Is there a problem with Hookless? SRAMs relentless IP filing!
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- There are so many more patents I could have discussed, these are just a few. Feel free to go take a look!
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Next SRAM IP filing: A double triangle structure were a wheel can be attached to the back. At the front a structure can be attached (a “fork”) where a second wheel can be attached.
Will there be a direction bar attached to the “fork”?
No next sram ip is probably an MTB front mech. The only reason their 1X system ever became a thing in the first place was because sram needed to market their way out of not being able to make a MTB front mech that worked properly.
@@alastairstedman7840 or maybe it's just much easier to only have to deal with one shifter when riding off road. There's more than enough gearing selection in a 12s 500+% 1x for MTB, not a chance I would ever move to 2x.
That sounds like a really "safe" bike, they should trademark the name SRAM Safety Bicycle. Surprised no one else ever thought of it... :D
Being an old fart I left hookless rims (and 1x groupsets!) behind in the 70's and seeing them come back is a bit like the vinyl revival for me. All very nostalgic, but after a few tyres blew off rims back in the day, best left in the past.😀
Tubeless Rims had it's problems back in the 60's/70's. 55-60 psi was the max back then and gluing the tires to the rim was common.
Sealant, even today, started to seal when the air pressure dropped down to 35-40 psi. For Mtn applications, it's a tolerant tradeoff.
TR hooked Rims should be the standard. Otherwise the Rim walls has be lengthen by a few mm and/or the tire sidewalls stronger and a few mm longer to set deeper in the rim . About 5-7 years ago, people were proposing a return to hookless rims but also requiring machines much like how automobile tires are mounted today. But there's a lot of resistance to losing the ability of tire changing and mounting tires by hand. Also, I'm sure many of you suffered from tires that are imperfect or out of round tires, so Improvement of tire manufacturing has to meet more accurate tolerances.
“Mildly boring engineering content” is why I joined your Patreon. Keep it coming!
Haha cheers mate
I’m more surprised by the people who didn’t realise the push for Hookless was only for the benefit of manufacturers, than I am the manufacturer trying yet again to market a product that only benefits them. I mean, it’s not like the first time this has happened. 🙂
Nice video, I’m impressed by your ability to do consistent and coherent takes while riding a bicycle. I struggle to do it just standing in a room!
Like integrated cables, road bike disc brakes, Integrated bar and stem combos, proprietary seatposts and forks and overpriced rebranded chinese carbon frames.
@@The2808erik yes 👍🏻
I guess they are nostalgic, since we had hookless tires before we evolved into hooked tires.
Been watching out for this promised video! Here are some rough notes I made while watching:
1) the reason you don't see many sram filings in the last couple of years may be due to the 18m period where applications are treated confidentially by the patent offices, The numbers up to end of 2021 will be accurate, anything beyond that is still in the "fog of war", so to speak.
2) you don't need a working prototype to get a patent, but the idea should pass basic muster and be plausible, e.g. you can't patent a perpetuum mobile or something clearly nonsensical. The requirements for something to be plausible depend on the area of tech: much higher bar for medical where you might need to already have results from studies showing efficacy of your active ingredient/preparation, much lower for mechanical engineering
3) it is not strictly advised to take an invention you developed at a company and go away and file for it yourself, because the company may have a case against you if the company can prove that you invented it while on their payroll and that it was an area of tech related to your job
4) patents can take years to be granted, depending on how badly the company wants a broad claim. having a patent pending for a long time can be advantageous because no-one knows how or when it will be granted.
5) the sram carbon rim patent has been granted in the US, CN, TW, but is pending in Europe. The independent claims are also limited in that "each of said plurality of strips extends less than completely around said radially inner portion, said first sidewall, said second sidewall and said radially outer tire engaging portion.", so whether the CN manufacturers may be infringing or not is unclear, for example if their strips extend completely around, that would be a good argument for non-infringement. Sram's priority date goes back to 2018, so to invalidate the patent you'd have to prove that this feature was known before then, either published or in a product or some other kind of disclosure.
6) that sram is willing to enforce their IP should be common knowledge by now, so it makes sense to check out what they've got cooking before developing a product. Campi had to be really careful with their new wireless groupset precisely because they didn't want to tread on sram's shoes.
Speaks the IP lawyer! Cheers for the comment 🤙👍
@@thefunktopuss930yes. Heres a high profile case for you. In 2016, Jaguar Land Rover sued Land Wind for copyright infringement and unfair competition before the Beijing Chaoyang District People's Court. Not directly patent, but copyright, which you may argue is harder to enforce than a patent. Certain Chinese groupset makers know they will get sued by Sram and Shimano. Both have a huge presence in management and manufacturing in Taiwan and China.
@@thefunktopuss930 A Chinese manufactured product that infringes a US patent can be legally seized at customs. Whether the agents inspecting it will know that it infringes is a different matter, but the US Patent law does absolutely prevent sale of a product that infringes a US patent. It also protects copyright and for that reason, bootleg DVDs of US copyright movies were also seized, when it was possible. But more to the point, Winspace can absolutely be sued in USA for selling a product that violates a US patent. And they would be careful, because they have money to lose in patent litigation. Once someone sues you, you have to defend yourself.
A friend of mine is a patent lawyer in London. The stuff Amazon is patenting around conveyor belts, for eg, is there 100pc to prevent competition, and not to protect their IP. SRAM here is doing the same. It's sad when a business focuses more on preventing competition with such shitty practices rather than by innovating and making great products. I don't think I'm ever buying anything SRAM ever again. Their 10T cassettes and small chain rings are dumb AF, their groupsets got heavy and ridiculously overpriced, zipp stopped being a category leader over five years ago, out with SRAM, in with competitors.
I vowed to never buy anything from SRAM about 6 years ago and I have been happy with that. I would rather buy from China than give them another dime of my money. I'm sure it doesn't hurt them but it hasn't hurt me either.
@@charlesmansplaining same here. SRAM are just sellers of snake oil and quite sleazy at that. I remember Sachs front mechs - lightweight, perfect shifting in all conditions - SRAM has bought the company with all their patents and failed to copy what was working flawlessly. Failure after failure, they have actually convinced people that by getting rid of the front mech completely, a rider will benefit both on rear shifting quality and ease of maintenance. PT Barnum smiles in his grave.
@@charlesmansplaining I’d buy SRAM over China any day of the week. And I hate SRAM
the last really good product from sram was red22 groupset
I suggest giving Campagnolo a try if you’re going with a mechanical group. Best hydraulic road brakes in road or gravel, rebuildable shifters, bilateral ergonomics, light weight, EU supply chain maintenance, family-owned business, very durable metallurgy chains and cassettes, and affordable at market prices in Chorus or Record.
Totally on board with your your appraisal of hookless rims. Always seemed like a problem looking for a solution to me. Hooked rims work for all riding condition. Nice and simple. Couldn't ask for a better design. Hookless rims have too many limitations and require too much careful consideration by the user as to whether they are appropriate to use or not. As you state. Mr. Torque, this is all about money and profits, not customer satisfaction.
Poor Hambini being stuck in the forest today... 👀 On topic: If the whole hookless is meant to be some sort of savings scheme, then why are ENVE and ZIPP still charging up to 4000USD for their wheels.
Shimano seems to have nailed the value/performance with their new C-series wheel set, Ultegra C50 can be found for as low as 1200 euros. Why would anyone pay 3500 euros for a pair of ENVE? They are just wheels, it's not like one is a Volkswagen Polo and the other is a Porsche Panamera, yet they make it sound like it.
I find surprising people don't buy hand built wheels for less money. If we don't support this trade then we not be able to get this service.
Ppl buy them because they have no brain
Cost has little to do with price. Price is what people are willing to pay, and people simply want the Enve name.
Because of profits. Companies do anything to lower the production cost. But they charge higher and call it "new tech" 🤣🤣🤣
Savings aren’t for the end user- it’s entirely for the manufacturer
excellent vid, reviewing patents with your engineering eye is interesting and quite unique value to your channel.
As for the patent on butterfly weave, if I learned anything from the law school IP course nearly 30 years ago, it's that patents are a lot easier to get granted than they are to successfully defend in court. But Sram is probably thinking no making the butterfly wheels has the pockets to stand up to them.
They'd be taking on virtually the whole Chinese carbon rim industry ... that isn't a battle they can win.
Agree, thats the problem with buying a new Giant , it will come with hookless rims. You also struggle to purchase a frame set only option and build your own bike up. Like the good old days!
Hey Teaque Pork, I tested out Galfer disc brakes after your video on possible resonance with elite wheels and shimano discs. I have found the last iteration of shimano discs (RT800) now produced in china, to be of poor quality and impossible to set up without squeeling. To test out if the squeeling was caused by possible resonance, I switched them with Galfer disc rotors. They have been flawless, even with prolonged braking at 70-80 kph, no squeeling, no brake fade, excellent performance. Check them out, excellen brake rotors.
Been using Galfers for several years, they're excellent and very light
Any proof to back up your claims besides a comment or is this just an advertisement?
@@twillyspanksyourcakes personal experience.
@@LMSscavenjer wasn't really talking to you but ok.
I'll try Galfer at some point. But a solid steel disc, is a solid steel disc in my opinion. What matters is the thermal mass, and surface area. They're all made from 420 which is actually a terrible conductor!
Using hookless rims on narrow road or gravel tires is crazy, even if you use foam inserts.
Developing a manufacturing technique to take away hooks and then stick them back on with glue at a later date? Genius!!!!
if you want to control people, make them feel bad, and then return it as it was
Motorcycles have a compliant member like that on the rear sprocket but that's more for managing the application of torque and not damping resonance. I wonder if you could just tune the wheel resonance just to push the spoke or rim resonance out of the range of any harmonic that the disc and pads create.
A motorcycle sprocket cush drive there is to stop combustion engine power impulses from completely destroying rear sprockets and rear tyres. Still absent in competition offroad motorcycles.
Purposely bought the previous generation 404’s for that exact reason. Way more versatile tire choice and overall a safer design on high pressure applications.
I did the tyre testing for Kristian's team at Sub7Sub8. We had to use Cadex hookless tubeless wheels because they were the sponsors and it was a launch event for the Cadex Triathlon bike. We knew the wheels themselves performed very well in wind tunnel tests on Giant trinity. We knew that the availability of hookless tubeless specific tyres was going to be an issue and I wanted to know what the wattage delta was to conventional hooked rims. So I tested hooked versus hookless on smooth and rough rollers with the same tyres (the ones which worked on hookless). What I found was that even on a smooth aluminium roller the same tyre run hookless (at the same range of pressures 80-100psi) the power consumption was slightly lower. On a rough roller the difference was magnified. I am guessing it is to do with the hysteresis losses where the bead is constrained by the hook. (all tests run at target pace of 52km/h).
Awesome contribution. Thank you!
Brilliant. Agree 100% with every word.
Would disc resonance be possible to reduce or mitigate with rubber rings/dampers that you sandwich between the disc and mount?
That's sort of what the patent describes yes, using a few different methods
@@PeakTorque maybe worth trying out DIY then
Good video bro 👍
Patent must still be pending for a front derailleur that works
Ouch 😅
😂
Best comment 😂
lol
Hookless rims in some conditions "Aren't Suitable" they mean ". Not Safe"
are you practicing low cadence for more aero?
Peak Torque what do your about the mech clutch on mountainbikes
Giant wheels have a higher tyre pressure allowance despite being hookless - the website tells me at 15stone to run 85psi on 25c continental gp 5000?
I think hookless rims were a great thing for mtb, they allow for a stronger rim as well as cheaper to make and the pressure required will never be too much.
Not sold for a road bike application though.
There’s no mandrel on a rim, it’s a retractable mold. Mandrels make tubes.
Hambini’s “hello!” 💀
Genuinely curious - what do you think of the Giant Hookless testing protocol? They claim you can exceed the ETRTO pressure guidelines with certain tyres that have passed their testing protocol (which seems reasonably solid?). Asking because I ride Giant Hookless rims, and have until now stuck to the ETRTO pressures but have spoken to Giant themselves about this.
Legally I'm not sure where you would stand on that and it may depend on what you have in writing and/or your legal jurisdiction. ETRTO also recently updated their minimum tyre width guidelines for wider rims, which puts a few brands at risk now. All i know is, 73psi on a smooth road on 25 or 28mm tyres...is costing me watts and that is proven!
At what rider weight would you say that the 73 psi limit would not be costing any watts on smooth tarmac? Do you know of reliable resources I could consult? Many thanks and keep up the great content. Cheers!
@@AstroCappuccino you could try and cross reference Silcas pressure calculator with the data on bicycle rolling resistance.com and see where the crossover is, but its all very theoretical. Luckily with the aero sensor i have use of, i can fix cda and optimise crr with pressures.
That butterfly weave patent is pretty disgraceful. Others very clearly have prior art, none of whom have tried to gatekeep it (nor should they), so SRAM shouldn't be applying for it in the first place. It shouldn't have been granted. And it's far too broad.
Brilliant.
Why so complicated? Wouldn‘t it make more sense to get the old tubular tape out and glue the tire to the hookless rim for things like Roubaix?
Good points on the disc squeal, never thought about it like that but maybe MTB wheels squeal a lit less because they are often 2-cross or 3-cross and there is no single resonance frequency.
how are you recording yourself on a bike with such good quality? I would expect a ton of wind noise?
I've learnt a bit about audio tweaking. And bought a decent mic. Also, when i do each segment i make sure (if possible) im going downwind so the airspeed is limited. If going into wind its tough to filter it out.
@@PeakTorque Cheers! I think it sounds great :)
hellu is back
I f*ucking hate hookless. Neither I nor the Trek service manager could mount a 25mm tire on the rim with an inner tube, like they're forcing down this tubeless path, and I'm not doing that shit. I sliced my arm open trying to mount their 25mm SES tire. I had to go up to 28mm tires, which yes, supposedly they're more comfortable, but the fact that the wheels dictated my choice and not my desire for increased comfort makes me angry. I'm still not 100% confident I can fix a pinch flat while on the road.
I'll add some hate for "tubeless ready" that's being shoved down our throats! If you just want to be left alone to use old-time tubed clinchers this rim design makes it a lot harder to mount/dismount tires. My wife's new bikes have these gawdawful things - I f__king hate 'em! I hope I never have to deal with hookless!
The "admitting" around 5:45 describes an explanation of a technical problem that can be solved by the invention. The problem might exist just for certain conditions as you have already stated.
Hookless rims might be optimized to be more cost efficient as compared to hooked rims. Making rims cheaper to produce AND providing the customer with cheaper rims might not be sooo bad. I do not know if the hookless rims are just viable in case of using disc rotors.
It's amazing that you can't even see the camera and stick, yet the shadow is there.
Those slanted brake levers look absolutely ridiculous
Shame its a shit load faster on the flat enabling a flat forearm position 🎉...tested and validated.
zipp 404 hookless - 70kg rider - 60 psi - fast and comfy as hell - no problems
Yeah well. Super serious cyclists and tiny people can go for it. Luggage donkeys, tall or fat or muscular people or folks that will go over a rock or root in the way or down some curbs, can't.
I'm so envious of these trails. 1 car??
If SRAM wanted to get a lock on something valuable, instead of putting the hooks back on a clincher rim, they should figure out how to mechanically key a tubular tire to a tubular rim. Needless to say, Zipp's tubular rims are obviously less expensive and lighter to manufacture than their clinchers, and this would potentially recover the very minor increase in RR caused by the glue....
I’ll just mildly upvote and comment.
Hookless 😂
I fail to understand how Sram can be granted a patent process on the butterfly weave, It is not novel (a primary condition for filing any patent) as it has been use for a substantial amount of time by many different parties. Second, patents are only valid in the countries that are signatory to international agreements recognising those patent laws and the filing bodies - as far as I know China has never been part of that agreement.
I've been riding and racing on hookless rims since they were released and have never had an issue.
I think it really depends on your weight. I run hookless 404s with 28mm continental at 72kg/160lbs bw wich makes around 4bar/60psi...so enough room to increase tire pressure although I feel more like decreasing even further🤷
Jay Vine crashed at the Vuelta - but look at his rear tyres -
m.czcams.com/video/aJB78dPVxm8/video.html hooked rims wouldn’t do that? The front looks to be partly off the rim too
Isn’t it illegal to leave company to purse patent that was thought at original company
The butterfly weave patent surely fails due to prior art.
How are you filming this? What voodoo is this?
😮 im wondering too - any ideas?
No way can SRAM enforce the butterfly design patent. There are bike frames with that pattern too, do they own that too?
I wouldn't be so sure about them not being able to enforce it. I would definitely do my homework before selling a product which may be infringing... There may be bike frames with that weave, but that would not be considered directly relevant as we're talking about bicycle rims.
They are narrow farm lanes that don't really go anywhere important (apart from farms!)
When the hooked carbon rims on my MTB failed (Reynolds AR), they delaminated right at the rim hook bead. It's hard to imagine that is coincidence, but the hook bead seemed to be a weak point on the rim. To Reynolds credit, they replaced the rim under warranty.
Oh and if you invent something and then leave a company and protect it, that's probably breach of contract and wouldn't, at least in the UK (and many other countries), mean that the company didn't in law own the invention (subject to the legal criteria for employee inventions). So leaving a company and filing a patent can lead to being taken to court by your former employer. Silly.
Yes obviously depends on your contract! And how related it is to the business etc.
I fail to see what hookless solves apart from lawyers bottom-line.
That damping patent from SRAM looks like a good way to add chattering - unless everything is within very tight tolerances and spotless.
Surely that butterfly weave is not "inventive" enough to be enforceable.
Industry will arrive to TL tires permanently bonded to hookless rims at manufacturing process. These tires will never roll off rim so much safer.
At a price of new wheel when tire gets worn down.
Never skimp on safety!
Calm down Satan.
🤣
GoPro MTB footage is cool and all, but you still haven't topped Boonen techno viking team presentation with Hello Hambini beats.
He's having a break this week
Might be more fun to make videos this way but they're not more fun to watch IMHO. Listened to it like a (gawd) podcast.
Hookless good business for dentists and plastic surgeons
I took one look at the tire selection of hookless and passed
wouldn't use a hookless rim even on my mountain bike.
Never mind tech, how about you rattle about training for a change. You fly along barely breathing so it might be interesting how you built and or maintain your level of fitness.
These might be better videos in the studio....
Ohh man i miss the days of no bs rim braked superbikes and girls that didn’t had an elephant down there.
Bit of a rant against patents there old chap. Most inventions are pretty simple when it comes down to it and your patent attorney doesn't validate the engineering principles because it isn't necessary, and it's the inventor's job to provide an enabling disclosure. Junk in, junk out. And are inventors really badly treated? Perhaps to an extent, but the reason the employer gets right in the invention (usually) is because they've already paid the inventor to come up with it, by employing them, and will then have to invest even more to take the back of the envelope description you've whinged about and turn it into a product. The reason most countries in the world have a patent system is because it is economically important to be able to protect ideas in order to do business. Also, you haven't considered that the only reason you even know about a lot of the technology described in patents is because they are described in patents. That's the deal, you tell the world and some time later everyone can use it. It is a bit old man shouting at the sea to complain about them.
Not in any way a rant against patents. I use them. Just exploring some of the interesting SRAM ones. Think you may have taken the video out of context.
@@PeakTorque Well you kind of did for the first few minutes. I don't think you really understand patents or how the system works tbh. You are in good company, so don't take this too hard.
Consider your comments on the drawbacks of hookless, for example. You think SRAM are somehow acknowledging this in their patent. They aren't, they are trying to build in inventiveness arguments for an overmolded hook, likely so that they can make hooked rims the same mold as their hookless ones. Being able to make something cheaply isn't inventive in most countries, so they need another reason. Making something that works better or has broader usage is an arguable technical advantage though, so the attorney has told this story. I don't know why you think that's not inventive, mind you. Seems quite clever to me. Similarly, I doubt the radiating layup of unidirectional tape in the Zipp patent is anywhere near as broad as you think it is, because you weren't talking about the claims by and large. The priority date could well pre-date the Winspace products or even Hunt's wheels I suppose, in which case I'll look forward to some ill informed article on road.cc or Velo later this year.
Post the patent number for the Zipp one and I'd be happy to give my take on that.
@@user-lc1vn7we1w i am named inventor on a number of engineering patents and have worked with numerous IP lawyers in the UK and China. I know how it works thanks though!
@@PeakTorque Ah, well in that case I am en engineer.
The Zipp patent in the US explicitly excludes the continuous winding techniques that I believe are used by Winspace et al. This was to overcome JPS61244602A which discloses composite reinforcement of an aluminium extrusion.
In the pending case in Europe, the applicant is trying to argue that a continuous winding does not constitute a "strip" and also adds the limitation that adjacent "stacks" of strips must overlap. So if you have a stack that doesn't overlap, or an overlap between continuous windings, this would not fall within the scope of the claims (based on a quick look at the case). I don't think they will get very far with the argument that a "strip" isn't anticipated by a continuous winding, but time will tell... The EP examiner has said that using unidirectional tape is inventive, however. Not sure why, because using unidirectional fibre is an obvious "lying in the road" development in of itself I would say.
In China it appears that the originally filed claims sailed through. Hard to judge whether this is because the 1980s Japanese case was not cited (in which case it is foolish in my view to covetously claim in this way) or because the internal definitions are considered by the examiner in China to exclude the prior art.
The headline overall is that SRAM/Zipp are trying to protect a rim that has been reinforced around the spoke holes by separate fan like stacks of reinforcement.
My best guess, not being an engineer, is that this construction saves weight c.f. continuous windings.
Hookless is brilliant. There are no smooth roads and they should stop make 28mm tires.
this may be kind of off-topic.
people are talking about tubes and tubeless setups, but there is no reliable information about tubulars from an engineering point of view. i know that i'm fixated on tubulars too much, but it would be nice to know if i'm right or wrong. there are no relevant comparisons i can find.
Its a good point, sadly i have no aero or rolling resistance data on tubulars
Hookless was predictable 😂
Someone train a machine learning model on road racing footage to determine cadence, speed, gear selection, and power in real time. Sell it to GCN for a bazillion Euro
If they continue on that vague patent claim, it will just be the same with Zipp and Princeton wave pattern losing. lol
Such greed capitalizing and elimating competition. Patent is there to protect real innovations not to block future ideas and breakthrough. 🤦♂️
Intellectual property is not a God given right. It's a recent invention and I think the world was better before the establishment of IP.
Yes, 1789 was a good year.
Pick up the cadence!
Glued on hooks - pfffft! Stupid is as stupid does - Just mold the bloomin things in properly, it's not like these companies can't afford the more complex molds. It is so basically and blatantly obvious that a hooked lip is safer and more versatile - talk about re-inventing the wheel! 🙄
It seems to be the American way. Build em cheap, sell em dear, and patent anything you can get away with, preferably stolen ideas.
cycleitalia.blogspot.com/2023/08/the-triumph-of-marketing.html
Argh this hurts my ears. I don't think you know that the claims are what matters, and you are reading bits of the description in isolation and thus out of context. I want to cry.
Your extensive SRAM-bashing is becoming increasingly boring. Is it really just SRAM that are filing a lot of patents to keep other manufacturers from using certain designs and production methods? Doesn't Shimano or Campagnolo file patents for the very same reasons? I would think it's common practice in the bike industry.