Hot Shot Trucking | Episode 5 | My NON CDL Hot Shot Set Up (Watch before you buy a trailer)

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  • čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
  • Learn How To Hotshot @ www.babylionhotshot.com
    Link for Ram Mount: amzn.to/3VP8Hhs
    PS. its a little expensive but worth every penny. You get what you pay for and you'll be pleased when this laptop tablet stand hold up to the bumps in the road and the shaking.
    This is the set up I will use to hot shot. 2020 Ford F250 with the big tex 14-gn 28+5 dove tail with mega ramps.

Komentáře • 124

  • @Babylionhotshot
    @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +2

    If I missed anything or if you have questions just ask and I’ll respond

    • @emilio7478
      @emilio7478 Před rokem

      Hello family what you think. Is better 26ft box truck or hot chit just need your opinion. I am studying both I will make a decision soon what u think

    • @AdrianLopez-zi1wr
      @AdrianLopez-zi1wr Před rokem

      Have you weighed your truck and trailer empty at a cat scale? I was thinking of getting the same setup but I am concerned about the amount of weight the trailer places in the bed of the truck (putting the truck over it's GVWR).

    • @ammsrich9293
      @ammsrich9293 Před rokem

      I’m a owner of a moving company and I’m trying to get into hotshot with out Cdl may you please contact me !
      I’m in ohio and running a moving company now and need to know what trucks I can get to be able to pull the weight

    • @midnightvenom1825
      @midnightvenom1825 Před rokem

      @@ammsrich9293ram 2500 should be great

  • @GBTKTV
    @GBTKTV Před rokem +1

    I subscribed because you give great information. Thank you! I start with Variant Trucking this week, but hot shot trucking is what I plan to do as well. Great video and be safe out there.😁👍

  • @TikiSavage
    @TikiSavage Před rokem

    Just came across your 1st video lastnight, love how open you are and I appreciate the hard work that you put into your videos. Awesome content keep up the hard work... bless up drivah

  • @fritzduval
    @fritzduval Před 2 lety +22

    Do not hook your brake away cable on the the chain hook. That's a violation. Also the front window tint is a violation aswell and a heavy fine. Hook the brake away cable on the top bed side. There is a cover on it. Just un cap it and hook it inside . Best of luck fella

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +15

      I appreciate the heads up so much. I’d hate to get a fine right out of the gate. Thanks for looking out

    • @fritzduval
      @fritzduval Před 2 lety +4

      @@Babylionhotshot anything questions hit me up..✌️

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +4

      @@fritzduval I will, just subed to your channel so i can keep that in mind, thanks again

    • @TheIncredibleHoosier
      @TheIncredibleHoosier Před rokem

      @@fritzduval front tint is ok. I’ve seen lots of drivers with it.

    • @fritzduval
      @fritzduval Před rokem +5

      @@TheIncredibleHoosier IT is 💯 percent illegal to have front window tint on any Commercial vehicle period. Those who have tint has not run into a strict DOT officer yet. Law states 70% light must pass thru the light meter test. My friend had 69 percent light pass thru and he got a ticket on his Hot Shot Truck. DOT are more forgiven for Semi's than Hot Shots. In Hot climates DOT may be less strict. Look it up fella...

  • @noosh8316
    @noosh8316 Před rokem +9

    Congrats on getting started man, look forward to following along. With your setup, just be aware of your Rear GAWR of 6,340 lbs. That will be the first rating that you will most likely overload/exceed with your setup. That will really be your limiting factor when it comes to how much (payload) weight you can carry with your setup. The trailer will be fine, but you'll have to manage your tongue/hitch ball weight very closely to get it all distributed evenly and not over load your rear axle or trailer axles.

  • @jdmjd1989
    @jdmjd1989 Před 2 lety +1

    Just watched all your vids. Glad I came across you , straight up dude! Tells it like it is no bs. And your new starting out. I’m alittle further behind you right now but u have already showed me some good pointers with those mistakes u made . Appreciate you speaking on it a lot these guys just bs what really happened. And yes it’s getting expensive and I haven’t even bought a trailer yet, currently getting my truck fixed up and In working order don’t have the fresh 2020 like yourself. Awesome set up . Yea It’s getting hard right now with me in between jobs and not bringing any money in now with trying to start this up but now the costs of everything hurts, the fuel prices right now don’t make it any better something got to change . But I like u staying non cdl for now. I know everyone says get the cdl and I plan on it but also with the weight I’m looking to haul there is no need of it as of right now and that’s just another expense. Got so many more things I can ask you and talk about but don’t want to blow up your comment section with a story book like I already have. Are you on Facebook or Instagram . Hope all going good with u so far keep it up u about ready to start this damn thing .

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +5

      I’m going to try and tell it like it is. Thanks for the comment. That really reminds me why I’m doing this. I feel like it’s important to give out the real numbers. Ya add me on Facebook (Stuart Arnold) Marion IL we can stay in touch

  • @manwithnoname734
    @manwithnoname734 Před rokem

    Nice non cdl set-up! I would highly recommend getting some Timbren bump stops for the trailer as those leafs are pretty bouncy and will bottom out the u-bolts into the frame.

  • @andrewlopez3420
    @andrewlopez3420 Před 2 lety +4

    Keep posting videos. I’m right there with you just starting out.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +3

      It’s definitely more expensive to get stated then I thought but we are in too deep to quit now lol. Kelp it up too. It will hopefully get easier

  • @avenmiller7597
    @avenmiller7597 Před rokem +1

    The only down side to the dove tail is they rub real bad in low dip areas and or get stuck. I prefer a flat deck w/ pull out ramps

  • @Calvo1122
    @Calvo1122 Před rokem

    Great videos btw

  • @dormanbaltazar9560
    @dormanbaltazar9560 Před rokem

    Great info bro!

  • @christophertego1006
    @christophertego1006 Před 8 měsíci

    Lots of updates thanks

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 8 měsíci

      I’ll get better at giving info. I’m trying my best. I appreciate you Christopher. More updates coming soon

  • @notme5909
    @notme5909 Před 2 lety +1

    Nice setup....

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +2

      Thanks I appreciate it. Hope the monthly payments take care of the maintenance payment lol

  • @ptso7580
    @ptso7580 Před 2 lety +1

    Speed binders are awesome and alternate the wrinches don't want them on one side.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety

      damn! good idea to alternate the straps. I just figured if I have to tighten them on the side of the interstate I don't want to be on the traffic side.

  • @Jddlincoln
    @Jddlincoln Před rokem +5

    That truck probably only has about 2200lbs payload capacity because of the diesel motor. That’s not a lot of wiggle room with the pin weight of a gooseneck rated at just under 16k. 15% pin weight puts you right at 2k lbs. that’s before fuel and anything else you have in the truck. You are going to have a tough time keeping that rear axel from being overloaded.

    • @squirtmph
      @squirtmph Před rokem +1

      What should I look for complete balance weight & length any particular model? Thanks 👍

  • @smokeybailey3080
    @smokeybailey3080 Před 2 lety +2

    InNorth Carolina if you tow a trailer rated to haul more than ten thousand a cdl is required according to the patrol officer talking to me

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +1

      ya that's what I heard. Im not planning on going to California because of that but I'm assuming more states will eventually change their laws and I'm about to get my cdl training under way so I'm ahead of the curve.

  • @williamwatson2670
    @williamwatson2670 Před rokem +3

    So im starting off with the hotshot trucking as well. I was under the impression that your actual weight of the truck and actual weight of the trailer and deduct that from the 26000 lbs and that is what you can haul. is that correct. and is your truck deleted?

  • @MrCarpediempilot
    @MrCarpediempilot Před rokem

    Looks like a nice set up. How come you went with a 250 vs a 350? Seems like a 350 would give you more available payload on your truck. Might be an ignorant question on my part but I was just wondering.

  • @kevingilpin6707
    @kevingilpin6707 Před rokem

    What do you think of a quad cab dually setup with a non cdl trailer!!! I plan on eventually doing Cdl hauling and buying a bigger trailer for it but want to go ahead and get the dually since I am buying new! Thanks

  • @lilquick_yt6378
    @lilquick_yt6378 Před rokem

    Hey baby lion, I did more research and I understand u went with the equipment u can afford, but when I went to go price check a 14gn, I realized that the 16gn where I am in Florida is only 2000 more AND has heavy duty axles or something the guy told me, he said with the. 16GN ur gnna be able to haul heavier load without it overloading ur axles and ur tire wear is going to be less than the 14gn, also ur axle wear isn’t going to happen as fast as the 14gn as well

  • @juanblackwell8801
    @juanblackwell8801 Před 11 měsíci

    Thank you. It's so stupid when people block the tag..😂😂😂

  • @natedoglara
    @natedoglara Před 11 měsíci +1

    So with non CDL do you have to follow the 11/14 hour driving laws. Or can you run longer?

  • @andrejones7491
    @andrejones7491 Před rokem

    Are you located in the Kentucky area I live in Kentucky would like to get some information about this area looking to get into the hotshot myself thanks for the video

  • @rbljackson
    @rbljackson Před rokem

    Im new and trying to understand this. Why are you staying under 26K? Are you saying you dont need a CDL if under 26K? maybe I missed something there. Enjoying the content so far....i just found your channel because I was curious what the term "Hot shot" trucking was.

  • @elpapa1925
    @elpapa1925 Před rokem

    I have my personal pickup with a camper shell (California Registration, 07 ram cummins diesel) with a gwr of 10100# (curb weight 6415# dry) and a new bumper pull car hauler trailer that had the manufacturer rate at 9990# but was formerly rated at 17500# ( curb weight 5200# ,dual axle 8k with mega ramps and drive over fenders) because I'm in California but move my personal trucks and ranch equipment back and forth from out of state for non commerce ... how heavy of a truck and loads can I legally cross the scales with? I don't have any stickers
    m. I do have a second home in New Mexico (not my primary). I licensed non cdl in California as well.

  • @user-kn2fd6uu3t
    @user-kn2fd6uu3t Před 6 měsíci +1

    Hey bro so if your setup is 25900 pounds how much wait can you carry as a non CDL?

  • @scotty3725
    @scotty3725 Před 11 měsíci

    How much cash do you need to start something like this? With a similar setup I mean

  • @kiddgroovy
    @kiddgroovy Před rokem

    I just got a quote for the same type of trailer... 25k... Where did you buy yours?

  • @squirtmph
    @squirtmph Před rokem

    Can you ole to give us what model or photo from yout new trailer.?
    F250 diesel
    What else should i look for from a pick-up.?
    What about RAM? ant input

  • @187deki
    @187deki Před 9 měsíci

    Does the trailer have some breakes?

  • @ashonrandall4102
    @ashonrandall4102 Před 20 dny

    I want to get into this so bad. But the startup costs are just too much.

  • @misterpatron1
    @misterpatron1 Před rokem

    What type of plate do you need and how much is it ???

  • @C7Tmac
    @C7Tmac Před rokem +1

    hey man are those ratchet set up safe / Strong enough since they are only bolted on ??

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem

      Honestly ya they have been holding up pretty good. I shake them every now and then and they are still tight.

  • @UnauthorizedShorts
    @UnauthorizedShorts Před rokem

    big fan of your videos, but my one question is why no CDL?

  • @wendellhooks1213
    @wendellhooks1213 Před rokem

    Why do you have to take your tint off ?

  • @David-td5po
    @David-td5po Před 2 lety +3

    You will regret those bolt on winches. I did, they will keep becoming loose and you will have to keep tightening them! I eventually took them all off and installed s winch rail 10x better.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +2

      Ya before I bought them I thought they might do that. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Didn’t know what another alternative was but I’ll look into a winch rail. Thanks David

    • @sashaalvarez5300
      @sashaalvarez5300 Před 2 lety

      Use 2 in straps lighter and easier to deal with, sometimes the old folks got the goods not u toob ppl. (Im not old or wise i just been learning from the right ppl)

    • @David-td5po
      @David-td5po Před 2 lety

      @@Babylionhotshot Yes you will get frustrated with having to keep tightening them, especially once you get up and rolling good. They will become a pain in the ass, even had a couple fall off. I said to myself once I get home they are coming off!! I should have gotten a winch rail from the start but I was being cheap and penny pinching lol.

  • @mikejamison4520
    @mikejamison4520 Před rokem +1

    I think your good on the tint if you passed DOT inspection.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem +1

      All ready ripped it off lol I actually like it; you know being able to see out my windows and stuff. But it was an inspection off a local auto place that is probably licensed to do inspection but the dot officers would have given me a ticket.

    • @mikejamison4520
      @mikejamison4520 Před rokem

      @@Babylionhotshot I've seen alot of full size semis with tint on there windows. I know DOT allows a little tint. But I always had a window shade in my freightliner

    • @bryanbatton01
      @bryanbatton01 Před rokem

      Are you still in operation? I'm interested in picking your brain.

  • @mikelee8087
    @mikelee8087 Před 8 měsíci

    I thought to be non cdl you had to be under 26k fully loaded. Is that wrong ?

  • @matthewsharfenaker7465
    @matthewsharfenaker7465 Před 10 měsíci

    How much weight can you haul non cdl?

  • @fredwilliams7893
    @fredwilliams7893 Před 18 hodinami

    What’s do you make on loads on average

  • @brettskinner5824
    @brettskinner5824 Před 11 měsíci

    can you still hotshot without a cdl

  • @mitchellhleonardi8139

    Do I need a CDL license for a 5500 dodge ram

  • @lyfeaboveallthings
    @lyfeaboveallthings Před 2 lety +2

    u need to get the rachet binder bro,

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety

      Yeah I think you’re right. Do you think I should just roll with all ratchet binders?

    • @Frontpagefab
      @Frontpagefab Před 2 lety +1

      @@Babylionhotshot I have used both. The ratchet binders are nice and a good way to go, but I find the ones you have to be quicker. I just carry a cheater pipe for additional leverage.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety

      @@Frontpagefab ya I feel like the ratchet binders are less likely to pop loose. Thanks for the tip. I’m gonna get them here before I pick up any loads

    • @Frontpagefab
      @Frontpagefab Před 2 lety

      @@Babylionhotshot Personally never had one pop open. I usually wrap the excess chain around the binder just in case..

    • @terryderush2657
      @terryderush2657 Před 2 lety +2

      Why are you telling him to get something. When what he's got is OK. He's trying to start out not go broke buying stuff he doesn't need.

  • @shortlife365
    @shortlife365 Před 4 měsíci +1

    Do you need a ELD even for non-CDL ?

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 4 měsíci

      Yes if your transporting stuff for money over 157 miles from your home base.

  • @guy9957
    @guy9957 Před rokem +4

    Truck/Trailer under 26K LBS, I understand that. Was wondering How much can you actually haul? As far as the load?

  • @tonywhite8983
    @tonywhite8983 Před rokem +1

    Just assuming that you’re non cdl, if your truck is 10k and trailer is 15k, does that mean your loads have to be light so that you are within limits?

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem +2

      Ya I can only carry about 10k or less. It really handicaps me. I’m looking into getting my CDL

    • @tonywhite8983
      @tonywhite8983 Před rokem +1

      @@Babylionhotshot thanks for the info. I’m looking into doing hotshot driving so your videos are helpful.

  • @rubenleon2103
    @rubenleon2103 Před rokem

    Question. Your combination is 25900 lbs. How many pounds can you carry?

    • @rubenjoto06
      @rubenjoto06 Před rokem +2

      Truck is about 8000 lbs and trailer about 5800 or so maybe more with equipment so he can tow up to 10000 pounds to stay below 26000

  • @Calvo1122
    @Calvo1122 Před rokem +2

    That setup of yours is it good for car hauling?

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem +1

      Horrible for car hauling lol found that out real quick. Can get cars up because the ramps are too big of an angle and you can only get one truck up there because it’s now long enough.

    • @Calvo1122
      @Calvo1122 Před rokem

      Ok ok thanks

  • @DavidW2233
    @DavidW2233 Před 4 měsíci +1

    What loadboard do you use?

  • @curtisevans6914
    @curtisevans6914 Před 2 lety +2

    I think the CDL rule is for truck, trailer and freight

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety

      Yes for over 26000 lbs

    • @jamesnelson5700
      @jamesnelson5700 Před 2 lety +2

      The CDL rule is for the CGVWR 26,001 freight weight comes into play after you weight the truck and trailer, then minus that number from 26000 and you’ll get what you can haul.mind you, you also can’t go over your axle ratings either

  • @MOONSHADOW-jx2tw
    @MOONSHADOW-jx2tw Před 2 lety +2

    So your allowed 100 lbs of cargo. All combined weight has to be under 26001 including cargo. Length law in Indiana WI. Is 60ft truck bumper to trailer bumper. As I understand it

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety

      So your allowed to weigh 26,000 pounds or less truck trailer and cargo. The the combined GVWR of truck and trailer is 25900 lbs in my case but the actual weight of the set up is around 15k lbs so I can haul around 10k lbs. And as far as length goes I know some states have different laws and I don’t know DOT rules supersede state laws.

    • @MOONSHADOW-jx2tw
      @MOONSHADOW-jx2tw Před 2 lety +1

      @@Babylionhotshot They go by GVWR of combined Vehicles. Then you gotta watch axle weight that goose neck has weight on the rear truck axle. If your GVWR IS 25900 YOUR ALLOWED 100LBS. to be under CDL requirements. 101lbs you need a CDL

    • @ptso7580
      @ptso7580 Před 2 lety

      Axles need to be scaled empty with truck and trailer to get better understanding of cargo weight. Add the weight on all axles truck trailer load has to be under 26k . Don't think he scale it at the time of the video.

    • @jamesnelson5700
      @jamesnelson5700 Před 2 lety +1

      @@MOONSHADOW-jx2tw you are confusing CGVWR with actual weight. To need a cdl, you are correct, but his truck and trailer doesn’t weigh 25900lbs empty. He needs to go to a scale and weigh it, then subtract that number from 26,000 and that’s the MAX he can legally haul. And he needs to check the axle ratings on that truck and the trailer so he doesn’t go over those either, that’s when the over weight ticket comes into play.

  • @Estronguista
    @Estronguista Před rokem +1

    I was wondering why you picked a F250 instead of the F350 ?

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem

      It’s just what I had. I have an f250 for hurricane season because that’s all I need. Then I decided to do hotshot. I would highly recommend the f350, as you probably know

    • @TheIncredibleHoosier
      @TheIncredibleHoosier Před rokem +1

      @@Babylionhotshot f250 is fine for hot shots.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem +1

      @@TheIncredibleHoosier it is, your right. Im just thinking about getting airbags installed because Idk how good it is for the stock suspension all the time.

  • @gunneredwards6609
    @gunneredwards6609 Před 5 měsíci

    Kay

  • @emilio7478
    @emilio7478 Před rokem +1

    Ware you recommend to get a trailer

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem +1

      I think the place I got mine is call American trailers in GA. But pretty much GA has the best prices.

  • @eldridge201
    @eldridge201 Před 2 lety +2

    Hey, I noticed that you just started this channel a few weeks ago. A suggestion for you as one person that watches quite a few CZcams videos.
    DO NOT PUT BACKGROUND MUSIC IN YOUR VIDEOS.
    Nobody cares about background music and it's typically annoying. You have to consider that people are watching these types of videos for the content and/or info in the video. People aren't watching to hear music. If they wanted to hear music, they could easily go to the site they are on (CZcams) and go and watch the hundreds of millions of different videos with music in them.
    Take it as you want but I know I'm not alone here.
    I know the music you had wasn't loud but that's not the point. Just don't have it at all. Also, I know you were trying to do a video to get one up but I would suggest to do it inside your vehicle if it's windy and just show the parts you need to show outside when necessary. It's not a big deal as we could hear you so it is what it is. But, I would suggest to try to minimize wind noise in your videos whenever possible.

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +1

      Thanks for the tip yeah I’ll probably just keep it out next time I know exactly what you mean. Thanks for the honesty and yeah the wind was annoying too. If I do it outside videos I’ll be more aware of that. Once again thanks for the constructive criticism

  • @Afridi-Ahad
    @Afridi-Ahad Před 2 měsíci

    I am immigrating to USA in late May 2024 can you hire me as non cdl driver I am really interested.

  • @King-hu3fe
    @King-hu3fe Před 2 lety

    Is that the gasoline tank in back of truck?

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +1

      No that’s the tool box but I have been thinking about changing it to an auxiliary fuel tank.

    • @logankeeton3564
      @logankeeton3564 Před rokem

      @@Babylionhotshot can you do a video of how to put a aux fuel tank on your truck

  • @Kingcold2002
    @Kingcold2002 Před 2 lety +1

    Is it possible if I can do it with a Ford F-350 srw diesel?

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před 2 lety +1

      Yes but you may need to get a smaller trailer. If you go with the trailer I got you need to make sure your truck has a GVWR of under 10,100 lbs

    • @Kingcold2002
      @Kingcold2002 Před 2 lety

      @@Babylionhotshot ok thank you soo much because I’m soon going to get a F350 srw with the 11,400 gvwr.

  • @blueleafevirosvc.inc.2796

    I have a F-250 2022. I am looking for a trailer. I have my cdl class a.

    • @NHZ_x4
      @NHZ_x4 Před 8 měsíci

      Just get a semi bro I’m doing. Hotshot right now trying to climb back into a rig sleeping in a pickup truck all week as opposed to a sleeper sucks less payloads less action at a lot

  • @shykheenwiseman876
    @shykheenwiseman876 Před rokem +2

    Diesel or gas

  • @krisrichey4785
    @krisrichey4785 Před rokem +1

    Unfortunately any trailer over 10001 is a cdl load. Federal law.

  • @yanikivanov
    @yanikivanov Před rokem

    If your trailer is under 10k pounds you dont need to go to any weight station...

  • @somphitchanemanivong9904

    WTF I have the same trailer and got it for 21k from BigTex

    • @Babylionhotshot
      @Babylionhotshot  Před rokem

      Damn that sucks, maybe because mine is a single rear wheel and not a tandum dually

  • @georgehuerta1990
    @georgehuerta1990 Před rokem +1

    You said you’re at 25,000 pounds but you’re empty as soon as you put anything on the trailer you’re going to be over the 26,000 pounds.

    • @mikelee8087
      @mikelee8087 Před 8 měsíci +1

      That’s what I was thinkin too

    • @frankdurp
      @frankdurp Před 14 dny

      15,900 is what the trailer is rated at total, it's empty weight is only around 5,000lbs depending on which exact model he has, giving him about 10,000lbs he can load the trailer with. Also the truck itself does not weigh 10,000lbs, that's its safe limit, that's what GVWR is.

  • @kevinramos5188
    @kevinramos5188 Před rokem

    Bro with weight and all you easily go over 26k pounds. If Truck is 10k and trailer Is 15k that’s already 25k so you telling me no cdl no I need a cdl what will I tow 1k pounds of air

    • @davidclements4937
      @davidclements4937 Před rokem

      Its based off actual weight. Like a 7k lb truck and that trailer is about 6k lb actual, that leaves 13k for towing non cdl. The trailer doesn't weigh 15k nor does the truck weigh 10k. A newer denali 3500 weighs up to 7500 lbs.

  • @alejandroacosta9521
    @alejandroacosta9521 Před rokem

    What app or wbsite do you use to find loads i want to start doin non cdl hot shot loads but dnt kno were to find them