The Expanse's Worst (But Loveable) Battleship
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- Today we present the next episode in our series covering the ships of The Expanse. We're taking a look at the Agatha King, the flagship of the United Nations Navy's Jupiter Fleet.
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As a system's engineer, I suspect you overlooked all the gorgeous benefits of the Agatha King. As a ship built in a bureaucracy, You can just see the graft, congressional budgets, feature creep, design compromises, shady subcontracting, GRAFT, and payouts lovingly built into her design.
No Martian design could ever function as well with all those procurement constraints.
😂👌👌
I'm guessing the Agatha King's control systems were coded in COBOL.
@@jfrankcarr or Java
@Craig DeMaris I remember being very bored on watch one night and looking over my .45. It was made by Singer. Apparently back during WW2 the sewing machine company made .45 automatics and some lasted in the Navy until the '80's.
You forgot compliance with norms for the space military equipment.
There are huge advantages of buttons over touch screens..... buttons still function when the screen is broken or offline.
And still used even if you can't see for some reason (such as an injury, or an open tin of paint hit you in the face, or if the paint was spilled over the buttons, no I have no idea who is painting ), if you're familiar enough with them.
They are also easier to fix when broken.
well if every touch screen on your ship can control every function of the ship, you would never run out of functioning touch screens
aaand you actually hit that you want under G
Tell that to SpaceX
Don't underestimate console interface.
There is a reason why software developers and drafters (good ones) prefer console interface: you can transmit information faster and more precise via keyboard than via touchscreen.
Controlling something by waving hands looks cool and all, but that makes your hands tired very quickly. Also in combat situation when your ship can be shacked violently at any moment hand waving control can become deadly dangerous. Even touch screen isn't good enough because sudden acceleration/deceleration will throw operator hand (or your entire body) on the console thus making operator giving some random command to the ship.
Mars went for cool looking gadgets. Earth build stuff that can get the job done at minimal cost. There is a good reason why Mars was loosing that war.
Yeah earth was more quantity over quality when came to military and their soldiers too could beat martian ones in close combat as most in fot all the marines where earth born and trained there (of course skill still maters so its not all brute strenght) as again it was quantity over quality.
Also, from a human factor's perspective, knobs, buttons and joysticks are just better for people during a crisis. NASA and Space X had some royal fights about the dragon's interface.
Was about to make this same comment. Buttons just work. It’s simple but it works. Touchscreens are great for getting to advanced menus but I don’t want to have to switch to a specific screen or menu to find the right interface when one constant button does the job.
Jonathan Schmidt it’s funny you mention that, because the biggest complaint that Tesla owners have now is stupid touch screen options that replaced simple switches and latches. For example, you have to use the touch screen to open the glove box.
The problem with gesture control and even touch screen is not just random acceleration. The proper timing of the required function is far better with keyboard and even mouse or trackball with klicking switches. Imagine to play against PC gamers with XBOX Kinect. (I am not a serious gamer, just tried and frustrated of the handling inaccuracy.)
Generation Films: "The Expanse's Worst (But Loveable) Battleship is the Truman Class"
Leonidas Class: Am I a joke to you?
Leonidas is so bad, it can't even get #1 in the worst battleship competition.
@@clairethampongphan4361 When I first saw her, I just did the crusty impression "what the hell was that?" It is so ugly i couldn't believe it is a legit warship and not a retrofitted merchant ship. which is fine, It kind of makes sence, but I was happy they just obliterated it instantly, it probably wanted to die anyway.
Behemoth: At least you can actually *_FIRE YOUR FALOATING RAILGUNS_* without shitting yourself in front of the innas!
Battlestar Galactica: 50 YEARS OLD AND AGING LIKE FINE WINE.
Agatha King: MADE BY THE UN nuff said.
@@petrpodskalsky1785 if it looks ugly but can still fight, it aint ugly. but leonidas is just so bad. afaik it can't even fire its railguns under thrust
One of the things I love about The Expanse is the attention to detail. Those pipes and cables are exactly the sort of thing you would see on an older wet Navy warship. It was actually kind of sparse compared to the submarines I served on in the '90s.
Military tech can often look outdated because the designers my choose systems that are more rugged. Isn't better to have something that can handle a thrashing than something that is aesthetically pleasing?
yeah and older designs are often easier to repair, and older software is simpler to use in general. If the military used windows 10 as the main operating system on their warships aircraft etc it would have a more complicated UI and pesky and buggy windows updates that can at times brick a computer or leave you waiting for a few hours, something that may mean life or death when an enemy warship launched a missile at you and you can't launch any countermeasures because windows is updating or something broke after an update, sometimes older stuff that is tried and tested is often better than newer stuff.
Not to mention marginal improvements in efficacy are usually not worth futzing up long supply lines until upgrading offers a substantial improvement.
Having 5000 spare type V 1.0 doodads that are now useless is kind of dumb when the type V 2.0 doodad only offers a 3% improvement in performance and you now need to buy and distribute 5000 spare V 2.0 doodads.
Exposed pipes and wire in warships are to make them more easily accessed for repair as well. Another form of hardening.
Probably the keyboard were not only there for budget cuts but also because they are easyer to fix, than a holographic projector.
I feel like the keyboards will stay on spaceships for a long time. Even the hypermodern crew dragon kept some buttons for redundancy, despite them being totally unneeded if everything goes right.
@@petrpodskalsky1785 redundancy is key. If you're screen breaks, and you don't have a backup you're screwed
Redundancy is nice to have in a civilian setting. In a military setting however, it's pretty much required, because battle damage happens. That's why in so many sci-fi books/shows/etc capital spaceships tend to have things like a backup bridge, and on top of that main engineering can often take command of the ship in a pinch, if the actual command bridges have taken damage. A high tech glass holographic display looks sick, and makes it easy to see info in a 3D setting, but when you realize it's on a ship that, by design, IS GOING TO BE SHOT AT, you maybe want a sturdy steel console instead, you know?
I feel like a keyboard would be better just because you can't accidently wave your hand and destroy something on accident
@@alphega1983 I feel like this is a massive argument for not relying on touch screens in combat. Individual buttons and switches are much harder to disable enmase than a touch screen. If you break part of an I-Phone, the whole thing is useless. Yet you could do a fair amount of damage to an old flip-phone, but still be able to make calls on it (in fact some people have).
Touch screens are flashy and cool, but they're also more touchy. And I'd argue it's easier to tell the status of many things with a physical switch than a colored button.
Generation Films: "The UNN Agatha King. The Expanse's Worst (But Loveable) Battleship."
UNN Leonidas Class: *Laughs in flying brick*
OPAS Behemoth: *_Laughs so hard that the entire power grid crashes._*
Hey though, at least the OPAS behemoth has a artifical gravity drum, so it still has AG even without acceleration
The Behemoth is completely forced to rely on its PDCs to not die, if another ship can get in rail gun range, all those long mosaic hallways will become quite the problem
@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 tbf, it was never designed to be a war ship.
Ever been aboard an actual warship? Combat center is kept dark with minimal red lights for moving around so that the various screens and battleboards are easily visible without eye fatigue. Pipes and wiring throughout are exposed for easy access to repair battle damage. To the extent possible all controls are either mechanical or simple electrical rather than electronics which can glitch, crash, and fry. Touch screens and holos are great for display but no naval architect would rely on them to control a warship in combat.
We see the disadvantage of MCR ships more clean design when a bit of Portomolcue was able to hid in the ship due to being hidden behind panels that give it a sleek look. NO Un ship would have had the issue as the contamination would have been been visible for all to see.
As a sailor for 14 years, Here is my look at it.
PROS
- They used a plot table in the center ( Most CiC's have this in the center). So the ships Captain is a "the center of communication" throughout the ship.
- Having multi-use consoles would be way more effective for a combat ship such as this. As it seems the consoles on the outside of the command ring are used for general purpose use.
- Using the upper floor for the single use or non-general purpose consoles.
- Then we have all the nobs, toggles, buttons, and dials. Yes the physical buttons are most likely going to stick around for a while. Even on modern war ships bridges and CiC's we still have them even though we have touch screen. A war ship will need to have back up's and redundant systems.
CONS
- Having the plot table with no combat chairs on a combat ship is simply poor design.
- Not having skin suits (read Honor series) while in battle is stupid as they even say hull breaches are normal in battle.
- They have the tech for self sealing compartments but leave the ship pressurized while in a fight?
Just a little food for thought.
The ‘Honor’ series, what is it? I’ve looked it up but a lot of results popped up. Care to narrow it down?
yes. the absence of any kind of individual skinsuits for the crew in the bigger capital ships in the expanse really bothers me. after seeing how railguns can easily poke holes in your ship, pressurized suits make so much sense when entering a combat area: not when your ship has been shot to shit.
@@tn_bluetick231 its a scifi novel series by david webber. try the first book: "On Basilisk Station"
My guess is they don't depressurise ships the size of the King and the Donnager because it's prohibitively wasteful to vent that much atmosphere and thrust from breaches won't knock ships their size and mass off course.
@@tn_bluetick231 +The main character's name is Honor Harrington. The author's name is David Webber. Honor is a bit
of a mary sue, but OH GOD can this guy write a space battle! Read the first three books in the series and you'll probably
be hooked. The basic idea of the series is the Napoleonic wars in space.(think Master and Commander in space with
missiles and lasers. Webber is a historian by training).
"Agatha, don't listen to them. They'll learn to love you."
Say what you want about the Agatha King. But under its guidance (under Admiral Souther), the UN fleet were beating the Martian fleet and have a positive K/D ratio so far as the number of ships were concerned.
Earth was behind Mars technologically, but not by an insurmountable amount. Earth's larger fleet and relatively shorter build times gave it an operational flexibility that Mars had a very hard time dealing with and in some cases could not even match.
Also, experience is not a Mars sole provenance, the Earthers, faced with a technologically superior opponent had to quickly adapt to this and by necessity become more inventive in their tactics and strategies. In the short term, Mars had an undeniable advantage, but over the long term the more experienced accrued by Earth, combined with a larger fleet gave them an edge Mars couldn't handle.
By the latest stages of the war, Mars was forced to concentrate its forces near Mars, in order to maintain tactical and strategic superiority in naval engagements, but this gave Earth the initiative and effectively cut off Mars from any and all off-world resources and capabilities. Earth couldn't crack the Martian Navy, but it didn't need to, it simply had to survive long enough to get a large enough force to overwhelm Mars, and with the resources of most of the Solar system at their disposal their victory was a matter of time.
To quote tex from blackpantslegion “war is not often kind to the side that builds fewer weapons”, in world war 2 the Germans built aprox 1300 tiger 1 tanks the Americans built 30,000 m4 Sherman’s a comparabley worse tank all things considered but they got the job done. It’s not always about quality, in war it’s often about quantity
I mean you say that yet the marshins managed to wital down the unn numbers advantage from 5 to 1 to 3 to 1 nomader how that happened that took a 7 to 1 kill ratio by the marshons inorder to pull off and based on the fight we actually saw, the king would have lost that fight to the mars cruser sense it could gust keep it out of her range if they wanted to.
@@c.j.3404 the Martians high KTD is likely due to the fact that the fighting had just started and the fleets of mars and the UN were deployed for policing not pitched warfare, this means that where the Martians were and the UN were they would have close to parity in force projection but not necessarily fleet strength. as such the UN would have to carefully reposition to take advantage of theyre numbers, the martians would not and as weve seen it takes a long time to get form one side of the system to the other.
@@Keemperor40K that's called a war of attrition. The faction that has better production capabilities are almost guaranteed to win.
Big, empty medbay with large floorspace could be for wheeling extra gurneys in and out during mass casualty and triage situations. Rather than lots of fixed beds, you see similar layouts in real world ships, particularly Amphibious Assault Ships or Carriers.
I mean the Agatha King won’t split in two when a rail gun is fired like some other ships in The Expanse.
The creators of 'The Expanse' work hard to make the UN ships look older, for the Agatha King they aimed for the look of 1960's Apollo tech.
looks more like something you would find on a modern day USN ship as older sometimes tends to be more reliable and repairable than newer stuff.
Honestly I think the better touches are the deliberate paint wear they put on the King's interior fittings. It really has that 'government property handed down through generations of operators' feel. Mad props to the set team.
The Agatha king seems like it had a lot of design flaws even when it was new: WELCOME TO THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
At least the complex will push out new thing to replace the old by force this is just sad
"Worst?" Admiral Souther eliminated a substantial part of the "much better" MCRN fleet flying this thing. Even Martian captain herself admitted it.
I mean you say that yet the marshins managed to wital down the unn numbers advantage from 5 to 1 to 3 to 1 nomader how that happened that took a 7 to 1 kill ratio by the marshons inorder to pull off and based on the fight we actually saw, the king would have lost that fight to the mars cruser sense it could gust keep it out of her range if they wanted to.
@@c.j.3404 the Mcrn suffer from the fact that they can’t release Thorpe as fast a un ships as they prefer to have less firing bays witch is good for bursts of a few torpedoes but not really great when dealing with a dreadnought
@RubiiX dosnt mader the curser can gust keep dodging out of range untill a torpedo gets through, no defense is perfect and the king definitely was not high end.
@@reentrysfs6317 dosnt mader the curser can gust keep dodging out of range untill a torpedo gets through, no defense is perfect and the king definitely was not high end.
Which episode did the Martian captain say this?
And yet, soon much-touted Mars will be in the exact same boat as Earth, forced to use ships of a past golden era in an attempt to keep hold of dwindling power. Laconia comes...
How are the alien shipyards doin' ? Just asking...
This is flawed for a multitude of reasons a few of which I will highlight
1. Do not underestimate the importance of more analogue controls on a ship, for starters the controls themselves in the event of a problem would be much easier to repair and would also take less time to repair, This is highlighted by the fact that despite the electrical faults in the ship it, without issue, was capable of preforming its functions and those issues were quickly addressed.
2. The Agatha king was a flagship of the Jupiter fleet one of the most important ships in the system which leads me to believe it actually made use of the upgrades in the weapons package for the Truman class, meaning it had less PDCs than the donnager granted but actually possessed MORE torpedo launchers than the mighty donnager.
3. It is mentioned by admiral Nguyễn that they would be able to take the mcrn hamurabi a scirocco class assault cruiser. Despite the longer range of their weapons and there is quite a good reason for that, the Truman class is known for its effective and strategic placement of PDC cannons and the incredibly high quality of those cannons which means it could take the incoming torpedos before it got in range than bring its mighty dual farren pattern heavy rail guns to bare which could destroy any ship in the system (with the possible exception of the behemoth) with a single shot, not to mention unleashing its massive arsenal of 15 auto loading torpedo bays, more once again than even the donnager classes 14 rear and aft torpedo tubes.
4. The Truman class in general possessed another trait the donnager did not, the Truman class works very effectively as a troop transport more so than the donnager space dock mentions this in his video. It is also my firm belief despite not having evidence to back this up, that the Truman class is sturdier and has thicker armor than the donnager, for one it’s wider and stouter and reliability and sturdiness likely implies it’s defensive capabilities.
5. The Martian technology looking cooler doesn’t make it better the systems on the ship are (while dated) clearly very intuitive and having a dedicated weapons station with analogue controls and a trigger is not something to be taken for granted, also the point of weapons and such being fired from the command console isn’t true, we consistently see on even the roci that Alex fires the rail gun from above at his piloting station and Naomi with the torpedo at hers. Not to mention it’s unsurprising he would have to type in the command to fire the proto molecule torpedos the admiral had JUST gotten the proto molecule torpedos in his hands it’s very likely he had to provide forms of authentication. Hell we see certain systems on the bridge when Holden and Naomi are there still functioning after the ship had gone to hell.
In conclusion, for all of these reasons I do genuinely believe an upgraded Truman class such as the Agatha or the Thomas prince could defeat the donnager, while the donnager has the super heavy rail guns it gets to a point of diminishing returns one shot from either ships rail guns would destroy the other also I believe souther is a significantly better commander than Theresa Yao, he’s more cautious thinks ahead better and has a closer relationship with his crew and clearly they function better together. While one shot from a rail gun from either ship would destroy the other when it comes to torpedos? I think the Agatha could likely survive quite a few more hits compared to the donnager. Thanks for listening to my Ted talk.
*Hard science* [ok except the proto molecule] makes the most interesting sci fi background, since there is no _deuce ex machina shenanigans_ that can be pulled at the last minute as a cheap victory.
See also Battlestar Galactica…
I have major issues with Rocenante vs UNN Escort ship
Tbf the protomolecule is so vastly more advanced than anything we can comprehend that it can get a pass
The Expanse does have mostly hard science in it's space flight mechanics, but there's still a good deal of space-magic if you look closely. The ludicrous fuel efficiency of their drives can't be explained, and they also have crazy advanced medicines that just work because the future. None of this is bad, and you have to give the author a lot of credit for creating such a realistic world that he can slip these hand-wavy things in and most people never even think to question them. Love the show and it's actually inspiring me to pick the book series back up.
@@orestmarkheva7325 That's beacuse the fight wasn't in the books
Landon Morrison I agree, although I think the major difference is that, in general, the space-magic isn’t really the core of the show, and stories, and instead of being used to move the story forward, are done to allow the story to continue. Subtle but important difference, for example the Rocci’s med bay works miracles, but it’s really only used to keep the main characters alive and functional, as when you have a crew of four, you can’t really have one of two of them in bed in sickbay for extended periods.
Fuel for the ships is another one, and while it is mentioned once or twice, in general it seems to be a non-issue, but I can forgive this as the ships almost always seem to visit one station or another fairly regularly, so it’s reasonable to assume they top off their tanks each time they dock. Sure they could include mention fuel more often, but it’s a question of balance, as if the show was bloated with all the realistic technical and logistics it would not be nearly as streamlines and interesting, and likely wouldn’t be as popular successful as it has become.
I like how the ships in the series are a combination of logical concepts of oceanic ship, submarine, aircraft: planes and helicopters, and of course rockets. Including detection and combat tactics.
This ship exemplifies an old and inefficient war vehicle, something we also have in military vehicles today as well.
As a former petty officer in the USN, I can say I appreciate the little touches the show adds that reminds me of when I served on my ship. Well played Expanse producers. Well played.
This is more like a CIC. A bridge and a CIC are two different things.
In The Expanse, they probably merged the two, or rather, the CIC became the norm and the name "bridge" just stuck around. You don't want a physical bridge on a space warship.
I didnt think he's ever seen the bridge of a real military ship.. Maybe he should have had a look at an aircraft carrier's bridge and CIC with its glass window / map screen. This is the same thing. The battleship is the flagship centre of the fleet, so its circle design is very efficient with commander in the centre looking at tactical map / link for directing overall fleet strategy and tactics, while being able to see / speak to the people / stations that matter for the ship itself. I fail to see how the ship is as crappy as he says it is.
@@fredsas12 I think that's the point though. That bridge is VERY reminiscent of our own carrier's and battleship's bridges. Which at the time of The Expanse would be over 3 centuries old. So one would think design philosophy or technical limitations would have been updated by then. Which it has if you look at the Martian bridges vs the UN. I look at it this way: if some random shmuck was stuck alone on the bridge of the Agatha King or the Hammurabi, I think it would be a lot easier to figure out how to work the latter and also a lot harder to break everything.
I have to wonder if it's better to have them combined deep in the hull like in Honor Harrington once you get into space. Correct me if I'm wrong, but part of the reason for the separation is the bridge needs visual contacts and ques that require being placed outside the ship. As technology advances, this may no longer be required, and thus you can sink the command structure behind the thick armor plating. That and losing a window on the ocean isn't as big a problem as it is in space. At that point, might as well have the bridge and CIC be all one room, with a secondary CIC operational should the first somehow get hit.
Now for fleet command, then you need a separate room. One commands the ship, the other commands the fleet at large. The only thing that may see a bridge remain along the hull is the idea of the helmsman still being placed on the surface so he can pilot the ship visually if need be. A bit risky, but there are pros and cons to doing this that we deal with today. A modern destroyer could easily have cameras on the deck that would allow the helm and command crew to be below deck. Yet last I knew, newly built ships still have their bridge above deck.
Mind you, I have zero military experience, so there could well be several nuances that completely negate all of this.
@@forestwells5820 The CIC and the bridge have probably been combined, this is a spaceship not some relatively expansive luxuriously appointed naval ship. Every cubic meter of livable space you add on beyond the bare minimum would involve herculean efforts in its design, production and maintenance over the course of its life. For example those hallways you see Admiral Nguyen storming down? They are essentially a complete waste of mass, just look at the space station, you live where you work and everything else pressurized is storage for consumables. Those massive fuel tanks aircraft carriers have for aviation fuel? Imagine if the ship had to cart around many times that in potable water because the ship is literally expected to operate for years independently. Suggesting something as frivolous as a flag bridge or a separate CIC would probably get the designer slapped when you can just find a way to cram in a few more stations into the pre-existing command center.
Also you have to ask yourself is there any point to investing in redundancy, you are going to place your command center in the single hardest to hurt part of the ship because the ship is useless without those people alive. Therefore if they are rendered unable to direct the vessel it will have been in an event so catastrophic that the rest of the crew in any other compartments that could take control are probably already dead or dying. Spaceships are just too different from naval vessels to be able to think in the same context design wise, they have more in common with aircraft and submarines.
The advantage of the raised centre console is it gives you a view of both floors. If it was level with the ground floor, the second floor is basically out of sight. In theory he should be just able to walk over to the rail next the station he wants to and give the order then trust the officer under or above him to do it. Instead he went down and looked over their shoulder while they were doing it like he didn't trust his crew (perhaps understandable given the mutiny attempt). In fact why didn't they have any sort of internal comms, even for just the bridge crew so he didn't have to go anywhere?
Some things from an old sailor.
I served on an old ship. The USS Long Beach in the mid 80's (she was 30 odd years old at the time). She was a maintenance nightmare. We didn't have the sorts of electrical outages portrayed on the King but if she'd stayed in service another 20 or 30 years...
That center console is called a plotting table. It's intended for plotting a course and that sort of thing out of combat. You can tell that remains the case in the Expanse verse as there are no acceleration couches near it on any of the bridges. If a station is meant to be manned in combat it has to have an acceleration couch so the poor sod who operates it can be pumped full of drugs to remain conscious during high g maneuvers.
Now on keeping ships in service for a long time. The UN apparently is going with building a few ships every year but retiring even fewer. That gives them a lot of ships but most are old. The MCRN builds very good ships every year but cannot afford to keep older ships in service. They have to decommission their older ships for budgetary reasons. So they have a much smaller fleet but ship to ship they are qualitatively superior to the UNN. The UNN counts on being able to trade 2 or 3 ships to each MCRN 1 and still coming out ahead. This is very much like the US Army versus the Wehrmacht on the Western Front in WW2. The M4 Sherman was utter garbage compared the German tanks it faced but it outnumbered those tanks by a large margin. The qualitative superiority of those German tanks simply did not matter, except to the crews of the Shermans who met those German tanks.
IIRC while the UNN Jupiter Fleet was taking heavy losses it was winning the war.
What on earth makes you think that the Sherman was a bad tank? It was a quite splendid design, especially for its doctrinal purpose (infantry support). Was it a match for the Tiger or Panther in a fair 1v1 fight, no. But let me tell you a scary story: In a tank duel the one who fires first tends to win, never mind anything else and compared to its counterpart (the Pz IV Ausf G/H/J) they performed quite admirably indeed.
Besides again they weren't designed to hunt tanks (M4A1(76)W versions excluded), because tanks are really quite rare and infantry is everywhere. So it's not really a very fair comparison between a ship unable to adequately perform its primary duty; Engaging other ships and a tank which did exactly what it was supposed to do, and did well enough against secondary (armoured) targets
Mars probably does not have the Man power to crew a fleet the size of the UN.
The Expanse truly is the best Sci-fi space opera show.
Well, true, but it's the only show of its kind on screen rn, so we can't judge objectively
Dark Leome Isn’t Star Trek Picard still being produced? I know Star Trek is more space fantasy than sci-fi, but still.
Battlestar Galactica says otherwise
the ship's consoles are actually similar looking to real naval ship consoles. there are plenty of advantages of tried and true.
It's modeled after USN warships. I could easily see myself sitting at a watch stations that looked like this in CIC of a Burke.
Before I let you write this ship off as the worst. How does she compare to a ship of her age?
I mean please compare the Enterprise of WW2 to the nuclear Enterprise and tell me the ship is horrible. When she was fine in her time.
As a defense to the switches and the like. When I joined the Air Force in the very last year of the eighties and into the early ninties. Air craft still had tubes in some of their gear. When I asked why I got a shocking answer. It was more resilient to EMP. So the 'primitive' nature of her design can also be a simple way to defend against certain attacks.
Now her constant failures come from two things. Cost cutting, and a crew that had no morale. Because a ship that got to see a dock once in a while would work. And a crew that still cared would make sure it did.
I feel like American Ben wants me to watch The Expanse. I can't figure out how or why I got this feeling but I feel it.
Future you wants you to watch The Expanse :P
I want you to watch the Expanse. People you don't know want you to. Your future self want you to. Chrisjen Avasarala wants you to stop wasting everyone's time and get off your ass and watch the Expanse or within a week she'll have you on basic (you'll understand once you have watched the Expanse which you will do).
Really watch it. It's probably the best science fiction series on television ever.
Well, Some others seem to also want me to watch The Expanse...I do have a prime account. Maybe.
@@KenS1267 I absolutely agree! I tell absolute strangers to watch The Expanse in the check out line at the store. It IS the best Sci Fi series ever produced.
no i want you to read the expanse it leaves more room for Imagination and you should almost always read the source material
As of now, the Expanse is my favorite TV show
Excellent choice
Do you know some site where I can watch it?
you can watch it with amazon prime
Dank User I love the Expanse, but was somewhat underwhelmed by the latest season. As a start I had hoped the move to Amazon would see us getting a few more episodes per season, but instead we got fewer than any season but the first. IMO it also felt like less like it ended on a cliffhanger and more like they ended it halfway through the season.
@@johnpatz8395 The reason it feels like half a season is because they only covered 1 book season 4 and they streamlined it a bit. All the other seasons except the first had most of 1 novel and part of another since the 1st season only made it about 2/3 of the way through the first book.
"Up and Down" and "along the keel" is the same for ships in "The Expanse".
They use their forward thrust or breaking to create artificial gravity during their accelerations and deccelerations and accordingly their decks are all orientated 90° turned if compared to the average sci-fi ship from other series.
Buttons/keyboards are part of the cannon lore, simply because when you're pulling 20Gs and you need G-fuel injected directly in your veins to stay awake. The pressure is like an elephant swan diving on top of you (qoute from the book). You won't be able to lift your fingers up, don't need to talk about joysticks.
Keyboards like today are ergonomic and you can put your fingers appropriately on the current keys like how most F keys in the keyboards have a little bump so you can easily place your fingers on the home row.
TouchPad and flat screens might not give you that sensory detail you need. Don't need to over design that works well.
Also when touchpads tend to break the whole pad is broken whereas when a key breaks, it is just they one key.
@@MrTHEPROUD Given how Rocinante's screens worked after getting shot with PDC (battle of Thoth station), it seems Mars figured it out.
The Agatha King reminds me of Battlestar Galactica. It may have been one of the oldest serving capital ships but some circumstances it's limitations became it's advantages. Battlestar Galactica was almost impossible to hack by the Cylons because it's systems were not integrated and appear to be almost analogue. I imagine Agatha King had this sort of advantage.
Being old is not always a disadvantage in being able to do the job well. Look at the Fairey Swordfish in WW2 a completely obsolete Bi-Plane that wasn't surpassed by more modern aircraft in it's role as a Torpedo bomber throughout WW2. The Hawker Siddeley Harrier which is still in service with the US Marines is a pretty much obsolete aircraft but no plane can VTOL like it can still today. Same goes for the A-10 Warthog...old plane but superb at what it does and has no real peer even today.
also older radar systems are capable of detecting modern stealth aircraft
@@theultrahdgamer3540 because lower operating frequency
Actually on a USS carrier the CnC/ CIC is laid out pretty similar to ships in the Expanse. I was in the Navy
Good to know, since when I tried to do research on such things for my own starfleet, all I could find was WWII stuff. Not so much the modern ships.
Mind you, me and Google don't get along anymore.
The Martian Navy, or the Danish Navy?.😀
The Expanse is the best Sci-fi piece of media. Change my mind
I won’t call you ignoramus. B5 is great. Apparently a slight rip off of LOTR. But The Expanse is a world I can dive into and forget everything else.
Depends on what you want. The Expanse is a fantastic hard sci-fi, and I admit it's nice to see someone make the effort.
But in terms of story, or creating a sense of wonder, I'd argue others did that much better. I might even say that in terms of the best action show, it still isn't quite the best.
So it depends on what kind of sci-fi you like. I'm more partial to Star Trek because it feels grounded in real science, and even their made up science often feels believable, yet it has fantastic story (most of the time), engaging characters, and many times has that sense of wonder to it. But that's the kind of sci-fi I prefer, so naturally I'd like it more. Others like Star Wars better for the fantasy in space type of Sci-fi. None is exclusively better than another. They just appeal to different sects of the sci-fi fandom.
Of course, the console also has a joystick, presumably for piloting.....
I imagine there are several identical consoles that all share the same functions, and this one is just designated to the highest ranking individual available for the position.
so its better for focusing task, multi tasking consoles sound good but i want an ensign at navigation focus only for navigating and obviously it should be only the captain possessing capability to watch over everything.
loving all The Expanse vids lately, ggwp
I love the low hanging cabling and pipework. This is actually really common on older navy ships new systems get added that were not in the original designs, so they ceilings get lower and lower. A good example of this is the USS Midway that went through 2 major refits and numerous smaller ones over it 50+ year service life. Many of the walkways have so many pipes and cables added that you have to duck to get through them, it is especially noticeable on the bridge where the ceiling is less than 6ft up in some spots!
Loving all The Expanse content!
I hope the next character piece is Klaes Ashford. Don't disappoint me ;)
Also Admiral Souther or Fred Johnson
I’d criticized you before for conflating “ceaseless” with “caseless” ammunition. But know I’ve always thought your analysis has always been spot on. I really appreciate your commentary. Thanks man. You’re insights are invaluable. You always help me to understand the bigger picture.
The Agatha King is the Battlestar Galactica of the UN Navy, which by default makes it the best ship.
The Agatha King is basically the Ticonderoga Class: half-assedly upgraded over the decades thanks to budget cuts, but is still extremely capable, however, its age is really starting to show. Even further upgrades are economically unjustifiable. The Donnager on the other hand, is a brand new Zumwalt with all the newest missiles and tech. 1-on-1, the Zumwalt is a lot more likely to win, but the Ticonderoga still stands a decent chance.
I'd say true Zumwalt of the Expanse is Amun-Ra-class stealthship.
As anyone with a touch screen-only vehicle soon finds out, actual buttons and switches are pretty awesome
Man, I haven't heard a MS DOS burn in years. Nice
Thank you America Ben. Cool video.
The Agatha and the Behemoth are two totally different ships based on two totally different design philosophies for two totally jobs. You're bad at this.
Yeah, the Behemoth is a colony ship built by some mormons, whereas the Agatha King is the flagship of a major space navy.
It's not a good sign that the former has a better bridge/CIC than the latter.
@@callumunga5253
The Agatha Kings CIC is simple. The more complicated the layout, the more that can go wrong. And as other commentators have said Touchscreens aren’t that useful on a warship.
Wrong. Behemoth was repurposed as military warship. Dreadnought, in fact, and flagship. It's role was very similar to that of Agatha King.
Hey, hey, hey... easy now... Ol' Agatha is basically the "Serenity" of the Expanse. Old, slow, on the brink of flying to pieces at the drop of a hat. But tougher than old boots, beloved by it's crew which it always brings home. What more can one ask of a true "Hero-Ship"??
I have to say it, in terms of ergonomics I’d greatly prefer physical keys to a touch screen, or especially a gesture screen. What seems like it would make the most sense though is to have a screen be essentially a large hand terminal with a conventional keyboard and magnetically affixed mouse. In this way it can display information either as a screen or project a hologram, it can respond to keyboard and mouse inputs, touch inputs, and gesture inputs, and thus maximize its flexibility.
Hand terminals seem cheap, practically every character has one, so it’s not an economic limitation at all, nor a technical one since they seem essentially compatible and homogeneous with all other tech in the setting.
3:03 Forget the coffee setup being simplistic… what about when the ship is in _zero gee,_ it won't be under forward thrust permanently.
Also comments on Holden, an uncomplicated, practical man, who came from operating an old ice freighter to suddenly complaining about the modern amenities being to old in the officer's mess on a large military flagship :)
Well I'm pretty sure the Thomas Prince from the whole initial Ring Gate arc is the same class as the Agatha King. And we certainly see the effects of sudden massive deceleration on that ship...
@@zachchartier570 splat.
Magnets sir, all solved with magnets.
I dont know that you've been fair to the Truman class vessels, (the Thomas Prince and the Tripoli are of the same class) the behemoth was a hasty conversion to a battle ship and poorly executed at that. The Truman class ships are at least one generation (probably 2 or 3) older than the Martian corvette, Donnager and scirocco class hence it looks old fashioned in comparison.
Absolutely love your prose. So ELOQUENT
I love the UN ships. They appear a lot more reliable and more practical. While the ones from Mars seems they will need constant software updates, troubleshooting and a very busy IT department because someone forget their password.
UN ships might be ugly but you know at the worse of times it’s gonna work. Also it’s easier to use manual controls than digital touch screen controls under pressure.
Mars ships takes a rail gun hit. Captain gets unbalanced, flings hands and accidentally disarms their weapon systems or logs out, etc.
Un ship. Captains does the same dance but gets back up, pushes button and blows up the enemy. While the Martian is too busy logging back in.
Looking like quarantine hit American Ben hard...
Showing of the guns! Nice!
I thought the different layouts of the bridge reflected different command structures, with the MCRN having much more centralised command focused on the captain, aided by automated systems, whereas the UN had more distributed command with each officer doing his job with more personal initiative, leeway and responsibility, with the captain merely conducting the orchestra.
command line interfaces are great! not only can you script them, but with context based text completion and vim style shortcuts i anm confident to win any space battle any time!
I hear the Agatha Kings Initialization Sequence is stored on a set of 3.5" Floppy Disc's.
Am i the only person who thinks the truman class is much cooler than the donnager class? It looks more realistic and from a book reader more like how the book describes ships.
I certainly enjoyed designing and building my Truman model than I did the Donnager model. The ship looks simple but has some really subtle details that are quite hard and challenging to get right. The flying pods on each side supported by girders and the 6 engines plus their various cowels. The Donnager on the other hand was just a pain to design. Lots of odd shapes and bits that required odd supporting parts to get the front end right.
The Agatha King is less an out dated battle ship and more a mobile space station with guns. Makes me think of what the OPA Behemoth could have been with 10-20 years of polish as an impromptu warship.
Epic world building
Nothing wrong with a little analog for redundancy. And last I heard, the US Navy is switching back. Because touch screens are not seeming to pass muster.
Great video! The nice coffee maker is on the Thomas Prince! 😁
the US navy tried to make a bridge with touch screens. from what I remember reading they refit it back to standard because they hated it. think about all the shaking in combat and your hands sliding all over.
Plus, touch screens don't work when covered with blood.
Don't hate on my girl Agatha.
Ben, I want to participate in your writing contest but i do not have a facebook account. Is there another way to enter into the contest?
The Agatha King makes me think that such an old ship would be more reliable in terms of physical controls. Think about it... if a Martian vessel using 98% holographic displays and touch-screen controls suddenly loses those touch-screens and holographic displays, it’s basically dead in the water. The Agatha King mitigated this by completely avoiding holographic displays and only using touch-screens where it was practical. The rest were analogue controls, and were more reliable in a system outage. All the King needs is a rewiring and she’ll be a juggernaut, almost.
We've seen on -Tachi- Rocinante that Martian displays remain functional even after a PDC round goes through them.
First of all, i really enjoy your work at generation tech and it is always a great pleasure for me to Watch your videos, especially on the expanse. This post than i made is not to convince you than you are wrong, which would be very arrogant by me, but more an exposure of what i think ebecause i don't realy agree. So please people keep in mind than this post is not a critic but rather a different opinion and i invit you all to talk about yours as well
first of all i am not sure to understand why you often put an VS between the Truman class and the Behemoth, i don't think it's Wise to compare an built in purpuse warship such as the Truman class, and an reconverted civilian ship such as the Behemoth, an Moving space station than the belter try to convert in a battleship. Second i get the idea than the Agatha King is old, quite old, but old doesn't Always ryme with inefficient. And to prove my point i am going to use two exemple, one from the series and one from our world.
In the series, despite the agatha king age, admiral souther was non the less able to inflict serious strike to the MCRN, wich can mean several thing, either Admiral Souther is a real Genius, or the MCRN officers in charge were incompetent, or the Agatha king may be a reliable ship despite his age.
My second exemple come frome an former exercise between the French and Us navy, the US navy wanted to test there new shining aircraft carrier wich was all featured with new tech, and ask the french to lend one attack submarine, an old design wich was going to be replace by the newer Baracuda class. In 9 days, the aircraft carrier as long as 75% of his escort fleet was sunk. Yes theyre could be many reasons, but it shows than having state of the art technologies doesn't make evrything.
Also, even if the UN's Navy seems to be filed with poorly design ship and with most of them being out of the date in comparaison to there martian counterpart, from what we see and hear in the show, they are apenrently winning the war. We have sevral quote of Alex and Errinwrigh that can lead us to think that. Yes we could think than Errinwright is optimistic about how the war goes on to keep it going, but i think than Errinwright is evrything exept blind and incompetent, so for me his word about the war can be trusted.
Anyway, that's simply my opinion and the way i see things in the Expanse, i do realy enjoy your work at generation tech, and i am impatient to see future content. And remenber, Humanity First !
PS: i am not English native speaker, so i do apologize for gramatical and orthographic fault i may have done.
I mean you say that yet the marshins managed to wital down the unn numbers advantage from 5 to 1 to 3 to 1 nomader how that happened that took a 7 to 1 kill ratio by the marshons inorder to pull off and based on the fight we actually saw, the king would have lost that fight to the mars cruser sense it could gust keep it out of her range if they wanted to.
Iven so earth was winning the war but it was definitely because they had so many more ships not because they where any good.
@@c.j.3404 indeed the main strengh of UN's Navy is it's number , my point is not to say than UN's ship are better than martian, wich they obviously aren't, but what i am trying to say is choosing to much quality over realibility and number isn't that of great idea (German's tanks know what i mean lol). But i think the UN's navy is a bit too much undermined because theyr ship are of lesser quality than their martians counterpart. Yet they were winning the war, yes with great losses, but still, they were winning. You mentioned the advantages the Hammurabi had (and in general all the MCRN ship's) over the UNN Agatha king, yet Admiral souther was able despite this disadvantages, to take out multiple MCRN ship on his own, and we also know from Alex and Naomi, when they were looting MCRN's ship, than those martian had been take out quickly, they did'nt even pull out theyr pdc. I agree that number did help earth won the war, but the quality of the admiral's, and captain's, and ship's are also to be taken in account. Thus, but this argument is more hypothethical since we don't have any quote from the show, but we can guess than UN's ship are far more easy to build, repair and deploy than their martian counterpart, because of the way they were design, to be reliable cheap ship to produce and maintain. But this is only an hyppothesis since i cannot confirm it with quote from the show or the book.
I do not deny the technoligcal advantages the MCRN had on the UN's Navy, i only say that UN's ship are not that bad from what the show tells us. indeed they took out a great number of un's ship, but they suffer heavy losses too, wich is not something they could afford, unlike the UN.
In the end, i do believe than technological advantages is a bit too much taken in account, at the expanse of other parameters that are yet as crucials as technologie, like logistics, supply consumption, numbers, reliability, maintenance, cost efficiency, autonomy etc. I love the MCRN for theyre design and state of the art technological ship, like the badass donnager, but if had to chose a navy, i will go for the UN's, a true practical and effective navy.
@@paulriquier9216 but we didn't see suther fight any marshion ships? Only other UNN ships and even then that was a very chaotic situation.
And also 7 to 1 kill ratio is tarable, from the evidence we actually git from the show it prity clear that the UNN ships where gust tarable and it honestly seems like both sides where in a deadlock gust before that final battle.
About those console interfaces... I have a touchscreen computer. I use a keyboard and mouse with it 99.99% of the time. Why? Because a physical tactile input is better most of the time. To take this into a SF scenario, there is a reason, stated in-show, why Tom Paris designed the Delta Flyer with buttons and knobs instead of an LCARS cockpit setup. It's just better.
But yeah, the command station should be able to at least monitor all consoles if not be able to mimic all of them if it's going to exist at all.
The bridge on the Agatha King looks very similar to the bridge on Marco Inaros' Free Navy flagship
How about doing a film on the five stealth platforms that earth used railguns alone to destroy. What was their capabilities and what about this Mars stealth tech?
The center console is a flag bridge for the admiral of the fleet and his staff. The bridge is above and below.
Don't forget Spacedock's excellent video on it. I recall he was allowed to make up some of the lore for it.
When you look at the statistics on Truman class , it looks like it would have won the battle against those stealth Corvettes
Great video, i like your expanding the Expanse. Ripshaw here.
More Robotech please, look into the RPG books for cooler info
It's a bit like the Battlestar Galactica my gest back in the days when that ship was new computer hacking was going on and that's why there's so many station on the bridge in case one was hacked.
Something all the extra wiring and the crowded bridge give me the impression of is that this design had many features added after it was originally put together. Maybe this ship was built with all that, but that the design for the class didn't have enough room for everything they ended up cramming into it. A bit like how a modern M4 carbine is sort of awkward looking, and clearly much heavier than it really has to be for the features it has, but planners would rather slap heavy add-on mounting rails and have IR systems as separate from the existing optics even though there are options which would save a lot of weight, just because that's how the procurement process works. The result works fine, but it leaves you thinking there must be better alternatives.
"Don't listen to him, Agatha!"
The best comparison between the Donnager and the King using today's hardware would be to look at the different control systems on the Crew Dragon vs the Starliner.
At 8:29, the meeting in the medbay, is that a Mr. Fusion on the wall near the Bed 03 sign?
This is more like a CIC than a bridge, but this serves both functions. Even in Star Trek and Star Wars, the bridge and the CIC are the in function and space. Can you make a counter video about the Donagers CIC/bridge being so advanced! I'd love a breakdown of that also. It would perfectly compliment this video as being it's direct counter.
The UNN needs to take the Star Craft route, round up all the undesirables on to huge super carriers and send em off to another sector of space to encounter the zerg and protoss.
While I do love the MCRN ships I think that the Expanse could have used an Earth military perspective once or twice, an officer, a captain or maybe an intelligence agent. Something to give us a proper look into Earth's ships, policies, doctrine and so on. Holden offers it on occasion, but it is quite rare.
I do love the one time he explains to everyone else why Earth starts an inter-planetary war. All projections for war between Earth and Mars end the same, Earth loses. Except for when they fire first, and cripple the smaller Martian navy enough for the Earth's infrastructure and logistical apparatus to truly turn the tide of the conflict.
The video description of the king reminds me of the Piller of Autumns
An old but loveable ship.
The Truman class is one of my favorite Expanse ships
Donnager looks like a flying Eiffel tower while Agatha King looks like a giant cataphract mace, god I love these ship designs
What confused me about season 3 is what happened to the protomolecule from the drop pods? Anyone knows this, I’d be appreciative.
I argue that the class just needed an overhaul. But perhaps due to the size of the fleet, distance to travel & a cold war in danger of going hot anytime played into that delay. I would also argue that sometimes simpler is better.
Star pumping iron so your shoulder can match your exalted prose.
the prop buyers went Saitek for the joystick on the Agatha King's pilot/weapons console - Saitek X55
The blue lighting on the bridge acctualy aids in good visual in the lower lighting.
I've often wondered about that. Red is often thought of first in terms of combat lighting, but I wonder if ships might actually switch to something else for whatever reason. I'm all for different lighting for combat, but I like to think things all of the way through, so I wonder if something other than dim and red is the best choice.
This ship is inspired from USS Iowa that still use its old targeting system even in the end of the war
I love the unn Agatha
I am currently doing my second rewatch of the expanse to prepare for my table-top Expanse game Because I have been fiending for a d&d-type game in forever, god my belter-Creole is gonna be awful. Having said all that I havent gotten to this point yet so my memory is fuzzy on th3 Agatha King but holy god she is old!!
One thing i never quite get was why railguns have "range", while space is not entirely empty; i would still presume that the range dropoff should be minimal. The only thing a larger railgun would have over a smaller rail gun should not be range, but rather more explosive strength, or better munition acceleration speeds and overall speed?
The rail gun projectile is moving fast, but not light speed. Radar/lidar systems do move at light speed. The projectile is detectable, and as such with warning, you can avoid the incoming round.
@@BarrowDAMarine I am not saying that you cant dodge rail gun shots, but that there would be no comparison between range of vessels due to range limitations on railguns. However stationary defenses on the other hand would have difficulties. Even with thrusters they would have to burn a bunch of fuel to maneuver out of orbit and back (if they even can maneuver) especially if the shot is aim at their center.
Of course you can always just blanket an area with shots. Ships are still fairly big, and they usually dont have much side thrusters especially on battlehsip class.
There is a difference between absolute range (the distance your weapon can reach) and effective range (the distance at which it is capable of harming a target). A railgun has an infinite absolute range but a rather short effective range. If the projectiles travel time is long enough the target can either dodge or try to intercept it. Effective range depends on your weapon, your targeting systems and the capabilities of your target.
@@Schlachti10 Thanks for explaining, that makes more sense now. However this would mean that the effective range of an enemy ship is dependent on your ship's maneuverability. Which means the range is different depending on which ship you are measuring against; and how badly damage the ship is (dmged engines -> no maneuverability -> sitting duck -> infinite range?)
But this is counter intuitive to today's definition of weapon range. i.e. the range of a rifle is not contingent on whether someone can do bullet time and dodge the shot. Granted if it was an arrow, a fast enough person can pluck it out of the sky. Perhaps it comes down to how fast the railgun shots are travelling vs the maneuverability vs the precision of sensors.
Buttons and switches isnt necessarily a bad thing. They are usually more reliable than touch screen, depending on the tech of course.
Since the UN doesnt have too many resources, I would imagine that if they were to use touch screen tech, it would go dead if the display is shot, if that were the case a good old fashioned button works better.
As to how Mars could build more ships of advanced design;- Mars has vast mineral reserves, unlike Earth that's been massively strip mined and depends on the belt for resources.
Don't forget, you have to paint the name on every flat surface because you might forget this terrible duty station.
As someone whose first duty station was Fort Drum your comment made me giggle 🤣
Hey cover the ND-001 Nadesico from Martian Successor Nedesico. Its a ship that deserves a breakdown. Fun fact the ships name translates to Woman. Yes the ship is named the woman.
For a literal translation, sure, but you're missing a *whole* lot of context there.
"Nadesico" is actually the stylized Ideal of the Perfect Japanese Woman and all that it entails, so calling someone a "nadesico" is *FAR* more than simply calling them "a woman" (see the Captain herself - Yurika - who is a modernized version of the Nadesico Ideal.)
@@digitalis2977 The exact term is "Yamato Nadeshiko". The complete title of the series "Kidou Senkan Nadesico" (Mobile Battleship Nadesico) is likely a play on "Uchuu Senkan Yamato" (Space Battleship Yamato) and "Kidou Senshi Gundam" (Mobile Suit Gundam). AFAIK In the manga version by Kia Asamiya, the the ship is later upgraded and actually renamed to "Yamato Nadesico".
Finally, the Nadesico-class ships are named after flowers. Actually, most of the ships in the TV series (and movie) are named after flowers.
Buttons and stickers. Boeing like that.