The WORST "What If" in NBA History!
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- čas přidán 31. 08. 2023
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Grant Hill recently revealed that Doc Rivers might be the only reason that had no match for Kobe and Shaq out West for the Lakers. The Super Team that never was, but could have been the most disruptive force in NBA history was stopped by one bad conversation. The Orlando Magic just can't catch a break. #basketball #commentary #nba - Sport
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The Grant Hill signing was a sign and trade that included the Magic giving up Ben Wallace. Add that to the what-if if they would have known Hill was going to be so injury prone. Magic could have had prime T-Mac, Duncan, and Wallace.
Omfg Duncan and Wallace defensively
Good lord.
@@ballinsoro4633teams would’ve scored 50 pts a game
As a magic fan, I have PTSD from this
@@eyeconqueror1185take it this way at least you don’t have a legacy of drafting busts like the Trailblazers(no offense to the Blazers fan base)
Tmac and Tim Duncan duo shouldn't be something we didn't get to see, just wow
Allstar games?
Tracy McGrady was with the Spurs for the 2012-2013 season. He only sat on the bench though lol. He could’ve won a ring too
@@JD-iu6rvYep. If he was in at the end of game 6 of the finals, I bet he woulda blocked Ray Allen! Or at the least got the rebound from Bosh so they wouldn't have had the opportunity at all...😅
and think they could have had a big 3 years before Boston with TMac, Duncan and Grant Hill. I wonder if they stayed healthy if this would have moved up the super team era to the mid 2000s instead of the 2010s.
@@robg8203nah he was trash
I think T-Mac’s greatest retrospective regret was leaving Toronto. He and VC probably could’ve made the 2001 Finals. I think he’s alluded to as much as well.
They would have made the finals from 2001-03 if they were healthy. They beat the 76ers in 01 and the Nets 02-03
He did say he regrets leaving Vince back then.
Just another example of doc rivers not making adjustments 😂😂😂
That’s foul 🤣🤣
😂😂😂
You mention Mike Miller. Could you do a deep dive on him? He's mainly remembered as just another 3pt shooter, but he was a lot more than that when he first entered the league.
Mike had game won rookie of the year could shoot the lights out had handle could pass loved mike in orlando
andyhoops did a vid on him
Good playmaker could play 1-3 effectively along with the shot
The story of how the Orlando medical staff screwed up Grant Hills health (ankle) is so tragic.
You gonna bring this up Rusty..... You gonna do this to me bro! You know this is a nightmare for me!
Don't know if you'll ever see this rusty but pop and duncan talked about this exact situation after they won in 2014. In their own words Duncan was still set on going to Orlando, it's a lot closer to home for him and a similar environment being so close to the ocean. He didn't change his mind until pop had heard about it and went over to his house to talk to him and after that he wanted to stay, even with Doc messing it up it was still really close to happening
I don't understand how Tracy thought he'd have his own team with a healthy Hill and Duncan, but not with just one other all-star caliber player in Carter.
probably because they were both primary wing scorers, they occupied the same role. hill was more of a slashing point forward, not a dynamic go to scorer and while duncan was a 1st option his role was as a 2 way post player not a wing scorer. think of it as the way people have an issue with tatum and brown or pg and kawhi, I don't have an issue with it and I think all 3 could work but I think that's the concern. Imagine MJ and Drexler as a pairing vs like MJ and Hakeem.
@@cm8152yeah hahaha that’s why Kobe and Shaq along with Bron and AD mesh so well
@@cm8152The funny thing is Mj, Drexler, and Hakeem could’ve been the same team. Now that right there is a “What If”.
@@ebenezeronilei would not want to see this mainly clyde and mj on the same team. Jordan and Hakeem would've won like 25 rings
@@SolaceMcflyClyde and Jordan is the Celtics’s Js. But Hakeem and Jordan would’ve won from like 89-98 or something like that.
I always hear Tim asked that to Doc. Do you have a source on Grant Hill being the one to leak that? I always wondered if that story was floated by Duncan in revenge for Rivers trying to take Pop's job in 1999. Funny story about that dinner. It was reported in the San Antonio press that the Magic had this huge fancy spread but Tim didn't want any of that shit and had the Magic go pick up a couple of bacon cheeseburgers from Wendy's.
Doc did confirmed in an interview.
“We can’t blame Doc for power tripping on the superstar athletes who held all the leverage. If he knew this person with all the leverage cared about the thing that he brought up and was instantly shot down about he probably wouldn’t have responded in the stupid way he did. It’s actually the fault of the superstar athlete who without Doc helped foster one of the longest running dynasties in nba history to communicate better that he cares about the thing that he mentioned during the negotiation process”
It’s really no way to defend Doc’s pettiness there, he clearly needed Tim more than Tim needed him.
Thumbnails have been absolute bangers lately, great job whoever's been doing them!!!
Idk, one thing about this is one.. they got Timmy lookin like white Kobe or something 😂
My hate for doc rivers runs deep into my soul as a magic fan
I feel like that's the same for every team he's coached. :D
At that time, Grant Hill was the biggest name among the three. Please do not forget that. Oh, what could've been.
I would only want this just so we could see Tracy McGrady vs Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan versus Shaquille O'Neal in the finals and actually see Tracy McGrady get out of the first round
Didn’t McGrady make it out of the first round as a reserve on San Antonio?
@fortynights1513 ironically yes😭
As a Magics fan (yea we exist), this has to be one of the craziest What Ifs in nba history
I know a lot of you probably skip the ad but in the end when he says if you’re anything like me and like to drown out, the noise in your head and the many many regrets I just busted out laughing
Same!
This ties into a "what if" I have been thinking about: What if the 1998-99 season was cancelled, and they didn't resolve the lockout until Oct. 1999? Would contracts have been pushed back a year (meaning that T-Mac or Duncan aren't FA until 2001)? That is one major change that could have come out of this "what if".
I don't like most of your comtent but I'm still addicted to it
Shaq against his old team? What if?
Couldn’t have written a better script
Man docs career has been full of almost a legendary coach
Could we have gotten four straight LA-Orlando finals?
D'rell, that's Darrell Armstrong. And I remember hearing he ate a Snicker bar at half time every game. Something about simple carbs and head fakes
This was really well done. BTW as someone with issues sleeping without "white noise", not sure if its a neuro divergence thing or ADHD, but after years of rain sounds, I tried ear plugs. This may sound counter productive, but they block the ambient sounds that kept me awake like the fridge, AC and such.
Bro literally no one cares
@@Raft-Rider because you dont suffer from it. If ine person can rest better, it matters.
I’m a Magic fan, this is brutal, I put more of the onus on Doc, but I’ve always left the benefit of doubt out there that if Duncan said, “I get this in SA and it’s important” that Doc would responded, “Bet, your family has a green light”.
No matter how good prime Timmy was at carrying a team, Tmac's first round exit curse is too heavy.
Actually that honor goes to "the Bulls would've won 8 straight if Jordan never retired". People act like Jordan didn't play in the 1995 playoffs and lose to a 20 year old Shaq and Penny in the second round. And don't even say "Jordan was rusty", Jordan was the only reason they made the second round, averaging prime Jordan numbers, same as every other year, it just wasn't enough to win. The Bulls would not have won 8 straight because Michael Jordan literally lost in the 1995 playoffs, but hey, at least he didn't lose in the finals right? You gotta make the finals to lose the finals.
Fr
I think the bigger what if is what if Tracy would have stayed in Toronto. They legitimately make 3 straight finals from 2001-2003 assuming they stay healthy and keep the other raptors role players. They took the 76ers to 7 games without TMac. I also believe they beat the Nets the next 2 years. It's more realistic because if you look back the magic would have probably gotten Duncan and Hill instead of Duncan and TMac. Hill was their first choice from what I've read and they didn't have the cap room for all 3 if I'm not mistaken.
It just sucks to know what could’ve been, Tmac and Grant Hill are such chill guys they really deserved a chip
Nah, you don't deserve a ring. You earn one. If they didn't get it then they didn't earn it.
Wheres the 2k video at?
When Tim Duncan went back to the spurs and hill missed time due to his ankle injury were the Magic over the salary cap yes or no which prevented them from signing another talented player to help TMAC
Top 5 heaviest carry jobs for a championship winning team would be a great video
Hakeem's first title would be in there. Sure the second one was a lower seed, but he had no Drexler.
Not the dumbest what in history I know this is gonna be a good video
I think “What if Harden wasn’t so fat” would be the worst what if, but that’s just me
As TMac was my favorite player growing up this utter foolishness by Doc will forever piss me off!
forgot to factor in the generational talent-wasting abilities of Glenn Rivers, that man would've singlehandedly removed Timmy from any all-time convo
Honestly the Spurs should retire a jersey for Doc and hang it right next to Duncans. Lmao
This story is the reason i can't look at Doc Rivers without him morphing into a clown like in that classic Simpsons episode.
We need an nba live with kobe to chicago
Magic and barkley on the lakers
Garnett and kobe on la
Mcgrady and iverson in philly
Melo to chicago with drose
Melo to detroit
Classic Doc Rivers cooking up Ls
Fyi. Grant hill reinjured his ankle in orlando. He played on a bad ankle injury the season before with pistons in the playoffs. It was ridiculous that he the team let him play on it. He was visibly limping and the team had no shot in that series w or without him. Hated thet he did that.
Didn't Doc have a different story? He said that Tim had another meeting with San Antonio after and changed his mind over that. I prefer that story, it makes more sense than "girlfriend on team plane".
It was very well known here in Orlando and around the nba Duncan didn’t come because of that. I have a older cousin who played for years and he said that was the gossip around the league. That’s also when player empowerment starts to happen because of that.
Might actually be the biggest doc rivers choke job in history
Rusty what the heck is a “stock” per game 💀
😂😂😂AND Y'ALL WONDER WHY EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE SIGNS ANTETOKUMPO BROTHERS
bo outlaw gotta be the hardest name in NBA history
Mookie blaylock
Doc rivers is the KD of coaches
Doc eventually inherits a big 3 that earns him a free chip a few years later. All’s well that ends well.
Luckily, we got to see duncan and mcgrady play together on 2013 spurs
It’s asterisk. Asterix is a comic book character.
i feel like my boy rusty is packin some shmeat
Pretty Dark rusty 2:08
1984. Portland Almost traded Drexler and #2 draft pick to Houston for Ralph Sampson. Drexler Jordan Hakeem all couldve been on the same team in 1984. How many rings is that?
Doc rivers had already said the magic couldn't had gotten Duncan tmac and grant hill. They could have only gotten two. If duncan had decided to go to Orlando it would've been duncan and grant hill not mcgrady becaue the magics wouldnt had been able to pay him. But because doc fumbled the situation they ended up with hill and mcgrady and really on mcgrady cause of hill injuries to his ankle.
Stocks of what?? Disney? Exxon Mobile? The Red Cross?
I tell this to absolutely every stranger.
Everyone ive known more than 5 minutesm
Every 2000s kids dream.
Prime Kobe vs Prime T-Mac in the playoffs.
As much as there are scenarios where this works out perfectly, one has to think there are some where it's absolutely terrible & I wonder what would've been the cause for this to not work out
that one hair on his forehead is annoying me😭
Listen man, great CZcamsr, great video, great analysis, great basketball content all around. I almost always agree with you, I am on board with all of the efficiency stuff, totally love it. WE HAVE GOT TO STOP USING STOCKS! I am not actually that pressed about it, but my little autism brain has a hard enough time adjusting from effective FG% to True Shooting to VORP, but steals and blocks? Who made this decision? Why? We’re they thinking about my mental well-being?!?
I know just say steals and block like bro shut the hell up with this stocks bullshit
I think it came from fantasy bball tbh. I’m a massive NBA nerd, have been for a long time, and the first time I heard ppl use stocks was in fantasy bball. 9 categories H2H, you set a lineup for a week and whoever wins more categories wins the week (can tie) then the records work just like FFB. The 9 categories are FG%, FT%, 3PM, ASSTS, REB, TOV, PTS, STLS, BLKS. So ppl would say stuff like “I need a guy that gets a bunch of stocks” etc. I pretty rarely hear it used outside of that.
PS: VORP is pretty useless, a lot of those single advanced stats are. They’re all flawed and you have to know how they’re flawed, and kinda use them as just another piece of info while putting together incomplete info. Stuff like BPM, VORP, pretty bleh stats. Catch all stats are usually quite poor too, relying on stuff such as EPM or whatever isn’t a great idea.
TS% is great, it’s way better than just looking at a box score, but you have to know what average is especially for a small guard vs a C etc. But I see ppl making fun of players or saying their trash bc their FG% is like low 40s or whatever. In reality if you’re a C who takes almost all of their shots at the rim, of course your FG% is gonna be high. And if you’re a 3P specialist (or just someone who takes a large amount of 3s) your FG% is prolly gonna be low. But if you take 15 shots a game and 9 are 3s, and you shoot 38%, then 2-3 are midrange jumpers where you’re quite good like 45%, your FG% might be really low. Even if the rest of your shots are at the rim and you’re a good finisher for a guard. But maybe you average 7 FTA and shoot 85%.
Like I saw a lot of ppl sht on FVV for his FG%. He’s always around 40% FG. And he’s not super efficient, he’s a bit below average TS%, but you’d think he was the least efficient player ever. In 21-22 he was 55.2% TS. 40.3% FG. But he was 37.7% 3P on 9.9att, 87.4% FT on 3.4att, his 2PA were assted 22.5% of the time, 3PA assted 59.5%. So he is creating the majority of his shots…and he always has a super high asst to TOV ratio. Usually 3:1. Also gets nearly 2stls a game. There’s a reason he was an All-Star in 21-22.
There are better examples, FVV isn’t super efficient, but his shot diet is insanely tough and he takes a ton of 3s. I also just happened to think of him bc he got so much hate for the 2y max deal. Ppl online legit talk about him like he’s Dillon Brooks on offense or something lol. But ya basically any advanced stat just needs a lot of context. I like on/off data, if your team is infinitely better with you on the court that likely means something. But even that is cloudy, it can depend so much on who you’re playing with and against (vs bench players? With starters or an elite superstar? Small sample sizes can lead to 3P shooting luck playing a large part, etc) and plenty of other factors.
Sorry for the tangent. Just wanted to rant about advanced stats for a minute, even as a huge nerd ppl treating EPM or some other catch all stat like it’s gospel annoys me. They’re all just tools. You have to know how to use them, along with watching basketball, and parsing through the obvious flaws of them. Bc they are all flawed. You can cherry pick advanced stats to make an argument for whoever you want pretty much, as long as they’re even kinda close.
Again sorry for the random tangent. Have a good one.
@@BOnYTB this is the kind of energy I need in CZcams comments sections. Have a fantastic day
@@leonbrumett6155 😂 🙏
What playback speed do you guys watch this video on?
T-Mac is still a choker with Yao Ming in the playoffs tho. So Duncan would’ve had to carried hard asf but I’m still taking lakers all day if it was to happen
Eventually TMac and Duncan did team up in 2014 while TMac unfortunately rode the bench due to injuries. Ray Allen’s shot crushed any dream of my favorite player getting a ring :(
If there’s a player who’s legacy would hypothetically suffer here the most, it’d probably be Shaq.
A few of the stats that people often mention when talking about Shaq are his finals averages over 2000-2002.
No knock on how well he played, but he probably doesn’t average 34 or 35 a game for three straight finals with Tim Duncan waiting for him at the rim.
As opposed to the other centers being Rik Smits at the end of his career and Dale Davis from Indiana, Dikembe Mutumbo (who was admittedly a DPOY) from Philly, and Todd MaCcullough and Jason Collins from New Jersey.
Other than Mutumbo, I’ve heard Shaq’s opposing centers in the finals weren’t good defensively.
And even Mutombo, being 7' 2" with long arms and great positioning, was just too skinny to do anything but flop
@@crashlight54 Mutumbo didn't flop Shaq just bodied him.
@@markgonzalez4199
He flopped a little. Not as much as Shaq says he did, but there was some floppage
@@crashlight54 Maybe, I don't remember it that way. Shaq just seemed to big and strong for him to me.
What if Orlando kept Ben Wallace as he was coming into his Prime? 🤔
As a DET fan we are already down bad enough, only won one ring back then despite making like 6 CF in a row or whatever and losing in 7 to SAS in the Finals bc of Robert Horry and some other dumb stuff. If they drafted Bosh or Melo or Wade or even someone just solid instead of Darko, there’s at least another ring. If you took Ben they don’t win a damn thing, that’d be sad.
So I’m sorry you can’t even have this hypothetical 😂 go hypothetically steal someone else’s guy. You guys got CHI to gift you so much for Vucevic. Literally DET got like John Henson, Brandon knight, some other scrub, and a couple second rounders for Blake/Reggie/Drummond etc. Can’t really start a rebuild with less assets without trading all of your picks like BKN. I mean seriously 2 2nds for their best players. Blake even had an unreal season in DET after that horrific trade for him, but somehow they decided it was a good idea to let him play on one leg vs the Bucks when they had a 0% chance. Obv got swept, who would’ve guessed? SVG is a good HC but why did they let him have GM privileges also?Sad. Blake had a legit T10 season then he was cooked.
I’m a UoM fan too and I’m jealous you guys got Franz he’s awesome. I’m joking but I’m really just bored/can’t sleep. I’m assuming you’re an ORL fan. If so I wish you the best of luck, fun team.
Y’all are surprised that Doc didn’t want to make an adjustment for the team? LOL
What if T Mac was on the spurs in 2002
But Grant’s consistent injuries in Orlando were a lot due to him coming back too early multiple times from that same foot injury. You could argue if they had Tmac and Tim it would’ve taken pressure off grant and he would’ve chose to rehab properly and could’ve extended his prime. But idk 🤷♂️
Tim Duncan did take TMac to the finals against Bron and Wade 🤔
Imagine how the NBA changes if doc says what "what about it why does it matter"
I am a huge Duncan fan here but I believe it is NOT Doc Rivers to blame here. Taking that decision without even asking and communicating how important it is for you, feels like a childish thing to do.
Duncan would be viewed as poorly as LeBron is if Doc said his GF could fly on that plane. lmao.
How is it Tim Duncan’s fault … if I’m about to sign a star player i don’t give a damn who he brings on the plane that’s common sense. That’s a RETARDED move by doc
Wait is bro a Spurs fan fr or you wearing the tee cos this is a Duncan video?
Tim Duncan carry job in 2003 vs Kawhi carry job in 2019?
Duncan by far
@@boubacardiallo5945 seriously? I didn’t watch 2003 Duncan (too young), how much of a carry job was it? It seems like Spurs had a competent roster (+ far better manager) so this is surprising to me
They would've choked if DOC was coaching 🤓🤓
I'm a Spurs fan. So I'm thankful this didn't happen.
Good Video
Kobe had longevity as a n advantage over TMac. Period. TMac was that good. He played and was as good as Kobe but longer.
How was Duncan a UFA so soon after being drafted? Was being RFA after a rookie deal not a thing back then?...😊
Well, Doc said in an interview with EJ that Duncan told him that “I’m pretty sure that I’m coming to the Magic. I just need to go back to San Antonio because I love Pop and I wanna have my last meeting with Pop.” And he was convinced there to stay. To me that makes more sense. Because if he was that adamant about it, I’m sure he would’ve at least asked.
Yeah, it's a funny story to think the plane cost the Magic a dynasty, but when you hear Duncan credited Pop to flying out to the Bahamas and bonding with him before he played a single NBA game, I don't know how serious Duncan actually was about leaving.
The most interesting What if got to be Rockets 🚀 get both Hakeem and Jordan.
probably for the best that this did not happen.
Great video, as always, but I dont really like the fact you're implying that Kobe and Shaq were already a real duo in 2000. Kobe, at that time, was really not the Kobe he came up to be later in his career.
If he was not Kobe we would not consider a Guard averaging 20 points a game on kinda bad efficiency to be on the same level as a Center averaging 30+ points and 15+ rebounds a game on really good efficiency. Remember that Shaq in the 00' finales averaged 38 points at 61FG% and 17.5 rebounds while Kobe was averaging 15 points at 36FG%. I do understand that Kobe was really good during some games/series but he was just really inconsistent.
They became a real duo (two players with a similar impact) later, I'd say in 02.
We almost got tmac and dwight howard
Lost a superteam to a woman.....Ain't nothing changed in some 20 years...
As a Magic fan I actually hate Doc Rivers 🥹
Leave it to Doc lol
Grant was injured while in Detroit but never recovered.
Doc Rivers been choking since
Da fucks a “stocks”3:14
I could give you a couple of reasons why Doc Rivers has been a horrible coach for years but the fact that he doomed the magic and tmac future still remains #1 so many years later.
They wun gone beat kobe n shaq until prolly 03 like the pistons if they get past the maybe
I dont know why you dont talk about the FIBA World Championship, its a great tournament
Thanks Doc!!! Spurs Por Vida!!!
Women really do hold a lot of asymmetrical power.
lakers got bailed out by the refs and weak finals comp from 2000-02
yeah but there's no way Tim Duncan ends up with 5 rings with Doc Rivers coaching them though
Thats facts, doc rivers lowers the ceiling if every team he coaches.
@@thatguyjoe3649 What about him doesn't work well with star players?
@fortynights1513 He's just not that good of a coach, and doesn't make the right adjustments and doesn't even develop players to make up for it.
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