Rebuilding a Pontiac 400 V8 AGAIN! After Comp Cams camshaft break in failure!
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- čas přidán 10. 12. 2023
- There's not much on an engine build project that can take the wind out of your sails like a camshaft break in failure, welcome to our current struggles! In this case the brand new Comp Cams camshaft in our customer 400 Pontiac build ate a lifter, a lobe, and damaged essentially all the bearings. After a top end rebuild and camshaft replacement. Total kick to the stomach!
But these things happen, even when you follow the flat tappet break in procedure, and use the proper recommended high zinc break in oils, sometimes it still goes sideways on you. So here we are, recovering from that failure and reassembling the motor to get back to where we were in the project just a few short weeks ago. Isn't hot rodding fun? Aren't engine builds great? - Auta a dopravní prostředky
The disappointment in his voice when he opened the box and saw it was another Comp Cam. Lol
Some of us would prefer Crane Cams would open back up, but the Comp Cams extreme cam is the best we can get for this engine for now. Edelbrock brought out Comp Cams a while back, because no one would by their Cams. The biggest thing need on a cam is to have the spread between Advertised (.004s SAE) and .050s as low as possible, and on a Pontiac v8 to try to have the LSA around 112 LCA. I don't understand why someone would reuse OEM Pontiac cast rods on a rebuild, even "Uncle Tony on CZcams" noted the Rods are notorious for failing at 12 seconds on the 1/4 mile.
Whenever I rebuild/build an engine with a flat tappet, hydraulic or solid cam, I always use CamShield break in lube for the cam and lifters. It’s a paste type. Stuff is amazing!
Rich your such a great guy. I wish everyone in this world had your morals and values. Merry Christmas to You and Yours.
It's not the cams its the lifters not having a proper angle cut on them. Powell machine has rockwell tested the hardness on dozens of cams, and all popular lifters. He has some really good videos on the cause and cure to all these current cam/lifter problems. I've always used Comp cams, but will be switching to Isky as they use Johnson lifters.
I thought the Johnson lifters supplied by Hughes engines were found unfavorable by Powell machine
After that cam fails--Get ya one from Howards Cams-i believe they have a version of the Ram air 4 cam,use it with their lifters-&have the dlc coating put on them-never look back,or worry about your cam again
Agree, i've never had an issue with Howard's cams or lifters. Clay Smith's are fail proof as well.
I built an engine break in / run stand about 10 years ago. It has proven to be worth its weight in gold to me! It has its own stand alone fuel , cooling, instrumentation and exhaust system. There is nothing worse then breaking in an engine in a fully restored car and having problems. I also run them before painting them most of the time so you don't have to worry about it burning off around exhaust ports on a flat tappet break in. You wont regret building it Rich....
I appreciate your transparency and being candid.
Follow comp directions. Lots of lube and some even recommend removing inner valve springs for break in. I only use roller cams now.
The last solid lifter flat tappet cam that I installed in my 13.5 to 1 comp. 428cj was a custom grind from Kuntz & Kraft out of Arkansas that was a Crower cam and lifter set. It was a while ago because all of it was made in the good ole USA. Miss those days. Good luck Rich.
Most of the flat tappet lifters are manufactured by off shore companies. I know Isky has been working on bringing lifter manufacturing in house. I recently started using roller cam retrofit kits on the older stuff. I have the luxury of turning down jobs that I think will cause me pain😂. Removing the inner valve springs and use of break in oil has helped me. I also like to keep the water temp as cool as possible, usually run it with a hose in the radiator with the petcock open. Good luck Rich.
Funny enough, I have had good luck with the Summit Racing flat lifters. I've had Comp and Lunati flat lifters take out cams. The Comp and Lunati roller lifters I use are freakin great. I don't think they make their own flat cam lifters. Comp Cams are fine, but I use the Summit lifters on them.
I build LOTS of Pontiac engines, they are kinda my thing.
Me to -----Hose in the Rad & the thermostat gutted, just use the outer ring with the petcock open and 2 big fans pushing air. I have not had any F/T cam failures in 50 years.
@@SweatyFatGuy Me to, if anybody tells me they have a big block Pontiac🙃 just WALK AWAY ! there just not worth our time Any Pontiac from the 1955/ 287 to a 455 all takes the SAME VALVE COVER !. BB Pontiac----- ??? in the words of WC Feilds ------ go away booooooy , you botha me.
They are alllllll bigggg blockkkkkkssss lolllllollllolllo aren’t they lolllllllll just kidding,thanks BigAl California
Hy-lift Johnson are made in Mi,I believe crower uses these in their kit
You could mic up the all the lobes on the cam to see that you have taper so you know your lifters will rotate with your push rods...thanks Rich ...good content...
Summit has your engine run stand for $2510.00. Austin was checking it out at PRI. Looked like a really nice setup.
the windowed valve covers are genius
You do great work rich.
Nice work Rich!
Always polish the lobes and check and polish the bottoms of the flat tappet lifters before they are installed. Also always use real break-in oil.
Yep I heard the same thing on bad cams all over the place from people on line
Thanks Rich for the explanation and the reassembling of the Firebird engine. Hope all goes well. You want it right!
💯👍👊
Watched a video by Powell Machine in SC I think.
Talks about lifters going bad and cams
He Grinds his own cams, and redoes lifters.
Very interesting , even for a very old man like “ nut twister”me.
Amazing dedication to see this job through!
We used a ol Cadillac style Camaro front stub on a single axle trailer for our runs down we can take it anywhere and run an engine and sell the engine that way,,, thanks BigAl California
Ive use that same black assy lube-broken in two flat tap cams w zero issues with breakin!!--Its got that black moly in it-which is key!-Rub it into the metal real good w rubber gloves on
Seems like there are a lot of flat tappet lifter issues lately. Another Comp cam.😖 Hope it goes well Rich.
I was debating with getting a comp cam and went with a crower and have had no issues. Change your oil after break in for sure. Use the lucas 10/40 hot rod oil high in zinc.
Gotta use the best break in oil and use a bottle of the zinc additive. And i do the break-in procedure more than once, letting the engine cool down fully between each procedure. I've even used lighter valve springs for break-in..JS
Good luck Rich!
One HAS to check lifter faces and they MUST be convex on the face. It's easy just take a straight edge and if they don't ROCK on a straight edge send them back they are improperly ground. IMHO it's usually the lifters not the cam. Checking lifter rotation can be done just after installing the cam just put the cam in and turn it by hand. If you want to see under spring pressure, leave the valley pan off then turn the engine. Pontiacs usually have low valve spring pressure so I doubt you will fail if you check all of that.
My 1970 Pontiac Lemans sport coupe automatic 350 chrome front and rear bumpers was isky first car,,and I did a stupid thing and traded it for a pile of junk and 300, dollars, way way back inthe 80 s , it was a vinal top gold /tan int, center shift auto, thanks BigAl California
I stopped using Flat tappet Cams after 3 failed Break in the last 5 years. one of the cams was a Comp Cam. Now I run Roller Cams, haven't had any issues since I switched. Buy Forged & built in America!!!
Quite interesting. You are the 3rd online engine rebuilder that I watch online that has had issues with Comp Cams. I did know they had been purchased by the same holding company that owns Eldebrock. I have heard other mechanics say the believe the comp cams are chinese made these days. Comp Cam was my go to for cams back when I was doing hi po engines in the late 70's to mid 80's. I hope you get lucky with this one.
Howdy LUCORE, ...
Thanks ...
COOP
...
Just a note. I've installed hundreds of cams. (I'm machinist and builder) . Regarding comp cams, I used the hi-energy line in most all stock and mild builds. I used the magnum series for rowdier stuff. Never an issue. Seems these fast rate lobes (xtreme series) really amplified the flat cam situation (and of other companies using aggressive fast ramp lobes) regarding flat tappets (hydraulic or solid). I've used the xtreme line alot as well the last 25 years. I think 1999 I really dove into that grind series and here we are almost 2024. EDIT- I now nitride all flat tappet cams, period. It's added step and expense but compared to failure its very very economical. Comp was offering in house nitride option for some bigger solid flat tappet grinds. (Some racing classes don't allow roller.)
My engine builder went with a custom ground solid roller from comp cams with morel lifters in my 383 stroker. He said he was done with flat tappets
Kill the cost, go roller, peace of mind go before originality. My fourth flat tappet installation went bad so I went roller.
Now I enjoy my car instead of worrying about the cam.
I duno? I just finished a 67 Chevy 327 with a CompCams CL12218-B cam kit and had no issues. However, I replaced everything in the value train with new rockers & balls and push rods and got rid of all them factory locknuts replaced by Poly Locks to give correct per load and KEEP IT LOCKED THERE !. Them cheap factory nuts can backoff. The 327 now has 4,200 miles on it with no issues. It's not the cam or lifters causing the problems. I always buy a extra print can of Iskys black molly hi zinc cam brake in "grease" and drown every part of the cam train with it and that black grease says put forever, plus soak my lifters overnight in Driven brand 30-W brake in oil and pump them up by hand and install them wet with the isky cam grease all over the outside of each lifter. (extra heavy on the lifter face & push rod socket) Call me old school, but all I use is flat tappet cams in rebuilds and haven't had one fail in 50 years. I got to be doing something others are not.
Use Valvoline VR1 I believe it’s 20W50 racing oil with zinc additive it works on the street
That stuff is kind of hard to find at least around us. Have run VR1 in some race car builds over the years and been pretty dang happy with the results. Holds up well to lots of heat and abuse from what we have seen. Not sure what the zinc on that stuff is but would certainly run an additive as you mention.
I need to build a engine stand also . I have a 468 I used to run until I blew a oil filter line on the way home from a show . And had to shut the engine down when the gauge went to zero . 😢 cut the filters apart and found bearing material. Would like to build a second 496 for a back up .
I guess I've been lucky for the last 20 years. I worked in a speedshop for a long time and installed lots of flat tappet cams. Never had one fail. However, I see tons of failures out there, even from reputable builders. Even I don't trust the flat tappet anymore. Next cam I do will be a roller.
Have the Old Man hook you up w an Isky Cam !!!
We already talked with Isky unfortunately unless it's a Chevy they don't stock anything flat tappet. They can grind one when it's ordered but there's a 2-3 week lead time. Otherwise we certainly would have.
My problem was machining not the metallurgy hydraulic cams or not cut right either was the cam lobes
Chrysler 318-360 magnum engines roller valve train since about 89
bop engineeering didnt have an old cam & lifter set to sell?
what about kaufmann's in loudonville?
Need some Crane Cams "super lube" break in concentrate. Seeing as now Comp and Crane are pretty much the same company. Crane would never warranty a cam that wasn't purchased with that little bottle.
I use it for every flat tappet 4,6 and V8 camshafts I use(re-grind oem or new billet) never had one fail since.
Cool 😎 !
It's not a re do,,,,,,,, it's practice.
Anything worth doing once, is worth doing twice, right? ;)
Especially to do it right and have a happy customer. Nice freakin job as always guys@@LucoreAuto
It appears to be a combination of a metallurgy problem with poor heat treating. Either one will destroy lifters or any other highly stressed parts. The OEMs moved on from solid lifter/flat tappets over 30 years ago in favor of roller/hydraulic lifters. Remember GM's "soft camshaft" fiasco? When the best minds in the automotive world give up on a technology, it might be wise to upgrade vintage motors as well. Especially for infrequently driven vehicles that are subjected to severe service.
It's not a metallurgy problem, it's a machining problem. The China lifters everyone is rebranding do not have a proper face on them. Powell machine has some really good videos where he Rockwell test the hardness of a bunch of cams and lifters, shows you how flat the lifter faces are, and how he used to recut them. He has since sold that part of his machine shop because he could not keep up with demand.
Possibly, but Chinese metallurgy and heat treating are far more likely. The exterior of a part can be checked non-destructively. Metallurgy and heat treat checks require expensive and time consuming lab checks. Lots of OEMs have learned their lesson from warranty claims and reputational damage in many product categories.
dip stick tubes never read correctly, the dip stick is what tells how much oil there is in the pan.
It's ridiculous to have to worry about parts integrity from inferior materials.i remember when everybody had cam issues back in mid 90d when they took the zink out of oil they really didn't tell anybody.
There are about 2 places in the country id take a pontiac to be rebuild. No offense to lucore but there are specialty builders.
Just my opinion, we have too many off shore pieces coming into the pipeline of engines. You cant make precision instruments with chinesium and expect longevity. Things must be made with the correct metals to survive.
blame the consumer who wants cheap stuff, including the fleet owner--we have two levels of machine shop now as a result, the "good enough" price point and the "i never want to see you again" level.
I've not needed to use a engine stand though is a great thing to have. I would use one if I had opportunity.
I went roller cam in my build.
I spent time at a cam grinding shop on West coast, yukking it up with the owner, and the consensus IS the lifters & Cam metal is plenty hard as always even compared to Older stuff known to be good and same hardness as new materials.
adding "ZDDP" to reg oil trying to make your own chemistry is a BAD IDEA!
DON'T DO IT!!!!!
The chemistry is wrong!
Use "formulated break in oils!
Quit being stupid about that!
So when do you know the right time to reinstall the other vlv springs? It will be like a secondary break in procedure too..
I ,would ,trade some one ☝️ for one of my Chevy trucks, ,for a good useable 55 Chevy 2or4 door roller, or a 1970 Pontiac Lemans sport coupe 350, ,,, that would be a good day in my world 🌎,I just subscribed to your channel,and I love Pontiac heads with a heart shaped combustion chamber, nice 👍 thanks buddy praise Jesus Christ grace amen 🙏 ,,, thanks BigAl California
Edelbrock owns Comp Cams…
I wouldn't do another flat tappet cam again
when we complain about "chineseum" parts and their metalurgy, remember they are using the metals we ship them for recycling. we give up our cheap crap and...karma runs over our dogma.
Comp cam cores are made in America.
@@apachebill the cores are, but it seems to be the flat tappet lifters Comp and others buy in bulk that are doing the dirty--either the surface material or machining process. Uncle Tony's Garage and some other channels here have done some digging, and that's what they're coming up with.
The Chevy, Ford, and Mopar boys caught a break, they can still find roller lifter blocks in the junkyards at affordable prices while people rush to the LS engine. We try to get a roller setup for a BOP engine and we have to make sure it's not such a radical ramp it snaps the Pontiac's lifter bores off the valley.
Pity, the BOP family was such an affordable go-to for torque-y engines.
Every single CZcamsr with a car related channel has had a comp cams fail and they will not stand behind their cams
its not just comp cams and there is more than one cam manufacturer.
Bullett didn’t stand behind my flat lobed cam either. Mine was on a dyno and all lobes went flat except one. Yay.