Is Pogacar pre-rotated?
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- čas přidán 15. 04. 2023
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Bigups to pogi for Amstel today, we'd planned that so i could release this vid with some extra clout 👍
He wasn't happy with his original bike and swapped as soon as he could once the lead group formed. What do you think differed with the bike he won on unless it was a mechanical issue
@@joshpower1073 i told him about the video on race radio, then he swapped
@Peak Torque slow puncture, seems his bike had an agenda to drop his saddle height for cda gains
Damn spoiler 😖
So you payed for the tow behind the car then…..
Love the commentaries while riding along, makes the video much more interesting to watch. Of course not forgetting the high quality information conveyed during that commentary, keep up the good work.
Keeps me from falling asleep on the z1 sessions. 2 birds with 1 stone!
Amazing that the sound is so clear without all that wind noise while riding!
Lovely video mate. Made total sense and with those graphics to show visually, even better!!
Thanks for this video. I always enjoy your engineer's perspective. Loving the low cadence too!
I live in a pretty mountainous place, love to climb a lot. I adjusted more tilt per your advice, and it really, really helped my overall fit (after many pro fits). Slid the saddle a tiny bit forward as well, first time my fit numbers have changed in a few years. Giant comfort/power improvement.
Good to hear! Keep tinkering never settle!
I liked this video. Very informative and thought-provoking. Worth the time to watch it. Thanks!
Super interesting video, thank you! I have noticed in the past that his seated power is ridiculously good but couldn't figure out why
There might be a reason in Pogacar’s physiology for the position he assumes too. Being a toe runner/ walker because of short Achilles tendons forces me to tilt forward to get the leverage, otherwise it feels like I’m not pushing down but forwards. as such the position reminds me of my own even but I can’t produce anywhere near that power. In other words, his position might not all be design, but also adapting to what he physically can.
Excellent insights! Many thanks!
Pretty interesting video and well done in regard of cycling along while commentating. Great. Thanks
been following ur channel recently and glad i discovered it.. although its one of the most subjective, complex, terrain/goal specific field.. u do a great job at hitting all the bullit points and hovering around them leaving it up to the audience ! U must be an excellent engineer 👍🏻ps: if some riders r blessed with freakish genetics to win well ur blessed with a brilliant loud and clear accent/voice for this stuff !
That is very kind thank you.
Your comment about his power output is the key. Plus, his upper body weight is lower then most amateur riders which reduces the pressure on his hands.
Thanks for your work and trying to make us normal mortals to understand a little more about cycling dynamics. 👍👍
Thank you so much for such an informative video!
Absolutely brilliant analysis!
love this kind of video! this has definitely influenced my next bike/equipment purchase. i'd love to hear more about drivetrain efficiency from you
That's covered in a video soon!
You might also check out Zero Friction Cycling for all things related to drivetrain efficiency. Though its a bit heavy on chain waxing……..
The pogitech thumbnail is pure art. Thank you for that.
Thanks for looking at this often under analysed but important facet of the bike setup.
Very narrow handlebar (38-36cm) which gives him that pendulum look when he attacks. Like a Griffon! Pure joy to watch.
It's an Enve Aero bar, and I think it's the narrowest which would be 35 on the hoods and 40 on the drops
narrowh\bincreasehiprotationforward
Excellent insight!
To me almost more important than when climbing is the need for a slight downward tilt of the saddle when I am in the drops. A saddle that feels a bit like it has too much downward tilt on the hoods, feels about perfect when in the drops.
Amazing video. I agree with you 100%.
Very interesting! Would've never thought about this myself!
Great subject and commentary on this video. How many of us went to the garage to check their position after watching this? 😂
Pog looks like an XCO rider on those cobbled climbs. Compact fit with low bar and steep seat tube. Absolutely the right setup for steep rough climbs.
Absolutely agree
seattube73
Nice to see out of the box video. Campagnolo is a high quality components maker and I usually see brand lovers as football team followers, stating "Shimano is an upgrade" without any reason for that.
I think they're would be a gain on the flats too, for me the single most important thing that keeps me from keeping the flat forearm position is sadel sore. Having it one or two degrees inclined helps reduce the pressure
Very very interesting stuff! 👍
Really interesting video. I've been riding and racing a V3RS for well over 2 years now, and it was a bit of head scratcher for me to get all the sizing right. I'm 6'4" and my previous bike was a Ridley Noah fast. An amazing bike, and I really enjoyed riding it, but it's a very stiff frame and on longer rides it just never compliant enough.
Having always hankered after a Colnago I decided to throw down the cash and give it a go. I was advised to go with the 56S rather than the 58S, because of the frame geometry. With a 120 Stem I found myself in a far more comfortable climbing position, and as you commented a much more open hip angle.
With more open hips it makes getting low on this bike is very comfortable, and having done many hours in the drops I've never had back ache, unlike the Ridley which used to leave me in a great deal of pain. I actually struggle to think of anything to complain about, I always find myself smiling getting on and off it, and I can imagine so does pog !
Tryed the saddle down, also the slammed forward saddle..landed at the physio after some months lol and than back to a bikefitter, now finally painfree again i was realy affraid i couldnt race anymore..switching to 38 bars with tilted inward hoods remained on my bike! I guess bikefit in the end has more to do with personal preferance and body composition
Great video! Totally agree fit should be course specific. Maybe not to the extent that Pogi is doing it but MTB guys can tell youabout the massive impact of dropper posts!
Side note: love the perspective in these videos! How are you mounting the camera here?
Only a few mins into the video. I have the book of Merckx and it was mentioned how often he changed his bike and position, with many of times losing sleep the night before a race and making adjustments.
Pre-rotation is exactly why I use an SQLab 612R saddle. If you know, you know
If you don't know now you know- Biggie
Loving this content
Keep up the great content, stay safe...
A lot info hadn’t thought about. Aero Comfort Dialed. I think to summarise Pod. Punches so hard. Looks great on the bike.
Good Chats... Mostly intrigued by that camera angle. Awesome for observing knee tracking. Is it a 360 on a selfie stick?
I think that you are 100% correct in your assessment of forward leaning down nose tilted saddles.
april1
Vingegaard was also running a super low seat height during the tt of Gran Camino this year and seemed to have copied that setup to his regular road position with the saddle slammed forward and a bit down. From a bike build video that Jumbo Visma did of the bike of Jonas you can cleary see that Jonas is running a saddle height of about 72.3/72.4 cm which is defo low for his height. There is for sure some info in the pro peleton that we not know right now about power production/ aerodynamic benefits of a lower and more forward saddle position. All this with a toe down peddaling style, forward rotated upper body and sitting on the tip of the saddle.
My seathight acco to lemond's formula recallcd to vinge's height is exactly 72.3; so not defo low at all FYI :)
@@theonlyrealbm it doesn’t work like that. If you look at Vingegaards knee extension it is less than the advised angle, which makes his seathight low.
@@theonlyrealbm I totally agree👍🏻
Really interesting points, such different body position to the old saddle slammed back on the rails climbing styles of years ago - couldn't take my eyes off the socks though.....
I never understood the logic behind that position and very bent over torso. Looks like torture
Which glasses are you wearing ? Great content, keep up the good work !
As a pretty tall rider myself (193cm) I was always using 0 offset seatpost with a seat in the maximum forward position but the bike fitters were always suggesting offset seatposts that in a combination with a very high seat position were putting way behind the bottom bracket. When it comes to the nose down position I only recently discovered it during my trip to Tenerife where I had to spend hours in a row climbing and it was a game changer
Its an absolute game changer for us to tall guys, i would say it's critical. I couldn't ride a flat saddle anymore, climbing just feels shit with it pointing up. However, bike geometry really doesn't suit us tall guys. Too much drop in most bikes
Same height and I do the same, no offset on seatposts and saddle quite forward with the nose pointed down a bit.
Mainly to relieve soft tissue pressure and to get into an aggressive position on my track bike.
Booked a bike fit this week cause I cannot find a saddle and I'm kinda worried the fitter is gonna go with cookie-cutter rules and put a setback seatpost, low saddle and raise the bars up to the sky.
@@PeakTorque
> Too much drop in most bikes
I'm happy riding my Defy endurance frame. I do desk work, dont ride that much, so when I do I'm happy to ride an endurance frame. I obviously notice the increased resistance but I find it easier to push harder for longer. Don't see any point in trying to force myself into some pro position.
Do you ever have issues with that position putting pressure on your hands on the hoods? Do you get numbness on hands then? thanks
@@kellrockets101 I personally don't have any issues but I also didn't go with an extreme saddle tilt, just a bit but it get's the job done
I never thought about the idea to change the saddle position according to the situation in the race. Jan Ullrich for example often sat on the very end of the saddle while climbing.
Yesterday I saw a video, where someone talked about carbohydrates, what each rider eats before the race. Sprinters get different food than helpers or time trail specialists.
About the fact that the riders are pushing so hard on the paddles while climbing, I remember reading in the book from Lance Armstrong, that someone in the car behind him often told Lance to sit in the saddle. He pushed, on the flat, so hard, that he barely sat on the saddle.
I LOVE THIS VIDEO. Purely from a personal standpoint, as a climber, I have always had the saddle slammed forward and felt more open at the hips when climbing. I've changed saddles over the years but I remember once when my saddle slipped a few degrees nose down I felt a so good that I left it there. It's hardly noticeable to the naked eye but feels good. It doesn't just translate to climbing for me, I've ridden non aero road bike TTs and there's something about the position I can't quite put my finger on but the power production comes easier, and the small point you made about Cda being improved with a slightly lower saddle height etc is proven with me, I've ridden some 20min 10s and 32min 15mile TTs in this same position.
Cheers Ed
We've had dropper posts for years. Now we need a saddle tilt/fore/aft on-the-fly adjustment tech.
As someone who visited the Campagnolo factory in Vicenza, I saw the chain production happening there. Not sure whether some lower level chains are made by YBN, but pretty sure Record and Super Record chains are made there.
Cool video! What software did you use to edit?
Hi there, what video kit do you use for your recording? Very impressive video quality and how do you set it up?
Oh I’m slowly getting convinced to swap out the 42cm on the fleet now. Mind you the new shim 12 hoods do bend in nicely now. I’m too old for this narrow bar lark.
Hope the Mechanic set it up to the mm! Good old Uci have rules on this, min on 5cm saddle/BB layback and limit to saddle tilt!
i have mtb bikefit in the year 2021 when i brought new xc hardtail 29er and it really works if you stay whit one bike fitter.
Agree on campagnolo vs shimano drive trains. I've noticed very similar wattage between record and dura-ace
great topic. position/fit is an interesting biomechanical (even mental) puzzle. it's all about 'sensations' on the bike.
2:45. Had never thought about seat height to frame for CDa. Are we saying that a slightly larger triangle and less seat pin means less body whacked air more aero. Never had thought about this
I have that particular saddle, and the rails are really far forward (compared to other saddles I own) & I sit really far back on it. I completely agree with your assessment of his fit, but it looks even more extreme than it is because of the saddle design.
On my 12.7 kg adventure bike, I keep my saddle slightly lower than usual for trails, and the nose is angled down because I love to tuck like hell. I always wondered why it was so comfy when climbing in the saddle, and now I know why! Might be time to make adjustments on my Specialized Venge
I've been watching/enjoying your videos for a couple years now - love your content, pls keep them coming..
I finally do have a slightly geeky question for you regarding Shimano's current DA9270 - I've noticed that all the FD9000 front mech cages featured in advertising and CZcams videos appear to have a satin black finish, with silvery DA branding etched on the outer cage. Mine has a shiny chrome finish, with same laser etched branding.. is this something you've also seen or is this news to you? Mine works brilliantly btw, no complaints regarding shift quality or speed but I'm just curious as to why this is?
great video, would love to see another with bikefitjames on this topic though
I have a similar setup since I do more steep technical offroad climbing underbiking on my monstercross bike
Agree on the saddle nose down a little. Opens up hip angle and possibly opens up the femoral artery
If you look at a Saddle like the SQlabs (backside higher than front), than you can move your hip and its more like nose down without the discomfort.
Absolutely agree with your observations and it really surprises me that there are still riders who stick to wide bars… His position caught my eye some time ago, but it was super obvious during Flanders that he is doing things differently than Wout or MVdP. What is curious to me is - with his super low saddle, he still manages to push high wats. I struggle if my saddle is 3-4mm lower than to what I am used to…
I feel like I am more powerful with a very low saddle, but I start getting strain on my it band and hip flexors
What surprises me is that even with the saddle so low and a reasonably low position his hip angle is still comfortably open. Does he run short cranks too?
@@Al.2 not really, he's on 170mm this year. Nothing too drastic.
There have been studies that show power loss from having a saddle slightly lower than preferred height is a lot less than the saddle being slightly higher than the riders preferred height.
@@Al.2 he's a pro, he probably just has really good hips
Its obviously not slowing him down, but you can see when Pogo is riding solo on the flat, he is sitting a bit upright, compared to Remco’s pancake-flat back. I wonder if he would go even faster if he worked on that.
Yeh i agree. May be something to do with his super low saddle.
@@PeakTorque I have a feeling he can not produce the power he needs to if he changes his position to something like remco
@@Phil-dx8rw Such a position makes it difficult to engage the glutes though; may not be for everyone.
Remco seems quite quad dominant so it may not hurt him, maybe he adapted to it and can use his glutes a bit more on the climbs with the gradient rotating him around the bottom bracket.
Pog's power seems to come more from the hips.
Thats why its mostly not a good idea to draw conclusions from pro positions. Evenepoel and Pogacar have completely different positions and both are crazy successfull with it. What they have in common though is a heavy forward position but everything else is pretty different
@@WesternUranus I think you nailed it. Two different positions for two different physios. Remco is all quads and Pog seems to be just as you said.
That Pogacar is "one of the most dynamic bike riders in the peloton" has to the understatement of the year. Please tell us something that everyone doesn't already know-:). Nice video and very informative.
There's a lot to this road bike lark. Only been into it for 10 months or so myself and usually ride an enduro style 170mm mtb. Diff ball game. The body doesn't seem to like it much. I find if the seat is level the pelvis can rock around a bit, but with 0.5 - 1.0 degree forward tilt it seems to hold it a little better.
I've had issues with too much weight on my hands and very bad neck pain after 2 + hour rides. Lowering the bars an inch and raising the seat sounds counter intuitive, but it has helped a little. Being long in the body means a comfortable fit can be tricky. Still trying various things.
More tricep, neck and back strength required. Hoping if I stick at it the body will attune. A lighter head and new spine would do the job nicely.
I think he's using the narrowest Enve Aero bar which is 35 on the hoods and 40 on the drops
Tried the saddle slammed forwards position but found it way too quad dominant! It's a comfortable position for short blasts though
È l'analisi più esaustiva e precisa che ho sentito sulle varie posizioni che adotta Pogacar .Complimenti molto professionale 👍👍👍👍👍
Good comments. I thought Pog's seat was set quite low today in Amstel but didn't spot the saddle angle itself. MTBs have gone for much steeper seat angles in recent years (76 deg+), so maybe road bikes will start to follow this trend. As ever, the road world is much slower to embrace new tech and ideas. We need the innovative 'mtb' companies to make some road kit, as the 'road' manufacturers are way more conservative.
There is definitely a benefit seated climbing with steep STAs but it does come at a compromise of your out of the saddle position because you have to get in front of the saddle...much harder to do when the STA is 76deg vs. 73 or 74deg. I've been dealing with that most of my cycling life coming from racing singlespeed, but also being relatively short and a bit leggy compared to torso length, so I need a high saddle but short cockpit for reach. The steep STA doesn't help.
The other benefit and also why its so prevalent on MTBs is the boost spacing, wide tires and room for suspension travel while keeping the CS length within reason. From a manufacture standpoint, its much easier when you're getting an extra 5mm or so room for wheel travel especially if the suspension is a single pivot and the axle path is a pretty static arch.
bloody right....mate
P.Sagan´s setback on Paris-Roubaix was interesting
What cycling gear are you wearing? I like the look of it.
This bike fit seems to be most common with people who have relatively long legs and short torsos. Also seems to wind up with highly developed hamstrings and not as much quad development. It'd be interesting to see where Pogacar sets his shoe cleats. I'd guess they are slammed rearward. Adam Hansen's fit was sort of like this (he would even take a setback seat post and flip it 180).
Agree he is very toe down, which is odd for someone with such a low seat. Clearly not uncomfortable otherwise he may heel drop to extend the leg
@@PeakTorque When my seat is too low I tend to point a bit more as well.
It feels more like I'm pushing more perpendicular to the crank arm at the bottom by getting my foot in front of the pedal.
Otherwise it feels like my knees hit a concrete wall.
Maybe that's what he does ?
Naw you set your cleats too far back you get hot feet. As the force is going through for soft tissue behind the metatarsals.
@@cbyod this is false
@@thedownunderverse your mother
Sure, it's all about the bike and other equipment. No surprise for an engineering guy - it's like to everyone with a hammer everything's a nail. The guy is a RACER (like Nibali) while too many others are radio-controlled RIDERS. He could win on any team riding any bike - may it ever be so!
Thanks for making this video. As an older cyclist I never heard about this geometry shift during hill climbs that you could incorporate into the saddle nose-down set-up. It will take some practice as the nose-down does feel quite foreign.
I also wanted to mention another geometry positive about Poga's setup. In all of the race shots of him, his wrists are very neutral with only a slight bend. This should help with counteracting any additional force transfer he has from dropping the saddle nose when riding on the flat sections. Would you agree?
Really interesting! I really do like a ‘slap in the face wake up call’, so totally obvious, that it never crossed your mind, moment in learning.
Yes it's amazing that even pros stick to what is "conventional" rather than what feels better or makes sense from a practical point of view.
How do you avoid putting too much weight on your arms/wrists when on the flats or descending if you put your saddle is in that position?
🤔 is your right knee not inline with your pedalstroke?
Yes very much agree. I have been doing that for years. One of my best performance 112 miles 12,000 feet I moved the saddle forward, 3dg down, raised handle bar 5mm and 10mm longer .
My friend don't there change a thing and even though they all are better climbers then me I finished 15 minutes ahead of them.
I wonder if this position Pogi keeps is the reason he's not dominating anymore on ITT, his position and hip flexors are adapted to do exclusively punchy climbs out of the saddle unlike Remco or Roglic that are very aero on the flat.
They already make a saddle angle adjustor
company is called Aenomaly Constructs
2:44 Good point, before the "Hero Dolomites" I brought my montainbike to a steep hill and set it up for what I was going to be doing 96% of the race 😂
If im not mistaken, his saddle is on very forward position. Like a TT saddle.
Great video. I really like rotating my hips under and finding that I can't do so when I'm climbing and the power is harder to sustain. Curious to see how pointing my saddle down may help this.
increasecadencedecreasehiprotation
decreasetorqueitseasetospin
hiprrotationitstorquecadenceisrpm
I use a similar setup which makes climbing easier and able to get behind the saddle when it's slammed forward. I ride technical singletrack on my monstercross bike and it works.
ifyoukneegowsforwadanddownyourshipbackanddown
rightwayhipupandforwad
I'm 6ft 2 and always had a nose down saddle, slammed all the way forward on the rails and with a decent drop. 100mm stem, 40cm bars.
It's just feels natural. I don't have too much weight on my hands and neck or shoulders. I just feel more at one with the bike.
If you have a flat saddle, lowering it by 3 degrees seems to be best. The important thing is that the front of the saddle is level so there is no back lean. This is because there is no pressure on the perineum so that the pelvis can be rotated forward properly.
ifyouwalklikeductyoupedallikeducthipsforwad
Hmm most riders in the peloton seem to be using quite flat saddles from their saddle sponsors but there are saddles out there that provide plenty of support when your centre of gravity shifts during climbing, and also have a "dropped" nose that allows you to lean forward without increasing perineal pressure, probably Pogi is just trying to get the most of his equipment, but it does not necessarily mean that that saddle fits him best. Same goes to shoes for many riders. At the end of the day, in my view saddle angle is an output of your fit not the other way around, your body and riding style (and the shape of your specific saddle!) will determine what works for you. The combination of those factors results in a certain saddle angle.
nonsens
Are you sure Campy chains are made by YBN? If so, which ones? I was under the impression that Campy brought chain manufacturing in house starting with their Record 10sp
Didn’t Redshift make a seat post that can change position(specific to TT and road cycling)
Nice exposition.........makes sense to me.
Wish there was a reliable dynamic electronic / mechanical saddle angle adjuster that would fit all the ********* proprietary seat clamps. Like you I run nose down due to long legs (and sensitive gooch). Wish I could nose down dynamically a lot further on steep climbs - take it over a dropper for downhills any day, given a binary choice.
The Aenomaly Switchgrade is something for MTBs that does this and is compatible with a lot of seatposts, not sure if it works on any road seatposts though. I also found it too expensive for me to justify buying it. I feel like MTB tech is much further ahead as far as on the go adjustability is concerned.
Would you be able to offer an explanation as to why when the pros have such a low seat height they don't appear to get cramps in the quads? Chris Froome rides with a low seat same again doesn't appear to cramp. Yet all the bike fitters suggest higher seat rather than lower!! Very helpful video by the way.
This is good content
Some Marketing Men in action at 9:00
i ride in the hills ( 30 km ride has about 550-600 metres of climb and if its 50 then its about 800 metres of climb ) i have slight saddle tilt. but not sure about the slamming saddle ( as i use the ism saddle ... which means at 'full forward'' it would be even further than a normal saddle...
any suggestions ?
Gilbert would change his bike set up for different races also. Great discussion
So many people are going to try this from this video and realize very quickly why every bike fitter in the world advises against forward saddle tilt for non-pros. Just like putting a ball on an incline, you’re just going to find yourself sliding down and constantly readjusting yourself.
That's not true if you have the proper reach setup correctly
The pro's are pushing 'so damn hard on the pedals' - That's why it works for them. Us mere mortals will end up with too much weight on our hands causing problems.
Soft hands problem 😂. Nah, you have to adjust to you capabilities, take the approach as far as it works for you
My neck agrees.
@@serdiezv There's not such thing as hard hands in cycling. There is such a thing as ulnar compression neuropathy.
@@cjohnson3836 don't worry I was joking. The serious part is the second part of the comment, just go as far as you feel comfortable, there's no point in setting your bike like Pogačar if you're not him.
Disagree. Im 90kg and have been riding this kind of position for years. Terrible core strength and never had numb hands or soreness there.