I am fascinated by how comfortable you are touching the terminals of the cells after you told these cells are capable of outputting a lot of currents. It looks like it is perfectly safe to handle terminals if you don't have any metal. I did not know humans resistance is that high enough to enables us to safely handle terminals. I love your videos
Correct, the body's resistance is so high and the voltage is so low. They are only 3 volt cells, even the whole bank at 14.5 volts can be touched. With very sweaty skin there is a little bit of a tickle, but not very much.
When I started studying electricity in school I couldn’t understand how you could touch 115 volt power and not die. My teacher hooked one of the kids in the class to the larger variable supply in the lab. He held the terminals in his hands. We could see the voltage and the current thru his body. He really didn’t feel much till 80 volts Ac. He took him to15 milliamperes or so with no serious issues. The resistance of the human body is in the mega ohms. Obviously if wet it goes down. At 12 volts the current thru your body is negligible. Later in life I was wiring a panel in a warm space and was getting a tingle of the neutral. I was pretty sweaty from working up there for a while. My boss came up and with his very callused hands and not being sweaty he couldn’t feel a thing.
love your work. just wanted to chime in that i used rv water tank heater pads. they are self regulated and only need a 12v input. in case anyone is looking for a more user friendly option.
I just finished building a similar setup for my 6kwh pack in my camper. I have it set to keep my battery at 22-24 degrees constantly only using a 20 watt 12v heat pad and a well insulated box.
@@PaDutchRunner I got a 15w bathroom mirror heating pad that runs on 12v, a digital thermostat from ebay. Have yet to install it in my van but starting to feel like 15w might not be enough. Heating pad is Demista brand, lots of sizes to chose from.
Martin K Thanks for the info! I ended up buying two heated pet cushions that I plan to place on top of my battery bank, with a heavily insulated winter coat placed over top of both the pet cushions and the bank. I haven’t tried it out yet, but I have a hunch that the coat will trap enough heat to cause a substantial warming effect, while at the same time insulating against the ambient temp (you know, behaving like a coat). The pet cushions have some suitable properties - they are weatherproof, they do not have timers (because pets can’t reengage once the time is up), and shave what I presume to be a solid thermostatic set up - because the life of the pet would be at stake in the event of overheating, etc.
I did much the same to my Lifepo4 RV pack using a 12v heater pad on a thick alloy plate though spaced the cells slightly off it so air would circulate - I think my heat pad was designed for beekeepers to keep the hive warm in winter- My pack differs as I put 650F 6 Supercaps in parallel with it to act as a buffer to flatten out spikes and surges when the inverter goes on - My pack is in a 2" Celotex box - I have noticed the battery get 8C warmer when say it's getting a 30amp charge for 4 hours from the solar - it might be an issue in warmer climates but OK here in Blighty
I haven't been able to measure any spikes or dips on our batteries when hitting it with a big load... But since we filmed this video, we've upgraded to 20 CALB cells, shown here: czcams.com/video/2uYENzaDBY4/video.html Also, there is no increase in temperature even when charged at 80A, I don't know that the cells self hearting is a good thing...
Two suggestions to increase safety. Perhaps a 400 watt matte is a bit much? You could conceivably cook off the batteries if it sticks on. Other idea would be to put the secondary side of the mechanical relay in series with another relay that’s always held closed/on by the arduino. Add an “if” statement that would open this new relay if the temperature sensor reads too high and can cut the current from going through the first relay. This would give redundancy if the first relay chain got stuck closed and energized the heating matt continuously. I also don’t trust the Dallas 1-wires. I’d add at least one more and place the two of them together. If the temp readings between the two sensors gets too far apart then shut down the heater.
Both great ideas! We sold our house in Canada and made our way south, haven't had to heat the batteries since Colorado... Currently in Mexico and haven't had any problems with freezing here 🌴🌵🤣
Personally, I put a snap disk cutoff switch "rated" for 40c on each end cell in my pack as close to the bottom heaters as I could get my drill. The heaters will be wired through them and should provide some over temp fault control while my controller is set to, say, 4c and something bad happens to the relay. I hope to test this soon.
Put a normally closed thermal switch in line with the heating element (of sufficient amperage) and it can cut the system off if something goes wrong. That's what I use.
You have given me some ideas for my 4 - 100AH LiFePo4 battery bank project for my remote cabin. Have built PID controllers - cost maybe $12 plus project box thru AliExpress. Since you need AC to power it, something like a SureSine 300w inverter which only draws 55ma on standby should work. Yes, Auduino programming is sexy w/ duty cycle % and all, but I need cheap, simple, reliable w/ a failsafe disconnect from MPPT if temp does indeed drop below threshold set.
Do you ever anticipate needing to cool the batteries as well? If so perhaps a solution would be to put spacers between your batteries and channel air from a tiny squirrel cage fan (for quietness) through them. Then incorporate a small heating element that the fan exhaust blows through...turned on when needed for cold weather.
No. Unlike Lead Acid or NiCad etc, Li-Fe don't self heat from charging or discharging. At least not at the relatively low (200amp) rates we're using them. The batteries are located inside our living space, and if it's getting that hot, it's probably quite sunny, and we would have had the air conditioner running.
Great job man. I haven't automated my system yet just depend on the thermostat that came with the heater and a 1-hour timer from a 12V heated blanket. Pretty rough setup but it worked for this winter. I am working a 12V outlet box with an ESP board inside with a relay running another relay, I was trying to find a bigger relay controller to skip the second relay just not as easy to find for sure yet. I have seen that it sure does make the battery charge faster although it says you can charge at above 0C getting the battery up to 20C makes a big difference.
Hi, there Very nice video on DIY battery heater for Lithium LFP batteries or any Lithium batteries of comparable size. I subscribed to follow the work you do. Thanks again
Hey Jason. Is there any overlanding problem that you have not already resolved? I was starting to think about this so I searched on youtube and your video pops amongst the first 5 results. Neat solution.
The charge controller has its own internal temperature sensor, and a second inside the battery bank. Further, it has user selectable upper and lower thresholds for temperature and will cut the charge and/or load FETs if the batteries temps go outside these parameters. Further, the controller monitors each cell and if any one cell goes above or below prescribed thresholds, the charge and load is disconnected.
We were in Mexico for a couple of months, Giving a presentation at Overland Expo this weekend in Flagstaff, then into Northern California quite likely. Will be in touch if I'm down that way again.
Just a note to anyone thinking of using the amazon water tank heat pads and the metal plate as done here, must of the those heat pads cannot be used on metal they are designed to be used on plastic,, not sure about the more expensive silicon ones... Just a heads up. you could use a thin piece of plastic and then the allum... maybe
@@Everlanders All i know is i found a website that sells them other than amazon and they had more detailed information stating not to be used on meatal surface unless special ordered to do so... Not sure?? but if it is true...
I know this is an old video but do you have any details on the enclosure you fabricated for the cells. I plan to double my capacity from 4 to 8 cells and wondered how you had contained the 8 cells. I know you massively upgrade in the future. Thanks
Great work my friend 👍 I was thinking to myself on controlling the battery compartment temp with the espar (or equivalent) diesel heater, having a electronically controlled butterfly to adjust the air flow when needed. For this setup will be needed 2 temp sensors. One for the living space and additional for the battery space...as well as a Park mode switch/state (when away). Those this make any sense?
battleborn charge $220USD for a 30w heatpad and only heats 1 100AH battery oO but they are wrap around pads. is this 400w on the bottom good enough or should u divide it into 4x100w pads for even heating.
You have had your warming system a long time now. Do you know how many watts are needed (or percent on time for your 400w heater)to keep the batteries at 20C when the outside temperature is 0C. Trying to get handle on number of watts needed a specific temperature rise. I personally built a warmer that circulates are around all 6 side of my 2 100amp batteries. Battery box is 3/4" plywood with no insulation. At 0F ambient it takes about 160 watts to hold the batteries at 50F. Just trying to get a reality check. Thanks
So why would you not run it off the batteries? the pad will start before they get cold to discharge and you have amble battery storage... I ask as that is the way i plan to do it. as i do not have has much solar panels on mine but ample battery storage. Thanks
teslas do it? i thought you invented this. Still a great demo! big problem for e bikes riding during the winter in Ontario Canada. Need a on board heater for cars and bikes for the future of this industry. Come up with this $$$$$$. Cheers
It's no mystery, the bike manufactures could have done this, but the percentage of people needing this doesn't make it worthwhile. I'd imagine that a small amount of insulation would keep batteries warm enough for commutes that a human can endure...
Does the ElectroDacus BMS measure temperature as well to do Low-Temp cutoff? Where did you place the DS-1820 thermometer? When your pad starts heating, I imagine it takes a while to heat up the whole battery pack from just the bottom, and wonder if it isn't better to use a few pads in between the batteries to warm them up over their entire length, rather than just the bottom section. If you have your BMS measure at the posts, you can block it from charging under 0C, but if the bottom of the battery is 5C and your DS-1820 cuts off, you still don't have a charge. Did you measure the temp difference between bottom and top?
Yes, the BMS has a user configurable Low Temp Cutoff. The DS-1820 is in the center of the pack. If you want more pads between cells that would be fine too, whatever floats your boat. We're nearing Guatemala now, so it hasn't been used in a couple of years...
How about adding heater pads to the sides of the box as well? That would heat the batteries much more evenly and therefore quicker, and you could use lower powered pads (if they are available?)
Hi 😁 great vid. want to do the same in my van. Can you tell me what you have below the battery unit? what does the heat matt and plate sit against? I am trying to figure out what would be best to put below my battery units. Thanks 😁
i'm looking to install a system like this In my truck camper as id be leaving in here year-round in Kamloops (so not super cold but below zero for sure) how would you recommend powering a system like this if it's not off the main battery it's warming? I won't be driving all-day so id be unable to run it off the car battery. but maybe use that to start off each morning and then run it off the battery its warming for the rest of the day? Or any ideas to improve the system? lower power usage maybe? Id love to hear some of your ideas. Loved the Video! super helpful
We wouldn't ever run the heater off the battery except in a deep freeze emergency, the heater is powered directly off the solar so they start warming as soon as the sun comes up. Heating overnight isn't really needed if the box is well insulated - it's such a big thermal mass it takes a long time to cool (and heat). I don't think I'd use a high wattage heater if I was to do it again, 80-100w would be plenty in an insulated box.
@@Everlanders perfect thank you! this looks like the best system then. Do you have it directly linked to solar or do you run it through an MPPT and other things first?
3 years in have you had any faults? Edit: I see you stated about a year back that they've been ok. I just stuck a 15w pad under each one of my cells and have redundant snap disk cutoffs at 104F in place. Since these pads can get very hot im curious to understand the reliability issues.
The code utilizes Brett Beauregard's PID Library: playground.arduino.cc/Code/PIDLibrary I found a project a while ago that I stripped down and simplified for another project I was doing, it's become my go-to PID sketch. In the same way that voice dictation and spell checkers make people horrible spellers, widely available libraries make for poor coders.
I love your video. I do have a question though, about your 20 degrees C setting choice. If the LiFePo4 batteries charge just fine down to 0 degrees C, why not control the heater to just keep the temperature to something just above that, 3, 4, or 5 degrees C. I mean, if you are using battery power to run the heater, then it seems reasonable that you'd want to use as little energy as possible, especially if your in a cold climate.
@@Everlanders Thanks for replying so quickly. Now I feel more confident about my thinking to build a similar temperature controlled battery box for my alternate power automatic transfer switch.
@@HarmonicResearch spec sheet for the CALB minimum charge temp is 0°c which is whatever that converts to in your daft Fahrenheit measurements :D but for safety / error margin I would would limit it to a minimum of 5°c to be on the safe side
Any suggestions on a heating pad to use? I saw below that you used a 400w pad -- haha. I'm struggling to find something thats a much lower wattage and power consumption that doesn't have a built in thermostat. I want to use my own thermostat to set the temp. Any ideas? Thanks!
Mine does not have a thermostat built in... It does have a temperature sensor, most do. But you can abandon it and use your own thermostat to control the temperature as I did. Look into 3D printer bed heating mats. They are available in many wattages. 400 watts is a little bit much, but when I considered that I can't charge the lithium batteries until they are above freezing, I wanted to heat them up as quick as possible, the fastest recovery time... if you are just maintaining temperature, you could get away with much less.
@@Everlanders Thanks -- just seems like really high power consumption and really high heat. I want to install a heating pad on the bottom of my 9" tall batteries and gently warm them back up, not bring a ton of heat into the bottom that may not transfer quickly to the top. Just want to keep them at about 40-45 degrees through the winter when ambient temps may otherwise be below freezing. Having a lot of trouble finding a low wattage heating pad -- only really seeing pet and people pads/blankets that are low wattage. Surprised its so much of a struggle! A company called Keenovo makes a lot of pads, but still nothing 12v and low wattage unfortunately.
@@Everlanders I found one tonight that is 5" x 14" and 30w -- I think this might be a good choice for me. Here's the link: www.zasales.com/BME9.html?fbclid=IwAR0-9TIVzNnL3jIdHZeJ1mz1HOMOKsqhCJ9bohUAAtwioxQ74bqNk1jH7y8 Going to talk to the company and probably give it a shot. my battery footprint is about 5.8" x 19" so I will attach the heating pad to the underside of an aluminum plate similar to what you did to help spread the heat out a bit more, and hope that the box is insulated well enough that the batteries on the end will stay up to temp even if they're not in direct contact with the heating pad since its a little smaller. What do you think?
I am fascinated by the degree of tech involved on your whole solar + battery system. After talking about safety first you started touching multiple battery connections without the Lexan. All over touching. Was that because it was completely dead? I would never touch the positive and negative terminals on my truck battery, yet you seem to do that a lot on this video. I was clenching during the viewing. There must be a good reason. Also it would be cool to know how these bus bars are wired series parallel etc. Maybe that is part of the reason it was safe to touch.
12 volt batteries, as this was configured at the time (4 series 2 parallel), is not enough to shock you. Your body's resistance is too high. The danger is real however, if you dropped a wrench or something metal of low resistance, that would spark and heat up quickly.
It seems like a good idea for the winter. What do you do in the summer? I mean heat is damaging the batteries and that insulated box will keep the heat inside.
@@michaelramsey9975 I get that, but when you pull high current the battery will warm up and due to lack of air circulation the will be trapped in the box and battery would get hotter.
No, these batteries should not heat... They have a recommended max discharge of 2000 amps... And we have 5 in parallel for 10,000 Amps of capability. Looking at our logs, we've tickeld 400amps once with the AC and all 3 air compressors running at the same time... Further, battery temps have been logged for the last 3 years and our max temp was 27°c (outside air temp that day was 37°c).
Interesting. I am toying with keeping my off grid cabin batteries warm during the Alberta winter. I am using Electrodacus's DMPPT+SBMS. Was thinking to use snap switches to control a relay. One at the top (nc 20c) and one by the heating element (nc 25c) to do the cycling. Can adjust the size of the heating element by the length of the silicone wire (as per Dacion's heating element strategy). Thoughts?
So, it's 24 volt(ish)? You could connect differently to get twice the amp hrs @ 12v, right? I ask because I'm running a mix of 12 and 120 on my rig. Your panels could support quite a bit more battery could they not?
They *are* connected differently! 😁 2 Parallel, 4 series, 3.4 Volt cells = 360Ah @ 13.6v... Yes, We could support a lot more battery, but what we have is working good now... We mostly use power in the day, when there is lots of sun, and basically using straight off of the solar, When we do have high loads like Cooktop or AC it does dip into the battery a bit, but it quickly recharges. The amount of battery we have is nicely matched I think, it really just needs to get us through the nights and through weeks of rain, but our demand goes down during the nights and in rain 😁 But yeah, If I find another good deal on batteries, I would maybe double it for fun, 10kW total.
I am going to add heating to my batteries and control the heating with an arduino. What components did you use with the arduino (shields)? Can you give any details on the arduino sketch you made?
Can you suggest on a heat pad to use. I have 8 180ah Calb, they will be below Roadtrek camper living space floor, in a metal battery box 7'' 1/4 x 22'' 3/4 x 13'' deep . I Am thinking of insulating the outside of box with 1/2 '' foul foam. The temps here in mid east (Delaware) not like yours but I want to be ready.
Those are exactly the batteries I have... It is going to depend on how you'll be powering it... A 400 watt 12 volt silicone heating pad will pull about 40 amps. A 200 Watt 12 volts pad, is likely sufficient. Powering it off of 12 volts is an uphill battle, especially in winter with the solar production being so low. If you will have the option to plug into the grid, there are lots of 110 volt heater pads available too. Look up Kenovo heaters on eBay, they make many for the 3D printing market in many different flavors.
Excellent video! As a fellow Canadian I am struggling with how to solve the heating issue of Lithium. Near the end of this video you say you would be using your excess solar to power the heater. Are you able to explain or do you have a video on how you used the solar panels to power the heating element. My offgrid cabin has 2000+ watts of solar. The array is wired in series then into a Schneider MPPT charge controller. As a result, the voltage to the controller is approx 150 volts DC. So this voltage would be too high for the 12 volt heat pads etc. Any suggestions?
Wow, your vids kinda make by brain spin. You've got skiiiiiilzzzzz. So...explain this to me like I'm 5. I've got a lithium bank I want to heat. Best/newbie solution?
That is going to depend largely on the mass you need to heat. The 400 watt heater pad I used was probably two times bigger than I needed. It pulls 40 amps and heats up a bit too quick and then the controller cycles on and off, it would be better with a more gentle heat.
That's all too complicated for me and usually complicated things break down or are unreliable when your out in the middle of nowhere in your camper. I think my solution will be a much smaller heating pad with thicker aluminum in hopes to have something I can just turn on with constant current that will heat the aluminum plate around 25 Celsius maximum. Place a proper thermometer at the top of the cells and just let her run for an hour or so until the batteries reach 20C before turning on the charge controller on.
Question about temperature let's say it's 0 degree C I imagine discharging the battery will warm up the cells to hopefully a temperature that will safely accept charge. How do you calculate such rate of heating?
No, our Lithium (LiPoFe4) is immune to self-heating at the currents we're subjecting them to - We've since upgraded to 20 cells, and our suggested discharge rate before they start heating is 20,000 amps 😮
It worked well, but now that we're traveling in the rig full-time it's not needed as it's inside our living space and thus kept at a comfortable temperature all the time anyway.
@@Everlanders I've been binge watching a number of channels and Will Prowse makes a good case for the 24 volt Tesla batteries but I'm inclined to stick with 12 volt myself for simplicity.
@@YhAFbwts Don't go 24v tesla battery for Rv living, the battery chemistry dictates the voltage for the 21700 cells slightly differently than LFP chemistry, so all your charging / discharging regimes don't match up and you either waste available capacity or risk over charging them. Then there's the unstableness of the chemistry risk.. Those 21700 WILL catch on fire and runaway if you cock something up.. LFP's wont.
I can't get the ring off, which is why I tape over it. I hoped that bit would make someone laugh! You're the first to notice / post a comment! 10 bonus points for you!
@@Everlanders Ya forgot the safety squints. Must be something about Canada ;-) -- AvE uses the same pink tape over his ring, which hasn't come off either.
I am fascinated by how comfortable you are touching the terminals of the cells after you told these cells are capable of outputting a lot of currents. It looks like it is perfectly safe to handle terminals if you don't have any metal. I did not know humans resistance is that high enough to enables us to safely handle terminals. I love your videos
Correct, the body's resistance is so high and the voltage is so low. They are only 3 volt cells, even the whole bank at 14.5 volts can be touched. With very sweaty skin there is a little bit of a tickle, but not very much.
When I started studying electricity in school I couldn’t understand how you could touch 115 volt power and not die. My teacher hooked one of the kids in the class to the larger variable supply in the lab. He held the terminals in his hands. We could see the voltage and the current thru his body. He really didn’t feel much till 80 volts Ac. He took him to15 milliamperes or so with no serious issues. The resistance of the human body is in the mega ohms. Obviously if wet it goes down. At 12 volts the current thru your body is negligible. Later in life I was wiring a panel in a warm space and was getting a tingle of the neutral. I was pretty sweaty from working up there for a while. My boss came up and with his very callused hands and not being sweaty he couldn’t feel a thing.
You guys are the coolest. I love the dry Canadian humor. Keep tinkering! I love the videos.
The coolest?
How so?
He just installed a heating system. 😁
I could just hear the Russian hacker “where safety is number on priority”. Good job on explaining your setup. Very interesting!
love your work. just wanted to chime in that i used rv water tank heater pads. they are self regulated and only need a 12v input. in case anyone is looking for a more user friendly option.
I just finished building a similar setup for my 6kwh pack in my camper. I have it set to keep my battery at 22-24 degrees constantly only using a 20 watt 12v heat pad and a well insulated box.
What type of heating pad? Is it available on amazon?
@@PaDutchRunner I got a 15w bathroom mirror heating pad that runs on 12v, a digital thermostat from ebay. Have yet to install it in my van but starting to feel like 15w might not be enough. Heating pad is Demista brand, lots of sizes to chose from.
Martin K Thanks for the info! I ended up buying two heated pet cushions that I plan to place on top of my battery bank, with a heavily insulated winter coat placed over top of both the pet cushions and the bank. I haven’t tried it out yet, but I have a hunch that the coat will trap enough heat to cause a substantial warming effect, while at the same time insulating against the ambient temp (you know, behaving like a coat). The pet cushions have some suitable properties - they are weatherproof, they do not have timers (because pets can’t reengage once the time is up), and shave what I presume to be a solid thermostatic set up - because the life of the pet would be at stake in the event of overheating, etc.
@@martink9785 take them apart and stick them in the floor, save thousands for a commercial solution :P
I did much the same to my Lifepo4 RV pack using a 12v heater pad on a thick alloy plate though spaced the cells slightly off it so air would circulate - I think my heat pad was designed for beekeepers to keep the hive warm in winter- My pack differs as I put 650F 6 Supercaps in parallel with it to act as a buffer to flatten out spikes and surges when the inverter goes on - My pack is in a 2" Celotex box - I have noticed the battery get 8C warmer when say it's getting a 30amp charge for 4 hours from the solar - it might be an issue in warmer climates but OK here in Blighty
I haven't been able to measure any spikes or dips on our batteries when hitting it with a big load... But since we filmed this video, we've upgraded to 20 CALB cells, shown here: czcams.com/video/2uYENzaDBY4/video.html
Also, there is no increase in temperature even when charged at 80A, I don't know that the cells self hearting is a good thing...
Two suggestions to increase safety.
Perhaps a 400 watt matte is a bit much? You could conceivably cook off the batteries if it sticks on.
Other idea would be to put the secondary side of the mechanical relay in series with another relay that’s always held closed/on by the arduino.
Add an “if” statement that would open this new relay if the temperature sensor reads too high and can cut the current from going through the first relay. This would give redundancy if the first relay chain got stuck closed and energized the heating matt continuously.
I also don’t trust the Dallas 1-wires. I’d add at least one more and place the two of them together. If the temp readings between the two sensors gets too far apart then shut down the heater.
Both great ideas! We sold our house in Canada and made our way south, haven't had to heat the batteries since Colorado... Currently in Mexico and haven't had any problems with freezing here 🌴🌵🤣
Dem warm weather problemz
Personally, I put a snap disk cutoff switch "rated" for 40c on each end cell in my pack as close to the bottom heaters as I could get my drill. The heaters will be wired through them and should provide some over temp fault control while my controller is set to, say, 4c and something bad happens to the relay.
I hope to test this soon.
Put a normally closed thermal switch in line with the heating element (of sufficient amperage) and it can cut the system off if something goes wrong. That's what I use.
melting a wrench. 57 years old and That still excites me, lol
I used truck mirror heater. Takes 3A only, but its small space and insulated 10mm all around. Also with thermostat
You have given me some ideas for my 4 - 100AH LiFePo4 battery bank project for my remote cabin. Have built PID controllers - cost maybe $12 plus project box thru AliExpress. Since you need AC to power it, something like a SureSine 300w inverter which only draws 55ma on standby should work. Yes, Auduino programming is sexy w/ duty cycle % and all, but I need cheap, simple, reliable w/ a failsafe disconnect from MPPT if temp does indeed drop below threshold set.
??? I used no AC power in this project. A simple DC heater mat and DC controllers...
Do you ever anticipate needing to cool the batteries as well? If so perhaps a solution would be to put spacers between your batteries and channel air from a tiny squirrel cage fan (for quietness) through them. Then incorporate a small heating element that the fan exhaust blows through...turned on when needed for cold weather.
No. Unlike Lead Acid or NiCad etc, Li-Fe don't self heat from charging or discharging. At least not at the relatively low (200amp) rates we're using them. The batteries are located inside our living space, and if it's getting that hot, it's probably quite sunny, and we would have had the air conditioner running.
Great job man. I haven't automated my system yet just depend on the thermostat that came with the heater and a 1-hour timer from a 12V heated blanket. Pretty rough setup but it worked for this winter.
I am working a 12V outlet box with an ESP board inside with a relay running another relay, I was trying to find a bigger relay controller to skip the second relay just not as easy to find for sure yet.
I have seen that it sure does make the battery charge faster although it says you can charge at above 0C getting the battery up to 20C makes a big difference.
Hi, there
Very nice video on DIY battery heater for Lithium LFP batteries or any Lithium batteries of comparable size. I subscribed to follow the work you do.
Thanks again
I've been using those fotek's to run 1500 watt water heater elements for years.
Yes, the originals are good, but these turned out to be fake with crazy high on resistance.
Hey Jason. Is there any overlanding problem that you have not already resolved? I was starting to think about this so I searched on youtube and your video pops amongst the first 5 results. Neat solution.
Are you using a relay to disconnect solar when it is below 0 degrees? or does your charge controller have a low temp cut off function?
The charge controller has its own internal temperature sensor, and a second inside the battery bank. Further, it has user selectable upper and lower thresholds for temperature and will cut the charge and/or load FETs if the batteries temps go outside these parameters. Further, the controller monitors each cell and if any one cell goes above or below prescribed thresholds, the charge and load is disconnected.
@@Everlanders oh wait you're using electrodacus controller right? I forgot haha very nice!
Yup, we have 2 of them in fact.
@@Everlanders wait did you comment saying your headed this way? I'm down to meet up anytime you're in San Diego :D
We were in Mexico for a couple of months, Giving a presentation at Overland Expo this weekend in Flagstaff, then into Northern California quite likely. Will be in touch if I'm down that way again.
Just a note to anyone thinking of using the amazon water tank heat pads and the metal plate as done here, must of the those heat pads cannot be used on metal they are designed to be used on plastic,, not sure about the more expensive silicon ones... Just a heads up. you could use a thin piece of plastic and then the allum... maybe
What possible difference would it make?
@@Everlanders All i know is i found a website that sells them other than amazon and they had more detailed information stating not to be used on meatal surface unless special ordered to do so... Not sure?? but if it is true...
But without a link or a reliable source to this information, it's not really useful.
the USA F 35 jets operating in Alaska need you ! You Rock !
Thanks!
I know this is an old video but do you have any details on the enclosure you fabricated for the cells. I plan to double my capacity from 4 to 8 cells and wondered how you had contained the 8 cells. I know you massively upgrade in the future.
Thanks
Nothing special, just a plywood box.
Great work my friend 👍
I was thinking to myself on controlling the battery compartment temp with the espar (or equivalent) diesel heater, having a electronically controlled butterfly to adjust the air flow when needed. For this setup will be needed 2 temp sensors. One for the living space and additional for the battery space...as well as a Park mode switch/state (when away). Those this make any sense?
Sure, that's possible, but with so much solar doing nothing, it makes more sense for us to do it electrically. czcams.com/video/cM5s4F-7AOk/video.html
@@Everlanders I know, I've seen that "Nice Awning" ☺️
battleborn charge $220USD for a 30w heatpad and only heats 1 100AH battery oO but they are wrap around pads. is this 400w on the bottom good enough or should u divide it into 4x100w pads for even heating.
The aluminum plate acts as a heat spreader.
You have had your warming system a long time now. Do you know how many watts are needed (or percent on time for your 400w heater)to keep the batteries at 20C when the outside temperature is 0C. Trying to get handle on number of watts needed a specific temperature rise. I personally built a warmer that circulates are around all 6 side of my 2 100amp batteries. Battery box is 3/4" plywood with no insulation. At 0F ambient it takes about 160 watts to hold the batteries at 50F. Just trying to get a reality check. Thanks
In the Amazon rainforest for the last 5 years, no heater needed.
So why would you not run it off the batteries? the pad will start before they get cold to discharge and you have amble battery storage... I ask as that is the way i plan to do it. as i do not have has much solar panels on mine but ample battery storage. Thanks
Sure, run it off the batteries if you want...
Man U are smart!
teslas do it? i thought you invented this. Still a great demo! big problem for e bikes riding during the winter in Ontario Canada. Need a on board heater for cars and bikes for the future of this industry. Come up with this $$$$$$. Cheers
It's no mystery, the bike manufactures could have done this, but the percentage of people needing this doesn't make it worthwhile. I'd imagine that a small amount of insulation would keep batteries warm enough for commutes that a human can endure...
Does the ElectroDacus BMS measure temperature as well to do Low-Temp cutoff? Where did you place the DS-1820 thermometer? When your pad starts heating, I imagine it takes a while to heat up the whole battery pack from just the bottom, and wonder if it isn't better to use a few pads in between the batteries to warm them up over their entire length, rather than just the bottom section. If you have your BMS measure at the posts, you can block it from charging under 0C, but if the bottom of the battery is 5C and your DS-1820 cuts off, you still don't have a charge. Did you measure the temp difference between bottom and top?
Yes, the BMS has a user configurable Low Temp Cutoff. The DS-1820 is in the center of the pack. If you want more pads between cells that would be fine too, whatever floats your boat. We're nearing Guatemala now, so it hasn't been used in a couple of years...
How about adding heater pads to the sides of the box as well? That would heat the batteries much more evenly and therefore quicker, and you could use lower powered pads (if they are available?)
The pad is PWM temperature controlled, so it is pulsing on and off at a very high rate of speed and thus quite gentle in it's heat.
Hi 😁 great vid. want to do the same in my van. Can you tell me what you have below the battery unit? what does the heat matt and plate sit against? I am trying to figure out what would be best to put below my battery units. Thanks 😁
At the time it was just a plywood box...
i'm looking to install a system like this In my truck camper as id be leaving in here year-round in Kamloops (so not super cold but below zero for sure) how would you recommend powering a system like this if it's not off the main battery it's warming? I won't be driving all-day so id be unable to run it off the car battery. but maybe use that to start off each morning and then run it off the battery its warming for the rest of the day?
Or any ideas to improve the system? lower power usage maybe? Id love to hear some of your ideas. Loved the Video! super helpful
We wouldn't ever run the heater off the battery except in a deep freeze emergency, the heater is powered directly off the solar so they start warming as soon as the sun comes up. Heating overnight isn't really needed if the box is well insulated - it's such a big thermal mass it takes a long time to cool (and heat). I don't think I'd use a high wattage heater if I was to do it again, 80-100w would be plenty in an insulated box.
@@Everlanders perfect thank you! this looks like the best system then. Do you have it directly linked to solar or do you run it through an MPPT and other things first?
You should sell these. I’d buy one for each of my batteries
Okay, How many do you need? They're $100 each...
3 years in have you had any faults?
Edit: I see you stated about a year back that they've been ok.
I just stuck a 15w pad under each one of my cells and have redundant snap disk cutoffs at 104F in place. Since these pads can get very hot im curious to understand the reliability issues.
Would be cool if the Heating and maybe even fans for cooling was integrated in a BMS
These batteries are sealed and are inside our living space, so they are generally at temperatures that humans can tolerate.
This is genius, well done. Did you just alter existing code for the arduino or did you write it yourself?
The code utilizes Brett Beauregard's PID Library: playground.arduino.cc/Code/PIDLibrary
I found a project a while ago that I stripped down and simplified for another project I was doing, it's become my go-to PID sketch.
In the same way that voice dictation and spell checkers make people horrible spellers, widely available libraries make for poor coders.
always learning thanks
I love your video. I do have a question though, about your 20 degrees C setting choice. If the LiFePo4 batteries charge just fine down to 0 degrees C, why not control the heater to just keep the temperature to something just above that, 3, 4, or 5 degrees C. I mean, if you are using battery power to run the heater, then it seems reasonable that you'd want to use as little energy as possible, especially if your in a cold climate.
Exactly right, however it was 18° in the garage that day, so I needed to have the setpoint higher than that for testing.
@@Everlanders Thanks for replying so quickly. Now I feel more confident about my thinking to build a similar temperature controlled battery box for my alternate power automatic transfer switch.
Will a 300 amp discharge to start an engine, warm up the battery to allow it to charge with the alternator when it's ?F?
Yes
When it's 0 degrees F, 10 degrees F...how cold?
@@HarmonicResearch spec sheet for the CALB minimum charge temp is 0°c which is whatever that converts to in your daft Fahrenheit measurements :D but for safety / error margin I would would limit it to a minimum of 5°c to be on the safe side
Any suggestions on a heating pad to use? I saw below that you used a 400w pad -- haha. I'm struggling to find something thats a much lower wattage and power consumption that doesn't have a built in thermostat. I want to use my own thermostat to set the temp. Any ideas? Thanks!
Mine does not have a thermostat built in... It does have a temperature sensor, most do. But you can abandon it and use your own thermostat to control the temperature as I did. Look into 3D printer bed heating mats. They are available in many wattages. 400 watts is a little bit much, but when I considered that I can't charge the lithium batteries until they are above freezing, I wanted to heat them up as quick as possible, the fastest recovery time... if you are just maintaining temperature, you could get away with much less.
www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=heater+silicone+12+v
@@Everlanders Thanks -- just seems like really high power consumption and really high heat. I want to install a heating pad on the bottom of my 9" tall batteries and gently warm them back up, not bring a ton of heat into the bottom that may not transfer quickly to the top. Just want to keep them at about 40-45 degrees through the winter when ambient temps may otherwise be below freezing. Having a lot of trouble finding a low wattage heating pad -- only really seeing pet and people pads/blankets that are low wattage. Surprised its so much of a struggle! A company called Keenovo makes a lot of pads, but still nothing 12v and low wattage unfortunately.
Ours is made by Keenovo, they make lots of great options...
@@Everlanders I found one tonight that is 5" x 14" and 30w -- I think this might be a good choice for me. Here's the link: www.zasales.com/BME9.html?fbclid=IwAR0-9TIVzNnL3jIdHZeJ1mz1HOMOKsqhCJ9bohUAAtwioxQ74bqNk1jH7y8
Going to talk to the company and probably give it a shot. my battery footprint is about 5.8" x 19" so I will attach the heating pad to the underside of an aluminum plate similar to what you did to help spread the heat out a bit more, and hope that the box is insulated well enough that the batteries on the end will stay up to temp even if they're not in direct contact with the heating pad since its a little smaller. What do you think?
I am fascinated by the degree of tech involved on your whole solar + battery system. After talking about safety first you started touching multiple battery connections without the Lexan. All over touching. Was that because it was completely dead? I would never touch the positive and negative terminals on my truck battery, yet you seem to do that a lot on this video. I was clenching during the viewing. There must be a good reason. Also it would be cool to know how these bus bars are wired series parallel etc. Maybe that is part of the reason it was safe to touch.
12 volt batteries, as this was configured at the time (4 series 2 parallel), is not enough to shock you. Your body's resistance is too high. The danger is real however, if you dropped a wrench or something metal of low resistance, that would spark and heat up quickly.
you can touch things up to about 80 ish volts before it gives you a nice enough "tickle" that makes you want to let go.
Or 9 volts if you lick it! 🤣
Or 9 volts if you lick it! 🤣
@@Everlanders Hahaha Oh yup :D
It seems like a good idea for the winter. What do you do in the summer? I mean heat is damaging the batteries and that insulated box will keep the heat inside.
Our bodies are inside that box too... So the same AC that keeps us alive keeps them cool.
@@Everlanders I meant the box that you keep your batteries in. LOL
@@3dmixer552 is the same, the batteries are within the living quarters.
@@michaelramsey9975 I get that, but when you pull high current the battery will warm up and due to lack of air circulation the will be trapped in the box and battery would get hotter.
No, these batteries should not heat... They have a recommended max discharge of 2000 amps... And we have 5 in parallel for 10,000 Amps of capability. Looking at our logs, we've tickeld 400amps once with the AC and all 3 air compressors running at the same time... Further, battery temps have been logged for the last 3 years and our max temp was 27°c (outside air temp that day was 37°c).
Interesting. I am toying with keeping my off grid cabin batteries warm during the Alberta winter. I am using Electrodacus's DMPPT+SBMS. Was thinking to use snap switches to control a relay. One at the top (nc 20c) and one by the heating element (nc 25c) to do the cycling. Can adjust the size of the heating element by the length of the silicone wire (as per Dacion's heating element strategy). Thoughts?
Yeah, should work fine...
2,000 to 5,000 amps, sounds like it could start a diesel truck with a proper BMS. yes?
Indeed it has...
So, it's 24 volt(ish)? You could connect differently to get twice the amp hrs @ 12v, right? I ask because I'm running a mix of 12 and 120 on my rig. Your panels could support quite a bit more battery could they not?
They *are* connected differently! 😁 2 Parallel, 4 series, 3.4 Volt cells = 360Ah @ 13.6v... Yes, We could support a lot more battery, but what we have is working good now... We mostly use power in the day, when there is lots of sun, and basically using straight off of the solar, When we do have high loads like Cooktop or AC it does dip into the battery a bit, but it quickly recharges. The amount of battery we have is nicely matched I think, it really just needs to get us through the nights and through weeks of rain, but our demand goes down during the nights and in rain 😁 But yeah, If I find another good deal on batteries, I would maybe double it for fun, 10kW total.
I am going to add heating to my batteries and control the heating with an arduino. What components did you use with the arduino (shields)? Can you give any details on the arduino sketch you made?
Would it not be easier to remove the watch?
Yup, that's the joke...
Can you suggest on a heat pad to use. I have 8 180ah Calb, they will be below Roadtrek camper living space floor, in a metal battery box 7'' 1/4 x 22'' 3/4 x 13'' deep . I Am thinking of insulating the outside of box with 1/2 '' foul foam. The temps here in mid east (Delaware) not like yours but I want to be ready.
Those are exactly the batteries I have... It is going to depend on how you'll be powering it... A 400 watt 12 volt silicone heating pad will pull about 40 amps. A 200 Watt 12 volts pad, is likely sufficient. Powering it off of 12 volts is an uphill battle, especially in winter with the solar production being so low. If you will have the option to plug into the grid, there are lots of 110 volt heater pads available too. Look up Kenovo heaters on eBay, they make many for the 3D printing market in many different flavors.
Excellent video! As a fellow Canadian I am struggling with how to solve the heating issue of Lithium. Near the end of this video you say you would be using your excess solar to power the heater. Are you able to explain or do you have a video on how you used the solar panels to power the heating element. My offgrid cabin has 2000+ watts of solar. The array is wired in series then into a Schneider MPPT charge controller. As a result, the voltage to the controller is approx 150 volts DC. So this voltage would be too high for the 12 volt heat pads etc. Any suggestions?
Use a 120 volt heater pad...?
@@Everlanders 120 volt AC pad? or do the make 120 volt DC units?
it won't matter, resistive heater pads don't care if it's AC or DC
I have the same batteries and setup.
Wow, your vids kinda make by brain spin. You've got skiiiiiilzzzzz. So...explain this to me like I'm 5. I've got a lithium bank I want to heat. Best/newbie solution?
That is going to depend largely on the mass you need to heat. The 400 watt heater pad I used was probably two times bigger than I needed. It pulls 40 amps and heats up a bit too quick and then the controller cycles on and off, it would be better with a more gentle heat.
That's all too complicated for me and usually complicated things break down or are unreliable when your out in the middle of nowhere in your camper. I think my solution will be a much smaller heating pad with thicker aluminum in hopes to have something I can just turn on with constant current that will heat the aluminum plate around 25 Celsius maximum. Place a proper thermometer at the top of the cells and just let her run for an hour or so until the batteries reach 20C before turning on the charge controller on.
Perfect plan.
Does the electrodacus shut down charging when it's too cold? If not, what's your solution to that?
Yes, it has minimal and maximum temperature thresholds that the user can change from the default suggested settings!
Question about temperature let's say it's 0 degree C I imagine discharging the battery will warm up the cells to hopefully a temperature that will safely accept charge. How do you calculate such rate of heating?
No, our Lithium (LiPoFe4) is immune to self-heating at the currents we're subjecting them to - We've since upgraded to 20 cells, and our suggested discharge rate before they start heating is 20,000 amps 😮
@@Everlanders WOW shit really?!?!? That's helpful to know mate. Thanks for replying! I like that gel pad setup 👌
Yeah, It's a Beast now - The Video is here: czcams.com/video/2uYENzaDBY4/video.html
Are there lithium battery heater kits available? Perhaps in the Marine market? VERY good video!
Not that I've seen, but this is a very simple DIY project anyway.
Electric Battery Blanket.
Excellent!
Awesome videos. Anyway you can post your sketch?
As I said, it is largely based on Adafruit's Sous Vide Controller Sketch. learn.adafruit.com/sous-vide-powered-by-arduino-the-sous-viduino?view=all
Hows this held up long term. I did something similar with heat mats
It worked well, but now that we're traveling in the rig full-time it's not needed as it's inside our living space and thus kept at a comfortable temperature all the time anyway.
Impressive
Ok I'm not even a sophomore more like kindergarten in my knowledge
I wonder how many of us have those parts just "laying around". I know I don't
I do.. was funny when he said that as i just busted mine out of closet and realized its 120 too
Just to be clear, mine is 12 volts...
Are you still happy with the heater setup? Thought you mentioned the heater draws 400w. To which heater were you referring?
Yes, Super Happy. We're crossing over into Mexico now, so not really needed as much as when we were in Canada.
@@Everlanders yah, I'm in Portland and have wondered if a heater is warranted given it doesn't drop below 0 very many days/year.
Probably not needed then.
Do you have a web link to the IDE code and pinout?
Great video BTW.
I just used the Adafruit sous vide example code.
Any thoughts on going 24 volt and using a Tesla battery?
Love it... We went 12 Volt because so many RV systems are already 12 Volt and then we don't need to run converters.
@@Everlanders I've been binge watching a number of channels and Will Prowse makes a good case for the 24 volt Tesla batteries but I'm inclined to stick with 12 volt myself for simplicity.
@@YhAFbwts Don't go 24v tesla battery for Rv living, the battery chemistry dictates the voltage for the 21700 cells slightly differently than LFP chemistry, so all your charging / discharging regimes don't match up and you either waste available capacity or risk over charging them. Then there's the unstableness of the chemistry risk.. Those 21700 WILL catch on fire and runaway if you cock something up.. LFP's wont.
3v dc÷10b=300uv
Totally makes sense! Thanks for sharing!
what batteries are you using?
czcams.com/video/ZFsXcoLl6Kc/video.html
Are they CA180FI?
Yes
4S2P = 360Ah
Thanks! Do you mind disclosing what you paid per cell?
1.5uv=0.0015v
Agreed, but what does it all mean? Not sure what you are Implying.
Hahahahahahahahhahahah great vid but why not just take the watch off....wtf rotflmfao
I can't get the ring off, which is why I tape over it. I hoped that bit would make someone laugh! You're the first to notice / post a comment! 10 bonus points for you!
@@Everlanders Ya forgot the safety squints. Must be something about Canada ;-) -- AvE uses the same pink tape over his ring, which hasn't come off either.
You're to the conspiracy theory, that AvE and Jason are related. :)