GREECE | Another Turkey Reset?
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- On 7 December 2023, the President of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, visited Greece, where he met with the Greek Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis. The two leaders signed a series of bilateral agreements and a Declaration of Friendship (the Athens Declaration). But while the trip was hailed as a breakthrough in relations between the two countries, which have long been strained over various issues, many wonder if this is merely another in a long line of such efforts to mend relations.
Greece and Turkey - now officially known as the Republic of Turkiye - have had a long and difficult relationship. Shaped by a thousand years of history, following a series of wars in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the countries reached a peace agreement in July 1923, the Treaty of Lausanne. But while this laid the foundations for a good relationship over the next twenty years, tensions emerged in 1955 when an anti-colonial movement erupted in Cyprus, where Cypriots wanted to unite with Greece. Tensions emerged in the Aegean after the discovery of oil in the early 1970s. This led to several major crises. However, in 1999, the countries started a new process of rapprochement. But in recent years, tensions have been increasing again. And it’s against this backdrop that Erdogan’s visit has been hailed as a fresh start. But can this new spirit of cooperation last?
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VIDEO CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Titles
00:46 Conflict and Cooperation in International Relations
01:38 Greeks and Turks in History
03:05 The Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Greece
04:58 Greek-Turkish Relations, 1923-1955
05:59 Greek-Turkish Relations and Cyprus
08:14 Greek-Turkish Disputes in the Aegean
10:13 The 1999 Greek-Turkish Rapprochement
11:54 Greek-Turkish Tensions Return
13:42 A New Start in Greek-Turkish Relations?
SOURCES AND FURTHER READING
President of Turkey
www.tccb.gov.tr/en/
Prime Minister of Greece
www.primeminister.gr/en/home
Treaty of Lausanne | 24 July 1923
treaties.un.org/doc/publicati...
Aegean Continental Shelf Greece vs Turkey | ICJ
www.icj-cij.org/case/62
Davos Declaration | 1988
widgets.weforum.org/history/1...
Athens Declaration | 7 December 2023
www.primeminister.gr/en/2023/...
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DISCLAIMERS
- The contents of this video and any views expressed in it were not reviewed in advance nor determined by any outside persons or organisation.
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#Greece #Turkey #Türkiye
This is a very personal topic for me. My first job out of university was running an effort to try to improve Greek-Turkish relations. It was an incredible project full of ups and downs. (And I even wrote a book about it. See the link below.) However, thirty years later, we are hailing another new reset in their bilateral relations. So, will we now see an end to the perpetual cycle of crisis and cooperation between Greece and Turkey? Or is this latest effort to improve relations destined to eventually collapse? As always, let me know your thoughts and comments below.
www.bloomsbury.com/uk/crisis-and-conciliation-9781350172593/
İf Greece never want to USA give Viper tech to Turkey. it wont happen.
Ah. Good ol' British Empire's inability to draw borders.
😂😂
Kindly, please invest your time in another topic.
For a minute, come in the position of Greeks who lost all their lands for 400 years, and then managed to liberate only a small percentage of them. Don't ask Greeks to make peace with Turks. This is the most disgusting thing you can tell to Greeks.
I know that NATO wants peace between NATO members, but that can't be achieved by erasing history.
I am surprised you take the earthquake rapprochement seriously!!! It is the usa trick to protect the SE wing of NATO usually at the expense of greek interests...
I totally disagree with you as well as the majority of Greeks. This doesn't mean though that I am optimistic about future relations between Greece and Turkey
I am Turkish and i would love to have close relations with Greece i have been in Greece many times and Greeks are perfect people.
Love from Greece❤❤❤❤
@@navigator0950 ❤❤❤
As a Turk, I know nothing will change but I really want to get along with our neighbors, especially with Greece. Lot of love from Turkey to our komşu
bi bitmedinz
For the Greeks, let me say that we love you back. We tend to vote useless politicians who specialize in creating problems rather than in solving them. Other than that, I think most of us are actually quite fond of each other.
Return Istanbul and reestablish hagia Sophia as a cathedral as it originally was and that would be a good first step
@@54032Zepol At this point you’re better off asking Italy to become a province of Rome again. It’s been over 500 years, learn to move on and put the past behind to build a better future.
@@NexusApollo exactly a neo roman empire rising from Rome itself
I am Turkish from Australia and all my friends even very very best friend are all Greeks ❤
Thanks. Great point! The two peoples often find it easy to mix abroad. There are obviously a lot of commonalities, magnified when outside of the countries.
@@JamesKerLindsay Me and my group of Turkish and Greek friends we are all like family to each other. Our mums and dads and siblings all of us. We are there for each other on good and bad days. We even went on holiday to Greece and Turkiye together as a group. And guess what we all had the best time ever. This year again we are planning and we cant wait ❤️
I just finished reading professor Ker-Lindsay's book "Secession and State Creation: What Everyone Needs to Know"
I really recommend it. It is a really fascinating book to read.
Thanks so much, Tyrone. :-) it’s always really great to hear such a glowing endorsement. I reality appreciate it. It was a really interesting book to write. Have a great weekend!
as a greek , to me it seems like same bs different day , nothing will change ,
Sadly, I see where you are coming from. I’ve spent thirty years working on this, following it very closely. I’m usually a positive type of person, and I’d love nothing more than to see Greece and Turkey form a positive relationship, but I just get the sense that this will be another false start. Still, we can but hope!
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes never give up hope.
I agree with "never give up hope" which is a Christian concept but in this case I can't see any hope. Sadly. Maybe a catastrophic earthquake or something similar can change the situation in front of a common disaster. The Greeks lost Costantinopoli to the Turks. Do you think its memory will ever die in the Greek soul? It will never disappear. @@djelalhassan7631
@@JamesKerLindsay Instead of being a positive person, why not be a realistic one? Not negative, but realistic!
@@djelalhassan7631Hope if the first step, on the road to disappointment.
Fun fact: In 1987 crisis the Turkish Leader Ozal ordered Turkish oil ships to sail to the Aegean sea. The Greek Leader Papandreou warned that he would sink any Turkish ship in the region. Both armies mobilized to the borders. That period of time Greece had its armies divided in the Greco-Bulgarian and Greco-Turkish borders because Bulgaria was a member of the Warsaw pact.
In the following days the Greek Leader sent his FM to Bulgaria in order to find out Bulgaria's intentions in a case of a Greco-Turkish war. The Bulgarian Leader Zivkov responded "tell to my Greek friend and collegue that Greece has nothing to fear from Bulgaria and he can relocate his armies to the Greco-Turkish borders" something that paved the way for Greece to transfer much more troops from the Greco-Bulgarian borders to the Greco-Turkish borders.
A few hours later, new info arrived, the Bulgarian Leader ordered the Bulgarian troops to move from the Greco-Bulgarian borders to the Bulgarian-Turkish borders. After a few hours the Turkish Leader Ozal ordered his ships to return back to their ports and the crisis ended.
Blimey! I’d not heard that before. I knew the two countries came very close to war. But I didn’t know about the strong Bulgarian element. Fascinating.
@@JamesKerLindsay it is a true story. Bulgaria's response and Bulgaria's reaction to move its troops from the Greco-Bulgarian borders to the Bulgarian-Turkish borders was the marking point that made the Turkish Leader to call back his ships in fear of a general war Turkey vs Greece + Bulgaria. The Greek Leader Papandreou of that period was a far socialist and had warm relations with the Soviets and their Eastern European allies.
Well said but add that Bulgaria had allowed greece to move through her territory and avoid Turkish defences to strike and encircle their army.
I remember 87 very well, I'd packed my bags and was making my way to Greece from Australia to join the inevitable war that didn't happen. I was in the adf at the time which created a few legal headaches.
@@eliassolomou980 to get your a.. kicked like in 1919 or Dardanelles.
Ridiculous
Dude. I'm speed running your entire channel. I have enjoyed every one of your vids so far. Thanks a lot for your work, and specially, for make in it easy to watch. I learnt a lot. Greetings from Chile
Haha! Great. Thanks so much. It’s always nice to hear such kind praise. 😀 Warmest regards!
You bugs bunny?
😂
This approach has nothing to do with friendship. Turkey approaches Greece only because they want the F-16 fighters and other military equipment, cause of the sanctions due to the installation of the S-400 System and other unfriendly actions.
Most probably the USA pushed Erdogan to work on his punch list.
Greece is only one topic on this list.
Lol
US refused to sell them patriots then cries when they buy from someone else lmao
@@exarder1377 US refused to sell them Patriot because Turkey has no credible threat in the air. Another reason is because Turkey is untrustworthy as an ally and this is proven by its attacks to US allies in Syria and by its alignment with Russia.
Greece and Bulgaria also purchased S-300 systems from Russia but no NATO country talked or complained about it... 🙄 lmao
@_semih_ No, Greece did not buy any S300 ever. Cyprus did and they were then moved to Greece after agreement with NATO. They are stored in Crete and are not in active duty. Get your facts right.
I am Greek native, and almost 70 years old. The only thing I remember throughout my life between Greece and Turkey is constant friction between the two countries, and I don’t think that’s gonna go away anytime soon. Constantly Turkey possess demands , and projects her imperial colonial ambitions thought out against her surrounding countries especially with Greece. I think Turkey have big regrets for losing an Empire, and delusionally dreams stitching back those long by gone imperial glories. I’m afraid that is only going to lead to a very bad outcome for both nations for sure. Time will tell. 🇬🇷🏛️🇬🇷🇨🇾🏺🇨🇾🇬🇷🏛️🇨🇾✌️🏺✌️
unfortunately the greek military dictatorship decided to violate international law, annex sovereign cyprus and massacre all the muslims on the island. Turkey hat the contractiual right to protect the minorities. Secondly greece violated the treaty of lausanne and remilitarizes islands that are only a few kilometres away from the turkish coast which could pssibly trigger a cuba crisis like situation.
greece has to stop its nationalistic ambitions and come back to the bargaining table to solve all matters peaceful. We understand that you are still heartbroken because of the crushing defeats in Izmir and canakkale but you have to leave behind your authoritarian moves. 🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
Maybe the Turks can learn from the Brits on how to manage their imperial decline.
Well, let's take the problems between Turkey and Greece:
1. Greece's demand to extend its territorial waters to 12 miles and Turkey's refusal to accept this.
2. Greece's declaration that it has increased its airspace over the islands to 10 miles and Turkey's refusal to accept this.
3. Greece's claim that all the islands in the Aegean, whose status has not been finalized by Lausanne, belong to it, and Turkey's refusal to accept this.
4. Greece's claim that the Aegean islands and the island of Meis have an exclusive economic zone, which Turkey does not accept.
5. Greece overthrew the Cypriot government by staging a military coup in 1974 in order to annex the island of Cyprus; Turkey rejected this and exercised its guarantor rights.
It seems to me that Greece is the side that is constantly demanding.
@@gladyus3731well said ! Thank you for all your efforts in explaining the disagreement between the two nations
@@gladyus3731 Greece's demands for exclusive zones and territorial waters are 100% covered by international law, Turkey illegally threats Greece with war if Greece claim what it's legally owns in the Aegean see. The only Greek fault is the 1974 coup which we should always remember that is staged by a non legitimate government (non elected) but this not gives the right to Turkey to have untill today occupation forces in the island
May peace blossom between Greece and Turkey. The Aegean and Mediterranean, cradles of Western civilization, are among the world's most breathtaking landscapes. Peace would not only benefit Greeks and Turks, but also ripple outwards, fostering cooperation, sharing, and kindness across the globe.
Nice thought, but not very likely, as Erdogan threatens to "come one night" and his propagandists trot out maps showing Greek islands as part of the so-called "Mavi Vatan."
As a Greek i really hope for peaceful relations between Greece and Turkey (since i have met many Turks in my visits there and they are wonderful people) but i doubt about it..
i believe that Erdogan just wants to buy some time until the USA sign a deal with him for the sale of new F-16 that Turkey wants but the American Congress rejects using as an excuse, among others, the overflies of Turkish F-16 above internationally recognized Greek islands.
In general, when it comes to "maritime issues" Greece and Turkey have totally different point of view. For Greece, as it happens with all states with islands, "islands matters on maritime rights". For other countries with a few islands like Turkey, "Size matters". Sooner or later these "maritime issues" as well as the Cyprus occupation issue will rise again.
Finally, Erdogan says that he will not threat Athens with ballistic missiles IF Athens does not threat Turkey. For Turkey "threat by Greece" is concidered the American bases in Greece for example,. All day the Turkish Media talk about the American bases in Greece describing it as a major a threat for Turkey. Erdogan himself talk to the media asking the reason of American bases so close to the Turkish borders (American base in Alexandroupoli port-city etc)
The US/NATO bases in Greece considered a threat by Turkey- quite ridiculous isnt it?
Given that both counries are NATO members + there are US/NATO military bases in Turkey itself.
So all in all, just a cheap ridiculous excuse for ignorant people in Turkey, where anti-western/USA sentiment is rampant.
@@alexisgateley230 boogles my mind why Turkey is in Nato. Erdogan seems to be buddy buddy with Putler.
@@Nedula007 Erdogan also assists Putin to evade Western sanctions. Turkey's exports to Russia skyrocked to +60%, most of them are European products and machinery "made in Turkey".. On the other hand, Erdogan has no choice since Russia has tied Turkey to its energy "horse" a few years ago (Gas, nuclear power etc). The same case with Germany, but in this case Germany had the euros to fight its strong dependency on Russian fuels, Erdogan does not
Erdogan is in Greece because of the desperate economic situation in Turkey.
There will never be a solution to the Cyprus problem as long as Erdogan or anybody with his ideas is in power in Turkey.
.
greece is nothing more than just a satellite state of the US in the region at this point.. greece can not be a threat for türkiye also as a single entity.. but it is just part of it.. the vast majority of geopolitical threats against türkiye today come from the US and the so-called NATO allies.. so, greece is just in the position of a proxy here.. sort of how the collective west has been using ukraine against russia.. greece has always been the spoilt child of the west.. so, they will always take their side against türkiye regardless of facts and realities..
As a person living in greece this is a move towards the right step, although i can't shake off the feeling that this is all just formalities where each side supposedly shows friendship and then each go their own way again, ergo nothing will change in the long run.
Let's hope for the best. Both Greece and Turkiye will benefit a great deal more by working together than not. Peace ✌🏻
Never trust a Snake - Aesop's fable "The Farmer and the Snake"
Erdogan and agreement. Words that should never be used together.
One doesn't sign an agreement with a snake....
10 times more reliable than the West
Has Turkey ever compromised on any deal going back in history.
As a Greek it’s self evident who I think is right on this so I won’t say anything about the situation. I will say however that this is the best analysis on the issue on CZcams so far. Great work Doctor!
Thank you very much indeed. I really and truly appreciate it. (And please do perhaps share it if you know anyone else who might be interested.) I’d like to be more optimistic and positive. But having worked on Greek-Turkish relations for many years, this just doesn’t feel like the breakthrough we need to see.
@@JamesKerLindsay thank you for your reply! I already shared with many people before I saw your comment! I also think it’s a tactical move, both parties are buying time for different reasons, the Turks desperately need the F16s from the Americans (amongst other weapon systems) and money for the rebuild of the earthquake hit areas (first estimations were over $20B at the time). The powerful Jewish lobby is working with Greek, Armenian and Kurdish lobbies to prevent the U.S. government from providing them with any weapons. The Greeks on the other hand need time to rebuild their military after the terrible austerity measures of years past. It’s a matter of time before things escalate again and with the decision being in the hands of one man only (Erdogan) it’s anyone’sz guess when this will happen! Thank you for all your hard work! I watch your videos religiously!
@@JamesKerLindsay There is only one policy that has proved effective when it comes to Turkey: Force and Containment.
Unfortunately Turkey has oversold both its importance and its intentions as a force of stability and balance.
It has clearly shifted to the East while sucking on Western resources.
Furthermore and most dangerously it has infiltrated through secret services, shady transaction netwoks and unmatched diplomacy into the ranks of Western political leaders who steadily push forward its anti western strategic objectives
Post 1955, Turkey has been the one that sets the tone in the Greco-Turkish bilateral relations, by being the aggressor and the revisionist party. In this case, Turkey found itself wounded after the devastating earthquakes and needing to navigate a very complex environment in its immediate north (Russian invasion of Ukraine) and the south (Kurds in Syria/Iraq and Israel vs Hamas). So it makes sense for Turkey to tone down its actions and rhetoric vs Greece in an attempt to appear more attractive for western investors, satisfy the term set by congress that it needs to stop violating Greek airspace if it wants to receive new F16s and avoid an escalation that would cost dearly in monetary terms. So this is just a tactical maneuver with an expiration date. Hostilities will resume when Erdogan sees fit.
Thanks for another great video. The topic is now literally very close to home for you. Wishing your all the best. T
I didn't know about that trip, thanks prof! it would be so wonderful if the cyprus issue could finally be resolved, it's so sad what those people have had to live with for the last decades, at no fault of their own.
Zypern wird nicht gelöst werden, Zypern wird eingefroren.
Thanks. With so much else going on, it didn’t really get a lot of attention.
Nice one Lindsay
Nope, the usual détente before the new storm, without counting Cyprus...
Thanks. Sadly, that’s my sense too.
@@JamesKerLindsay Why you sad? War is part of Humanity. A bad thing, sure. But it's what makes us Human. And undortunately, most Westerners have forgotten that. Should the zealotous hordes of the east come crashing down on Europe, we will be defeated in but a few months.
Amazingly detailed, well done!
Thanks so much. It was a little longer than most of my videos, but this is a subject that is very close to my heart and there was a lot of history to get through. But I hope that it was interesting and cast light on this fascinating and complex relationship.
@@JamesKerLindsay to top it all off, its a subject not well taught in western classrooms! I think the historical context was highly necessary
@@johnndamascene Thanks. You’re absolutely right. We’re never taught the history of Byzantium in schools. And the Ottoman Empire tends to get a rather cursory overview.
Excellent! Thanks for covering this topic is a great balance way. There will always be a natural tension between Greece & Turkey, but I believe that liberal political leadership in Turkey would produce a more conducive environment. Thanks for the great content!
Thank you so much, Andrew. I know there was a lot to cover, and some will always ask why I chose to cover one aspect but not another. Still, hopefully, it was a fair and accurate explanation of this extremely interesting but complex relationship.
Very good summary, thanks, peace.
Thanks a lot. There was a lot of history to condense in this one. More than usual.
@@JamesKerLindsay Yes true, and you was fair, in a very difficult subject.
Great knowledge
Hooray! I love both Greece and Turkey
We are aware that, the wolf never changes its ways…
Excellent as usual.
Thanks so much, Clement. Always appreciated!
@@JamesKerLindsay You are very welcome
to be fair, as we speak, Erdo plans something on cyprus.
I dont think we will ever have 'good' relations.
Maybe he's going to create a *Turkish Theme Park* in Cyprus. 🤔🙄😳😬😱
You cant have any relations with a snake!
I have just watched the First five Minutes and I have to say i am satisfied by the objektive summary of history.
Thank you. I try to be fair and balanced. I have worked in Greek-Turkish relations for many decades. I would like to see a positive relationship. It isn’t easy. But it is important.
It’s easy; everyone abide by and respect international law and treaties that determine sovereign borders at land and at sea. That’s it; so easy, yet so impossible with expansionist Turkey, as evidenced in Cyprus, in Syria, in Iraq, in Libya, in the Caucasus…
Yes and no. On the continental shelf, things are unclear. But Greece wants to solve it through the ICJ. Turkey would prefer direct discussions. On water and air, Greece is contravening international law and not. Countries are meant to align their territorial waters and airspace. But Greece has 6nm waters and 10nm airspace. The trouble is that it could align both at 12nm, but Turkey won’t accept this. But while Turkey isn’t a signatory to UNCLOS, it has taken advantage of the Convention to extend its waters in the Black Sea and Mediterranean to 12nm. On minorities, Turkey has treated the Greeks badly over time, and there are hardly any left - a huge problem for when it comes time to appoint a new Patriarch of Constantinople - the most important figure in the Orthodox Christian faith, who must be a Turkish citizen. But Greece has treated the Muslims terribly too. For decades it had a policy of striping people of their citizenship if they left. And it steadfastly refuses them to call themselves Turkish if they so wish. Frankly, it’s a mess on contradictions and complications. The sad thing is that it could all be resolved relatively easily with goodwill.
@@JamesKerLindsay the issue is that Turkey refuses to concede that islands also have continental shelves, as made clear in the UNCLOS Treaty. As you said, Turkey hypocritically also accepts the treaty as customary maritime law by a la carte application of it where it benefits them. As far as the Muslim minority, Greece has consistently upheld the Lausanne Treaty's definition of "Muslim," which is actually a legacy of the Ottoman millet system, where populations were exchanged based on religion, not ethnicity. This minority is composed of ethnic Roma, Pomaks and Turks; however the Turkish consulate in Komotini has been fomenting secessionism about a so-called "Bati Trakya" republic in Greek Thrace in order to achieve a Kosovo-like situation there. They have also pressured non-Turk Greek Muslims to identify as Turk, while Turkey's Diyanet has infiltrated mosques and openly stirs dissent against the Greek state. While it is true that over 30 years ago Greece stripped some 7,000 Muslims of their Greek citizenship, Greek Muslims enjoy the same rights as all EU citizens, and there has been minority representation in the Greek parliament for years. Based on the fact that the Muslim minority in Greek Thrace--a legacy of the population that was exempt from the 1924 exchange--is 150K+ strong, while the remaining Greek Orthodox population in Turkey (Rum) is 1,500 souls (an ethnic boutique) down from a 1924 population of 200K+ brought about by state-sponsored persecutions and pogroms designed to rob them of their wealth and eliminate the native Greek presence in Istanbul, Imbros and Tenedos, I feel that your attempt to balance the the two, especially in light of Turkey's historic abuse of the Lausanne Treaty vis-a-vis its Greek minority, is a false equivalency.
Thank you Sir 👍
Thank you.
Best video for this topic!
Thank you!
It's a period of detente. The differences are historical, partly religious, partly cultural, and they run deep.
As a greek, I have to respectfully say that we don’t see this deal as a gesture of friendship. We see it as treason from our political elites, and as proof of how low our once great country has come. We have a word for men that surrender without terms: Shieldthrower. Mitsotakis is a shieldthrower.
Mitsotakis is low cost Mr. Bean. And do you really believe Greece can resist Turkish power? Your destiny is to became our servants again.
Since when your country was great?
@@quibs8347 since we marched 10km from Ankara, wearing military Uniforms.
Irredentism will only pull you down sunshine. Get over your past.@@pitoblogg
@@quibs8347 We are not trying to restore any empires. Turkey is. So it is silly to accuse us of Irredentism.
excellent analysis!
Thank you very much.
I think it is difficult to last. New American weapons arrive soon (because the greek islands can't be unprotected), Turkey will probably say that this is provocative action, so here we go again. At same time, Turkey has the 4th army of the Aegean which's task in islands' invasion. This area will never be at rest..
As a Turk, I am pleased to watch a commentary video from none related 3rd person. Politics screwing both nations. We actually so close to each other in so many ways like cultural, food, music arts ect...
Indeed, but we also both share the same narrow mind...
"We actually so close to each other in so many ways like cultural, food, music arts ect..." You believe this fairy tale? Lol.
@@georgedevries3992 fairy tale you think? I assume you have never been to west cost in Turkey or Istanbul, also never walked in front of a restaurant and smell something which might be really familiar to you or did not hear a melody by any chance which I am sure you might feel the resemblance.. maybe not ...
@@gerassimos.fourlanos lol definitely
@@georgedevries3992 I live in Canada and I worked and lived Greeks for so many years and yes I do believe!
As a Greek I found this video accurate, mesured and informative. It was a plesent surprize and kind of strange to hear an impartial overview of events I've learned and lived from within my country. Thanks!
Thank you so much. I know I covered a lot of history (and I am actually sceptical about the role of history in many conflicts), but in this case, I thought it would be good to include it to put everything in its proper context.
Keep up the good work, "Subscribe" was a nobrainer!!!@@JamesKerLindsay
Erdogan is not the type of leader who values alliances or agreements. He's a smart man who basically uses whatever leverage he can to maximize Turkey's advantage (and to be fair, you can't blame him for doing that). On the broader historical perspective, Greco-Turkish relations always seem to ebb and flow between mortal enemies to reluctant frenemies, and I highly doubt in these geopolitically charged times and with Erdogan in power anything will really change.
_"uses whatever leverage he can to maximize Turkey's advantage (and to be fair, you can't blame him)."_
Hard disagree. While it's true that leaders need to look after their country's interests, this pre-WW2 mentality of doing whatever you can to maximize your power and territory is exactly why all of humanity fought endless wars for millennia before WW2. The world is in a post-WW2 era where more emphasis needs to be put on doing what's right and respecting sovereignty. Ethics must always be prioritized at least as high as a country's self-interest.
😂😂 Erdoğan is the best possible person to bring about lasting deals
Turkiye accepts a resolution in International Court for sea areas but Greece declines cause they know they will loose for sure. Why? Lets see. Greece has no right in eastern mediterranean sea. Greece has a a mainland and is not a islands country. Thats why all islands can not have 12 miles shore just like the islands of England near to France and islands of China near to Japan or anywhere in the world. Turkiye will not accept this and Greece's sea area in east mediterranean sea. Turkiye accepts a resolution in International Court but Greece doesnt cause they know this issue very well that they will loose the case as well as US and UK. Thats why US does not interfere with this issue and UK. But EU is not acting according to the laws and they want all natural resources in sea. Turkiye wants to share, Greece and EU wants them all.
I don’t think that is true. At every moment he is a disaster waiting to happen. No one trust him and rightfully so.
@@pointblank722 facts
It’s interesting James when you’ve spoken before about whether history causes modern conflict, and you’ve said no, that modern conflict is based on modern issues (in one of your Q&As you’ve discussed this). I think we can say conflict is based on modern issues, but when there is long, complex and bloody history like there is with Greece and Turkey, then that massively influences perceptions, decision-making and the general national psyche.
If you heard the professor's historical outline, you would note there is a history of constant flip-flopping. extortion and strongarming on the part of Turkey(it is not the Greeks who show weakness here, but NATO which tolerates such behaviour of the Turks). What prof. didn't mention is the 1922 genocide, that Greeks were cornered to accept population displacement, the Turks have not recognized the Sea of the Law and the Libya - Turkish agreement is just outlandish for any country to accept, that Turkey is one of the major centers of human trafficking and much more, that Erdogan creates forums based on some Turin doctrine-united Turkish countries and wishes to see a federation or Pan-Islamism and wants to reclaim all Ottoman Empire lost territory including the Balkans and Jerusalem(that is why Hamas' major centers is located in Instanbul) and last, that there is a casus belli by the Turks even though all these tourist and business agreements were signed. As for Cyprus, the 1/5 moslem population identify themselves as Cypriots and are being displaced by the Turks with other moslem populations that are loyal to Erodgan.. they are fleeing the island... So yes, in the case of Greece Turkey, this why you study history and note the flip flop pattern as data...
Thanks, Thomas. You are absolutely right! I am sceptical about the role of history in many modern conflicts. And as someone who has worked on Greek-Turkish relations for 30 years, I always emphasise that the difficulties are based on modern legal issues. But the reality is that the wider relationship is shaped by perceptions of the past. I thought giving a full background to put everything into context would be interesting.
It's ironic that Turkey calls Israel occupiers while they occupy Cyprus.
They do not
for decades...
And especially after they expelled 140.000 Greeks of Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos with the pogrom of 1955 and the erime programisi of 1978.
And all of these atrocities happened while Greece honoured its signature in the Treaty of the Lausanne and still has 130 to 140.000 Muslims in Western Thrace, safe and well protected under Greek Law.
That's true it's ironic when Erdogan says that.
@@CaptainHarlock-kv4zt
You don't even accept the existence of Western Thrace Turks. Then you try to establish a connection between the Greek minority in Turkey and the "Muslims" in Greece. One is an ethnic minority and the other is a religious minority. Okay, so there are a few hundred thousand Christians living in Turkey. Mostly Armenians, Assyrians, Russians and other Europeans. Are you satisfied now? There is no longer any problem for the non-existent Greek minority because you presented the problem as a religious problem from the very beginning.
Systematic presentation , easy to understand and hope that these two nation will serve as a lesson around the world.
Thank you so much. Let's hope that something can come from this.
it is a welldone video prf.JamesKerLindsay thanks for the job
Thanks so much. I had wanted to take a look at the broad sweep of Greek-Turkish relations for quite a while. It’s a fascinating and complex story.
Now I Know why Most of the Neighbor country's Don't Like Turkey‽.. i feel Sorry for All Of Them... I will never go back there for Vacation....
I have a question here, you use the pic on 05.05 eleftherios venizelos and Atatürk but I don't think its a true information. There are even pics on Google shows that he is Hüseyin bababalim.
So pls could you check it and if im wrong correct me.
Thx!
Great video. Unfortunately it is very hard to trust Erdogan"s intentions. He acts dictatorial within his country and sees Turkey as a peripheral giant with little disregard for any of his neighbors. His decision to be friendly with Greece seems to be not genuine but out of necessity and thus unlikely to last. I doubt that it will lead to any real progress in relations (solution in Cyprus or continental shelf agreement) but one can only hope. Love from Greece to our neighbors
Sir
The Turkey's foreign policy, is NOT up to Erdogan, or any Erdogan.
We all know this ...
Erdogan is much more democratic leader than Biden. Erdogan has multiple political opponents - but Biden has Trump only. Turkey has a multiparty system - but USA hasn't. Erdogan's power is based on the coalition of multiple parties - but Biden's not. Turkey has a huge variety of ideologies - but USA hasn't. The Turkish press publishes huge variety of opinions - but American press doesn't. Erdogan is not able to make disregard to other countries - but Biden is. Erdogan's policy is understandable - but Biden's policy is a black box. Biden is a war criminal responsible for Palestinian Genocide - but Erdogan is not.
It's definitely not a 1-for-1, but as someone of Korean descent I can't help but see multiple parallels between Greco-Turkish relations and that of Korean-Japanese relations.
A very complicated history between two regional neighbors that respectively have a rich history with stunning highs and terrifying lows where you can't help but see that each is defined very much in their development by how they interact with the other.
It's a rather bipolar dynamic, in lack of a better term but with time and enough good will, I think in both cases there is so much potential if cooperation is pursued and maintained considering how deeply intertwined each is with their respective counterpart.
Of course in the complicated realm of international relations, it is easier said than done, but as someone who is a student of history and believes the past is important but doesn't need to define the future -if cooler heads can prevail and collaboration occurs I do think in both cases a lot of good can come from it. But I guess we'll have to wait and see considering the very real pattern of potential hurdles to said collaboration that you outlined here.
Great video as usual, btw!
What about your northern neighbors ?
Turkiye accepts a resolution in International Court for sea areas but Greece declines cause they know they will loose for sure. Why? Lets see. Greece has no right in eastern mediterranean sea. Greece has a a mainland and is not a islands country. Thats why all islands can not have 12 miles shore just like the islands of England near to France and islands of China near to Japan or anywhere in the world. Turkiye will not accept this and Greece's sea area in east mediterranean sea. Turkiye accepts a resolution in International Court but Greece doesnt cause they know this issue very well that they will loose the case as well as US and UK. Thats why US does not interfere with this issue and UK. But EU is not acting according to the laws and they want all natural resources in sea. Turkiye wants to share, Greece and EU wants them all.
@@uncommon_name9337 that thing has only existed for 70 years .not very long compared to their rivalry with japan .
@@uncommon_name9337 I can only speak for myself but from my understanding as someone who tries to be informed on geopolitics the world over and not just in one particular region -I would say that the situation with the North is more akin to the division between Vietnam, Germany, and/or Ireland than it would be to that of Greece and Turkey.
Perhaps that can change in the future as circumstances evolve and new conditions emerge but as someone who was born in Seoul prior to this century and at the tail end of the prior one (i.e. in 1996) -I firmly believe that reunification with ROK as the one in the driver seat is the best outcome.
However, as someone who believes in preparing for the worst case scenario, I am under no illusion that if Washington and Seoul somehow screw things up, which unfortunately is still possible, then perhaps Pyongyang could somehow be the one who ends up reunifying the peninsula and solidifying the reign of the Kim Dynasty for the long-term.
I really hope the latter isn't the case and hence it's why as someone who is critical of Japan's imperial past, despite whatever valid misgivings can be had, I think eventually Koreans will need to move on and get over the darkest parts of what happened in the 20th century for the greater good.
Obviously just like in the case of Greco-Turkish relations, the real trauma of what occurred shouldn't be forgotten but at some point in order to achieve genuine progress you need to accept and find a way to not let the past define what is going to happen in the future.
I think just like with Greece-Turkey the relations between the Republic of Korea and Japan will be able to improve with time and with the right decisions being made by those in leadership positions. But that's just my view based on the situation and am open to alternative viewpoints on such matters.
@@belstar1128 Yeah, I appreciate your input and would agree that at the moment the comparison isn't the most appt. considering what you mentioned and other circumstances that make the situation more akin to Vietnam, Germany, and/or Ireland. Especially the latter since the former two have for better and worse achieved reunification.
A very good historical wrapping up
Thank you very much indeed.
Before some elections the tensions will raise up again, especially in Turkey where outside enemies are needed for regime security
That's not true one bit. majority love erdogan and his achievements.
This is probably my bias kicking in here but i cant help but notice almost all of nations that have land once part of the former ottoman empire are in some type of conflict at the moment, from Crimea to Kosovo to Israel to Armenia & Azerbaijan to Yemen to Syria etcetera etcetera. In your academic view do you think that's more coincidental or is there something to be learned here about the collapse of empires & how future situations can be done better as to not leave such long term consequences that keep cropping up? Thanks for the thought provoking content!
As much knowledge as you have about this topic, it will be very interesting if you do a video including guests, renowned Doctorate professors of international law from both countries, and as a host, ask questions.
Thanks. I have been thinking about doing an interview format at some stage. It’s a question of finding the time and getting a few other things sorted out. But, to be very honest, in this case I’m not sure a debate as you say would really shed much light on things.
Well spoken.
Thank you very much.
The treaty of lausagne, does not reffer anything about demitilarized islands. It says about having normal defense but not make nautical bases nor fortifications.
.....which they ( Greeks) made nautical bases and fortifications with the BIG help of US .
@@istanbullubenim5543 where did that happen? Tell us, cause it didn’t happen in any of the islands that the treaty referred to. And don’t forget that the treaty, also says about demilitarisation of the west coast of turkey, and about the autonomy of 2 islands of turkey with almost entirely Greek population ( imbros and tenedos), that turkey didn’t respect, and the same treaty is also guarantee the safety and rights of hundreds of thousands of Greek inhabitants of Istanbul, who turkey, afterwards stole their fortunes, killed, sent by force to Greece, rape, etc, etc.
8:50 This is a mistake. Territorial waters of 3 miles is not IN the Treaty of Lausanne, if it was it wouldn't have changed. Three miles were the typical territorial waters AT THE TIME of the Treaty of Lausanne.
Thanks. Indeed. I misspoke. But the point stands. Greece had 3nm in 1923. It extended it to 6nm in the 1930s. Relations were better at that point and so it went unremarked. (Although I didn’t have time to cover the extension of airspace to 10nm - an anomaly under international law. But Turkey didn’t object to that. In fact, the only country to raise an eyebrow was Britain.)
Even in Florida if you go on a casino ship you can't place a bet until the ship is at the 3 mile mark I guess three miles is the standard.
Great video. As a Turk, I do believe there can be peace between the two peoples, so long as both sides uphold their commitments towards good relations. I've visited both sides of Cyprus and it's incredible how similar they are, putting aside religion. The main obstacle to unification, however, is land/property swaps and who gets what.
Thank you so much. Yes, the two sides are still remarkably similar. It is a tragedy that a solution hasn’t been found. As well as the land and property issue, the questions of governance and security are also major obstacles. Let’s hope that a settlement can be found. But sadly it seems more and more directly to see this happening with every passing year.
@JamesKerLindsay Very well said. Despite being NATO members, their differences put them at odds militarily, especially over the Agean Islands, as you eloquently pointed out. It is hard to see past these deep-seated obstacles, but I remain hopeful. It's also interesting to read about the oil reserves off the Gazan coast as well as Israel and what that may mean for Greece and Turkey. I believe Turkey was excluded in the discourse around any lucrative deals. Ideally, a win-win would be fantastic, but you would know better than me that this is easier said than done for this complex region!
people have a lot in common but also differences
Turkey is the most chauvinistic country, no matter who rules. Politically there is no progress, it remained in the interwar period from 1920 to 1940
There is a deep state that runs everything like a mafia gang
60-80% of the population are supporters of Islamic or ultranationalist parties, whose influence is inevitably shifting to Europe
If Turkey achieved a small democratic culture, this state would collapse.
This cannot be managed with democracy like in Europe, which is also the reason why you governed autocratically
Europe has values from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, Turkey historically could not live with such values
He considers it normal to wage military campaigns to slaughter other peoples and steal their wealth. He still does it today in Iraq, in Syria, but also in Europe with the thousands of mosques in which he propagates warmongering for Europe, as he did for centuries with the Ottoman Empire, where every person in southern Europe was with the pirates was destroyed for the slave markets of the East
it is far behind politically and in terms of basic human values
Democracy, freedom of expression and criticism are unknown in Turkey
@@panagiotis7946 hiding and harboring terrorists in your state embassy tell a lot about Greek democracy and how gently it works when it comes to making peace and constructing honest affairs. still it would be too simplistic to get for ''non-chauvinistic'' Greeks as they probably have their excuses for this kind of things. lol never underestimate Greek arrogancy as an obstacle to peace building. overall whether because of Turkish deep state or Greek high democracy, hope for a peaceful settlement to the issues between Greece and turkey is little to zero. as much as it sounds pessimist preparing for the next conflict between two is the most realistic approach. should pray for the enlighten one to prevail
Turkish and Greek Cypriots are almost identical and certainly a lot more similar than Greeks and Turks are
5:03 - This is not Eleftherios Venizelos meeting with Kemal.
Dear Prof James Ker-Lindsay,
I agree with your assessment on the Greek-Turkish relations. Your knowledge on this topic is spot on.
I agree with your last assessment that this new friendship will only last until the next crises.
In my opinion resolving the disputes (and there are many of them) through dialogue between these two nations/neighbours is not possible as these disputes go back to 1,000 years with the arrival of Seljuk Turks into Anatolia and since then all disputes between Greeks and Turks were resolved through armed conflict… And in the future this pattern will remain the same. So eventually (not that I wish it, but) another war between Greeks and Turks is likely scenario as the history tells us.
This is the hard reality in my opinion… And I think deep down you agree with me on this.
MSB
You got it 100%. The Greeks and Turks will give up nothing in negotiations and deals reached will be castigated and soon repudiated if so much as 1 iota of “rights” are relinquished.
Very doubtful that this is all in good faith for peace. Nothing has changed between these two nations.
Somehow I feel that F16 fighter jet acquisitions and Sweden joining NATO has something to do with these proposals.
Thanks. Excellent point. This could well be another important factor.
Adding to my last view. That Greece was the first to come to help, says VOLUMES. During the good times they really like and respect each other,a very positive attitude and sign.
Both Turkey and Greece have to admit that they had many such sessions before and they didn’t last very long. What they need is an all-compassing agreement to tackle one problem at a time and agree on to meet again to discuss others within a few months. They should agree to find permanent solutions and definitely without any mediation by Any foreign power. They must agree to disagree as well and keep their public fully informed all the time. I wish them pleasant discussions.
Exactly the same conversation we had 2004 this friendship lasted only 5 years after that Erdogan find a new role to play . Now again same talks witch in some years is going to be forgotten again cause the wolf doesn’t change the fur just he changes the hair
Unfortunately the Greeks of Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos were subjected to pogroms and finally were expelled from Turkey.
On the contrary, the Muslim population of Greece still lives in Thrace,well protected and more over it has multiplied.
This is not true. They were both exchanged. We still have Greek minorities and their churches thru out the country. How many mosques you have in Greece open for public? We have 10 times more greekvorthodox churches in Turkey
@@hasankilic9825 The 140.000 Greek Orthodox population of Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos and the 120.000 Muslim population of Western Thrace in Greece were excluded from the Treaty.
Now ,after 100 years, the muslims of Western Thrace in Greece are around 140.000 . The Greeks of Turkey are around 450-600 people. As for the mosques in Greece there are plenty. In every muslim village there is one or two.
I guess they no-one told you about the 1955 pogrom and the eritme programisi of 1978 in Imvros and Tenedos...
@@hasankilic9825Here's a suggestion... Why dont you ask Professor James? Or, even better, why don't you do a little research on your own?
There are 270 mosques in operation in Greek Thrace alone...in Turkey there are only basically some empty churches left used mainly for tourist purposes/income - those not converted into mosques...
@@CaptainHarlock-kv4zt In the first place, there is no race or nation called muslims !! They are Greek Turkish. You can not even write it!! My family have grape lands in Tenedos and I know the island since back my childhood. There were not more than 1.000 Greek Turkish living in this island in those years as total population of the island was not more than 3.000 people!! So you should better check your own investigation. Prof. James has nothing to do with it...
You are unbiased!
Senator Bob Menendez
What do you call a country:
Which violates the airspace and territorial waters of another country without prior provocation?
Who exercises in the exclusive economic zone of another country?
Who is buying Russian military equipment in violation of US law?
Which has more lawyers and journalists in jail than almost any other country and jails its main political opponent before an election?
Which seeks by force to block the rights of an EU member state to research on its continental shelf?
Which has not only joined the EU sanctions. against Russia, but has exported about $800 million worth of goods to Russia?
Continuing airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, including against US partners such as the Syrian Democratic Forces?
Where did he stop the critical enlargement of NATO?
Which continues to occupy an EU country. with 40,000 troops and in violation of UN Security Council resolutions and seeks to open an area frozen by the United Nations?
Who denies religious freedom to the religious leader of millions of citizens of the Greek Orthodox faith?
Who has turned a church into a mosque in violation of UNESCO commitments?
Where are arrests and imprisons of US personnel?
Menendez: “Well, I call this country Turkey. And the reality is that I don’t think that such a country … that it’s worth selling the F-16s to. “
Menendez is the biggest Albanian lobbyist he says that about Turkey but he supports kosovo.
Imia is part of the Dodecanese, and the territorial maps signed between Italy and Turkey show it does not belong to Turkey, since the Paris Agreement its full title was transferred to Greece, and it now belongs to Greece. If you aren't aware of this then you need to become aware, if you are deliberately not stating this then you are supporting the illegal claims of Turkey, via omission of these facts. The treaty is clear, they only have ownership of islands and rocks etc out to 3 miles from the coast of Asia Minor, period.
The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits, which happened at the request of Turkey, removed the demilitarisation requirement of the Greek island and the Bosporos for the Turks as referred to in the treaty of Lausanne. So the demilitarisation of the named Greek Islands and where the border is was settled back in the 1920s & 1930s, but the revisionists in Ankara are still pedalling lies to misinformed people around the world.
While I know it isn't your intention, by acting as "even-handed", you end up giving comfort to Turkish revisionism.
This is the problem with modern academia, they are too scared to call out the revisionist Islamofascists of Turkey, Hamas etc.
Remember Greece, Cyprus and Israel are frontline states and whenever the Middle East has been united by any empire and isn't at war with itself it ends up threatening Europe (The West). Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood want to rebuild an Islamic Caliphate, a new build a new Islamic Ottoman empire. When will people wake up in Europe, hopefully before it is too late?
The recent Hamas treatment of innocent Israeli citizens shows quite clearly what awaits the rest of us as they rise again and the West continues to decline.
Thanks Prof 👍🏻👍🏻🇦🇺
Proffesor, judging by how complex their issues are how can they be solved in a way that would make both sides content?
Thanks. Great question. The obvious answer would be to refer the continental shelf to the International Court of Justice. It does tend to be fair. The only reason not to go before the Court is because Turkey feels it has a weak case. But, again, the Court has shown that it can be reasonable. The waters and airspace issue can be managed by goodwill. In fact, extending the waters to 12 miles will have no real effect on Turkey. It really only matters in time of war. And if a war breaks out, it’s hardly going to matter. On the minorities issue, I’ve never understood why Greece just doesn’t let the communities in Thrace identify as they wish. Cyprus is obviously a rather different issue. It isn’t strictly a bilateral matter. But Turkey obviously has an important say. We need to focus on a federal settlement, as agreed. Overall, all these things can be resolved with the right political will the answers are there.
@@JamesKerLindsay Turkey wants to use the Muslim minorities in thrace as Turkic minorities. Turkey is giving support to these families for having more children and so when the minorities become majorities he can claim the area. Something like a planned Kosovo situation.
@@JamesKerLindsay Here is why Greece will not accommodate Turkish meddling Greek Thrace. The treaty of Lausanne determined the exchange of populations. All Orthodox Christians of Anatolia and Eastern Thrace were to move to Greece and all Moslems of Greece were to be moved to Turkey, the only exception were the 200,000 Greeks of Istanbul and about 100,000 Moslems of West Thrace. The only other stipulation was that the majority Greek inhabitants of Imbros and Tenedos, which were to remain under Turkey were supposed to have an autonomous status.
The treaty of Lausanne defines the minority in Greece as "Moslem" not "Turkish" . The reason for this distinction is because these were mostly local Thracian populations that converted to Islam and not Turks that were moved from Anatolia to this area. The analogy will be the Slavs that converted to Islam in Bosnia. If you ask them none will identify as Turks and actually they may be insulted if you call them Turks. The same is true for many folks in Greek Thrace. From the 100k population about 30k are Pomaks. These folks are not Turks and again would feel insulted if you call them Turks. There 15-20K Roma who are part of the Moslem population and also dont identify as Turks. I hope you understand now why the treaty makes this distinction and doesn't call the minority "Turkish". The fact that Turkey is trying to use this minority as a leverage tool has made things worse. Furthermore, the fact that in September of 1955 after a ethnic cleansing pogroms the 200K Greeks of Istanbul had to leave Turkey with only the clothes they were wearing leaving the community today with only 2,000 aging folks. Turks have a problem with minorities. Look how they treat the Kurds! Finally their agreement to give autonomy to Imbros and Tenedos never materialized so these are the reasons Greece will not budge here because tomorrow there will be another demand from the Turkish side.
@@JamesKerLindsay actually Professor it was Turkey that insisted in the Lausanne Treaty negotiations for the minority in Thrace to be recognized/identifird in terms of their religion i.e. as Muslim. Now it wants the muslim minority which consists of Pomaks (slavic speaking muslims), Roma people + those identifying themselves as ethnically Turks to be recognized as a whole as Turkic, something which is untrue.
I hope I have answered your querry.
It is simply impossible to solve the Greek-Turkish issues making both sides content. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE, similarly to the issues between Jews and Palestinians and in particular the issues between Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots which is part of the Greek-Turkish issues.
I was waiting for your video James 😁
Anyways for me it's not a big surprise, both Mitsotakis and Erdogan won the elections in their countries so they didn't needed to keep the tensions high to rally their voters
On Contrary they needed to " chill" a little bit, at least for now 😏
Let's also not forget that every time that Erdogan has issues with the " west" it's always reflected on the Greek - Turkish relations, so it's kinda natural for him to try to fix things by approaching Greece
As for your dejavu feeling it's totally justified
I mean am almost 40 and I have seen this so many times..
Don't get me wrong it's always welcome not to burn tax payers money on jet fuel but it would be even better if it was to last
Finally seen you understand Greek I think you gonna Appreciate this one
There is a lot of animosity in Greece against the German media - especially " bild" because of the way they Treated Greece during the financial crisis
So when a newspaper - I think it was bild made a title among the lines of " and now what? You are friends now?" the Greek internet responded with " ρε ότι γουστάρουμε θα κάνουμε!" 😄😄😄😄 ( I don't know how I can even translate this one in English)
Haha! thanks so much, Pavlos. That’s the Greek spirit. 😀 Sadly, like you, I’ve seen things come and go too often to be excited by it all. But as you also say, a period of goodwill and an attempt to be nice is better than tensions and dogfights. It’s good to take the peace and quiet over confrontation, even if it doesn’t last. In any case, I hope all is well at your end. Have a great weekend!
@@JamesKerLindsay thanks, always the best
the chasm between the two countries is abysmal in any angle viewed and i ll explain ( the obvious ofcourse )
i am half greek half italian but i identify more as a greek for reasons readily exainable to point out.
greek is a very secular society
cosmopolitan since the down of its existence.
greece is a pullar of our westen european mindset and by Zeus mindset is all we need to built a world such as ours
we have institutions in the west we have public discussions , checks and balances pgilosophical inquires we hold a citizenship status....
political culture is our DNA we are not theocratic
to all those thinking that greece a turkey is just a skindeep acrimony , well my suggestion is they should make an additional effort cause the dissimilarities are striking ..
we are the cycladic the minoans the sea people the Aeolian the Acheans the Dorian the Macedonians ( the byzantines ...if you wish ..) .... the malákas of the m9dern times....
we still here and we still cherish up to this day art and science and philosophical inquiries.
and who are "they" ???
and who are rhey
Two lessons come to mind from Aesop's Fables.
The Laborer and the Snake
A snake, having made his hole close to the porch of a cottage, inflicted a mortal bite on the cottager's infant son. Grieving over his loss, the father resolved to kill the Snake. The next day, when it came out of its hole for food, he took up his axe but, by swinging too hastily, missed its head and cut off only the end of its tail. After some time, the cottager, afraid that the Snake would bite him also, endeavored to make peace and placed some bread and salt in the hole. The Snake, slightly hissing, said: "There can henceforth be no peace between us, for whenever I see you, I shall remember the loss of my tail, and whenever you see me, you will be thinking of the death of your son."
The lesson: No one truly forgets injuries in the presence of him who caused the injury.
The Farmer and the Snake
One winter, a farmer found a snake stiff and frozen with cold He had compassion on it and, taking it up, placed it in his bosom. The warmth quickly revived the Snake, and resuming its natural instincts, it bit its benefactor, inflicting a mortal wound. "Oh," cried the farmer with his last breath, "I am rightly served for pitying a scoundrel."
The lesson: The greatest kindness will not bind the ungrateful.
Greece will never rest in expanding towards modern Turkey. Simple!
I am sure turkey has bigger things to worry about .and most greeks just want to live in peace right now
Thanks. I agree. It is time for Greece and Turkey to reach a settlement of outstanding disputes. The Aegean should be a Sea of Peace. And Cyprus should be settled.
As long as Turkey does not respect international law (law of the sea), and UN resolutions on Cyprus there will never be any lasting normalization between the two countries.
Turks had every right to protect their people from a genocide greeks tried to commit in Cyprus!!!
@@sassimaus2 Maybe they came to protect in the first instance. But while peace negotiation were occurring they invaded a second time which was just a land grab. This land grab by Turkey in Cyprus remains a contentious issue, violating international law and the sovereignty of the region.
Very well sayed.
It was actually so ridiculous, seen/ hearing the Turkey's president only few months ago, addressing the UN security council, like demanding from them to finally except those occupied areas of Cyprus, as a separate recognise Turkish state
WITHOUT
Not even a single member from there, to even try to put that man in the right order, reminds him of all of the values and principles of the UN
Not just that.Turkey also recognizes Kosovo as independent.
If they recognize separatist movements as legal, why don't they recognize Kurdistan?
Because they are hypocrites.
@sassimaus2
Genocide by the Greek Cypriots ..!
Wow!
You should have known, till on our days ,that our compatriots Turkish Cypriots, they actually took the arms against their own country, following instructions from Turkey.
They took the gans , ..!
Tell me , Brow.
Even today , how does the Turkey's state, deals with the Kurdish of PKK ?
Does it give them chocolates ?
I believe that as long as part of Cyprus is occupied by the Turks and as long the casus beli from the Turkish site against Greece exist, as well es the new story regarding „the blue homeland“😳😳, there will be no change between Greece and Turkey‘s relationship
IDK if its true but i heard a speculation that second EOKA 7:50 did happend because of unification but rather close relationship of Cyprus to Lebenon which can lead to rise of communism in Cyprus then ties with Soviet.
Wow.
Very .." sophisticate "..!
To listen my history from you is nice feeling :) actually all of them are true what you say. Summary and clear presentation. Thanks
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was lightly longer than my usual video, but there was a lot of history to cover. To be honest, I’m actually really critical of the misuse of history in this case. But I thought it important to provide it to explain why it is so sensitive for many Greeks and Turks. It is not just about legal issues, it is about identity.
@@JamesKerLindsay Natural disasters are suitable reminders that there is more to identity than history.
Great video and great explanation as always! This would be huge, however I don't know how long it will last due to Cyprus. Do you think that disputes like that can be solved with diplomacy? Are there any territorial disputes in recent history that were solved by diplomacy?
Thanks so much Nikola. I hope all is well at your end.
Yes, territorial disputes can and are solved by diplomacy. But seemingly increasingly less so. We live in worrying times. In terms of Greece and Turkey, it is complicated by the fact that Cyprus directly affects their relationship, but isn’t strictly a bilateral issue. While Turkey has a direct say on the issue in real terms, Greece doesn’t. Athens can only support what Nicosia does. But on the bilateral issues there is certainly a lot that can be done. It should start with referring the continental shelf to the ICJ. Turkey is afraid it will lose and so avoids it. But the Court is not unreasonable. On territorial waters and airspace, there are compromises that can be reached with the right political will. In real terms a 12nm extension will not have much effect on Turkey. It doesn’t shape shipping or transit rights for Turkish civilian or military vessels. And other issues can be resolved with goodwill. Like so many disputes, it is relatively simple to lay out a path to managing things if the genuine commitment to do so was there.
@@JamesKerLindsayI am not sure what you think is really the case:
""The difficulty arises from the fact that, under the Convention, ‘ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy right of innocent passage’ in the territorial waters of another state. This right involves restrictions for military vessels and submarines (which are required to navigate on the surface) and could be regulated by the coastal state. If the Greek territorial waters were extended to 12 n miles in the Aegean Sea, Turkish warships coming from the Bosporus or from Izmir would be subject to the limitations of the ‘right of innocent passage’ or even to regulations adopted by Athens to link the central Mediterranean Sea."
Another flaw in this thinking is that whether the court is reasonable or not matters. There are countries which limited their territorial waters to make it reasonable (Japan, Estonia & Finland). Correct me if I am wrong but the court can not force any country to be reasonable. I believe if Turkey is convinced that Greece will be reasonable, then Turkey would consider to solve this in court.
Hence solution of this problem is not blocked by Turkey as you implied but has to be worked by both parties. I am saying this because (right or wrong) position of Greece historically has been maximalism within the scope of international law.
Rhetoric is that international law is well defined and absolute. It actually is not. Otherwise there would be no disputes. As you said in many cases it would require genuine commitment to solve the issues.
Of course, this situation will not be permanent, the agreements signed with Greece are generally related to trivial issues such as nature protection, tourism and trade, There is no signed agreement with islands whose demilitarization and deployment of weapons are prohibited according to the Lausanne (1923) and Paris (1947) agreements, airspace, territorial waters, continental shelves on important issues regarding the islands, whose and owners are unknown, and which may even lead to a war in the future.
You should read the Lausanne Treaty (not only selective clauses) carefully and things that you mention will be much clearer i.e. ownership of islands, who has violated the Treaty concerning minorities etc. It is as simple as that.
"Agreed to a non-binding plan." Sounds weak to me. And what about recent Turkish government maps showing some Greek land as Turkish?
So trust Erdogan? Let me think for a moment.
No.
With a dictator like Erdogan i dont think anything will happen.
Erdogan just won a fair and democratic election, you people just can't stop lying can you, is it a religious duty or something.
Troll 😂😂
@@djelalhassan7631 Bruh, Erdogan literally changed the system of government to consolidate full executive power into his office of the presidency during a national state of emergency. That cannot even be called democratic backsliding, that is democratic dismantlement.
As long as one of the two countries is projecting its high aspirations based only on the maximisation of its power, its population size and it's conquering desire can never become peace between the two countries.
I thouth the maritime issues were supposed 2 be solved in international court?! What happened with that?
The continental shelf issue should be. Greece has proposed this. On the territorial waters, Greece doesn’t accept that there is anything to discuss. However, in the case of Castellorizo, many would argue that Turkey does have a legitimate case for discussion.
@@JamesKerLindsayWhy does Britain retain as an overseas possession a cluster of volcanic islands at the edge of the Atlantic? Why does France stubbornly keep under its possession the coral atoll of Clipperton in the Pacific Ocean, near the coast of Mexico? Because of the extensive Exclusive Economic Zone they offer and the exploitation of underwater mineral wealth. So especially Great Britain has no right to say that there is a problem with Kastellorizo because of it's size and geographical position. The international law of the sea is clear, which Turkey applies in the Black Sea and denies in the Aegean Sea.
@@Jannis777on point, especially the last part. Blatant hypocrisy.
I never trust politicians. I have Greek friends and they are wonderful people. I’m not supporting Erdoğan nor any other politician from Türkiye. Erdoğan should have been removed from office for his actions but most Turks voted for him.
Take this from a Greek: this is not a fresh start, it's just the beggining of another loop. After the February 2023 devastating deadly earthquake along with the very bad financial managment which crippled the economy long before the earthquake came to give it the final shot, Turkey is in a trully, very bad shape. In this situation there's no room for conflicts with those who you need to fund your economy, and of course Im not referring to directly Greece, but to those who allied with Greece when Turkey was threaten it with war day in, day out.
The Greco-Turkish relations, as all relations between neighbouring countries, are being determined by a huge number of things. In the case of Greece and Turkey there're more bad things to determine their relations than good ones. For instance: while in Greece the loss of the old homelands in the early 20th c. (namely Asia Minor which was inhabited by Greeks for 5,000 straight years) is an almost forgotten and largely historically and politically accepted issue (regardless the genocides and pogroms of the Pontic and the Asia Minor Greeks that led to not a single Greek inhabiting on the shores of Asia Minor and Constantinople, despite the international Treaties Turkey itself signed), in Turkey Neo-Ottomanism is currently and for many years the most popular ideology. Neo-Ottomanism among other things attempts to restore Turkish rule over the lands once held by the Ottoman Empire (Turkey currently invaded and occupies lands of Syria, Iraq and Cyprus). Where this is cannot be directly implemented, Turkey attempts to implement *the Finlandization model.* This drove the current Turkish government to adopt the *"Blue Homeland" (Mavi Vatan) doctrine,* according to which half of the Aegean Sea with its islands are Turkish sovereignty. Since this is not currently possible to achieve, they attempt to present that international Treaties supposedly determine that the Aegean Islands are a *demilitarized zone.* Note that no Treaty currently signed by Greece determines such thing, and the only one which indeed had this provision, have been *revised by a new* treaty. The 1923 Lausanne Treaty on this issue has been *revised* by the 1936 Treaty of Montreux - this is crystal clear to all but Turkey, and though there's *zero* room for different interpetations of such flawless Treaties.
Turkey is not accepting the Treaty of Montreux on this issue (i.e. it de facto rejects only part of it!!! - please bare with me) and attempts to present itself being under attack, by accepting *only* on this issue the Lausanne Treaty, a Treaty which determines Turkey's borders this country officially wants to
*drop* as (officially) suggested by the Turkish President himself, along with all officials and *all* the opposition parties. Tukrey's President even first suggested this on his official visit to Greece in 2017 and while being inside the Greek Presidential Residence, with the Greek President right next to him. So...
On this doctrine Greece loses sovereignty over a vast number of Aegean Islands, for not implementing the Lausanne Treaty (only the demilitarization part which I repeat it has been revised by the Treaty of Montreux), completely ignoring Montreux, that is *curiously* ignoring the Treaty which gave/gives control of the Dardanelles straits to Turkey to this day.
*We're talking total mess!!*
This a small glimpse of what Neo-Ottomanism is.
Who can rationally deal with this "SULTANic" view of the foreign relations?
All these has not yet been dropped by Turkey, nor does anyone expects them to be dropped.
*Need also to mention* the casus belli Turkey holds against Greece, should the latter implement the UN law of the seas (UNCLOS) - Turkey being the only country globally not accepting UNCLOS, and this only in the case of Greece?
Note that Turkey though never signed UNCLOS, it implements it in the Black Sea, but rejects it in the Aegean.
..Amd I didnt even mentioned Cyprus.
*Who can expect something good with these and more like these (e.g. Cyprus) under the carpet?*
There are 2 approaches for eez: 1 is that islands can create eez and other depends on which is highly accepted by the most of the world that mainland creates EEZ. Blue Homeland Doctrine depends on the 2 approach. We don't accept that islands can create that much zone when there next to the mainland. For instance in the Sevilla Map(Which is your approach), Meis Island creates eez against Turkish mainland. Meis Island is 2.1 km far away than Turkish mainland, however on the other side Meis Island is 580 km far away than Greece mainland and you guys defending that Island creates EEZ against Turkish mainland in that map. This is unlogic, unrealistic and dreamfull map. This unright map is your weapon because we can go to the international courts since we aren't member of them because of Armenian genocide(?) conflict. Greece exactly knows the issue between us and international courts thus you guys are so relax to say everything. However, if we could've been a member of them, this conflict would be ended with our approachment's way because they had many same or similar conflicts before Turk-Greek conflict and if you check court's decision, they always gave their decisions with the approachment of Turkiye. So technically you should pray to god that we aren't the member of that court. However, in international conflicts with those kind of situations, power would become the first way to solve the problem. So we will see. Our Blue Homeland Doctrine is going to be accepted either with power or power...
@@furkanbilgic4011 There're no two ways. There's only one international law for EEZs and that's the United Nations Cinvention on the Law of the Seas (UNCLOS). According to this law, neighbouring countries need to *agree on the limits of the EEZS* and no country can unilaterally declare a EEZ. So, this law imposes cooperation. Blue Homeland doctrine is a Turkish invansion, it's a childish crap theory that none would accept, it has been invented by a total i... and it will eventually remain in paper. You will see... The last three years proved beyond any doubt that it is not in Turkey's interest to impose anything to Greece, ie anything invented in Turkey and it is not being determined by International Law. Turkey's isolation the last years should alert you on these. Greece is an EU and NATO member. You cant just like that threat with war such a country, not one that is armed like a scorpion as well.
PS: you Turks keep talking about the map of Seville *being unware (and this should REALLY worry you)* that this map presents POTENTIAL EEZS, where these has not been agreed. This means that in the case of Greece the EEZ shown on this map it is not the one Greece and Turkey are going to agree.
Im amazed that you speak of things you know nothing about. This should really worry you...
Congratulation! No point fighting!
Thank you professor for this very educational video.
Don't you think that the generation that is rising to power in both these countries is capable of "not negotiating in bad faith" or is the hatred way too deep? Is the solution that far fetched?
The hatred is limited to politics and history. The citizens of the respective countries love each other.
@@tetefather I have spoken to people from both countries, even from the military, and I agree with you. There is a bit of friendly competition like on origins of words or food recipes. However, the peoples don't hate each other. I honestly believe that there is hope for peace.
I don't think is a matter of hate, or so.
Is the feeling of power ,that Turkey is surrounded.
Great historical summary, although largely not directly relevant to the matters at hand except perhaps Treaties from the twentieth century. If you add to this the Law of the Sea and International Law you will better understand Greece's position than talking about the Byzantine Empire. Greece talks about bilateral negotiations only if they are in harmony with these. Turkey's position on this is rather weaker and just emphasizes bilateral negotiations. It relies more on its perceived strength - or at least hoping that this is the case. If one just emphasizes bilateral negotiations like you did at the end of your video you inadvertently tilt to Tukey's position.
Thanks. I completely agree. I have in fact always made this case. (I’ve worked on Greek-Turkish relations and Cyprus for over 30 years.) The current issues are about international law and politics, not history directly. A point I make in the video. But as I also state, the relationship is fundamentally affected by perceptions of the past. And as very few outsiders know that history - indeed I’m not sure Greeks and Turks really do either, at least from a balanced perspective showing both sides - I saw this as a good opportunity to summarise it.
Your take on the period around the first world war seemed to downplay the bitterness created by the population swap. (And omitted the Armenian massacre that caught other Christian communities in Anatolia) As happened in post colonial India/Pakistan, the violence of how they are achieved in practice and the sense of personal loss of displaced populations is very much a driver for nation level poor relations.
There was no so called Armenian Genocide.
Funny thing you never mentioned the Muslim massacre first that led to the deportation of Armenians. Hey if it's done by Christians, that is just fine.
Funnily enough India and pakistan had gotten over all the violence during partition and had an open border and free trade right up until 1960s.
The problems really started in 1963 when the americans convinced pakistan to be their pawn in the region. In next 6 years, they fought 2 wars with India, comitted a genocide and lost half their country. That is where the bitterness really crystallized.
Peace❤❤
I don't think we are gonna see any progress
Unfortunately, I would tend to agree. But this is certainly better than tensions and conflict. But at some point there will have to be some movement on the underlying issues.
Don't give up so easily, Hope is the essence of life.
@@djelalhassan7631 I agree that hope is essential for our lives and of course dialogue is always important for the international politics. However, studying history and International Relations sometimes can be tough.Humankind has made so much progress but at the end of the day it seems we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. I just wonder (philosophically) what is the point of all this evolution when we cannot escape war and its traumas. We live in a chaotic era.
@@user-ke9ih6si7d All that you said is true including there's lot of tecnological and cultural progress has been made between the people of the world, but it not enough, and it is also true that there're some elements in the world that don't want peace and harmony because there's no profit and control in that, but money, politics, religion and war is a lucrative racket, if we can get rid of them we will have peace and love in the world. All we have to do in our next evolutionary step is to become Peacemakers and all the problems of the world will be solved, and this starts with you, be the change that you want to see in the world.
The name Erdogan, and the word agreement, should never be in the same sentence.
Good analysis. The impact and influence of the middle east geopolitical interests of western powers ie UK, USA and USSR/Russia greatly affect this relationship. It is also true that Turkey has illusions of reviving the ottoman empire with conflicts with several countries ie Syria, Irak, Libya in the area and its leading role of the turkic states. The aglo american political elites consider Turkey’s geography and importance indispensable to their interests. Hence, the weak response to Turkey’s troublesome behavior. Turkey has a long strategic aim of fully occupying Cyprus as it never truly accepted the Lausanne treaty!
Are there any examples of neighboring countries with overlapping territorial waters jointly developing platforms, and sharing costs and profits? It seems like a project like that would cultivate ongoing positive cooperation. Maybe that’s too naive for geopolitics.
''Peace at home peace in the world'' Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. For many years our Greek Komşu and we hated each other we alienized each other for so long.But with development of social media and globalization of the world we all learned how smilar we are.Only difference is just our religion.I hope we can find a way to make peace with each other.
Do you ,even believe of what you are saying..?
How strongly you people, follows those ..Kemals words ?
@@andrigeogiou8420 You probably live in America so you are not Greek or Turk.People like you enjoy rich lifes offshores and act like they care about their original country.Same also applies to Turks in Berlin etc...I know ıts easy to act hypernationalistic over there so you can get favorism of opposing people.But in reality neither Turkish or Greek people want to see each other die.Yes it is my own opinion and most people also think the same way.Stop provoking a peacefull comment. conversation.
one of the more respectable takes most of them are like animals driven by emotion eating the propaganda and being useful idiots
Until Kurdistan has gained its independence the world will continue to have a Turkish problem.
How many diplomats are needed to replace one rescue dog?
Cover the issue of ogaden conflict pls
Thanks. One on the list!
One of the more significant blunders of the Cold War era was admitting Turkey into NATO. Fortunately it appears that Turkish aspirations for EU membership are completely out of the question for the foreseeable future.
Turkey and Greece were admitted at the same time. At the time they were the only 2 countries in eastern Europe that are part of Nato (look at cold war map). Turkey was a strategic hub for US nuclear missiles as the closest nation to deliver Nukes from. That is all to say - yours is a stupid take
@@eightyfiv32George F. Kennan, author of Containment Doctrine, Opposed admitting Turkey into NATO.
@@jaymudd2817Source?
Reminds me when i was doing business with Turkish corporations, their word meant nothing unfortunately😕.
Great analysis.
Well it seems now Turkey will try to get along with the West, by making friendlier relations with its neighbours such as Greece and accepting Sweden into Nato in exhange to get an upgrade on its airforce of f16s.
Everything in in Turkeys foreign policy its for it to become the dominant player in the middle east and Eastern med.
Lets hope that this change of policy of friendlier relations with its neighbours also solve the cyprus problem even though i am pessimistic on this.