Arch User Reacts To Linus Tech Tips Linux Challenge Pt 2
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- čas přidán 11. 07. 2024
- The second episode of the Linus Tech Tips linux challenge is out and this time we're tackling game streaming under linux, this is something I am incredibly familiar with so I hope the commentary I add gives some extra context for why and how the issues occur
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The fact that Windows treats bat and powershell files differently isn't an argument against my point that Windows also doesn't let you double click to start powershell script files, if anything it's a design flaw in Windows that it's configured like that by default. It should be treating them the same way and if you want it to there is a way to change it
Pin this comment
@@berdinskiybear I clicked pin when I posted it, why does CZcams do this to me
The thing is, windows will open a powershell script in the ISE, which has a run button. While it may not immediately execute, it at least opens the file in something that CAN run the file.
And that's exactly the problem with the Linux community. Why is windows running a .bat file in command prompt on double click considered to be a design flaw. Just accept the fact that Windows and Linux has different default behaviours on script execution instead of arguing that it is wrong. The Linux community will never be able to bring in Windows users if they don't provide a smooth transition for them.
Meanwhile, Windows in embracing Linux and I as a developer don't need Linux as my main system since I always have WSL to use.
Its time the Linux community learns from MS just like MS learned from the Linux community.
@@sayakmukhopadhyay
The design flaw is that Windows has different behaviour than Linux, it is that the behaviour is inconsistent between two very similar file "formats". But you'd know that if you actually read the comment.
Windows apologists are legit worse than all the Linux evangelists.
Wish I could put both of the groups into a bag and sink them to the bottom of the ocean.
The time of the month where all my favorite Linux video makers react to LTT
as for that end segment... It is absolutely a mindset thing, but I think the frustration is totally warranted and not unfair at all. An average user is NOT going be excited to switch to linux with zero expectations of things working; their computer and peripherals were working totally fine before, so it is absolutely reasonable and valid to expect they should continue to work. And trying to get the average user to change their mindset is basically a Sisyphean task (for the past 6+ years I've been trying to demonstrate to people that if they just take the time to learn a new skill, the Steam Controller is actually an incredibly powerful controller... no luck. And thats just a controller, not an entirely new way to use their pc as a whole).
Its why I dont blame Linus at all, not even the 20% or whatever he wanted to take ownership of in the wan show, for nuking his desktop environment due to that bug that thankfully has been precluded at this point. Anyway... To the average user, installing Steam is routine. It should never throw an error. When it did, its almost as if the error doesnt register because its so far out of the norm for an average user - especially when the command line is involved - that they are basically blind to it because all they want to do is install steam and this is frustrating and do as I say and install steam. Its why I think changing the confirm message to "yes break my system" isnt going to work either; installing steam shouldnt break the system what is this nonsense? The average user isnt even going to be aware its a red flag until they've made that mistake.... and honestly the average user will likely give up at that point and go back to windows/mac.
The truth is that while Linux *can* work... it is no where near in a state it can be viable for the average user. Everything from hardware compatibility (goxlr, canon cameras, etc), to all the tiny concessions that get made (not all obs settings working, audio being ehhh at times due to sample rate issues they never faced before, etc), to the - as they put it in the wan show - whole using the command line as a crutch (for the average user, linux is competing with os' that yes do have a command line but its rarely if ever needed because a gui exists for basically everything)...
I look forward to getting my Steam Deck and seeing what I can do with Linux, but LTT's daily drive for a month challenge is giving me significant concerns. I've got a bunch of projects going on in my life right now. While I dont mind learning a new OS, I DONT have the time to be constantly fighting my system just to get things to function as they should.
Given how old Linus and Luke are I'm disappointed. They should have some experience with DOS gaming and sadly Linux gaming is a bit like going back in time in terms of what you have to put up with. Piss poor support when there is support, and ease of nuking your system if your careless at a command line...
I get it that things should be better but it's also a bit of a bellwether for how spoiled modern gamers are with ease of use.
@@rvaughan74 really now, it's spoiled to want an easy access to your games? are you serious right now?
I'm probably older than Linus, and I have experienced the ms dos environment and loaded my games in it, it was fine nothing too complicated, but then windows environment simplified things, and that's their winning point.
now as a working adult with limited time and too much in my mind, I'll take the one click to load a game and relax, over remembering and typing the names in command prompt (which I haven't used in a million years).
the reason ppl will never turn to linux in masses is precisely that behaviour, so get off your high horse we know that windows is not perfect but at least we get the job done in a simplified way, you have a million and one distros for linux and you deny that there are inconveniences and you rather blame the average user who has no knowledge on the inner working of an operating system instead of acknowledged the shortcoming. (I don't mean linus, but the users he specifically had in mind when he did the changE)
and before you dismiss me as a windows fan or whatever you are thinking of me.
I can't change my operating system because all the software I use for my work are only supported by windows (not even mac)
but I have an old vista laptop that still works, and couple of years ago I wanted to make it a linux machine so I could learn a new skill, guess what, I had my brother who is both computer scientist AND a linux user for years to help me with getting the lappy fixed, but no distro worked (couldn't even format and install so go figure, lines upon lines of command prompt text only to stop midway and do nothing) and the lappy remained a bloated vista mess. I had a copy of win XP lying around so couple of days ago managed to format it and get XP to work, so the problem was not the lappy but whatever bug the distro had.
"spoiled modern gamers" THE AUDACITY! 🙄🙄🙄
@@harukaru84 Sigh. The part about "Piss poor support when there was support." is more about how for PC Gaming it wasn't a smooth ride right from the start. It's telling that some of the biggest whiners I've seen when personally helping out with Linux don't even like to take the time to set up a board game. Yes they can be VERY spoiled.
As to the rest of your comment thank you my mouth is now very full of words and opinions that aren't mine. My fault for being brief. Linux isn't perfect I get that. I'm not a zealot and usually tell people to work with Linux in a VM before jumping in like Linus did. You end up with an experience closer to Luke's that way. Not perfect but a damn sight smoother. If Linux will be useful at all.
@@rvaughan74 To some extent, desktop Linux is in its "Windows 95" stage of development. Lots of things work, but a lot of things are going to be wonky. I had to return a few games back then because they simply would not run on my machine for some reason. It was quite an improvement from Windows 3.1, but it had a long way to go to be truly usable. Getting different graphics cards and sound cards to work back then was often a nightmare.
@@johnneiberger7311 I suppose so but the sad reality is that the graphical environments for Linux are never going to be as thoroughly integrated as say Windows XP where DOS was finally being left behind. I only said Win 3.1 to truly drive home the separation. Though in terms of how badly you can bone yourself on the command line DOS+Win3.x is very apt in the analogy.
"Unofficial" being interpreted as "Unsupported" seems reasonable as "Unsupported by 1st party" which can be perceived as incomplete or buggy. Coming from a closed-source to FOSS it is an expectation reinforced by basic things like Nvidia closed drivers vs nouveu. I'm glad Linus has taken this on and the community is reacting to it as this is another push that can get Linux over the line. I've had Linux running on VMs, SBCs and on special purpose appliances and haven't changed to it for gaming because I don't want to spend days of limited gaming time diagnosing why the desktop doesn't work.
Woah, just noticed Luke installed the Flatpak version of OBS that's found in the Linux Mint sofmanager, a true warrior right there
I think technically the lack of device support is a developer problem, and usually there are workarounds, but that fact doesn't change that the average user expects their hardware to work. Whether it's official software or robust community made software, hardware in general needs better compatibility to continue to make Linux a more viable option for average users.
What you said about how you should expect nothing to work is a good way to approach it if you're excited to switch to Linux, but if you're an average user just looking for a Windows/Mac alternative, that's absolutely terrifying, and the vast majority of people will choose to keep their hardware rather than re-purchase and re-learn more compatible stuff.
Great answer, which I agree
@@bobbybologna3029 I suppose that is a fair point. I definitely think there's room for improvement with most of my hardware, especially with UI and just generally knowing how to install it, but with that said, I have no major issues, so you're definitely right there.
Linux has come a long way but for the average user it's still a rough transition, it's why I always worry when you see posts saying "I installed Linux on my entire families computers" that's great but you never see the follow up post where they become tech support
Having A way to make VM contained software with all of its specific settings needs put into some form of distributable package would be useful for making essential hardware support for things we simply cannot reverse engineer, and it would be A great help towards converting many professional segments of the potential user base that rely on windows only configuration tools for their essential hardware.
Just think of all of the businesses using windows vista because of the tools they cannot replace.
@@BrodieRobertson I was already tech support in many of ppl I converted to linux anyway.
Actually, I'm not as much required as I was before. they are simple users
I appreciate Linus's brutally honest approach. Especially as it will be seen as a call to action by developers (Pop!_OS has already begun work to make sure nobody will ever again experience what Linus did)
But it is frustrating that Linux gets treated as a second class citizen because Windows is king of the hill.
Why, you don't treat the peasants as the king...
They should manage to become kings, too. (OK, the king analogy doesn't really work since it's hereditary. 😁 Probably a VIP vs. a "peasant", a nobody is better.)
For Me he just Staged and his hate for Pop and Manjaro is Cringe...
@@exnihilonihilfit6316 Windows can be Destroyed witn Simpe Zero Ring Attacks or a Simple malware.
that boy ain't right...
14:45 Totally agree, we should stop advertise that Linux can work without restart. My machine can restart in 15 seconds. I'm not going to jump though 2hr tutorial to have a chance that my system can work without restart. Every time I update my arch, something always stop working in a weird way (network slow, no sound, can't detect usb drive, etc), restart machine always solve them.
Ubuntu distros don’t tend to break that easily, so you don’t tend to need a reboot unless updating the kernel
@@SnowyRVulpix True for Ubuntu-based distros.
however, I still work on upgrading a few minutes before I intent to reboot
@@SnowyRVulpix you mean debian
I used to manage around 25 workstations in my university science lab, and I could absolutely never "just reboot" because there were always jobs running or people doing work on the machines. So I taught myself to fix problems without rebooting and it can absolutely be done. Linux is rock solid and will keep running almost no matter what you do to it. These days, with systemd, it's even easier, you can always restart a service. My Linux box at home, and my Raspberry Pis that run pihole, I practically never reboot.
No, I just think we need to be clear about the use case. I use arch for my home server through ssh most of the time, and I never have to restart it. And that's where that's also really important, you don't want to have all your server applications go down because you did pacman -Syu and had to restart. But yeah, the desktop environment itself, that one you do have to restart sometimes (which can be as simple as logging out and back in most of the time).
It seems like this genuinely is very good for linux distros because they're highlighting experience issues both with products and distros that are likely to hit a new user regardless of how dumb, who want to game and stream which is an audience we _should_ be targeting. Especially in prep for the influx of users post steam-deck. Some of these are going to be fixed like hourse or days after the video goes live, and it's a sign that maybe we need more things like this. We've gotten so (rightly) defensive to people mindlessly shitting on linux that I think sometimes we get defensive in a way that prevents important growth. I do agree that running scripts as the default is probably a dangerous default, extremely convenient as a developer though.While I certainly think it's aspirational to think that everything should just work, I do think it's attainable at least for 80% of users. I do blame github for the right click download, and I think it's dumb as hell that it works the way it does presently. I'm nearly certain there is a way to have a different target for download than for navigate, even just a simple download button would be good.
About the github thing: The problem is that it only saves without a file extension on linux (only using the name of the file, in this case "install.sh"), while on windows it saves as an html (as "install.sh.html").
This way the user has no clue he did something wrong, unless he inspects the contents of the file, and even if he does, he needs to know about the difference in html and shell script syntax to know he did something he was not supposed to.
@Dakota Keeler yah but you can change the right click to how google drives website does where you right click and a different kind of options are available which are custom developed for those webcontrols
@@satejkokate410 EXACTLY. Yeah there's literally no reason not to interrupt the click event to give a more sensible option. Anyone who wants to circumvent that can easily do so by disabling javascript.
@@ARVash no you genious most pages won't even load if you disable javascript nowdays this isn't 2007
I like your tone and take. You try and keep an open mind and go through how something might make sense to think even if it's not the optimal solution.
Overall great video, I like your content more every time I see it.
Linus and Luke are approaching this to see if Linux can be switched to without any compromises imo, which is reasonable based on how the community often refuses to admit this is the case lol.
Some more specific thoughts:
3:14 - Apt - you are the only Linux veteran I've seen with this take! It's so common sense, I've brought it up before but was shot down. It's especially important for "apt-get" because many Window users considering Linux have heard of apt, but haven't heard of pacman for instance.
4:30 - OBS (unofficial support) - it's not too hard to empathize and realize from the POV of someone who might consider OBS "unofficial" support to be a "hack-job".
7:22 - Keyboard Master - I wonder if this just came up as the first result on a Google search, so Linus concluded it was popular. On Windows for a similar situation, this wouldn't be an unreasonable conclusion to draw. He's also very busy and has a family - he might have had more time to research on these topics if he was younger.
16:10 - Pacman, Pamac - it's not unreasonable for Linus to be confused about Pamac not including flatpaks and snaps by default if he didn't know the history and context of these things
20:50 - Luke driving to the store to pick up a cord for this camera - Luke isn't yet invested in Linux to the point of rationalizing wanting to buy new hardware for it, which is reasonable at this stage. That's something that comes later on as one grows to appreciate Linux more.
Yeah I'm surprised by people expecting him to know about apt and pacman. I remember the first time using Manjaro and finding out the apt was not being used. It then clicked to me that apt is not a Linux thing but more of a Ubuntu thing. Also I read many comments saying that they are surprised he doesn't know how to use git clone. But he's not a developer so he wouldn't need to know git.
I agree with everything you said in this comment. Well said
11:40 Actually, Windows has a system for managing in which app each extension should be opened. That means that, with a few clicks, you can have your sh scripts be opened by the script-running executable, or by whatever other application you want it to. Only .exe, .msi, and I think there was one more, don't have that option, and that is because they are opened as applications, so people don't brick their system. So no, in this particular case, you are not correct. For example, there are tools to have a .php file open in a browser with the localhost address of that file ran through the server, in Windows, for example. So although .php is a script, one can have it run like an executable, by having it opened with an application which does that. It might be more dangerous than opening the file with a text editor, but then again, that's why different files have different icons, and executables can have any icon, so people know what they are risking by opening said file/executable. By the same logic, running a random script off the internet is the same, since most people don't read a long script line-by-line to understand what it does, they just run the thing and hope for the best. Sure, it might be open-source and all that, but that doesn't change the risk factor, just makes it slightly more likely for people with the know-how to find exploits, and that both makes it more likely for the bugs to be fixed, and makes it more likely for the bugs to be exploited, so not much has changed there. Honestly, I hope for the day when Linux will become more like Windows from that point of view, and when apps like Wine and Lutris would allow us to just double-click a Windows app and have it magically working, even at a loss of efficiency.
for clarification, I think Linus is comparing *.sh and launching in shell to Windows *.bat files which does by default run in CMD
He may be doing that but the comparison with PowerShell is just as similar
@@BrodieRobertson not really and normal users don't use PowerShell.
If a normal user wants a small script on Windows, they will use either a bat or vbs file.
@@deth3021 normal users don't use bat or vbs either
@@deth3021 As Brodie said above, Windows is designed that normal users never know of the existence of CMD and Powershell, but yes, in this case bat files can be excuted with a click which is the og for scripting in Windows, so both fair points.
@@BrodieRobertson yes they do.
Lots of sw get delivered with bat shell files as wrappers etc...
So a lot of ñormal users use bat files.
I think the LLT Linux desktop evaluation is pretty fair from Linus and Luke. They are both above the average knowledge level user, and both still having some issues. People should expect their computers to just work. When you get to the end-user level things should just work, period. I think the difference is that Linux on the desktop isn't there. It might never be there without direct hardware company support. You can only get so far on enthusiasts' backs.
With their windows experience at least Linus falls into the trap of expecting things like file extensions to work like in windows. I also see little initiative to research the linux fundamentals at least a little bit. The apt installation problem like the "yes i know what i am doing" problem of removing his desktop from the previous episode would have been avoidable if there was some motivation to understand what the command response does say. The githup episode has been more a problem of him using a webbrowser and github wrong. The same would have happened on windows. That the hardware manufacturer of the lights does not provide drivers for linux is more a problem of the hardware than of linux.
From my experience in both Windows and Linux i feel things are usually more straight forward in Linux and it can provide an all in one package for a basic user out of the box with the default install while on windows you really want additional programms like a good texteditor or a different media player and have to hunt them down and install them.
On Windows there is a system environment variable called PATHEXT which specifies which file endings get executed.
By default it is set to .COM .EXE .BAT .CMD .VBS .VBE .JS .JSE .WSF .WSH .MSC
I vaguely remember somehow overwriting this in regedit or something and suddenly I couldn't start anything anymore because windows kept asking me what program to use for opening .exe files. Conversely I never got back into regedit to undo what I had done and had to do a fresh install 😂
12:00 about scripts on Windows, it seems to be true for Powershell but what about .bat and .cmd batch files? I often come across batch scripts which you can execute just with a double click and editing it is a secondary option in the right click menu. Executing it launches a cmd.exe terminal window and it does its thing. If it needs an input, lets say a folder it's going to be working on you can even drag and drop the folder onto the script in the file manager and it will still work instantly. On Linux i pretty much always first have to open a terminal and only then execute the script or binary from within the terminal and provide arguments if it needs any.
Or what if i have a binary executable on Linux which needs to be run in a terminal? i believe double clicking it does nothing whereas on Windows it will open up a terminal window.
Depends on the file manager. Nemo for example allows you to run a binary or a script but after a warning. Nautilus doesn't at all.
@Watcher I was using it today, works just like Windows (but better)
If I recall correctly dolphin just launches programs/script without terminal
@@kajoma1782 Yeah, I think you need to use "run in konsole" accutually, sorry if I got this wrong
@@zekicay Nautilus allows you to run executable binaries/text files, but it requires you to enable that behavior in the settings menu.
Edit: I think this used to be true on older versions, now the only way to run a text file is to right click and select "Run as Program"
I feel guilty now for being one of those who voted to recommend Manjaro for Linus. I should have just voted for Ubuntu.
he was going to conger up some fake drama no matter what... it's what fuels his channel...
So that he has an even older kernel with even less hardware working ootb, and have to struggle with PPAs instead of just using the AUR? Idk man
The only problem he would not have run into would be the pacman vs apt one. The roles the two are playing are quite obvious, Linus represents the user that has been told switching to linux is easy and solves all his problems, while Luke represents the more cautious changing type. Which also explains one of the things Luke said after the challenge, that he is going to keep running Linux for a bit longer, as he found some things, not all a bit easier to do than on windows.
Changing OS is always going to throw you some curveballs, i experienced them going from windows 3.11 to win95, and ever subsequent version. I experienced them when first dabbling in Kubuntu, when switching to mint, when switching to Manjaro. Those are normal growing pains of learning something new, that is different from what you have been doing all along. If one is willing to accept it, there is a good chance of succeeding, my mom told me last year she installed linux on her computer and it works well for her, of course at over 70 she is still on the young side.
@@flipflopski2951 You have to be a clearly a delusional linux fanboy to say that but whatever think about Linus's actions in positive way which is and I am pretty sure that the product and software companies are already now on the run to solve these issues that Linus faced from the time video is uploaded and this is going to be beneficial for us as Linux users.
I am using Ubuntu for now quite a few years. Getting xrdp to work... Was extreme, especially since my Ubuntu Server is always in headless mode. And that's just one example. It does work now, though. And very well at that.
My biggest complaint was that the go XLR officially is Windows exclusive. Legit can not even use with Mac OS so legit the worse choice for this purpose
But, he has his open-wheel track car and doesn't care that he's facing a rally stage, he's going to drive like he's on an asphalt circuit.... then blame the event organisers for the damage because he's Linus, he gets to have his cake (given to him for free) and eat it too, whilst making money from having people watch him eat it (many of whom believing that he's eating it in the most elegant way anyone's ever eaten cake).
@@ChrispyNut This is a typical self-righteous toxic response that puts newcomers to Linux right off (and even for me after 25 years of using Linux both as a developer, sysadmin and desktop user). If you've invested a considerable chunk of money on equipment for your Windows or Mac environment over the years, and wish to make the move to Linux (because apparently it's the Year of The Linux Desktop [again]) then why shouldn't feel a galled that support for existing and not cheap hardware is piss poor.
@@tehklevster Be galled at the manufacturers, not the OS.
Reverse engineering drivers is really hard (let alone expensive to buy), attacking the platform because the people they gave their money to CBA to support a major platform is galling.
I attacked Linus, who's an I.T content creator with some Linux experience himself and an experienced Linux admin on his staff making BS videos attacking the wrong people.
Untwist your knickers and stop being like Linus and attacking the wrong people for the wrong reasons!
@@tehklevster He's making anti-Linux content and you're attacking me for calling him out for it to what, defend Linux?
BULLSHIT!!
@@ChrispyNut uhm... dude.. watch again the video, especially the part where he points out that the hardware manufacturer is to blame. also he's not making anti anything content. he's literally showing other ppl what experience he had with the hardware he had. i tried linux a bit and most things worked great, except my blutetooth headphones (sennheiser hd 4.40 which for some reason weren't picked up as having a microphone also). an yea, it's probably fixable, but i (like linus and many others) want something that JUST WORKS. don't feel like tinkering. so i really feel like linus is making a good series aimed at most ppl that are thinking of giving linux a try from the "i want a new os" and not "i want to be in control and tinker with stuff" and giving them some realistic expectations.
3:45 I guess he kept typing the command and automatically typed "yes" and somehow ended up with "yes sudo apt-get install obs-studio" which would be an infinite loop of that command.
Oh I didn't think of that
well it must be it since bash would not just keep on repeating it otherwise
The first video definitely did a better job at displaying the problems. I don't know why so much of it was talking to a camera instead of screen capture of the problem. Definitely would've helped people figure out what the issue is
You'd have hoped that he would have learned the lesson about automatically typing yes without reading the screen from the last episode.... But then, perhaps he might have learned a lesson as a beginner about the sanity of using a GUI package manager if you are a beginner. Pop Shop just simply wouldn't allow him to uninstall his entire system; Pamac would have made installing OBS a breeze...
oh that's brilliant! I think you've solved the mystery
Yeah, for newcomers to Linux, you'll often see this. "Unofficial support" means that the software developers (for OBS-Studio it's OBS Studio Contributors, for Steam it's Valve, etc.) build and support for one or two of the top-level commercially-funded distros like Debian, Ubuntu and/or Red Hat, and then there's community contributors who package for other distros like Arch. What this means is that the actual developers will ask 'Are you using Ubuntu? No? Well we're not going to help you because we don't have a revenue stream that will let us develop and test for all 9.74*10^99 distros out there. Ask the community members that ported it to your distro for help."
Which, for the average user, might as well mean "it's unsupported".
I have a question that I hope someone can answer. I have never understood why community contributors need to repackage software for different distro's. Example, say OBS was released for debian only... community takes that package and works magic to make it work on Arch. Is the reason the software did not work in the first place, due to the package manger (Apt-get vs Pacman) or other or combination etc? Also, does the package for debian need to be reworked/repackaged for other distros based off of debian?
@@Matt-yz3gq It generally comes down to how the supporting Libraries for that application are packaged and distributed for a given distribution. As such the dependency references may need to be modified slightly from what's specified in the originating (.deb) package. If you go to the Arch user repository and inspect many of the PKGBUILDs you can see quite a lot of ubuntu (deb) based packages being modified and re-packaged since the app itself essentially the same regardless of distro.
I literally started using Linux 1-2 months ago and I'm surprised how easy everything works if you research just a bit.
It's amazing what a bit of research and not having picked the worst hardware possible can do eh?
Esp when you compare the resources.
Linux just doesn’t feel like the Blackbox that windows always felt too me.
Literally same, I started using it at my job, fell in love with how you can do things there, and just started using on my personal laptop. I still have windows for some shitty softwares that I need for school
so... you mean it does not work out of the box.... seems linux enough to me.
@@Dukenukem well, it's the same as mac, not everything work out of the box
I can remember having these same teething issues when learning linux. So it is very fair. That said there has been great strides in making it more accessible. But my main take away with linux has been unless you enjoy puzzles. A paid for version of ANY OS is your only choice for a plug & play out of the box experience.
I don't think there's any OS at all that's a "plug & play out of the box experience". Computer skills take a long time to learn regardless of the OS. It's just that most people who use PCs already have hundreds of hours of experience with Windows. I've been using both Windows and Linux since I was a teen, and to me each of them is easier to use depending on the use case (Windows for gaming, Linux for software development and servers).
Can agree, Linux is like "go out there, ask others, figure it out" and Windows has all the things baked in.
I mean when switching to another operating system, expecting everything you need to work is quite fair I'd say. Like I'm all for new experiences and tbh I love linux. But my computer isn't just a toy. And things randomly breaking and fixing them selves out of my control is just unacceptable. Also defeats the point of switching, when I need to go back to do certain things.
They don't randomly break and fix themselves, there is an explanation. Gardiner Bryant explains Luke's problems with the audio and how to fix it. It's basically several processes competing for the attention of pulseaudio and wanting different bitrates. So when Luke restarted his machine that other process might not have run, and the problem appears to be "fixed".
@@kjeldgaard0 Ok cool, that's maybe one issue down. My language was vague on purpose, because the issues are never ending when trying to switch to Linux and trying to carry over any apps and especially your equipment. Sure, you can learn to use the free alternative apps, but with the equipment it's sometimes just plain impossible. You won't find support for anything that isn't popular enough, which is an issue you often see when buying stuff on a budget or for an older computer. Not to mention all of the stuff that does exist can break with any update either to the original device or app or the compatibility layer. Also means that all information about any potential issues like this you'll be having is often outdated.
I'd absolutely love to switch to Linux, but when I'm working on something, I really don't have the time to be figuring out why things broke this time. And like I said, having a copy of my old system to go back to for certain things just defeats the whole point.
People accept that not everything is going to work when switching to a Mac. With the advent of M1 chips this is even worse. Any reasonable human being expects having to do some adjustments when switching to a complete different ecosystem.
But Linux is FOSS, so it is judged harder...I mean, a multimillion dollar company can do no wrong, right? They have experts...
@@elimgarak3597 Linux in general has an image problem. I can say that from the Linux classes at uni I've had the usual result is a bunch of people learning why they don't want to use Linux. Not because the classes were done poorly, but because of the emphasis on the terminal.
Another source of pain I can give as an example is tech support. I know someone that works as teg support for one of the large printer manufacturers and any time they hear Linux they're bracing for the worst.
As for myself...well, the file structure never really made sense to me.
I hope you continue with these "new daily drive linux" reacton videos. Not neccesarily only for this LTT challenge series, but other people who wants to document their experience getting started with Linux. I find your comments and resolutions insightful and interesting, and reacting to new people in the scene allows us to be exposed to all these issues that otherwise would go unforseen. (as well as building a solution for them).
For instance, I think its awesome that Pop!_OS is now defacto harder to break, because everybody watched the first LTT video, and the devs immediately came up with a solution to the problem.
(You can no longer nuke the GUI by an install command in the terminal without doing some novice-level stuff that conveys your intention of breaking the system)
And I dont think I'm the only one who enjoys this content, it seems to be growing this channel, giving you alot of views on these type of videos.
The amazing things that I learned from watching these reaction videos from several Linux users is the acceptace of traps and mistakes in the system. Almost every Linux complain is met with "ye, that a problem", "that definitely should be fixed", "this has been problem for years" and "you should never try this". Just sheer acceptance of the crap linux is trying to sell as features with "You can always fix it yourself". Nobody except programmers can fix it themselves. (and even if you are programmer, you can know different lang or just be so fed up with your own projects and not want to fix somebody elses).
Linux is GREAT on server tasks, linux is unmatched on server deployment share, linux is crap on desktop use for anybody who just "want to use it", linux should stop try to pretend to be "for average PC user".
Also if you need to buy specific hardware for OS why even bother to market it as Windows replacement?
File extensions are simpler on Windows though. Everything opens with Edge despite if you change it or not :p.
:-D, but in general I like the idea of file types, indeed I might go for such a linux that would use many of these.
@@ottolehikoinen6193 I dont think a distro where extensions matter exists, at least not as far as I know
Also, Im not sure why everyone coming from windows insists so much that extensions should be there. The OS figures it out by itself quite well and the file icon shows it to the user - if its a n image or a video, the icon is the image preview, if its an executable/script its a ./ icon, documents, presentations and tables have their own icons as well - there's just no real need for extensions tbh
@@muffininacup4060 it's been a simple workflow issue for me, fe. all the pieces on a publication can be named nearly the same and thus easily edited and found on the filesysten.
@@muffininacup4060 anyway linux doesn't prevent using filenames with ext, so as long as one names pictures in article articlepic1, articlepic2 etc there's no problems (unless it's an adobe)
Honestly I think the LTT video is really well made. Anyone angry or being rude to them about it needs to touch grass.
Linus has the right to be upset that his goxlr doesn't work and make a "well-made" video about it, and people also have the right to avoid grass.
There are mistakes worth pointing out but it's a video on the internet don't be angry
@@hojjat5000 Grass never killed anyone.
What does "touch grass" actually mean? And do I have to "touch grass" when all I see on LTT is a kid shilling products for advertising revenue to self-entitled gamers? I guess you could describe that as being "rude" about the kid but I am hardly "angry" about him when anything he says about Linux is of zero relevance to me in the real world of Linux anyway.
@@terrydaktyllus1320 Touching grass is just the new internet way of saying get off your computer and go outside.
As someone that tries to hop over to Linux full time every year, I feel like they are going about it fairly. There is a lot of stuff that seems extremely daunting when you first swap over to it.
That being said, I also feel like Linus is being overly harsh towards things while Luke is having the correct mentality. I do understand where Linus is coming from though. My first experience in Linux was a shit show that made me want to pull my hair out at every turn.
Luke took mint, that is the main difference I'd say.
i think linus is being hash because ppl say that using liux for gaming is easy when its not for a new user who is jumping into lunux for the first time
I started using Linux just last week, I actually picked it up after watching Linus' pt.1 video. I would say his frustration is warranted but has also showed the possible hurdles and challenges when switching to Linux. Watching reaction videos like yours or others also helps troubleshooting and learning from their mistakes. If Linus had not pointed out an issue, I would not search for it or it's possible solution otherwise and would have been stuck frustrated. For example I've ended up choosing Garuda as my starting distro, I also used 'apt' or 'apt-get' as my first command because I've known 2 people in my life who used Linux and both of them are using Ubuntu. I'm slowly getting the hang of things, and I learn new things every day when watching channels like Brodie's, Tech Hut, or Distro Tube.
12:05 powershell scripts no, but batch scripts will execute with just a double click by default and since powershell is fairly new Linus is probably basing his comment on his experience with batch scripts.
That's true but PowerShell is just as useful of a comparison
It is, but the vast majority of tutorials out there still recommend Command Prompt over power shell, to the point that Windows 11 actually updated the command prompt.
In Windows, from a power user's perspective, command prompt is what I think of when I think of terminal on Windows. Powershell is like the professional IT's Command Prompt.
23:00
Linus has a point. It's certainly a bad experience coming from Windows to Linux and discovering that half of your software just isn't there or it is there but behaves badly.
But if I were to switch to Windows from Linux right now I would experience the same issues. I doubt that I could get something like i3, rofi/dmenu working on Windows.
So I think most problems are coming from the manufacturers which just ignoring Linux as a desktop, plus your personal bias about software that you are used to.
Wine is always worth a try at least. I've been surprised how well it supports running Windows programs.
For example, there's this automapping program for some retro RPGs (Where Are We) that reads the memory of an emulator (DOSBox) to work.
I installed the Windows version of DOSBox and Where Are We in the same Wine prefix and it just worked basically without any problems.
@@zirkoni42 for me a windows user testing Linux. If wine is the answer I should just have to install wine and then double click the exe File for it to run. Not open terminals to get to the file and run it some way through wine.
It all goes to the manufacturers which don't make the support official, it's not linux fault
If Linux is touted as a replacement for Windows, then Linus is absolutely right, things should work easily. Does Linux need to be approached from that perspective? No, and that is absolutely fine, but in that case, Linux is *not* a replacement for Windows, and that leaves us in the uncomfortable position where Apple and Microsoft have a direct duopoly, where what OS an average user has available is 100% determined by their hardware, Mac for Apple devices and Windows for everything else.
I think the question being raised is, does Linux *want* to be an actual competitor to Windows, or is Microsoft's effective monopoly here to stay? I certainly don't want that to be the case, but even as a competent power user, I am hesitant to switch to Linux because of software incompatibility, and I have absolutely no reason to recommend to *anyone* that they switch to Linux, even though I would like to be able to offer that option (with caveats) because relying on Microsoft does not seem wise.
Also, there's OpenRGB for all things rgb and it works globally for all of them so you don't need 4 different softwares for every different brand you use (msi mystic light, aura sync, Logitech hub, razer chroma, etc)
That was even covered in LTTs video
Unfortunately though, it doesn't support everything. I have an EVGA z15 keyboard that OpenRGB doesn't even recognize.
OpenRGB does NOT work on all things RGB. Personally I hate RGB, but my buddy seems to have the magic touch to pick hardware that it doesn't work with, then ask me for tech support.
I've been waiting for this!
for "sudo apt-get ..." i get command not found but if i dont use sudo it open the man page of Pacman
The more you know !
please say this is true, that is hilarious.
@@Gemasted lol ik
@@Gemasted It is true on Garuda, idk for manjaro
Been looking forward to this
We need Linux subsystem for windows asap! 😂
What they're doing is fair, however I think that with how they titled the series, it definitely would have made for a better first impression, if they started with what they're are to show next - "normal everyday tasks". I know some people laugh about this, but I really did reinstall both my parents' systems with Zorin like 2-3 years ago and it has been great. With Windows they somehow always managed to break their systems, but with linux they have been unable to so far :D
To summarize - the "average user" in developed countries right now is actually a 40-50 year old person. Most of those people only need access to a word processor, a browser to complete simple tasks, a media player, a communicator and good printer support. And at least from my experience - in most cases those "just work" on linux.
On the other hand, TBH the people watching those videos - are the people who probably need this or some other equipment to work on their system, and given that knowledge - this is a damn good take. For most of us here actually watching - is it not a year of linux. Not yet. :(
There will be a part where they focus on doing those things and checking how well it works. They've talked about it on the wan show
@@bleack8701 that is literally what I wrote. I only said they should have started with it.
Can't wait to see Linus install gentoo after asking on some forum how to do gaming on linux.
Though, if he went as far as doing windows vm pass through just to change some mouse settings, he might actually do it.
And donkeys Might magically fall from the sky also, but I wouldn't bet on it.
He would absolutely do it. When he was doing the tech support challenge he spent 30 minutes fighting out how to enable creative, spawn a tree or somehow change the biome. He's definitely the type to dig deep and keep digging until he forces it to work
LTT video was spot on. As an main windows user, I have difficulty doing or getting into Linux. Yes I have been playing with Linux since 2013 with virtual Box and dual boot, I still get confused.
WOW this is what an approach should be .... Solution oriented :D... Love your work buddy
I don't know how they have been so unlucky with Linux. I didn't had any of problems they had. Only issue I had was how to set monitor to keep 144hz after reboot. After little research I discovered that I had to also apply monitor settings in Mint's own monitor settings panel after changing it on Nvidia x server settings. I don't have had any problems with Nvidia on Linux so I upgraded from GTX 1080 to RTX 3080 while I only used Linux as daily driver. I have been using Linux for 2,5 years as my daily driver. Before moving to Linux I studied using Linux a little bit and tried different distros inside VirtualBox for half year. Luckily all of my hardware already supported Linux or worked perfectly (all features worked) with some open source version made by community. Also every software I used worked on Linux and I had all of my games (except Minecraft) from Steam and all of them worked natively or with Proton on Linux. Maybe I was extremely lucky or they just have been unlucky.
I think you were lucky :P
About Linus' APT complaint in Manjaro: APT is a program, as is Pacman. A command invokes a program. If you try to invoke APT, but it isn't installed, the computer will not know what in the world you're trying to do. Honestly, I think that if somebody wants to get into the CLI, they should take a crash course on what it is and how it works before using it; that is, if their intuition is uninclined to the CLI.
Your suggestion is a pretty good one for beginner distros, though. It's already a feature in Ubuntu; if I try to run a command that isn't installed, I get suggestions to install it through APT. It even suggests packages with similar spelling, in case of misspelling.
That happens quite often on my Garuda, I THINK it's the FiSH shell:
╰─λ kwrite
find-the-command: "kwrite" is not found locally, searching in repositories...
"kwrite" may be found in the following packages:
Yep, it took me to prompt for installing kwrite.
However, when I tested "sudo apt-get install obs", it just failed with command not found.
E2A: I just tried "apt-get" (no sudo or install ...) and it opened the pacman man page.
@@ChrispyNut I'm not entirely sure what shell my Ubuntu machine runs; I treat it as if it's Bash, but it has to be some modded version for Ubuntu for it to parse commands like that.
I guess I might have been a little unclear when I said that the feature is already there; I should have said _functionality._ The functionality to recognize that the user is trying to use a package manager that isn't installed is already available. For Linux users like us, that would be bloat. But for a beginner who just downloaded Ubuntu, it would be helpful. Manjaro could go either way; it's like the Ubuntu of Arch, but it's still a rolling release distro that is more likely to have issues with bleeding edge software than the relatively outdated Debian/Ubuntu counterparts.
I now recommend Ubuntu to beginners. Anything that supports plug n' play just works, and it has plenty of GUI tools for doing most anything. It is also the one that I have experience using, and can recommend it in good faith; it's the first one I installed a few years ago, and never hopped distros until I installed Arch on my laptop when I first got it. Side note: my plans are to switch entirely to Arch once I get a new drive for my Ubuntu machine.
@@RAndrewNeal I genuinely can't agree about Ubuntu for newbs, or Manjaro.
Mint (Cinnamon) has been my recommendation, though Garuda's passing muster at present. Finding it way better than Manjaro, though it still has the common Linux issue of unintuitive naming (though in the world of "Steam for Games", "Google/Bing/Duck Duck Go/Whoogle for internet search", "Twitter for social interaction" and "FireFox/Chrome/Edge/Fire Dragon for browsing the internet", I do wonder if we give *nix a hard time for their software names :-D
@@ChrispyNut Oh, I forgot to specify that I don't actually recommend Manjaro for beginners. The only reason I don't personally recommend Mint is because I've never used it. I do _think_ it'd be good, but I can't say from experience.
You're completely right about software names though. A large portion of all software have non-descriptive names. A good Windows example, off the top of my head, is Rufus; who would hear that and think USB ISO burner? I just use dd now. lol
I think your end point is the most accurate. They're expert windows users trying to use linux as if it is windows. Us linux users know we get little support from companies and realise we're going to need the community to help us out (hence all being familiar with github). Also, we're used to checking whether hardware even is supported within linux, rather than just assuming it will be.
Still though - nice to get some high profile bug testers on this. Seen quite a few bugs getting rapid attention because of this.
10:11 i mean, a techie person like linus should know the "save as" is a html page downloader and that it comes with the name "install.sh" because the button to the install.sh script is actually a hyperlink to the github page where the script is. Like how da fuck you use computers without knowing that? when was the last time you used "save as" in a youtube video page expecting to get the actual video file.
TLDR: What Linus did was what i see my dad doing, even on windows.
that's one of the reasons I think this challenge is at least partly scripted
@@-morrow i expected more of Linus tbh, if it isnt scripted that is
I think it depends, there are Websites that give you the file you want with right click save as. For example everything build upon Microsoft sharepoints (as far as i encoutered at least). And i do remember that i've used it like that regulary on other sites.
First time navigating github years ago was quiet the experience as well.
But that also depends on the repo.
If you get one with great documentation for your first time, that makes it way easier.
But it should have been easy to open the file in a Editor, at that point it should have been clear that something is wrong.
@@littlegreenman91 i agree, it should be easier, ive never used the save as how you described tho, never in my 10+ years with computers
As a developer, I can relate to other developers acknowledging that they are not very good at documentation. Most of the time my co-workers are just writing notes to organize their thoughts, and that is what becomes the internal documentation. I guess it takes a special skill set to be able to take a complex technical system and translate it down to what non-technical people can understand. Even then there is typically additional feedback from the non-technical people for what they are having trouble understanding so you can help clarify the best you can for the largest subset possible.
I think it's always important to reverse the question and see if it still makes sense. If Windows had limited hardware support, it would be a problem so why shouldn't it be a problem for Linux?
23:50 I think this series has shown again that desktop linux is in a weird spot. It's super usable for the people that mainly use their browser and a word processor etc and it's fine for people who are willing to do stuff in the terminal and setup scripts. But it's a much worse user experience if you want to get a broad range of functionality and wide hardware support without having to "go digging" for a solution.
Especially for if you have limited time it can be really hard to justify running an OS that requires you to spend 1h reading stuff online to get your new hardware working if there is windows where most things work out of the box and annoyances tend to be more subtle.
That's part of why I couldn't fully commit to linux yet, I run it on my servers (duh) and sometimes on my primary desktop (for gaming and coding), but I could never put it on my laptop because I know that getting the stylus to work and finding an application that can replace onenote for me (no wine support :( ) will be a huge time investment for very little gain
When you are using a Wacom stylus, these are rock solid. I myself run a Thinkpad X1 Tablet gen 2 and know many people using laptops with Wacom styluses they function out of the box (they recognize as a second mouse basically). As for a onenote replacement, xournal or the newer version xournalxpp works just fine. Only two finger zooming isn't working that well on my device, but there are buttons for that. You can also try xournal on windows, but from my short experience it's way worse than the Linux Version.
@@MrBrostin Maybe it would work, my laptop has built in MPP with proprietary drivers. Maybe worth trying again!
Do you know of any note taking application that supports a mix of pen and typing, ideally with an equation system (inline latex interpretation or that weird thing microsoft does)?
Manjaro could totally place a script called apt that just echoes "This system uses pacman". It wouldn't be difficult and, I guess, make it Linus-proof?
If you wanna go all out, also parse the following argument to give more specific advice, like for "apt install obs" suggest "did you mean pacman -S obs".
I have a better solution
"Command not found"
@@bobbybologna3029 Deep 🗿
That would conflict with the java apt, that frankly they dropped that name, so I'm not sure why it's still in the command-not-found package.
If you think Linus doesn't know about package managers I have a bridge...
the closets one I came up with was this command:
```
yes sudo apt-get install obs-studio
```
man yes
yes - output a string repeatedly until killed
OH! Yes!
Good point there!
For me it's perfectly fair. I'm a software developer, I have to say I use Linux only rarely (I used Slackware and Mandrake in like 1999-2004, then did some administration on CentOS around 2008-2012) and sometimes I'm disappointed by the toxic Linux community of teenage elitists when I want some help. Hopefully Manjaro just does work out of the box, except it sometimes break (like when you boot up an old notebook after months, kernel update fails and it removes itself from grub). It's quite annoying, cause I don't want to use google and spend 2 hours by fixing trivial problems.
Basically, I use Linux as a tool - to do something with Raspberry PI, to make 10 year old notebook useable etc. I'm not a person who pretends that spending tens of hours by configuring tiling WM and restricting himself from touching a mouse is a way to be productive.
I can relate to Linus, in my opinion Linux can be great for some tasks and some groups of people such as web developers, Python developers, and maybe someone for web and multimedia - well, except he can do all of that on a tablet. But not much else :(
"Basically, I use Linux as a tool..."
Exactly! The OS is a TOOL. A program that runs on your computer. Use the tools you need to do your jobs the best!
This is exactly why, for example, you'd want to work on Windows code in Windows and Linux code in Linux. Or do music stuff in Mac OS because it has the best tools.
The point is - stick to what works for your needs the best and don't make a religion out of it. It's still just a computer.
On tiling WMs: people do actually end up being more productive *after* configuring their WMs, saying it's unproductive to spend 10s of hours configuring tiling WMs and not use the mouse _when you're supposed to be working instead_ makes sense, but the way you said it in your comment makes me think that you think tiling WM configuration and non-usage of the mouse is an unproductive use of time _period_ , which isn't the best take imo, especially because actual professionals use that kind of set up and get alot done with it and besides, who are you to tell them they're being unproductive when you haven't even used that set up yourself? To extend the "tool" analogy, it's like telling a professional carpenter they're using their chisel wrong when you've barely done any carpentry yourself and only used hammers and saws at that.
I agree with everything else though.
I checked the script statement. Powershell (.ps1) files do open in text editor by default. However, bat files are opened in Command Line by default, not text editor. So your expectation from file startup/opening depends on what kind of files are in your mind
I would expect Linus to know about that difference
@@BrodieRobertson Most windows users never heard of powershell scripts. BAT files on the other hand are quite common, and exist since the primordial times.
I think you define the issue very well at the end of the video. If the everyday person is going to attempt to switch to Linux, things need to just /work/. They can't have to require all of this tweaking and changing if you want someone like my 50+ year old parents to use it
The final remarks are the highlight. Don't expect anything to work.. If it works . Then great.. This is the quality needed for a daily driver OS
i can relate to linus's previous take on bricking popos with steam, i kinda did that with xbmc(back in the day) which wiped my os leaving me with just xbmc. lol
I bought a keyboard with built in memory to keep presets so, when my computer was fully loaded, my keyboard lighting wouldn't lag with the iCUE/ckb-next, otherwise you can only keep a static color in my experience
My urage exodus 900 also does that. It's good design in my book.
There's a zsh plugin that tries to autocorrect whatever you wrote and that will ask you to download missing packages when attempting to run a command from one of them. I know that manjaro uses zsh and customizes it as well and I remember having that functionality last time I used manjaro. Maybe it's disabled by default and somehow he managed to enable it? No idea how he got that to work but I'm 100% sure that this is what happened
Just tested it, that doesn't cause that issue. apt-get doesn't exist in Manjaro repos (I have aur, flatpak and snap enabled like Linus_
My guess is somehow he typed "yes sudo apt-get install obs-studio"
Luke and Linus are evaluating Linux for its viability as an operating system that the average person can use. The average person will expect that the things they own will work on it the same as Windows. If not expect, require. Therefore, if their devices are not supported by Linux (even if it isn't Linux's fault for 3rd parties not supporting it), that still contributes to the operating system not being suitable to ther average person.
Linux has become more intuitve over the last 15 years since I last tried it but nowhere near as much as I'd have hoped for a period that long. A lot of problems require command line and/or managing config files, which people aren't used to and could easily have a UI in front of it.
People can (and will) make the argument that Linux isn't Windows and that learning that is part of learning how to use a Linux operating system. They are absolutely correct in that but they are also wrong in that it's unreasonable to expect the average user to to take up that level of technical knowledge, given how Windows has shown you really don't need that in 99% of cases. If that's just part of how Linux works then Linux is just not for the average user and it immediately fails at the first hurdle.
Whenever I see Brodie I think "man he's starting to look pretty Chad. Beard is pretty baller. Not scraggly like it was a year or so back. His hair, although long looks pretty good. Hey! He even looks like he's hitting the gym!" And then I realize the shirt he's wearing and his chadness droppes to sightly below what is was before.
Zorin does a great job of helping you when you get something wrong. I couldn’t get Lutris to boot for some reason. It gave me the possible commands to fix it. I thought that was awesome. The command worked and I got it running again.
I like your breakdown of what is going wrong and how to fix it.
The only thing that made me go "what?", was near the end. Why would one go into using linux with the expectation that nothing will work?
hope for the best, expect the worst.
Is kinda bad seeing the Linux contributors being castigated for s*it private companies did, we didn't tell elgato to ignored linux they just did it themselves, all the community could do is to enable the basic functions of those devices
I think the assessment made by Linus and Luke is needed as they are focusing on the areas of Linux that are lagging behind in comparison to areas that Linux is praised for (i.e. a powerful terminal, more privacy than competitors - depending on settings and distro -, customizability, etc.). Like with most technology, Linux - or each Linux distro *if* there are distros that have a large enough differences between each other to be of significant concern - is only as good as it's weakest part/link.
i feel like you do have to do fairly 'developery' stuff on windows quite a bit too. including the odd visit to git hub (if you want a good solution anyway). like how he can't get that controller to work at the end, games are okay in windows if it's an xinput device it's fine, but even dinput ones can be a pain, and it makes sense xinput wouldnt get the special treatment it gets on windows.
better about the screaming than usual, 10/10
Fantastic video, really informative and insightful! Please react to the future parts as well.
As for the last point on if Linus and co. are giving Linux a fair run, I'd say definitely yes from the perspective they established at the beginning of the challenge. They are taking the challenge as completely new users would, who want to replace their regular Windows gaming setup with Linux. My only problem with it is the fact that even experienced users would find this kind of approach extremely hard. IMO, Linux is *not* meant to be a direct replacement for Windows, and I would never recommend it for a gaming PC. Hopefully it gets there in the future, but it isn't there now. Linux is superior for many applications, but pure gaming is not one of them.
I feel that Fedora with the Gnome desktop, Wayland (instead of xorg), pipewire (instead of pulseaudio) and its tendency to have better driver support, may have been a better distro choice.
I just installed fedora 35 and it work pretty awesome on my 10 year old laptop
For any software product, OS or not, open source or not, to be considered user-friendly, there is a default expectation for the vast majority of things most users will use, to just work with minimal effort.
Do you expect a fuel pump from Ford to work on your Honda? You might get lucky and it does but chances are it won't. Of course, you could hack job it and make it work but that is going to be difficult, time consuming and probably cause problems. That's what Linus is facing trying to get Go XLR which is essentially a Windows exclusive to work on Linux. As for Luke, all he needs is a different piece of software or a cable.
@@wingracer1614
My focus was referring to the general UX situation. UX is considered a failure when a userbase is unable to use their everyday workflows and existing utilities/experiences into getting into the new target product/application with minimal effort.
Yes, the majority of users might NOT use those tools or flows, but a large enough minority (who are also non-technical) exist who do utilize tools and flows for it to be statistically significant
If not enough of the common enough use-cases are covered for the userbase, then the product/application is by definition not user-friendly. It is still NICHE-Oriented
I think the issue has been more like me taking a motorbike on the street and expecting it to behave like a car; why? because both of them are supposed to act like a transportation vehicle.
If you want to see your OS behave exactly like windows, do you know what's the best candidate for that? effin Windows; you don't need to switch. But if you are switching to Linux, the primary reason has to be embracing Linux. Appreciating the goodness of it and contributing towards filling the missing portions in terms of usability; not whining at every step about why it's not acting exactly like windows.
If this series was promoted as purely for entertainment, I'd be absolutely fine with it. But the pseudo-educational facade and half assing everything while at it is conveys just negative things which is unwarranted. Not using github the way its meant to be and then ragging that on Linux - things like these are inexplicable. Things like file extensions. All of these are bad practices and remnants of windows usage. One needs to unlearn misleading and sometimes wrong things as well. No matter what other's say, any new user should NOT behave that way. FWIW if you act like a headless chicken while installing windows or using windows, you can demonstrably fuck up the system beyond repair too (I have), and the scene is not pretty.
Hi I didn't understand shit from Linus's video but you did a great job of explaining things. Thanks for the video. I hope that linux's popularity would not die after this whole LTT series conundrum. I am using Linux for about a month and from a normal user's perspective linux is just fine.
Judging by my channel metrics which granted are a tiny fraction of Linux it seems like there's more eyes on Linux than there have ever been
@@BrodieRobertson I'd suggest making a video about a distro you'd recommend. It seems like a lot of the problems when it comes to Linux are based around knowledge or lack thereof so a video or two focusing on a good distro and the main tools you need to know and how to use them would probably get a lot of eyes.
I personally tried to copy Luke and run Mint, but I had an odd issue with my laptop's touchpad. It worked fine in the live version, but it refused to function until I found that I have to edit a configuration file to let it know that the touchpad is somehow attached to the keyboard or something? Then I started dealing with the dedicated Nvidia video card, saw horrible tearing and I eventually had to give up.
I hit a wall, didn't know how to search for the issues I was having and without knowing the common issues and tools I just gave up on the poor laptop
I saw Zorin get mentioned a coupe of times, but I don't want to test run it to see how it works for gaming, since I don't have the time to do so. Hell, I shouldn't even be watching this video right now
@@bleack8701 Welcome to the world of linux where an exorbitant amount of time will be spent cruising forums in a vain search for answers you don't have questions for.
I think opening files based on content rather than extension is generally a good idea. In Linus's case, seeing bash syntax errors or ": command not found" and a thousand other lines of similar nature I think would've been more confusing than the file just being opened in Firefox and Linus realising immediately that he downloaded a webpage and not a script. It's also great when you want to open a file with an uncommon extension that (on Windows at least) you wouldn't have a program associated with, and xdg-open just figures out it's a text file or something and opens it where it has the best chance of being interpreted correctly.
great vid
It seems like the biggest hurdle that Linus (not Luke so much) is facing is that he has an entire ecosystem based around Windows-compatible-only peripherals. When I built a Linux machine two years ago I built it up around the fact that I was running Linux, and chose appropriate peripherals. I think it’s unreasonable to assume that a setup as complicated as Linus’s is just going to run fine right out of the box, and without any research, if you then switch over to Linux, or macOS, or any other operating system.
Luke has a less complicated setup. I think this is why he has had a much better experience. Luke could, of course, add peripherals to his Linux set up. But doing so with a knowledge that he is running Linux, I think, would give him a much smoother experience than expecting windows peripherals to run under Linux.
"Expect nothing to work and then be surprised if it works"
That's like the ultimate low bar. Not what you should be aiming for.
I think that how Linux in desktop works now without many companies supporting it, its a great achievement
Hi, could you say again what is the program you mentioned in 8:08 for Logitech products?
The behaviour he is describing with apt-get sounds like fish. Fish will search in the repository if you use a command it doesn't have locally, but I don't think manjaro comes with it pre-installed.
what Linus saw when trying to apt-get install obs is most likely find-command, which tries to search for and give you an option to install a dependency for a command if it doesn't exist
The window capture was actually a problem for me back when I was using obs on Windows
19:44 even with a description isn't not always clear what to install and use. For example dev version of freecad fixed topological renaming problem ages ago and on forums the custom version of freecad is recommended over the stable version.
Generally I feel assessments of Linus and Luke are fair. I hit similar road bumps and then some(my wacom tablet is still buggy -- mouse cursor and pen are not in sync).
That's a good point, but an understanding of what the different versions are can't hurt
I think the future of linux is to have a solid kernel level compatibility level with i/o support so that we don't need a full blown virtual machine
They might work with limited capabilities but eventually the manufacturer needs to make software for configuration. The future is Make Linux Desktop more Accessible > Bigger userbase > More attention from manufacturers
That feels so nostalgic
I'm not gonna lie, I've been trying to find a solution to my old PCIe capture card not working after kernel 5.7, I've had an AverMedia Live Gamer HD 2 for a while now. Since Kernel 5.7, the HD 2 stopped being recognized as a PCIe device and was recognized as a USB device which was weird and started having tons of issues. I've been asking for help on this though I couldn't find a good answer. You saying that it's better to look for a UVC device was literally the first time I've heard anything of note to my situations so I went to Best Buy and bought an Elgato HD 60S+ and it works with a couple hiccups, but I can actually see my Switch/Laptop/xBox from the device. Thank you Brodie, My issues were actually solved after a long time
That Git bit was so unnecessarily complicated and chaotic...
7:41 It is indeed. I (totally don't) have to do it to configure the buttons for my Razer Naga Trinity, which I bought while still using Windows.
“If you are approach it from the perspective of I want to use Linux and I expect non of this to work. If it works that’s cool.”
Why would you want to run an OS where you expect nothing to work? This is like Ben Shapiro level people can sell their house and move if global warming happens and their area gets flooded… it just doesn’t really make sense from the perspective of the challenge Linus and Luke are doing. Which is seeing if Linux is at a stage where people could jump from windows to Linux.
And yes “some” people can. But most people won’t if they have to go in with the idea that nothing works and be amazed that some things somehow work, aren’t a pain to setup or require some obscure troubleshooting knowledge about bugs in apps.
That ugly font gives me war flashbacks of going trough the phone of aunts who use the same style weird ass font
11:50 Hold on there, Windows users rarely use powershell scripts, that's usually the domain of Linux users on Windows or administrators (which are often also Linux users). The more common scripts for average Windows users are batch files which do just run when they have a .bat extension. Save a text file as with a .bat extension and it will execute by default. You are also more commonly directed to go to the command prompt to do things in Windows than the powershell terminal, it is VERY rare for the average user to need the additional utility that the powershell terminal provides. Hell even though I'm a developer I've only ever needed it once or twice in my life and even then it wasn't strictly necessary.
Screensharing in Xorg that shows a huge monitor instead of multiple monitors is broken because of NVidia drivers, they present a single display to Xorg (TwinView) and do not enable Xinerama/RandR correctly and thus applications do not detect multiple monitors. It will work just fine on any driver supporting RandR 1.2 and recent software.
Been using Linux exclusively since 2009, never heard of Keyboarding Master either.
Never found 3rd party key remapping software necessary, you can do all key remappings in your DE's keyboard control panel.
Some shells (zsh I believe) will sometimes offer an option to install missing software if you run a command that isn't found on your system (i.e., you run 'vim' and when your shell finds nothing, it will offer to install vim for you)
Also, I'm on KDE and discord notifications don't often work, streamer mode disabled. It works sometimes, and sometimes even shows up 5 seconds after the notification sound.
Linus' apt-get loop seems like something I've experienced in Fedora. While definitely different, if I try to run 'mysql' fedora will say "yo, that's not installed, you want me to install that for you?". Watching this, I figured Manjaro was doing the same thing.
Yes I did got something similar
I learned linux on the ps3. Including patching code by hand in makefiles to install MPlayer variants. Was fun. Especially while they were working on cracking gpu support. They were fast approaching workarounds through the hypervisor which would have allowed gpu accelerated emulation at least. Which is when they shut down Linux support. I moved to Debian based Ubuntu variants from then on.
I love that projects like that exist
Rene Rebe was working on t2-sde to support for PS3 and RSX. He's the only warrior left for PS3 Linux nowadays.
His "sudo apt get install obs-studio" thing is because manjaro comes with a "hey you don't have this command but you can get it from here! Would you like to install it?" Prompt by default
So one thing I'm curious about linus not having the nvenc encoder. I've noticed that like in pop!_OS, it's there out of the box, and Gardiner Bryant Mentioned he's always had it configured in Manjaro, how linus didn't have it.
I swore you used to have to download an sdk like you do with the framebuffer feature Anthony showed, but I might be misremembering and I'm super curious regardless. There is the possibility that the NEW nvenc encoder for rtx isn't part of the drivers yet. I don't know.
Do you have a link for where to get that t-shirt you're wearing?
when I used linux I relied on the metadata. Windows uses it to, you can change a file type like Linus did, and windows will tell you the extension doesn't match the file type. So it can read the metadata, it just doesn't really use it.
I been using Linux mint on my laptop since 2018, arch based things on my desktop for about 1.5 years and of course I use my desktop more.
But I still keep mint on the laptop because my mom who also used the computer doesn't like KDE but she loves cinnamon. I still try to use Yay in the mint terminal time to timr
Luke's experience with Linux GUIs is pretty much why I stopped using graphical applications fir installing packages and many other things for that matter.
The GUI just breaks wierdly and doesn't have good error reporting or any error reporting at all.
Linus' take on the script thing was about as uninformed as I have ever seen him.
"Right click -> save link as" might as well be undefined in behaviour, unless you know exactly what is on the other side of that link.
I'm genuinely surprised that this seems to be the first time he has ever run into the problem. (though I do agree that a download button would be nice, sometime I do find myself wanting to download individual files from one of my repositories)
File extensions are another thing. If a file is in a human readable format and I double click it, I want it to launch in a text editor, period.
I like that they are doing these videos, I just don't know if the attitude he is displaying is ideal.
Pointing out that stuff doesn't "just work" and that you indeed have to do some research and probably type a few commands into the terminal is fair. I'd even say we need more of that kind of honesty. But it feels more like he is using an escalator for the first time, getting on in the wrong direction and, instead of telling his viewers: "Hey! Double check that you're getting on in the correct direction", he is throwing a hissyfit about how escalators are dumb and unintuitive and that elevators are clearly the superior method to navigate between floors.
It's just ridiculous.
Honestly, I was exited about the steam deck and the prospect of more people switching to Linux.
But if this is just going to bring in a bunch of petulant children, who will throw a temper tantrum at the first inconvenience and expect everything to be a tailored for their needs, despite them not **ever** going to make a single contribution themselves, I don't think I actually want them here.
I'm not saying that their criticism is unfounded and I definitely think the new user experience could be much improved (along with the "advanced" user experience for that matter, some of the hiccups on Linux are not limited to new user error) and especially Luke's perspective is great.
But Linus' whole perspective comes off more like a spiteful response to people yelling "It just works" and "Linux is barley an inconvenience", etc., instead of being an honest attempt at trying out Linux.
The thing about github is that it only misses the file extension on linux. On MacOS and Windows it would download a .html file, making easier for the user to know they did something stupid.
I think your assessment that because he went in with a "I'm expecting everything to work like in Windows" attitude, he immediately felt disappointed. I went in assuming I'll have trouble getting things to run and was pleasantly surprised that almost everything I threw at it, worked. My pen worked perfectly out of the box, and I actually laughed out loud when I found out Linux has native support for the Wiimote and it will work perfectly out of the box while in Windows I had to download all sorts of sketchy drivers and software to get it to run.