The Deeper Meaning of the SLOW BLADE... (Dune 2)
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- #fantasy #writing #fremen
Dune’s worldbuilding is SOO integrated with everything the story is about, from the sandworms to the powers of the Bene Gesserit to the feud between House Atreides and House Harkonnen.
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0:00 - Dune's worldbuilding elements
5:33 - (Part 2 Spoilers) - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Herbert really nailed this theme and Villenueve really understood it.
At first I was shocked by the scene where Paul says they will win by "being Harkonnen", but that scene shows how much herbert understands this character and how much Paul himself is conscious of his descent and his embracing of the Harkonnen way.
@henriquesouza8704 I really loved that section in the movie. Was right at the part where Paul could finally see what he needed to do, and you could tell seeing the future changed him from the first half of the movie.
@@styx15 dennis really created a gem here. We watched history being made in the movies.
What I love about Dune is the theme of control is contrastrd by not just "letting loose" or giving into impulses but actual lack of control. Paul is tormented by inevitability, the fact that he physically is the result of generations of genetic planning and he is on a path set for him. After he drinks the Water of Life, he realizes that knowing the future does not allow you to avoid it. The Bene Gesserit have such perfect control of their bodies that they can determine the sex of their children! Yet the very person who becomes the Kwisatz Haderach is one they cannot control, and the religion they seeded in Fremen culture is the very thing that makes them uncontrollable. The story literally describes how a fake prophecy fulfills itself while the main character tries desperately to avoid it! Truly a genre-defining story...
I heard that there is a conversation going on about whether Paul morally should take up the mantle of a Messianic figure, or perhaps the nature of power. He sees a vision of what will happen if he goes south - millions starving, horror. I think Stilgar says to Paul that if he does go south he will gain control, and he replies, 'no, I will lose it. ' He fears the person he will become if he accepts the adulation of millions. But at the end of the film he does accept it. And it seems that that is already causing him to lose control.
When you mentioned the Roman's and the Harkonnaen's it's very ironic to me that the Romans were also famously disciplined when it came to their legions. They would literally march towards the enemy in perfect silence because it was scarier that way.
When one looks at Roman history, they very often employed both of these angles towards power.
"Disciplined and silent" are perfect descriptors of the Harkonnen troopers we see in both movies, as well - in the ambush at Arrakeen they are soundless until the alarm is raised and even then only seem to vocalize once they're into melee, and in the opening of Pt. 2 they're drifting about on their silent jetpacks and only start speaking when they're attacked to do tactical coordination
There's a huge discrepancy between how the Romans loved to present themselves, their stoic values, the silent cohort listening for the centurions' orders, and the archeologic evidence of widespread hedonistic practices.
One thing I think illustrates that well is we portray Nero softly playing a lyre but there is overwhelming evidence his favorite instruments were the bagpipes.
“There are no sides”
The Vomitorium aren't actually places for the Romans to vomit but just the place they leave stadiums from
Was also going to add that. But at least the myth fits into the perception of Roman indulgence
So they're 'vomiting' out of the stadiums? Is that why it's called vomitorium?
@@senseishu937 "vomit" in latin just means "to expel" and the vomitoriums are wide openings for the attendees of the colosseums to expel from (to enter) and expel out (to exit)
All these years I thought it's a room that Roman's built soley to vomit. And I bought it hook, line @ sinker till NOW
@@rockhuerta honestly that would not have been the craziest shit the romans had done.
one of my favorite lines from the beginning of the book is "that which submits, rules" and I think you did an excellent job highlighting how that theme plays out across the entire story. In the Dune universe, the best way to get accomplish your goals isn't to push hard and wrangle the universe into doing what you want. Instead you figure out what the world is already doing, and figure out how to make that do the work for you. And to do that, you need self control. Another example is how Paul shuts off the Thopter in the sandstorm and glides on the wind, rather than trying to force his way through with powered flight (the movie's addition of the vision of Jamis saying "we must move with the flow" is incredible).
And you're right that the Houses do a great job of demonstrating these two ways of doing things. A description from the book that stuck with me is that the Baron's hands are always fiddling with something, that he physically cannot force himself to be still. But we see time and again that self control is the Atraides strongsuit. A great example is the scene with the hunter-seeker, where Paul has to be completely still or he'll literally die.
Great video, and it's awesome to see how much the people behind the movie clearly understood the themes in the source material.
"that which submits, rules" also comes into play VERY heavily in the later books - the Bene Gesserit, who proclaim that they exist 'only to serve' (ie, they are an order that submits to the rule of the emperor) are really the truest power and most the influencial body there is in the Dune universe. The Bene Gesserit are the real pullers of the strings across the imperium, manipulating bloodlines, planning centuries in advance, and orchestrating holy wars to further their goals, all with ENDLESS backups and alternatives to ensure that they ALWAYS end up on top
It's a Taoist perspective.
What I loved about this movie was that simply by giving Chani depth as a character that she didn’t have in the book, it opened the story up in so many ways. Just on a basic emotional level, it made me care so much more about her and the romance (and by extension Paul) and the Fremen.
But it also allowed her to serve narratively in new ways. In the book Stilgar is the main character giving voice to the Fremen; by developing Chani’s character Villeneuve basically made the Fremen as a whole more complex because he could now have two Fremen voices arguing for different things. I’m excited that this might carry over if they do a third movie, where there would be even higher stakes for her representing the faction of Fremen that don’t buy into Paul’s mythology.
And finally, the development of Chani as a character really casts into stark relief how sinister what the Bene Gesserit and Jessica are doing with the Fremen. In the book, Paul and Jessica pretty much just win over Stilgar and Chani, and it ends up feeling a bit like maybe it’s okay that Jessica is manipulating them using these embedded beliefs, because they want to believe. Having a narratively strong Fremen voice objecting to that deepens a theme that Herbert was already developing.
Making Chani a more complex character improves so many things about the story that it makes me retroactively frustrated with Herbert for missing the opportunity to do it himself.
Wow… just wow. I already had an immense respect for Dune and its worldbuilding but you just brought my respect for it a level higher.
I find Paul’s shift in character after seeing the future rather jarring, but I also think that the creators of the movie put the audience in the position of Chani, we’re watching this person we’ve come to care for and suddenly he’s different and we don’t know him the way we used to, I found the theatre reacting to what was happening in the same way chani did. And the movie ends on Chani, not Paul. I haven’t read the books so I don’t really know where things are going or why Paul is doing what he is, but I found those narrative choices interesting
Its his becoming. He had no choice.
In the north he was accepted as himself. There was harmony between those who did and didn't believe he was something more Devine.
In the south, he couldn't be himself. He needed to seize total power, or he would tear the society in half.
Imagine half of 16th century Europe deciding you are christ reborn, and half deciding you are a false prophet. It would be a bloodbath.
He traded all his future choices for the power he could acquire from the southern tribes. Now he needs to meet that insane expectation... both because half measures will get dune stomped by other galactic powers, and because half measures will cause a fremann implosion.
@@matthewspencer2094 fascinating insight. Thank you!
Villenueve was a fan first, then he was the director and it shows. Wild to think we actually got a good adaptation of this series, it almost feels impossible.
This is like a syzygy, an aligning of planets, that a fan of Dune is also a respected director that makes money for the companies that they trusted in him.
After Paul drinks the Water of Life and sees all possible futures (which, in universe, isn’t magic, it’s just a mind expanded enough to do millions of advanced calculations) he says he sees a “narrow path through” in which the human race can survive. So he’s again carefully calculating and controlling what he’s doing to make sure it goes a specific way. Even when he’s going maximalist/Harkonnen, he’s still primarily trying to do the correct, calculated thing.
From what I understand about Frank Herbert, it sounds like he was all about the power of the human mind and control over it. Many of Dune’s world building elements can be tied back to that theme. The spice allows the brain to function at its maximum potential (at a cost), there are no computers because “though shalt not make a computer in the image of a human mind,” etc.
Great to see you tackling Dune. Seems like it prioritizes lore, worldbuilding, and allegory more than other subjects on the channel, and usual character-based analysis may not work as well.
Dune worldbuilding is one of if not the best worldbuilding I've seen in any story. Herbert was able to tie in human history and the interactions of cultures and utilized it in a way that is simply fascinating.
Like how the fremen language loans a few Arabic words (and how they're obviously inspired by the Bedouin Arabs), how the name for emperor in dune is padishah, the ancient Persian word for king of kings.
The politics of the imperium and how they're modeled not only on feudal societies with there being houses and all but specifically the Holy Roman Empire, which was notorious for having emperors that in theory ruled over the empire but in practice had little power over controlling what the nobles and houses in the empire wanted to do (for example houses in the empire did go to war on several occasions, just like the atreides and harkonnens).
The Baron's first name being Vladimir? Loaned from Russian, and how the atreides themselves claim to descend from the legendary Greek figure Agamemnon. There's so much and this is just scratching the surface. Herbert's worldbuilding really is unmatched. I haven't even gotten into the religion, which is needs a whole analysis on its own 😂
Sorry but you are confusing Paul with Leto II from Children of Dune and God Emperor. Paul is not motivated by the survival of humanity. He is motivated both by his fight against the Harkonnens and by his desire to avoid his terrible purpose, the Jihad (or the Holy War in the film) that he sees throughout the first novel. He wants to avoid this Holy war but he refuses to follow the paths that would allow him to avoid it and which would involve renouncing his revenge against the Harkonnens. He ends up following the path that leads to the Jihad because it is the one that gives him the Desert power by which he defeats the Harkonnens. But it's a tragedy and a moral failure that has nothing to do with the survival of humanity (Paul actually rejects the Golden path, if that's what you're talking about as I presume).
@@natzbarney4504yes at this point he sees how humanity has stagnated and there is a lot about the jihad being tied to a Jungian human group subconscious desire to react against that and genetic control by groups like the Bene Gesserit, but he still is choosing paths that he hopes his loved ones and some Fremen survive and he can hopefully contain the jihad. He’s getting big picture but not all long term history options, although he has enough to see he has already likely doomed their society to the jihad by not heeding his earlier premonitions about what could happen if he pursued vengeance through the Fremen
... the 'voice thing'. Less magic, more psychology. It's like when she changes the shape of her palm to pick the palm lock. They can warp themselves to fit any lock, even psychological ones.
Right, like imagine if someone could pitch and tune their voice exactly how your mother's voice sounds when she's mad and ordering you to do something. But the sci-fi equivalent 😂. Your body moves to do it without even thinking
@@kirani111 lol, that sounds absolutely terrifying. Can you imagine defending yourself against someone trying to kill you, and then your dad's voice comes out of them.
"DROP THE KNIFE"
"Dad?-" ☠️
@@thegodplace7887 wouldn't even think twice, knife is no longer in my hand 💀
Nope, that's magic. You can't just control random people with your voice.
That is just straight up magic.
@@tjarkschweizer yeah it's pushing psychology to extraordinary levels but it's like science fantasy. Not necessarily possible in the way we imagined it, but possible...maybe.🤔
oh no I've been compelled to subscribe 😱
Schnee is known for his mastery of The Voice
@@LuisSierra42Some master the way of the slow blade, others master the way of the 4 turning chairs
One other theme hit on in the world-building is the power of the mind, not the power of technology. Herbert believed that all technology comes with a piece of counter-technology (one person invents arrows, another invents armor; one person invents swords, another shields), which is why this world feels medieval despite being sci-fi. It's also why we don't see great houses build things like the Death Star: they have the technology, but there would be no point, because real power comes from controlling the guy who designs the Death Star and the guy who controls it (hence why Rogue One feels like a battle of wills rather than a battle of science), not from actually having a Death Star. That's why all the characters have no mechanical or genetic enhancements but instead train their minds, bodies and charisma.
Herbert also believed that everything comes at a cost. The Fremen are strong because they live in a harsh desert, and in the books the Atreides are described as weak because they live on a comfortable world.
The last thing Herbert hits on is economics, specifically the law of scarcity (an economic term saying that if there is an item that is valuable, the desire for it will always exceed the actual amount available, and so it is inevitable that a hierarchy will form around this scarce resource), which is why Dune is so important, because it is the only place in the universe you can find spice. The reason that this world has absolute monarchs is because votes and even weapons don't matter, he who controls the spice controls the universe. Herbert believed that this is where power came from, not from democracy or anything like that.
If you want more info, watch Pilgrim's Pass czcams.com/video/Fp1bYuJyLfY/video.html
I love Pilgrim's Pass! Great to see a reference to the channel in the wild
The most interesting thing in Dune in my opinion was the great sandworms. Literal gods that represent the power of the Fremen; with control comes power. But also the fact of how they show the divinity of the land; the hostility of the desert, the steps necessary in order to either survive and thrive or deprived and die (no pun intended), and most of all the message "The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve. But a reality to experience. A process that cannot be understood by stopping it. We must move with the flow of the process. We must join it. We must flow with it"
Or it could be I like the sandworms CAUSE THEY'RE FUCKING BADASS
This also comes thru with the mentats in the books. They have to train and control themselves to become the human computers they are. If I were a lil crazy I could argue that Yueh was able to be broken because he was conditioned rather than taught self control
Well, Yueh was a member of the Suk medical school, not necessarily a mentat, but your point still stands
I also loved how this translated into vehicle design, if you look at the Atreides ornithopters, starships, and sandcrawlers they all feel very refined and perfected, all the Harkonnen stuff on the other hand is very bulbous and uncontrolled in design like they just tacked on whatever worked and called it a day.
I've been reading to help me get to sleep since I was in jr high school. I read this whole series, the 6 books written by Frank Herbert, back in early high school in the late 1980s. I've re-read it three times now over my life. I keep finding more and more useful lessons from it. "Control" was one of the first. The potential of humanity was the latest.
Can you elaborate on that latest idea?
@@schnee1 First off, there is the exploration of control and discipline, as you mentioned, but through the books, it explores where that heads. A person can gain skills through that control and disciple that those who do not have it cannot conceive of or understand. From those skills, they can overcome adversity and become more confident, and develop themselves into more than just what they were born as. Overcoming adversity then builds confidence, which reinforces the control and discipline, and therefore develops into more skills. Through this cycle, a person can grow and become far more than what they started as.
In the Children of Dune book, he explores through Leto II and Alia how this can develop beyond what people expect, both good and bad, and how that development eventually alienates people from the rest of society, and disconnects them from society. It also explores how 'normal' people react to such development, and how dangerous it can be.
In God Emperor of Dune, he explores the further development of a single person far beyond what everyone else sees, and how 'normal' people cannot understand the motives of the powerful, and attribute motives to things through assumption, that in many cases cannot be further from the truth. Leto II becomes this God Emperor to help and develop humanity, because none of the prescient could not see a future for humanity past a certain point. He cares for humanity as a whole, loves them, and committed to a very long, lonely, and painful life to do this, the ultimate in control and discipline. He knew what he was in for, yet he did it anyway.
In Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune, Herbert explores more development of humanity, and how our potential is so vast that event he prescient could not foresee it. He explores how this might develop and the bumps and adversities along the way.
This taught me to look for that potential. My personal exploration went in a different way, seeing the potential in individuals, and how belief and confidence can bring out potential, and how many of those in power actively prevent people from exploring that. A combination of my exploration of modern MBTI theory and the superhero trilogy my M Night Shamalan really convinced me that people do indeed have "superpowers" they can gain from this development cycle. Granted, those powers would not be super-strength or bullet proof, but I do believe that superhuman levels of anticipation, diplomacy, connection building, leadership, and process development are equally as valuable, potentially more so, than anything comic books can come up with, and every one of us has that potential in us, if we work to build it.
@@schnee1 The different factions represent this the most, the Bene Geserit being the key players and others that aren't shown in the films (yet) come in second. The scene where Jessica (and later Paul) is able to have such a degree of control over her body that she can synthesize a lethal poison and manipulate it into something with only positive effects. The Bene Geserit have unlocked a control over the human body and human mind that is almost unimaginable. The books of course explain much of this better. Another example is their ability to control which gender their babies grow into. The books explore how much this "potential of humanity" has positive and negative side effects for civilization as a whole. Paul becoming the Kwisach Haderach is the ultimate representation of this potential (and later his son even more so.)
Control vs indulgence is a great angle to look at it, yeah! There's more, layers within layers, but I'm afraid those can only be unravelled using the books as well...
Just as a quick addition/nitpick though, I believe Harkonnens are a step below Rome (even if we accept the myth of vomitoriums): their capital on Arrakis is literally named Carthag. So they embody a "city of vice" *from* a Roman perspective... But then again, you also get all of those False Prophet vibes from Feyd-Rautha which if unravelled will inevitably lead to Nero - so there's definitely a mix.
As much as the Voice and really much of the lore around the Bene Gesserit is basically magic, I do like the concept behind it and how it fits into the lore and the core themes. An average person can change minds and inspire people with the right words with the right inflection and the right calculation of mannerisms to give off the right amount of charisma. A Bene Gesserit has such a fine tuned control over their own body and mind as well as such a strong ability to read others that they take that idea to its extreme with flat out mind control.
Dune is my favorite movie so I was so so excited to see this video pop up on my CZcams. I've seen it 19 times so I'm excited to hear about it from a writer's perspective
One detail I wish was more talked about was how each character activates their shield. It feels small but if you look at each character turning on their shield, I think it says a lot about who they are. Paul activates his shield when sparring with Gurney and in a relatively casual way, maybe because they're not yet on Arrakis and he's not worried about his safety yet. Leto activates his shield when he's unable to contact security before the Harkonnen attack and does it in a relatively calm but cautious manner. Duncan Idaho activates his shield before protecting Paul and Jessica in the geotesting station, and turns it on by slamming the butt of his weapon onto the activation point on his chest. It's a super energetic and aggressive, and highlights he's going into battle. Baron Harkonnen turns on his shield with a flick of his finger before leaning in to hear what Leto is mumbling. He does it in a really off-hand manner, like he's above everything. but the setting in which he's doing it (literally before leaning in to hear the last words of a seemingly defenseless, paralyzed man) highlights that even though he acts like he's above everyone else and he's put the duke in a very vulnerable position (stripped naked and paralyzed), he's *still* scared of Leto
All the things you subconsciously feel while wayching a great movie like this without putting the finger on it and there it is, simplified and served on a golden plate.
That makes an already great experience even greater.
Thanks man
Hey schnee, do you have any plans to do a video on that brilliant "We lost ourselves. Lost our dream. In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good." quote line from Arcane? I'd LOVE to watch an entire video dedicated to this. In relates so much to both the Arcane plot, Viktors story arc and a lot of stuff in real life.
You and dune's such a good combination 😂 your arcane analysis videos were some of the best analysis of anything I've ever seen. Hope to see more on dune too! Such an awesome universe.
By far one of the best, if not the best channel at analyzing the why behind art. What cultural points these pieces capture to withstand time.
To add on, the fallen hero archetype (from lucifer to Vader) in the case of Paul further pushes one of the major themes of the books, which is there arent really "good" or "bad" guys in Dune. While Tolkien's work was more about clear moral evil and clear moral good, and furthermore how the actions of the smallest among us can impact the world, Dune is somewhat the opposite, in how there isnt really a clear catholic-like good and evil. And also how the small decisions of the few which hold power impact the entire world (galaxy). The revelation that Paul is a Harkonnen isnt hollow thematically like Luke's in Star Wars, beyond pushing the themes of control mentioned in the video, it pushes the biggest political and moral themes of the book as well.
The most striking thing about Dune, since I read it, has always been how much it values everything that exists and can exist within the confines of an ironclad fate. Dune is the tragedy of paul, and throughout the whole book he struggles greatly to avoid what is impossible to overcome, and after drinking the water of life that is made aggressively clear to him. Yet, despite this, there's this powerful undercurrent in his relationships with his mom, chani, and even stilgar to an extent (as well as his past retainers and servants like Thufir and Gurney) of the warmth and personability and lushness of them. Paul is suffering and will ultimately suffer the ultimate end, but he still can find some kind of meaning and love in all of that.
That's why the idea of control being tied to the atreides and anti-control being harkonnen is so interesting, because it both shows how they are not really polar opposites, but also how someone who is supposedly able to overcome all must accept and embody both of those things, as even when he is the Kwisatz Haderach and can see any and all, Paul still cannot escape his terrible fate that has been crafted for centuries through the Bene Gesserit and the very processes on Arrakis with his life and the life of those he holds dear.
Awesome breakdown of themes! I honestly felt like dune two was a little underwhelming but you bring up some interesting points about how Paul was supposed to be feeling. I have a little more appreciation for the direction the story went now.
Yeah it's interesting, i don't find Paul (or the other characters) super compelling, but the themes and the world shine so bright that it hardly mattered for me by the end
Yeah, I am also not very emotionally invested in the characters, but I am invested in the story, and I think it has to do with the fact that it's heavily plot-driven. In character-driven stories, I'm fine with a simpler plot because the appeal is discovering the intricacies of these characters and their relationships, whereas in plot-driven narratives, the appeal is seeing how the story itself unfolds and much less about getting to know the characters.
Yay worldbuilding!
i think this is very interesting ! im bad at understanding themes in stories yet it always makes sense when im watching your videos. Also, i just wanted to say im a big fan of you and your channel and now im very excited about your video on Hazbin Hotel :D
Paul's killing strike against Feyd-Rautha is another excellent example of this and it seems nearly everyone has missed it.
We've seen this fight before. It was Gurney Halleck attacking Paul when the latter said he didn't feel like sparring that day. Like FR, Paul made a big deal about holding his knife to Gurney's head. Unlike Gurney, Paul did plunge the knife into FR's belly.
To be honest I've never understood why FR was a serious threat to Paul. On the surface, sure, since FR has fought hundreds of duels to the death. (He's certainly killed people during training spars.) But those opponents are usually drugged, and in the movie we saw guards tasked with keeping the opponents from becoming too much of a threat.
We've only seen Paul fight Gurney and Jamis, but in the books he fought with the Fremen for years. Even in the movie he's fought long enough for the Harkonnen and notice is Fremen name, and the Emperor to make the effort required to learn his true identity. He should have found FR a dilettante. It's true that Paul beat Jamis, and likely that FR could have even though he didn't have some BG training, but young Paul plus years of desert combat should have left FR a puddle on the ground.
Feel like throwing this out there:
What I love about Dune is that it believes in the power of the human. The whole world is set up so that the greatest steps in progress are made in improving the individual human. The war between machines and man ends in the outlawing of "thinking machines." They don't have computers to do their thinking for them so they must learn to think for themselves. I love the detail of the expansive library in the Atreides castle as well as the scenes of Paul studying and learning about Arrakis. The mentat is a detail not touched on as much in the movie. A mentat is a highly logical strategist trained for years to become, essentially, a human computer. The combat also contributes to this theme. In most sci-fi sagas, warfare is waged with large machines and robots of mass destruction. While there are some innovations in weapons technology in Dune, much of the fighting is done hand to hand and is based on personal skill. This is also emphasized by Paul's training scene near the beginning of the first movie. Even aspects like the voice are achieved through dedicated practice. All of the Bene Gesserit training is centered on improving the individual and pushing the limits of human capacity and potential. I'm sure there are many more examples of this throughout Dune. Just food for thought
Thanks for reading
- [00:00] 🌍 Dune's worldbuilding achieves thematic unity, contrasting with typical fantasy worldbuilding that may seem disjointed.
- [01:06] 🗡 "The slow blade penetrates the shield" represents a deeper theme of control, requiring fighters to withhold some force for precise strikes.
- [02:10] 🗣 The Voice and the pain box emphasize the importance of control over impulses and emotions.
- [03:22] 💧 Fremen lifestyle embodies control through disciplined water conservation, avoiding extremes.
- [04:02] 👨👦👦 House Atreides ethos emphasizes power through discipline and control, demonstrated in familial relationships.
- [05:33] 🛤 Paul's journey reflects a struggle between control and release, mirroring broader themes of power and identity.
- [08:00] 💥 The Harkonnen embody release over control, indulging in extremes of emotion and desire.
- [10:38] ❓ Paul's actions at the story's climax leave his path ambiguous, blending control and release in a thought-provoking manner.
Hey! I know this is abit off topic but was wondering if you’d ever make a video essay on blue eye samurai?
I'm not sure if Paul lets go of control at the end of the movie. For example he lets go of love (isn't controlled by it anymore) at the end and enters a controlled political marriage. I don't really see how he becomes more Harkonnen at the end. There is a big release at the end of the movie. But it's the Fremen people doing it and Paul controlling them. Awareness preceeds control and Paul gains some mastery of his ability to see into the future and intentionally chooses the future he wants.
Really enjoyed this angle of analysis. Super practical takeaways on world building from one of my favorite movies of the past few years.
I’ve come to realize and appreciate the level of strategy involved in all of the decision making in the Dune universe. From political positioning to a precise dance in hand to hand combat. The focus on control in all things is a powerful thematic concept and really does make for a compelling world.
Aaaand that's the best analysis of all the video essays i've watched on Dune in the last couple weeks
i always love your videos, been watching them since arcane, and you've just managed to once again make a video about a story I already think is amazing and make me respect it even more by adding another perspective. So thank you for what you do, and please keep doing it
I rewatched the first movie and I think there’s quite a bit of thematic symbolism with the bull that would be a super interesting thing to see your take on
I’m sad he did Chani dirty at the end lol. Love you and your videos ❤
wow. never thought of the things mentioned here. The lessons in the story the way you put them.
AHHH SO HAPPY YOU MADE THIS VIDEO!!!! I adore dune
You are one of my favorite vide essayists and I'm so happy to see you exploring the world of Dune. Please keep the dune content coming!
I watched every arcane video you made twice.
I am ready to do the same with Dune
I've loved Dune since the '80s -- before you were born? -- and I still learned something new from this video. You're a treasure.
YES OMG I WANTED U TO DO THIS VIDEO THANK YOUUUU
This movie, and the first one, really are masterpieces!!!!
This is a good video! Well done!! 😊
So thrilled to see you cover Dune 🙏🎉
Back at it again💪🏾
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL SO MUCH
The way you put it, primary theme of Dune is about delayed gratification. Some animals are capable of it (hiding food for later, for example), but us humans are the best at it.
brilliant explanation
Excellent analysis mate!
I love the congruence with the Jedi and Sith philosophy of Star Wars with the using emotions but retaining control
I think Paul saying “I prefer Chani” was also his way of trying to reject the prophecy. Rejecting the desert spring, Chani’s tears, being the last piece of the piece of the puzzle that would unlock his psychic abilities. Ironic considering how that turned out.
I think with the topic of control it would be very interesting to talk about the prescience as the whole point of the prescience is for Paul to find the right level of control for the outcome he desires.
that The Last of Us video that you refer to at the end of this video is the best video I've ever seen in CZcams, you are very good
Excellent video!
Finally the Harkonnen bloodline detail makes sense.
Speaking of the graveyard scene:
"Grandfather fought bulls for sport!"
"Yeah, and where did that get him?"
I love videos that make me fall in love with a movie all over again ❤
Good video as always but i have one minor correction to just a single word you mentioned while talking about the romans. The "vomitoriums" were not actually for vomiting, rather the origin of the word comes from the fact that these rooms in colosseums were the entrances /exits so in this instance "vomit" doesnt mean to 🤮 but to "spew forth" (people).
Edit: you didnt explicitly say that they were used for vomiting but in the context you mentioned them that would be the only way for it to make sense. (In my mind)
Good video . I wish it had more views. But i appreciate the analysis
I really love that Denis Villeneuve left the Harkonnen revelation for Part II. In the books it's in the book one when Paul and Jessica are in the tent having escaped Arrakeen and the Atreides genocide. But movie Paul becomes so much more complicated as we see him more actively struggle against his fate thinking he can avoid it. Where as in the books he knows as soon as the visions start what he is and while he's not always the biggest fan of what the future will be he submits to it knowing there's nothing he can do about it. Movie Paul being left in the dark about his full lineage while seeing the whole future after drinking the worm juice that he realizes what the past had been as well which I feel strengths the idea of "a mind that understands the past and knows the future a mind that can bend spacetime."
8:53 apparently Vomitoriams are just funnels for people leaving a stadium not a place where you go to vomit to then eat more.
Citation needed*
I'm impressed U pick up on all of this without reading the novels I'm not sure if U have or haven't but well done.
i just like the differences in vehicle design
One more thing about the control and the gom jabbar: in the movie Paul kills the Baron similarly as the gom jabbar test with his blade on the Baron's neck, i.e. the Baron dies because he is an animal that has no control, and thus not human. Poetic closure, Baron's body is given to the desert with his waters, because as the Baron said in the first movie "The desert takes the weak".
I just woke up and I get this yayyyy
Absolutely love your writing analyses. Have you read any of the dune books?
Great video! While this debate has likely been beaten into the ground at this point, I'd love to hear your take on 'Dune vs. Lord of the Rings'.
Not in a matter of which one is better but rather how do they fair against each other, with each other; since they both widely considered the greatest stories within their respected genres, what qualities do they share to make them so, which qualities set them apart and so forth.
As always, brilliant analysis! this gets long but I have a suggestion for a video at the every end :))
Another way the Fremen exercise control in context of water is how they have a scared pool of water from the fallen Fremen.
Control as a theme in Dune is highly linked to culture.
With the shield, it's about practicality in battle. From the get go, the houses, the Imperium, the Fremen- these are all groups of people with warriors who fight for power (control) and thus the need arises for innovative technology. Ergo, we get special shields.
The pain box the Benne Gesserit use help them in the grander scheme of pulling political strings in the universe. This is a tool they use to gain discernment. If you pass this test, they see you as something capable of being controlled by them, therefore you have value (or rather you can serve a means to an end for them). This stems from the cultural means of how the Bene Gesserit operate in the films- they control individuals to control larger groups.
As far as Paul's revelation at the end and if this is letting loose- I think about what he told his mother about how he sees a lot of paths where everything is destroyed but he sees one "good ending" and that's his goal. I think it's calculated "release" in efforts to achieve this ending he claims to see.
The fact we're not certain if he's really this "messiah" or what the whole truth there is I think is brilliant on Dune's part. Because that's part of faith. While religion can be and is used to assert control over people, which is a large part of what Dune is about, faith itself revolves around the idea we do not have control.
The Fremen learn this duality by accepting what they have control over (their respect of the desert, the reverence towards the higher power, their technology and adaptations, etc.) but ultimately submitting themselves to the flow of the desert (as Jamis teaches Paul about via his visions from the Spice). This is the desert power that Leto seeks even if he does not know it when he first arrives on Arrakis. We as the audience are given clues to believe or not believe that Paul is the "messiah". We are fully aware of the Bene Gesserit's manipulation on the planet so we know we can't fully trust it. Furthermore, we also know the behind-the-scenes of how they manipulate not only people but also bloodlines themselves "to bring forth a mind". However, while the legend is something they can control, some of these "prophecies" are out of their control such as the giant sandworm that Paul rides which Stilgar recognizes as part of their scripture.
This leaves us not totally sure one way or the other, but we're still prone to pick a side when we watch the film and pick a bias (Team Chani vs Team Dune Messiah). his can impact how we perceive the whole film. And the best part is Dune doesn't let you off easy by telling you the answer and letting you rest easy. It makes you wonder. It forces you to pick a side and let you stew in your own uncertainty. It asks you to decide for yourself and then have faith in that answer, whether you believe Paul is what he claims to be or not.
Personally, I don't think Paul is exactly embracing Harkonen-ness rather he's accepting this is part of him and something he can use to achieve his ultimate goal. Whatever this endgame is for him, he says he's seen a clear path and knows what he needs to do to get to that finale. But we as the audience don't know what that looks like or if it's all BS.
Dune has such rich storytelling, there's so many things to dig into here. I'm super excited to see you writing about it!
One question I think would be fun to play with is "when are you having faith and when are you being manipulated by religion" because I think that's a strong theme running throughout Dune. Your background in Jewish law (I think you've mentioned you've studied this??? sorry if im wrong!!) I think would give you an incredible perspective on that topic if you're interested in exploring it.
The themes are really obvious in the books. Far more obvious than in the films. In the books the Litany of Fear is repeated again and again and of course that's all about control and the Harkonnens are also explicitly described as being intentionally self-indulgent by various characters. I haven't seen the second film yet but that's the one thing that stuck out to me most in the books the Litany of Fear is repeated much more and the themes are very directly touched on.
Had to come back after watching this yesterday and eh, the video was good, great even.
But the Aiel are great too. Their culture and their hostory and how certain beliefs from their ancestors came to live their own life and the people forgetting where their habits even came from and how the passificm and culcure interacts with the rest of the story world and characters was amazing.
The aiel are probably inspired by the fremen, but they hold up as their own interesting thing as well.
Great points here, this can also apply to Paul’s prescience, controlling his vision and seeking to understand the depths of his gift.
‘As he had done many times, Paul wondered how he could explain the delicacy of the oracle, the timelines without number which vision before him on an undulating fabric. He sighed, remembered water lifted from a river in the hollow of his hands-trembling, draining. Memory drenched his face in it. How could he drench himself in futures growing increasingly obscure from the pressures of too many oracles.’
It is in the second book that Paul slowly starts to let go and just ride the wave so to speak:
‘I succumbed to the lure of the oracle, he thought.
And he sensed that succumbing to this lure might be to fix himself upon a single-track life. Could it be, he wondered, that the oracle didn't tell the future? Could it be that the oracle made the future?’
I have a theory about what's in the box! I think It could be explained in Dune: House Harkonnen. There's a blade made by Piter de Vries that travels through skin but causes the brain the experience the trauma. I think there's another reference to the sequels with "the spider queen?" It's in Dune part 1 right before the meeting with Piter, The reverand mother, and the Barron.
My issue is, even though they are working together; why would he share that technology with them?
Hopefully this was helpful
Minor book spoilers below!!!!
0:32 The voice is not magic:
"Hawat started to leap from his chair.
“I have not dismissed you, Thufir!” she flared.
The old Mentat almost fell back into the chair, so quickly did his muscles betray him.
She smiled without mirth.
“Now you know something of the real training they give us,” she said.
Hawat tried to swallow in a dry throat. Her command had been regal, peremptory-uttered in a tone and manner he had found completely irresistible. His body had obeyed her before he could think about it. Nothing could have prevented his response-not logic, not passionate anger... nothing. To do what she had done spoke of a sensitive, intimate knowledge of the person thus commanded, a depth of control he had not dreamed possible."
"Does every human have this blind spot?" he wondered. "Can any of us be ordered into action before he can resist?" The idea staggered him. Who could stop a person with such power?"
There is no magic in the books.
3:05 There is actually a tribe of Fremen who kill everyone for their water.
5:10 After Mentat training, Paul had an insane control over himself. There was a moment where Jessica started to lose control over her dukes death and Paul said something like, "Now is not the time to grieve. It will come later."
6:05 In the book, Paul called her "the spring of my life", which is beautiful, in my humble opinion.
7:05 After that kill, Jessica walked to him and yelled that he's a killer. Because he is a very young boy who just killed a person for the first time and will receive a lot of positive feedback from that action. At the moment she was afraid that he will become psycopath with power after that.
8:18 Baron lives for pleasure. Always. A lot of good food. Little beautiful boys in his bed. I really like the scene from the film where he was with hookah in the hot tub.
9:40 In the books, Paul did everything to find that path where he didn't start a new jihad in his name. At some point, he wanted to do the unthinkable, but knew that it would not stop the jihad.
10:20 He never lost control in the book in that sense. But he kinda was unable to distinguish reality and his visions, he didn't really understand what had happened and what was yet to happen.
Personally, I didn't like how far Denis went from the original in the second film. And remembering the books; I have no idea how to make the third film. He turned the films into a completely different story.
I fully enjoyed Dune 2 and think it’s a great movie … I don’t think it’s an adaptation after this movie tho .. for me
I don’t know where Messiah is going
Imma watch this on Monday after I watch Dune in IMAX
Dear Schnee I do not know how often you take requests for CZcams videos However as a big Fan of your analysis on characters and character breakdowns Including the breakdowns of the worlds that they are placed in and the environments they have to endure I would really really like to see you break down the OverWatch storyline. I was watching a video earlier today on my Instagram feed arguing that none of the characters in OverWatch were actually bad guys merely antagonists and as war is the major theme in the game I'm very curious to know your thoughts on each of their points of views Because despite the games downfall I severely enjoy and had a lot of Hope for the storyline of this game It was one of the few games in my experiences that invigorated a lot of excitement Not just in a gameplay aspect but genuinely in a way to see where the story would go. if you've ever watched The opening short you might get some idea of what I mean for anyone else who's a fan of schnee please like this comment if you'd also like to see this I really really hope that this comes to fruition so any help to get this idea out there I appreciate thank you
-a new writer
I'd love to see a Wheel of Time analysis sometime.
I'm glad I watched this video. I greatly enjoyed the first film, but not the second, and I think it was because I was expecting it to be built, as the book was, around a different line: "The first step in evading a trap is knowing that it's there."
House Atreides accepts Dune--the Emperor's trap--with hope, as they have made some educated guesses that might pay of--if they can be fast enough to take advantage of it. The Harkonnen are too fast for Duke Leto, but Paul ultimately proves those hopes right.
There are many factions who walk unknowingly into traps they don't know are there, because they never took the time to understand the planet they were wringing for spice, and they are unmade without a chance of escape. Many of them also operated cautiously, following the path of least risk, which the Kwizach Haderach later reveals to also have been a trap, one that leads to stagnation.
But Paul himself walks into traps with some foreknowledge, and is *doomed* for it: he is tormented by his visions of the Fremen holy war, so he becomes their messianic figure (he doesn't fight it the way he does in the film), knowing it could precipitate the holy war, but hoping he will gain absolute control, in order to prevent it. Going into the duel with Feyd-Rautha, however, he realises that the outcome is inevitable: if he lives, the Fremen will say no blade can touch the Lisan-al-Gaib, and if he dies, they will say his spirit withdrew to lead them from beyond. He has lost control to his own image and legend, and is no more than a puppet-leader that can see the strings to which it dances without having any agency over them.
An even *worse* version of this befalls him from taking the Water of Life, as he finds that seeing the future is to be trapped by it, his actions dictated by the narrow path he must thread in order to avoid an even *bigger* trap-that-someone-walked-into-willingly that will eliminate the human species if left unchecked.
Virtually none of this happens in the film, however, which left me disappointed because I was looking at it through that lens. But you make a powerful argument about Villeneuve leaning hard into a different idea, and that makes me want to watch the film again, to appreciate it for what it was trying to accomplish. Thank you.
Please more DUNE! i would love b4 Arcane returns :D
bro used the voice and it worked im subbed
I would have never thought to world build in a thematic manner like this O_o
Dune really is something else.
But why only 10 min ?? Thanks for the work and the video
Your videos are amazing. I cant wait whaat you are going to talk about next. I would love it if you did Blade Runner 2049 or Doctor Who.
"Why doesn't everything work together perfectly?"
Welcome to real life
suddenly i feel compelled to subscribe
Also: The Litany Against Fear
I think the other theme other than control is faith. Everything about Dune's worldbuilding encompasses faith.
How do the Fremen live in that desolate, unforgiving place? Faith.
How are the Harkonnens so powerful? Why don't people revolt? Fear of God.
So many things about Dune are about what faith can do to people. Worldbuilding, what I've found, is centred around a single concept.
Grishaverse? Science.
Arcane? Magic vs. Science.
Nimona? Monsters vs. 'Knights'.
Everything is harmonious because it's built around one concept.
In contrast with the Atreides, the Harkonnens are studies in lack of control, personal or otherwise. Their first inclination is to revert to brute force. When given the task of regaining control over Arrakis and resuming Spice production, Rabban can only think in terms of ever greater displays of violence. He is just a mirror for Harkonnen society itself.
The slow blade penetrates the shield
it's why the atreides plan worked, and it's also why the Emperors plan worked. It's the first fight scene in the training hall, only writ large. It's politic.
Fav utuber ❤
Also its interesting that with Dune the story protagonist isn't the hero by the end of the movie. It's like watching Anakin becoming Vader while ostensibly being a protagonist.
Pleeeease pleeease please look into Blue Eye Samurai, I would LOVE to hear your takes on that show, the main character, Master Eiji, Ringo, Taigen, everyone
Lol, the most obvious pointer about the theme of 'control' is the Bene Gesserit mantra; letting go of fear leads one to inner-power/ control.
I didnt see no slow blades in Part 2 when Gurney was destroying the Harks
Paul finds his perfect balance..... On a tilt.
To be fair also about Paul, by the end of the movie he has already seen the golden path, he knows what he has to be
The conflict between the idealisms of cultural identity and the realisms of imperial ambition through Paul Atreides is brilliantly mirrored by Lawrence of Arabia's role in the Arab Revolt which inspired Frank Herbert.