Pearl), when I noticed your new one. Always interesting and moving. Many, many thanks for sharing ❤🇨🇦
The pearl videos are always worth a rewatch! I’d so love to have her speak to the agunah issue.
I found this incredible and deeply interesting .
Thank you both.
Thank you! I so appreciate it!
Thank you ...much needed conversation. Your channel is shining light ✨️
Thank you 😊
Thanks!
Very informative! Great conversation!
This was yet another excellent video, and I am so appreciative of your channel. Your guest was incredibly personable, intelligent, and explained the topic in a way that a non-Jew like myself, though with a Jewish best friend since grade school, could understand.
Frieda, as a non-Catholic Christian, I love watching your videos, hearing and learning more about the Jewish faith. I really found it so interesting listening to your lovely guest today .. and I guess my initial response to hearing some of the different facts about the Get is, How can one understand a man refusing to give his wife a Get under the guise of religion, or of God? God does not condone spitefulness, yet in my understanding of a man's refusal to give his wife a Get is just that, out of spite. How does that match up - or join with - the Get, which is strictly done and given under Jewish law, tenants, or their principles? I find that to be the exact opposite of what God would want.
I think every divorce is unique but ultimately, in the most godly of communities there will be bad people.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I do understand that .. there are not-so-nice people in all religions and communities .. but I guess what I don't understand is why is it allowed? Maybe that's just a question that cannot be answered. But I enjoyed watching your video very much.
I’ve been enjoying your channel for some time now. Thank you for such interesting and well-thought videos.
Thank you, so very much appreciated. 💕
Thank you. This was another educational video. It gives me a greater understanding, compassion and empathy.
Amen
Thanks! Really appreciate your channel!!
Oh my thank you so much for the gift!
Hi Frieda! Reform jew here. This was a great video, i really appreciate all of your insight into the Hasidic and Orthodox community. I love learning all sides of Judiasm and i look forward to all the videos you post❤
Oh how wonderful, thank you 🙏
Great interview…I’m sure so helpful to the community ❤
I find your channel so educational and very much appreciate your sharing. I offer support to many woman and this is so helpful to me to understanding my orthodox clients. Growing up in reformed Judaism there was so much I didn’t know. Thank you.
As this issue is so near and dear to my heart, I really appreciate reading your comment. Keep up the good work.
Amazing interview! 👏👏 I hope this video will be helpful to Jewish women because it has so much information that I imagine can be hard to find. And of course it helps us all to better understand different cultures. These topics are so difficult (divorce, domestic violence/abuse) but I liked what your guest said about how “people are people” in all the good ways and bad in any community. And thank G-d, we have good people trying to help others. I was impressed with her thoughtfulness and how she explained their approach. Thank you so much to you and your guest for teaching us and doing such good and important work. (I was shocked it’s free! 🤯👏❤️) A really thought-provoking discussion!! ❤❤
I so appreciate it! I thought she was the most wholesome guest and I’m surprised people managed to get mad over what she had to say.
Love the line about "for you, it might be the third one you've done that day...". Same logic as the nurses who leave the room for your X-ray. It's not that it's not safe for you, it's that it's not safe for them doing dozens daily for years.
Thank you I learn so much from your videos Frieda 😊🙏🏳️⚧️🏳️🌈
Great video Frieda!
Thank you dear Mary
I watched your video about your own divorce process, and thought about this issue of agunot.. during my stay in Israel it was a lot in the media. I think they came up with a solution, so men cannot keep their wives as prisoners.. In my country, it is discussed that people supposedly divorce too easily..
It's tragic either way, divorce is sometimes a life-saver and should not be too difficult to have when needed. 🙁
I know of cases in Israel where the woman refuses to accept the Get. For men there is a solution if they are willing to take it. The decree of R. Gershom , somewhat over a 1000 yrs ago, decreed that a man can take only one wife where as in the Torah there is no limit . There are Rabbis who will marry a man whose wife will not accept a divorce. Usually a Sephardic Rabbi. I have know several men in this situation.
It's important to share this topic that effects mostly the women in jewish society where the men make the rules and have the power. Kudos to the women who are speaking out, shouting out and speaking for those who's voices have been ignored or silenced. Looking back at my divorce I agreed to pay all our credit card debt to make sure I received my "get" (Jewish divorce) because I didn't want my future children to possibly judged or excluded.
I relate to this
What a sweet person! I enjoyed the presentation but oh such a heavy topic. On the brighter side, my favorite restaurant in Sharon Springs has reopened for the season. Of course I was there opening day!
Ooooh enjoy!
Really like this woman. How does she stay so upbeat with the really nasty issues she deals with!
It is interesting to note how the great rabbis and rebbes in post war made so many efforts to free agunoth in cases were husbands had died without witnesses. In the cases of get refusal, youd think the job would be EASIER being the guy is alive and here to be confronted.
I must say this conversation was an eye opener. Of course, i have known of cases of get refusers but ive bever considered who are the people who can help in such cases and what a victim's options are.
I have the same question! She oozes good spirits and extroversion while dealing with the most misery inducing battles!
I read Frieda Vizel's essay about the Gett process she personally went through and it was such a tear-jerker because full of complex, conflicting feelings... She's a natural born writer ❤️
Very informative
I don't think it came up, and I'm a little surprised. New York has a "Get Law," meant to help address the issue of women who can't get a get. A quick Google search tells me it was first passed in 1980, and a second version in 1992, which, at least according to the article I read, is seen by some as problematic. I'd be interested to know how the Get Law fits into this, and how it plays in real life.
Yes meant to talk about it and kind of it fell through…I thought maybe what she said about arbitration being reviewable by the court might be related to the get law. Either way, my bad for not clarifying.
I think my comments are becoming almost "copy/paste" but, again, a great topic, great questions, great responses. I learned a lot. Keshet Starr was a great guest and seems to be elevating the communities she serves.
Thank you! It was so delightful to talk to such a strong, upbeat and wonderful orthodox woman. I feel it made the depressing topic of bad divorces so much more hopeful.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynAgreed. Her approach seems to one of compassion for all involved parties - very rare, in my experience, for an attorney.
Wow, this lady sure can talk. This is such an interesting subject, a true revelation for me. I had no idea. Also, very commendable the level of her engagement. BTW, you are looking particularly lovely in red.
Thanks for watching! I was incredibly impressed by how articulate my guest was.
Would it please be possible to add subtitles when Yiddish and/or Hebrew words are used and their English equivalent ( a bit like when Pearl was speaking ) so that we can research more on certain topics ? Great content as always 👍🏼
Ps your guests today is very articulate I'm amazed at how clever and well-spoken this young woman is. Blessings to you both 🙏🏼
Yes, good point! Lately I've tried to get the guest to use fewer Hebrew and Yiddish words because it feels like a better solution, because this way people can listen on the podcast too. But I guess even when we try our best we still use a ton of Hebrew and Yiddish!
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn No no please still use these words in Yiddish and Hebrew it's part of the beauty and knowledge of it all ..I learned so much from it. Again thank you for your great work Dear Freida 👍🏼
"We certainly don't want apathy" - what a great way to see people safely pushing for things you agree with in ways you disagree with.
Well said!
Thanks for the video. A sheynem dank. I thought I knew about gittin and agunos but turns out I only know the tip if the iceberg.
Nah you are a fountain of knowledge Stephen.
“Extortion”Wow! I have been the victim of this, but never knew it had a name.
I’m so sorry to hear that.
Thoroughly enjoyed this interview. Great guest. 👏
I thought so!
I live nears Lakewood NJ and work there. My office is on the same street as 3 boys schools. The Hasidic populace has been in the news here over the last five years for different reasons. One story is about them not marrying legally, only religiously. This allows for a lot of speculation about mothers being able to collect public funds if they are not legally married.
As far as I know everyone marries legally, that's what I know.
Hi Frieda, I have seen a lot of your videos and they are great. I was married at a Conservative community in Mexico (I am Mexican) to a Canadian man who came from an Orthodox background in Canada. It became a very violent situation and after 9 years I ended up asking him to leave my home, when my son was 5 years old. I went through a nightmare (8 years) to get the civil thing done, and then… the get. I managed to fall into the right hands and got a Hafka’at Kiddushin from a Beit din and then, an Orthodox get. I would like to get in touch with you so you can have another point of view, as I cannot write everything here….I hope that you read me! 🤗🤗
Hey Frieda, your videos are fascinating! I have a bunch of Lebuvitcher relatives who are rather liberal (compared to other frum folks lol) that you might have some interesting conversations with if you’re interested. They weren’t raised frum (neither was I, I’m an atheist) and have some interesting perspectives and are really lovely people. Your videos are so fun to watch! This woman is a total badass! Hope you’re well!
I love that you call Keshet badass!! I keep saying I am going to make content on lubavich and so far it’s still just a general hope, no actual firm plans.
Thank you for this very informative video. I’m familiar with the “get” but not familiar with organizations trying to got assist a person when the spouse refuses. Your guests thoughts on having a chorus different methods for advocacy struck me as right. The Civil Rights struggle had a verity of advocates from Malcolm X to MLK. It takes a village 😊
Exactly.
A divorce is the juxtapose to marriage they're both emotional but in very different ways.
If my mate is divorcing me, I am being rejected entirely by them and to a lesser degree my family while at the same my partner who is seeking the divorce is going to be scrutinized by the our friends and to a degree shunned for being a failure by the community.
This is very informative and I learned a lot.
Thank you. Divorce is difficult in the best of circumstances!
Great interview. Obviously women suffer more in these instances for all the reasons you discussed in the video, but it is interesting to note that just a few years ago in Israel there were more women refusing to receive a get than men refusing to give one. This is definitely contrary to most people’s initial assumptions and I would be curious about similar statistics in the US.
A very interesting story.
What about the wife that constantly makes additional requests while maintaining that she wants a divorce?
Good question. I think get refusal on either side is dressed up as paperwork and requests but it’s a facade. In such cases it’s clear to those who know up close that one party is disingenuous and prolonging the process intentionally to make the other persons life hard, not let them go, etc. in other occasions it’s a real genuine negotiation process. Only those who truly know each situation can probably tell if it’s a case of get refusal or just divorce slog.
I am ashamed to so completely ignore the point, I paused this video like 50 seconds in, but if you think something nice, say it, and I just have to say, your hair looks amazing. Okay, back to actually watch and give this topic the attention and respect it deserves...
Ha ha that’s so kind especially because I was not having a good blouse day here!
Yiddish writer Chaim Grade wrote Di Agune in 1961 where he depicts the plight of a young woman who cannot remarry.
We always heard of agunas in the context of a young woman whose husband is drafted to the Russian army, never heard from, and she never knows if her husband is still alive and hence, technically in marriage with her. This type of woman lived an agonizing and lonely life.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynI was going to say similar. We see the importance to the Rabbonim of freeing women when it was 'one sided' as in disappearance due to war, travel, Holocaust. R Moshe went meshuga (so to speak) from it. In these 2 sided Agunah cases the prob is there just isn't always what to do about it bec the Torah can't protect people from other evil people. The Torah is there to provide a G-d given manual to life that has proven by far to give the best benefit in THIS world bef even speaking of the next. For evil people to get involved with their free will, sometimes, when there is absolutely no choice and all stops are already pulled, there is just the fact that different people will go thru different nisyonos in life that cant always be avoided
The audience should know that the problem exists in the nonorthodox community for Jews who want to remarry and have additional children in Judaism. In my case, (I’m a male) I was already divorced civilly and my ex wanted a payment to execute the get (divorce). However, the Rabbi granted the divorce as a favor to my exwife because she had a boyfriend and so that she would not be an eiset eesh (an adulteress.) He told me that she could pick it up at anytime
Yes to my surprise I have heard of this
How can I give you some support? I found this video very, very sad I do not know whether I should be able to comment on a community’s rules about the get but this seems very complicated as well as sad. My simple uncomplicated reading of the Torah is that HaShem hates divorce but allows it different circumstances I have been through it like you and so we know how painful it can be. But we all need to “move on “ finding a new path. Children tend to be more resilient than the adults often. I didn’t know that some children if a get was not thought of as being no longer Jewish. That is very disturbing to me as I believe if the mother is Jewish so are the children. Nobody can change that it’s forever! ! HaShem I am sure wants to heal people. I think some “religious “ things get in the way. That’s why we often need advisers or counsellors. My prayers go out to all in the community suffering in ways you both discussed. I hope you have a good week despite the sad subject you’ve discussed. Bill. Uk
Thank you so much for your very kind words my dear Bill.
A mom that drags the man through the mud, and there are many ways they can do that (court system, assets, money, withholding kids from dad), is a fake Aguna in my humble opinion.
Do you think that’s what happened here? I am more than willing to believe not all women are angels, but do you have reason to believe this is the case in this current story?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynyes
When I've heard of mikva strikes, I've always thought of the Ancient Greek play, Lysistrata, when women went on sex strike against war.
Not effective.
I’m Roman Catholic and we have a similar system. It’s basically a religious annulment given by a church council. It’s a big, complicated, deal! Tons of paperwork and a lengthy process. Witnesses must fill out voluminous paperwork. They even have ecclesiastical attorneys. One cannot re-marry in the Catholic church without this.
Hey Terry 🌹🌹🥀🌹
Can I ask you a cool question please??
I’m curious if the protest directed toward a get-refuser can have legal implications in court? It’s harassment and threating.
Interesting question!
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn i wonder if it’s ever brought up during any disputes in court over custody of children?
So interesting! Forgive my ignorance but I'm curious, you stated that if a woman decides she doesn't care about having the get and has children in her 2nd marriage then those children will be considered illegitmate and have trouble as they grow up with joining communities/marriage prospects. Does the same thing happen to the children of a man who doesn't have the get and gets remarried & have children?
No, the case of the children being illegitimate applies only to the women.
One additional thought on this, since to some the idea of compelling an intransigent spouse even though threat of physical violence to comply and agree to give the “Get”, the Jewish divorce document.
Like with all things related to Jewish marriage generally, the dissolution of a Jewish marriage is also derived from elements of the giving of the Torah at Sinai.
For example, Frieda, the destruction of the actual document is derived from the shattering of the first Tablets of the Ten Commandments after the sin of the Golden Calf.
But at Sinai, the tablets were not discarded, they were kept and preserved in the Holy Ark. However, the golden calf itself along with all objects involved in that event were pulverized, ground to dust and disposed of, leaving no trace. That at Har Sinai, the divorce was not complete, like is stated explicitly by the Prophet Isaiah, chapter 50:1.
The compulsion aspect is derived from the second set of Tablets and the renewal of the covenant that coincides with Yom Kippur.
The acceptance by the Jewish people then was very different from the first time because it also involved the acceptance of the Oral Torah. Like the Torah records, some of the Jewish people balked at the idea and it was then that Mount Sinai was held over their heads, if for good as a Chuppah, a marriage canopy, and if for the opposite, to bury them literally right there!
Frieda, G-d bless you, when you so honestly recount the awesome and frightening circumstances that you sensed during your divorce ritual, you were connecting to that process literally at the giving of the Torah at Har Sinai. That all our souls were there together literally.❤
Never heard any of this before but very nice.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn It’s not something most people realize. Life is too busy these days for people to quiet their mind, pause and reflect on what the Torah is actually teaching about real life, actual day to day living.
My prayer for you is that it helps to give you new eyes to see at least some of the things in your life, Frieda. That it opens a new and stronger path for you in your service to G-d.
That all Chassidim are family! 🙂
As someone who came to Judaism later in life (not Hasidic, obviously), I’ve noticed there’s so much similarity between this and the annulment/divorce crisis in Catholicism. It got so bad with my mother that once she met my father, because her previous marriage had never been annulled, she just didn’t practice her faith. When she passed last year, I had learned that a priest came by to offer her the mercy of a deathbed communion. Apparently, accordingly to the nurses, she just looked him in the eyes and said, “Just leave me alone.”
I still think Judaism has a more healthier approach to divorce, though praxis is a lot different than what is actually written in the books.
I always enjoy learning about other faiths. Is the problem in Catholicism that you can’t get a divorce because you need to annul the marriage instead, because of the problem with divorce?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn The problem is a bit weird and I could probably even have a podcast episode on this. The issue is that Catholics do not recognize civil divorce. If you do get a civil divorce, you have to get an annulment which tries to find some deficiency in the previous marriage to render it sacramentally invalid. So if a person divorces civilly and then let’s say they marry in another church or they get a courthouse marriage (like my parents), then according to Catholic law, that person is living in adultery and cannot receive the sacraments.
When I was Roman Catholic, I went through an annulment process to annul my first marriage because I wanted to start dating after my divorce was finalized and I was open to the idea of marrying again. I found it very much like your experience getting your get. Very sterile. Men pouring over books involving ancient law codes that don’t really have much relevance in the modern era. And very emotional.
In the end, I starting dating Jewish women and it just became a moot point. lol.
It’s so interesting how much similarity there is between ancient traditions in different religions.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn Yeah. I also think there is a reason why the Supreme Court has a lot of Catholics and Jews. We understand the concept of law and how to maneuver about it.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynespecially when one religion is another take on the other
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In Israel, where the boundaries of state and religion are more blurry , a man who doesnt give a "get" can be criminally prosecuted and jailed, whereas a women is never priosecuted or jailed for now receiving a get. So as of today there are more men In israel who are deinied a "get" than women
Really. What of a heter maya? Is it hard to get?
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyna heater Maya is always hard to get and many people have personal policies not to sign them ever for fear of not knowing which ones should be valid and which ones not. Possible to get YES, but difficult, also YES.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn a man can't decide he's had enough and wants to get a "Heter Mayah" the beis din must be able to condone this. There is the famous case of the Actor Shuli (shaul) rand who was denied a get for many years and claimed to be a battered husband, and the Beis Din recommended, whilst leaving his wife a get in the Beis Din, (which his wife up until today has chosen never to receive) to simultaneously get a heter dmaya rabonim, and was free to marry again
He brought light the difficulties of Men in the divorce court in Israel. Listen, I'm a woman, bur you can't turn a blind eye to the other side.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklynwith a heter me'ah rabonim you remain halachically married to the first woman. Kinda creepy. As far as I know, hard to get but then also, not something everyone would want. And I wonder how the Israeli rabbinate deal with it, because the couple is not divorced and a second marriage is halachik polygamy
100% very interesting to learn.
🌳🌳💙🩵🌈🔆FRIEDA: THANK YOU FOR THIS BRILLIANT INTERVIEW ~ “The Chained Wife - the Jewish Aguna Crisis | In Conversation with Keshet Starr”😇🩵G-D BLESS YOU ~ S. AND EVERYONE WHOM YOU 💙
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Here is a well deserved comment for the algorithm.
Appreciated!
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn I always appreciate your videos. Your gentle approach is refreshing.
What quite a journey this woman been through, defying gravity. Goodluck!
I hadn't heard of this aspect of Jewish law or that anyone could be prevented from divorcing if they want to. Why do masses of women put up with this ?
We talk about that towards the end of the video. I think this issue is usually not a problem and only affects a small number of women.
Primarily due to Jewish law.It's complicated and serious.It's not a matter of submission to the spouse, it goes to the depth of one's soul and life long belief.Has it morphed into being one sided favoring the husband? Yes,as it has always been.Is it fair and just? No.
@@boathousejoed1126it's not a matter of being fair and just in terms of Woodstock and burning your bra. It's a matte of being Torah based. The Torah is not seeking to chain people and men are not allowed a get out of free card for doing this. G-d sees all and dif people are meant to go thru different difficulties in life. Is it fair for a mother of 5 to die. Is it fair for some to have mental illness. So this is a horrible difficulty some may have to go thru. The Torah can't protect people from the bad intentions of evil people. That is the concept of free will. What the Torah does say is that the woman enters her husbands home and she is married to him. You're forgetting years ago there was a concept of having more than one wife, so of course she will be more attached than he.
How is the agunah problem distributed? Is it more of a problem in the modern Orthodox world?
As pointed out in the video, it is rumored that the Bais Din in Kiryas Yoel has ruffians who can enforce the court's decisions through intimidation and even physical violence. As such, it would seem they are more effective.
I always assumed that in Kira’s Joel women all had men who could protect her (unlike say a bales Tshuva). I maybe shouldn’t repeat rumors but rumor has it that Flatbush Girl is called to action on #freemalky by the men in Malkys family. Which sort of proves the point. But I don’t know…. Women in insular communities might also be more easily cowed and intimidated.
Are the men able to marry even though they have not given the women the get? It seems they must be able to because they are continuing to refuse to give them. If they can, wouldn't it be considered cheating/bigamy?
"Men can have a similar problem. A longstanding ordinance called cherem Rabbenu Gershom, the ban of Rabbenu Gershom, prohibits men from marrying two women; a man whose wife refuses to accept a get also cannot remarry without some remedy. Men do have the option of securing a heter meah rabbanim, where a hundred rabbis (from three countries) agree to breaking the rules for his exceptional circumstance."
Source: torahmusings
Bigamy is not against jewish law.
But I think a lot of those men are either mentally unstable and can't let go of their wife, or they have such low self esteem their fear is she will get married in a jiffy and nobody will want THEM anyway. And their thinking is like the famous woman in salomon's Court-i will do without as long as the other is deprived
Such good questions. Many of these men aren’t remarried but some are and I’m not sure how that is legally/halachikally permissible. Maybe someone in the comments knows.
Aside from the ramifications related to children, I don't understand why it sounds as if the get is more necessary for the woman than for the man. Isn't a man who is refusing to grant a get also holding himself hostage? Or can a man remarry without a get?
"Men can have a similar problem. A longstanding ordinance called cherem Rabbenu Gershom, the ban of Rabbenu Gershom, prohibits men from marrying two women; a man whose wife refuses to accept a get also cannot remarry without some remedy.
Men do have the option of securing a heter meah rabbanim, where a hundred rabbis (from three countries) agree to breaking the rules for his exceptional circumstance."
Source: torahmusings
It is religiously forbidden for either spouse to remarry without a get. For the man, he is in violation of Orthodox Torah law, but it is worse for the woman, since doing so is considered adultery according to Jewish law, and children conceived in it mamzerim.
Source: wikipedia
Realize that in Biblical times, a Jewish man could have more than one wife. But a woman who had relations with a man who was not her husband committed adultery which was liable for the death penalty. The children of adultery are mamzerim (bastards) and are generally able to only marry other mamzerim.
Yes her children in remarriage will be considered mamzeriem (illegitimate) but not his. That’s the main reason she can’t just move on.
I think I remember learning that a husband can give a Get against the will of his wife by simply throwing it at her.
Wrong! She has to accept it
Hey Yonatan🌹🌹🥀🌹
Can I ask you a cool question please??
This woman and her organisation seem to have a good handle on all the problems involved and are doing good work helping people through it without an "agenda" bent.
Though the problem exists in Israel as well , it is more under control- 1. The beti Din - the religious courts are aware of the manipulations and pressuring around the get ,so try to safeguard the would be manipulated. Also the Religious court has "teeth " - a husband who refuses to give the get unreasonably - can under what is called "takanot Rabbanu Tam" first have his driving licence ,passport revoked , have his bank account frozen and if such things don't work be put in prison and if that doesn't work be put in solitary confinement in prison.
Again in Israel the main objections of husbands is usually financial - because the bulk of child support falls on them.
Outside Israel there is a major problem in most places a civil divorce is not dependent on a religious divorce ,so many Jews (who are not overly religious ) get married with a religious ceremony but don't get a religious divorce (get) .so If the wife (thinking she is an exwife) remarried and has children from this "second " marriage- these children are mamsarim (illegitimate) and the Rabbis and Beti din have to go through emance halachic calisthenics to find loopholes to allow these children to marry Jews.
So there are a few places outside of Israel where the ci il law conditions a civil divorce on a religious one which should be encouraged.
Great comment, thanks for sharing.
From Ketubah to Get , from Get to Ketubah . Ideally Harmony Ketubah is forever .
The World isn't ideal .
I heard a rabbi had a pre nuptual agreement to avoid potential future problems.
This only evolves into an issue if spouse wishes to remain in the frum community
It also affects the children.
Surely many people want this.
Most people want to stay in their communities
The rabbis should be advocating for this. Why should any Jew suffer needlessly?
Asking as someone who is a never-jew, is there something like a prenuptial agreement in Jewish law?
No but there is a movement trying to get people to sign a legal one. Well actually there’s a ketuba, the marriage contract, which promises stuff like sheep and goats to the bride in the case of divorce or widowhood. It is an ancient Jewish marriage contract and isn’t enough to protect a couple from bad blood and inequity in divorce. So there’s a push for orthodox couples to sign prenups.
@@FriedaVizelBrooklyn What a difficult position to be in! While I myself have never been in a religion that has its own legal code, I can only imagine how difficult things are when having to deal with two legal systems, without so much as both systems having a process for submitting a legally binding prenup. I applaud those fighting for more civil prenups, but I do wonder if it goes far enough in a situation where religion is such an integral part of daily life?
Actually the ketubah - or marriage contract does a number of things.
1. It defines the obligations of the husband to the wife and the wife to the husband (mostly financial)
2. Sets out what the financial settlement will be for the wife in case of divorce (she loses this settlement if she is at fault ) or widowhood
3. Lists what she was given by her family as a dowery ( what assets she brought into the marriage again important in divorce and though her husband inherits her if she dies first this and her marriage settlement goes to her children if he has children by another wife)
She can claim these sums when she is divorced- and it is a binding document in Israel.
Jewish law was actually pretty advanced in protecting women's rights for thousands of years
There are those that also do an actual pre nup more come in second marriages.
I’m curious to know how many agunot there really are.
I find this interesting that women believe the civil divorce isn’t enough. In America this isn’t legal it a religious belief. I am Jewish but raised Christian. I would GET the hell out of there!!!! LOlz 😂
My answer: The woman should be able to move on. This is ridiculous
Thank you for this. The concept has reached beyond Orthodox marriage into Christianity, especially Roman Catholicism which does not even recognize divorce. Please remember that Roman Catholic is significantly different from Protestant Christianity and it does clearly recognize and teach the Jewishness of Jesus and does not take the Bible, in any of its parts literally. It has many problems obviously, and the treatment of women is one of the major ones inside and outside of marriage. After a civil divorce either member of the marriage can ask for an annulment which means that the blessed marriage is ruled to never have happened….and law being law the children are still considered legitimate. As everyone in the annulment process and final ruling on the sacramental marriage is “clergy” meaning unmarried men the power imbalance is continued.
Very much appreciate learning all this.
Dear Frieda, I will definitely watch this episode and expect the best as always from you - but I truly wish you would choose another image for the thumbnail. It seems like a stock image for “chained woman,” but we know that term is not meant literally and this could give others a horrible first impression that Jewish women are literally chained G-d forbid! Just something to consider. Thank you for your continued excellent work and sharing it.
It gets attention and hopefully more viewers. But don't worry so much about anti-semites. Realize that the anti-semites hate us and it has very little to do with what we do.
I appreciate the feedback and will think about it. I thought it was a little provocative but nothing too much.
I believe that states should pass laws that don't allow for secular divorce unless a religious divorce has been given.
They’ve worked on this and I believe there’s some law like it in ny but I’m vague on the details.