Piper Wing Spars Explained
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2018
- Watch this video to learn more about Piper wing spars.
Airframe Components
Wing & Control Surface Repair
www.airframecomponents.com
260-347-0807
Kendallville, Indiana U.S.A.
Videos by Midwest Film Factory Inc.
Did business with Airframe components last year (new aileron). Drove out to their shop and got a full tour. Great shop, good people.
And as a PA28R owner, I'm grateful for them taking the time to have produced this video!
Have done business with Airframe Components. I have nothing but good things to say about them. Excellent communication, excellent service, excellent craftsmanship, and pleasant people the whole way through.
I've never wiggled a wing on pre-flight... I definitely will be from now on!
I was thinking the same, I usually wiggle up and down but never side to side
Thank you for taking the time to post these videos. I really enjoy learning more about the planes that I fly.
Thanks for the video! Good information and this stresses the importance of a good preflight. Part of the preflight when I learned to fly in a Cherokee 140 was rocking the wing tips from side to side up and down as the elevator and vertical stabilizer. Climbed into a C-172 then taxied to the end of the runway for takeoff. In checking trim for takeoff setting I returned to the FBO to report a nose up stuck trim. Trim wheel would not budge. The owner asked "when did you discover that?" and I replied "pre-takoff check". It happens guys and gals.
A+ Professional presentation.... very educational!
Thank you
This video was very well done. The explanation is clear, concise, and valuable to any pilot. Thank you!
Great video and I must say that this company is A+, top notch. This man stands behind his merchandise, if there’s a problem with something you have ordered he will make it right. It was a pleasure doing business with you a few months ago and I will do business with you again in the future.
Excellent, excellent, excellent! This something every Piper owner or pilot should see.
Nice job. I started to restore a 1972 piper arrow and removed the wings. I’ll be calling you for parts and advice. Your knowledge will save lives...thank you
Very specialised work,thank you for a most informative video.
I love that the center spar carries the weight of the airplane at 3Gs but still light enough to pick up and throw into place. Amazing engineering.
the bolts that attach the spars also carry the weight at 3G, and they are even lighter and easier to pick up ;)
Great video. I’m a long time PA28 and PARO user/owner. I’ve always done the wiggle test at the end of the wing. I just didn’t know exactly what was worn if it moved. Thanks again.
Excellent presentation and very informative! Thank you for making and posting this video.
Note-to-Self: add checking the wing for fore and aft movement to your preflight checklist!
Peace.
Fantastic!! Great overview of how a PA28 wing connects to the main fuseulage.
Very educational very well presented and fascinating, for sure I shall be making these checks in my oncoming sorties.. Thank you for sharing these structural points with everyone.
Thanks for the info! Was looking for a good explanation of the piper wing spars after an accident that I read about recently...
Excellent videos. Thank you for the opportunity to learn.
Very well done demonstration and explanation.
Fascinating! I had no idea that airplanes could be structurally rebuilt when necessary.
Excellent and informative video.Thank you.
Went through a T-Storm with my CFI in the late 90's, Heavy turbulence to say the least, I was waiting for the wings to break, but now I clearly see why that didn't happen, Great job Piper engineers have done,,,,(BTW) I saw a Cessna caravan Ad on this video )
Super interesting! Thank you for posting!
Wow, this was a great video.
Awesome. Thanks for showing us the real thing
Thanks for the nice presentation!
Excellent presentation from an obvious professional. What is also obvious is that these less-than desirable main spar/fittings are still allowed to fly without a significant AD to the a) main spar and b) the minimal structural integrity of the spar attachment design! Torquing forces on that wing attachment can be enormous (turbulence/shear/maneuvering/fatigue) and what is plainly visible is the sub optimal inserted depth of attachment to the fuselage cross member. All the load, torque, stress, and fatigue is focused on just 10 - 12" of the main spar and cross member end! FAA should have examined this in greater detail years ago. Many A&Ps have brought up considerable questions regarding the stress loads and fatigue for years. Note that Mooney, Commander AC11's, Beech wings don't fall off or "show play"! What a joke for us on the ground; not for those caught in a Piper with a failing main spar/wing connection. Shame on the FAA for this.
Wow! Awesome work
Absolutely useful video
GREAT EXPLAINATION. thanks
Great video!
Great Videos! Thanks!
Thanks, awesome video!
Very helpful presentation
thanks\
Thanks for the nice informative video.
great video..
Great video thanks.
A&P and private pilot. guys in A&P school should se these! Working heavy sheet metal at the commercial level this is great info!
Thanks for posting this video. Was curious concerning Piper Aircraft wings breaking off in flight, we recently had one tragic incident here in Florida where both Student Pilot and CFI were killed! 😔
Embry-Riddle?
Not only a CFI but a DPE. Designated Pilot Examiners are FAA employees and once an FAA employees perishes in an accident, the FAA usually acts pretty fast as far as AD's. We have a PA28R-201 and we're waiting day by day for the AD to check the main spar.
Nacho Miranda and yes that was the embry accident
Jeremy Bass oh wow I had no idea
chris yanaros I worked at piper Vero beach factory and I fabricated the wing walks and inboard leading edges for the past year. The embry riddle accident was due to excess stress put on the aircraft in prior flights
Thanks for that great video. Our flight school has 7 pa 28 180 Glad to know you are out there
All the best neal. Cfi a&p flight fast track Punta Gorda Fla
Greetings! I'm a volunteer at the Champaign Aviation Museum in Urbana, Ohio, and I've made some of the wing spar components for our B-17G project. Scale is a "little bit" bigger, but the principles are every bit as valid. I also have fond memories of taking flight training at Ogden, Utah during my Air Force service in a Cherokee four-seat (until instructor time jumped from $7/hr to $25/hr).
Kudos to the student pilot. Probably saved lives
"excessive play". To say the least! Makes you want to grab every wing you come across.
no joke...pretty eye opening
When I was flying back in the late 70's and early 80's, I had been taught to 'grab the wing and give it a good shake.' I didn't really understand why. Between the ERU incident and this video, I am beginning to understand a lot more clearly.
and it was a student that picked it up, good on him, but id expect a lot higher standard of aircraft scrinty from the owner/flight school, and they had missed that very important part. the end of that wing would be flopping around like a cock in a sock
I remember one of my instructors laughing at me when I grabbed to wing and pumped it up and down on a preflight... that was a pa28... instructors are not always right either.
You should do that anyways.
Great tutorial, with regards to the forward attach fittings and other components with dissimilar metals, how is corrosion(I.e. steel on aluminum)dealt with upon inspection? Thank you.
Curious about the wing fore and aft play. What damage was done to the main spar as that's held by 18 bolts. I was reading up on the Arrow in FLA that stripped a wing and was a fore and aft play a part that fatigued the main spar?
Nice presentation. Although I have respect for piper it was after I saw a wing removed that I was surprised at how little attachment surface is in the center spar attachment
Super duper entertainment, like watching Dead Pool aft, forward, mid-drift, port, starboard and aft again with play amidst steel plates.
now I know .good video
That is interesting. What becomes the sacrificial part now that the fitting and bolt are both steel? The structural repair manual should definitely have an inspection interval for the forward wing fitting. Are the location of those fitting done in a jig? Are the forward and aft fitting attach bolts a full clamp up or do the fittings float? The center spare is a full clamp-up joint. I'm really interested in seeing more details. Thanks for the video.
I earned my A&P in 1965, contemporary with these airplanes. Every time I see one of these very informative videos I thank my lucky stars that 1. I went straight to work for an airline and skipped the tinny structures of G.A., and 2. I got into systems/avionics and left the structural work to people braver and better qualified than myself. If I had to do an annual on any vintage light plane I would not be willing to sign off anything until I had stripped all structure to the level of bare spars and ribs you see here. How does anybody make a living at this?
Maybe this is why annual costs so much because the APs are over cautious since they don't know crud about structures.
I think you're being a little unkind. I'm not an AP, but I was a structures DER for a decade or so. I'd be hesitant about signing off what I hadn't seen, particularly in GA (I come from the airline world).
Roy,in a 20-30 year old plane which wing is stronger metal vs nonmetal-thanks for the detail,informative presentation.
That jet sound clip in the intro. Rest In Peace headphone users. Eardrums has left the chat.
The guys at the FBO used to joke about me grabbing wings and stabs, and rocking them back and forth, checking for looseness back in the 1980's. You just never know though, it may save your life one day. Cessnas, Pipers, Beech, it doesn't matter, I check them all. Just a firm grip, feeling for looseness, or extensive oil canning, will tell you a lot!!!
Even building my experimental. I am completely amazed and terrified about the fact that theres just not that material holding the wing to the fuselage....the strength of that material is major but the visual is like woah....theres gonna be ALOT of force going to that spar attachment point specifically.
That was very informative. But, how did the bushing fall out with the bolt still in place?
Good question. I wondered the same thing. Kinda gives me shivers, since I spent many hours flying those back in the late seventies and eighties.
What of Cessna tailplanes, some flex and skins pant as though a spar has broke. A recent aircraft we operated one tail plane pants and flexes, the other is rigid. And some aircraft you can see where the skin has pulled close to the fuselage.
The presenter is a well-spoken gentleman, but may I point out that at 2:48 he mentioned the tensile strength of the bolts holding the wing spar. Well, those bolts holding the spar are not working in a tensile mode but in a shearing mode, with the top flange of the beam spar working in compression while the lower flange operating in great tension, while both joints are operating in a shear mode with the web providing the " couple"
To get a much stronger spar the lower flange and associated tapered web should be made longer to extend further into the box and so the lower holes would be much further inside the box where the leverage of the longer lower spar at its inner end would exert a downward force component in the box. There would not need to drill holes where they appear with the system as is, as those ten holes are reducing the tensile strength of the lower flange. Fewer holes deep inside the box would be enough as with making the lower flange longer into the mounting box, there is a different mode of operation on that spar.
as an A&P with IA plus PE certificate and airvrft designer my susjection is to add 4130 steel plates lower spar cap to pickup same holes as now used and extend plate ut into wing 6 inches picng up rivet pattern and replaceing with high shear bolts ,similr to beech 18 mod of several years past.it could be done quite fast and adds tremendous safety
daffidavit Mooney does have a continuous spar wingtip to wingtip.
Thanks Scott
Very informative sir. I have a question, what do you think of the design and structural integrity of the piper wing spar?
wing spar is weeak and mre failure wll occur .no wy to inspect s ar fitting wo rmoving wings .piper is staling on this issue
The bushing had fallen out which precipitated a wiggle woggle condition.
😂
What happened to the wired NUT?
The spar tenon that bolts to the carrier is waaay shorter than expected. Why wouldn’t it be designed longer which would apply less leverage?
would like to see a picture of the lower wing attach fitting that failed on the Embry Riddle Airplane..
I think it was a failure through the wing spar that inserts into the carry through along the outboard bolt holes. Not sure if top, bottom or both.
Of the Ibeam is stressed at the bend from wear or g’s would it require a whole new wing?
Its called Dihedral wing
That’s scary to think this supports the weight of the aircraft especially in turbulence. All of these tiny little aluminum brackets and the main spar don’t look all that stout to begin with. But it works.
What about the spar-breaks at Saratoga? I want to buy one, but have heard about accidents concerning weak spars.
I own a 1968 Piper Cherokee 235. I was told sometimes the wing spars rust and when that happens the plane is done. Not worth fixing. Is that true and how often does that happen? Thank you.
Do you have any comments about the uneven dihedral, in the PA 28 ? The right wing being at a greater angle for P factor correction as I recall. I can't find anything on the net about it. But it was explained in the Piper student books I had years ago. Thank you. And great videos.
Are you sure it is the dihedral that was uneven? Typically, I see the engine cocked off the centerline to account for the differential thrust of both sides. I'd be surprised if they weren't symmetrical in order to account for P Factor. Sounds interesting though.
@@nicholasboscaino6262 Yes the dihedral for shore. My 1976 Piper course books made a point about this in the opening chapters. I no longer have them. I would like to review them again. The Airframe Components man in the video might know. I hope he will see this and comment.
Also; I suspect the reason for this is that in the test phase of PA28, in the late 50s, the track was not straight while the inclinometer was reading true, and when the track was straight the inclinometer was off level.
Gracias, me quedo como la callampa👍
How much are puper fliers gonna have to pay to comply with the air worthiness directive getting ready to drop?
Why are there large holes in the ribs of the wing...does it maybe weaken the structure than a plain solid rod
One more question regarding the forward attach fitting. Is there only one bolt and is that adequate?
one bolt is good as alll oads are taken by main spar
Fantastic video. Can you explain how the bushing fell out of the forward attach fitting? (8:10). I watched this part several times but still don't understand how this part works or what failed. My brother works at a flight school that has a fleet of Cherokees. Thank you.
Educated guess here-the only way I see that they could "fall out" would be during installation of the thru bolt, the bolt could hit the face of the bearing and inadvertently drive it out like a punch tool.
@@jusaguy9849 Thanks for the info.
Is this simillar to the pa-31 piper as well
I’ve seen some rust on the webbing of the spar carry through on the front under the carpet. Is that normal to see? The rest of the plane was in very good shape but that front webbing had a lot of rust on it.
I was never taught to wiggle a wing on my 1967 PA 28 180. Had two instructors. Fired the first one after many useless hours. This is before the tragedy requiring the AD.
do u have port aileron for my 1989 PA28-161 (mine was damaged from hit and run incident ). also required is interior structure (parallel to wing) near the feet found corroded).Thx
if you fail the AD on the wing spar is it a part that can be fixed
6/12/2020
I like your videos, but please, please, at the beginning of each video, state the date. Now, when replacing a wing spar on a PA28, might it become necessary to replace the fuselage bulkhead to which the spar attaches? In other words, can the bulkhead wear so much that it would need replacing?
Thank you.
Your date form, is incorrect, small unit (day) then larger unit (month) then largest unit (year). Some other parts of the world invert it so largest, then smaller, then smallest i.e. 2020/6/12 Hope that helps.
Changing the front plate (for corrosion), means having the wing dismounted from the aircraft, right?
I hope this isn't a stupid question! If it is then it wouldn't be the first time I asked one!
Roy was saying that the new front attach point has changed from aluminum to steel. What prevents galvanic action between the steel and the aluminum? Any moisture would act like an electrolyte wouldn't it?
Two more questions sir. 1 Which general aviation four seater single engine airplane has the best/strongest wing spar and 2. which manufacturer makes wing spar inspection visible and easy? Thank you for the info as it helps me to understand and learn.
p756 of the strutted Cessna wing designs there has never been a wing spar failure
You swithed fore and aft, but otherwise great presentation, just saved me a ton of money discocered plane I ws looking at had wing wobble
They are less beefy than I expected. I thought the wings would have at least an one foot extension that met up with a one foot extension going into the wing for added strength. They would overlap and connect with bolts.
How does the metal fatigue work on something like that? Seems like a LOT of stress to place essentially on 1 i-beam (take-off weights, plus g-loads). Worrisome for something in use for half a century.
At 6:34 he shows the hardware protruding through the “forward attach bolt hole”. The hole is approx 3-4x the size of the bolt diameter. Is that from wear or does a bushing or something go in there to reduce the internal diameter???? If the wing bolt blew the hole out that far its amazing the nut didnt slip through.
Seems like the main spar I beam attachment to the wing gave up in the N106ER Embry Riddle Piper Arrow plane crash scenario. I always thought wings are attached with a solidd beam that run through the fuselage like a car frame chasis with the wheel axel, not just bolted down between them. What a design flaw. You never see a car chasis frame detach from the wheel axle because it's attachedd very securely like as if they're one part together, not just bolted down through the wing carry through 12 inch I beam with the fuselage main spar beam. Wings and fuselage must be attached in that way also.
Are their Wing Spar potential problems like the Cessna 210's Wing Spars (Australia fatalities) have fairly commonly.
12/28/2019
Very nice presentation. I compute $20,000 to remedy the issue of the wing spar bar. You say?
Crazy how little material is holding the wings to the center piece!
Hire that student, that's a wiggle test that may have saved a life; one of the bigger schools had a wing depart one of their Arrows in the circuit not long ago.
This guy could play Darth Vader with ease lol. JK. Great video I learned a lot. Thank you sir.
At 2:50 minutes you mention that the AN176 bots have a tensile strength of 125000 psi per bolt (8 and 10 bolts, etc); I would like to point out to you that the 125000 psi tensile strength is the bolt mechanical property and not its load carrying capacity.
The bolt carrying capacity has to do with the product of the bolt area and the tensile strength.
A high strength #8 screw can have the same tensile strength as a 1/2" bolt or for that matter of any diameter.
However it gets more complicated than that, if a bolt is subjected to combined bending and tensile loads and/or shear.
markspc1 Second semester strength of materials.
Doesnt really matter. It's not actually the correct number as the bolts are oriented to be loaded in three sheer direction
Great and informational video. One suggestion, consider a high pass filter on the audio. No need to sound like Rush Limbaugh on a drag strip.
When would you consider a piper arrow's air-frame too old or close to? I am looking at one for sale with 8,142 TT. 2002. Any thoughts ?
That's almost 500hrs/yr. If it was a regular cross country cruiser I'd feel a lot better than if it was a flight school trainer with thousands of rookie landings on it's airframe. If the maintenance/accident logs are spotless, and it's only had one- MAYBE two- owners, and you're ready to pull the trigger...then I'd pay for a detailed inspection. They almost always find enough minor stuff to negotiate the final price down- enough to cover their costs. If it's perfect, then you have that piece of mind at 8,000ft!
@@jck9590 Partial gear collapse in 2010.
www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/31919433/2002-piper-arrow-iii
This video was created after the Embry rIddle crash where a wing came off a Piper 28 and the NTSB said it was due to metal fatigue. And yet no mention of that at all. Why would that be?
Probably a reply to a direct question about the wings construction and attach point design. I learned in a PA28-140 and can attest that not all my landings were nice and smooth plus the 140 was the trainer until the Tomahawk came out. later they sold a version of the Archer as the Cadet for training after the Tomahawk ceased production. Remember that these airframes have quite a few hours on them and if used as trainers probably a lot more than a plane of the same make and model but flown for pleasure only..
Very nice presentation. Not much holding the wing on.
I believe there are shims in the upper spars on one side..is anyone familiar with this what side ? Front or back side
Never understand why safety critical components are so flimsy. What extra weight would be incurred if these plates were twice as thick? Certainly lighter than flying with spats for example. Rather leave those on the ground.
The loads induced on these components would also increase if the airframe was heavier. Piper considers both of these things.
True the loads just get transferred somewhere else, so where do you stop strengthening.
Once the know the loads that will be exerted from flight they probably have a weight "budget" if you will, and building the aircraft without creating a lead airplane is a compromise between strength required, ease of manufacturing, assembly, cost, and weight. Building it is probably a pretty interesting balance to make all the components comfortably more than "safe enough" without compromising the weight
1. It has to be lite enough to fly.
2. It has to be cheap enough to be brought.
3. It has to be cheap enough to be worked on.
4. It has to be simple enough to understand by one guy.
5. It is called General Aviation for a reason.
The missing bushing would have been engineered to spread the load enough to transfer it from the steel bolt into the aluminum fitting without damaging the aluminum. The problem was not that the fitting was made of aluminum, the problem is that some jackass assembled it without that bushing.
Hi. Can I ask how the bushing fell out on the forward attach point on the Piper wing? I would say it was never installed? That would be my observation? Im just bustin your balls, Good video for sure. New aircraft mechanics should be watching this stuff and sadly to say even some mechanics I know with 20 years experience should be watching? Take care. Hawk out!!
Great video but this looks like a port/left wing or am I missing something?
With due respect, you're missing something. Look at 5:37 to see the complete cross-section with flap mounting points. Camera lens does slightly distort foreground.