Big Block Wars! 454 Chevy vs 455 Pontiac vs 455 Olds vs 451 Mopar! From Lucore Automotive
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2020
- Well this episode has been a LONG time coming, and here it finally is our much delayed Big Block Wars featuring iron headed (mostly) big blocks from Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Mopar all with similar street setups throwing down on the dyno to see what's what! Every gearhead has their favorite but which one is better? Or... is there one that's better? We run them all, discuss their builds, and give you a breakdown of each!
First off we have a classic 454 LS6 Big Block Chevy, this was a GM Performance Motor purchased in the mid 80s to power a classic '57 GMC Truck. Stuffed full of good stuff from the "factory" this motor just needed an overhaul and cam change to bring it down more into the range more fitting the truck it was powering. Of the 4 units we tested this one is also the only one running a roller cam and valve train, but still give us some very useful information. Classic wisdom says the 454 Chevy is the best... is that true?
Secondly we ran an in house built 455 Oldsmobile that will be powering Rich's own '65 Oldsmobile F-85. The factory crank and rods were checked and reconditioned then topped with a set of SpeedPro pistons, and an out of the box set of Speedmaster heads. Of the four motors we ran this is the only one with aluminum heads and honestly we feel are equivalent to a set of GOOD cast iron Oldsmobile heads. How did the ole "FA" Olds Rocket 455 do?
Thirdly came the Pontiac 455, mated to a set of 6X cast iron heads. This motor came out of our own 1970 Pontiac LeMans and actually performed pretty respectably when tested. To accompany the freshly rebuilt heads we ran the factory crankshaft, Eagle forged rods, and SRP forged pistons. This motor was also fully machined and assembled at Performance Research Inc in Columbus Ohio so there IS some more advanced "machine shop magic" hiding inside. Would the Poncho show why the 455 GTO was often considered a king of the streets?
Finally we have tossed the freshly built 451 Stroker Mopar on the dyno that will be the new heart for 73ChargerChic 's "Momma's Mopar" 74 Dodge Charger. Built out of a 1977 Dodge 400 block with the rotating assembly out of a early 70s 440 the machined and prepped setup brough displacement within striking range of the other 3 big blocks so we thought it was fitting. On top of the classic Mopar rods we mounted some ICON forged pistons to handle any future track abuse that is likely coming. Not many people know of this type build, so it's been a pretty interesting experience bringing it to life. Will this B series Mopar Big Block sneak up on the competition?
We hope you enjoy this episode, these motors have been coming together over the past 3 years and getting a chance to finally film all this was great. 4 of the big boys of Classic American Muscle all in one video! Which one won? Well, what do YOU think?
Lucore Automotive is a small independent american small business located just outside Columbus Ohio. While we are a full service shop that maintains and repairs countless daily drivers we are also well known for our work on classics, race cars, and collector cars.
We would like to thank all of our friends, fans, follower, supporters, subscribers, and most importantly customers for being here with us! Without the wonderful people who let us work on their toys, and help their dreams come true we wouldn't be in business! - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Every comment on this video:
“Where’s the (insert either rare one off or wrong year span engine here)?”
My question is:
Where’s the Pontiac 301 dude? This test is bogus unsubscribed worst entertainment video ever
Where’s the Buick nailhead or Pontiac super duty or ford flathead or big block Packard! I’m so angry at you for not putting these totally weird engines that nobody builds on the dyno!
Hahaha, YOU win the comments section so far! Thank you for that :)
In all honesty... I hate to say this but there IS a 425 Nailhead in the works ;)
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing admittedly the nailhead is a great engine. Have a 401 in my 66 Electra and that thing gives me perspective on these big blocks in that all of them were made for different purposes. The nailhead and the big block Buick being built for low, effortless torque for a quiet, luxurious ride and not much else. I mean 6000 rpm with stock bottom end and you have a grenade waiting to go off, whereas the big block Chevrolet was designed for nascar to an extent lol. Makes me wonder why people wanna say which is best when these engines all come from car companies having different needs for an engine.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing plus all of the people that shout about these niche engines miss the point. A nailhead is a wrong generation engine compared to all the big blocks you have in this video. It’s older 1950’s technology whereas all the big blocks in your video were all contemporaries. Plus I’ve seen requests for ultra rare engines like side oilers and other strange one off things like they’re part of the argument at all lol. You’re not picking up a super cobra jet in a junkyard.
All iron head shootout as the Oldsmobile sits there with a set of aluminum heads on it lol.
Hey there's close to Iron Headed! ;)
@@LucoreAuto lol, ok. Good vid though. As you know, it doesn't matter how hard you try at parity, somebody's going to complain that well, you should've done this with the Mopar, or its not fair you did this with the poncho ect, ect. I'm admittedly a big block Chevrolet guy but have respect for all of them as they all have their good points and bad ones if you are honest with yourself. The trick is to know your chosen engine family very well and know what parts combinations work well together, even if factory and it can be quite amazing how much power any if them will make for not a huge $ outlay. I put together a 0.030 over 440 for a good friend of mine for his wheelin rig, 10.68 to 1 trw pistons, Edelbrock performer heads and intake, crane gold roller rockers, comp solid flat tappet cam, factory rods with arp bolts and balanced with a factory steel crank. It will wind 6500 against his rev limiter all day long and even doesn't mind an occasional 300 hit of gas. Makes incredible power even na on pump gas and is a reliable great engine.
@@johnasbach577 You are VERY correct Sir, unless we just had a spare $40,000 sitting around to build 4-5 identical big blocks across the brands you'll never get true Apples to Apples... to Apples and Apples ;) But, we tried!
One of the things that made us want to put this video together for folks was to really put it all out there across a few of the major brands. We all have our loyalties but let's have an honest conversation about what they do what they can do and what they cost!
The 451 Mopar I'll be honest will be a good motor for now in her '73 Charger but I think down the line with a head swap and a few more additions will become quite a monster. And with the prices Mopar folks can get GOOD aluminum heads?! Not fair! *cries the Pontiac guy*
@@LucoreAuto lol, yep. Very true that yes, anything can make gobs of power if you have unlimited amounts of $ to throw at it but most of us are not in that category and have to make due with what we can afford. But that's part of the fun in gaining knowledge of the parts readily available that work well together and those that will compromise your build. And really in this day and age none of us have any excuses in putting together something that is a poor build, or combination, because of so many before us who did all the hard work and research that is now at our fingertips with the click of a mouse. I think another thing that gets people in this game is the trap of unrealistic expectations of the combination that they have/can afford. As you know, every engine combination is a compromise, unfortunately lol!
Well, keep at it, is nice to see info from honest fair minded people with no axe to grind and as a bonus we all learn a little something 👍👍!
I'm Rooting for the Pontiac!!!
Removed a 455 Olds from a 1969 Delta and installed it in my 1972 Cutlass.
Engine was all stock.
Car would fry the tires for a half a block.
Mega torque monster.
We pulled one from a 71 delta 88 and freshened it and put in a 79 trans am. The motor was in the junkyard compleatly fresh from someone else's with a cam lobe beat down. We cleaned and put new gaskets and a crane powermax cam and it would completely shred tires even with the single plain holley street dominator intake that was all wrong for the engine lol
These motors weren't GREAT at making gobs of power into the higher revs, OR getting very good or even kind of good fuel economy... BUT they were GREAT at making lots of low end low RPM piles of tire melting torque. All of these motors are making north of 350+ torque at 2,000 RPM which is more than enough to break traction on anything but some serious sticky tires.
Alright we'll forgive you the putting an Olds in a TransAm but you're on shaky ground there Andy! ;) The old days of being able to find these things by the dozens sitting around in junk yards just waiting to be reborn are gone unfortunately but there are LOT of tales like this! Go get motor from yard, spend a couple hundred bucks fixing things, drop into smaller/lighter chassis, and run 11s! ;)
@@LucoreAuto well it's kinda forgivable if it came with an olds engine when new. Right? Lol
@@midsouth2strokes185 KINDA forgivable but still feels awkward!
I bet that Olds would’ve topped 500ftlbs with a dual plane. Cool video. I’m an Olds guy but those Mopars are growing on me! They sound incredible and have just a ton of potential.
We talked about that quite a bit afterwards, a lot of "what if" scenarios. The Olds definitely had some power left in the tank with a few small things changed, obviously so did the Mopar.
It can be a little maddening :) At the end of the day though in a cruising fun car do any of them REALLY need 500+ torque? Street tires already hate how they get treated ;)
@Dave Micolichek oh we complete agree it's fun on the street :) Well, the tires don't really enjoy it and do a lot of complaining, but it's fun! ;)
@Dave Micolichek your Sir, have a VERY serious case of Big Block Addiction! Sounds like you certainly have some fun with your toys too, much better way to enjoy them than just sitting in the garage
@Dave Micolichek literally all you have to do is type "dyno explosion or failure" in the yt search bar to see plenty of proof.
Dave Micolichek can’t avoid the fact that he said 510 foot pounds with a 2 barrel like a Rochester 2g can even put out 300 lol
I have a built Pontiac 455 in my Firebird and you're right, it's easy to be 10 to 15 k into it before you know it, but I wouldn't swap it for nothing.
It really REALLY is. Especially if you go the aluminum head route you're there in no time. But, when I pop the hood of an old classic Pontiac I want to see a light blue Poncho motor staring back at me!
What about the 455 Buick
Unfortunately we didn't have any customers currently building a 455 Buick BUT, we DO have a 455 Stage 1 we will be running on a chassis dyno in the next few days that should give us some numbers to compare with!
Was quickest from the factory
Jim Clarke yes it was I had 1970 Buick stage 1 with the 455 I really miss that car it was stolen back in 1995 I never seen it again 😫
How about a 421Pontiac Super Duty with dual 850 cfm Rochesters. And a mid rise intake with long tube headers ? Bootleggers deluxe baby!!!
@@walliehart5975 There is a YT video comparing a 405 HP 421 Pontiac to a 409HP 409 Chevy. Pontiac completely murders the Chevy on the dyno.
pontiac always growls different than other engines !!!
As a Pontiac guy myself, I was VERY pleased with the sounds that thing makes and the numbers it made. Unfortunately, that Pontiac tax is REAL!
Really looking forward to having it in the car and seeing how it actually performs.
Yessss sirrrr Pontiac all the way I think it’s obv that I’m a Pontiac guy😂😂
I have an ex-brother-in-law whom him and his father ran a salvage yard. They hauling in a four door Pontiac with what looked like a plain Jane 400 small block. It had a two barrel on it. Somebody had to been building a sleeper and either their old lady or some idiot decided it was time it got towed. But it would rip them loose only at half throttle. 🔥
As an oldsmobile guy, Olds always sound different then the rest.. that big bore, short stroke ftw.. lol
@@mikehunt9894 It's not about the size of the motor, but the power of the stroke! ;)
Pontiac didnt make a big block or a small block. They're all the same size. Should of called it big cubes showdown. Great video! Thanks for the content
Yes yes we Pontiac folks always bring this up ;) Unfortunately if we want to play in a class with others, we have to sign up for the Big Block Class so that's just the rules we went with! :)
Glad you enjoyed the video and we very much appreciate the view! We'll have the 455 Buick Stage 1 on a dyno here soon as well so we can let the OTHER member of the BOP family shine!
They sort of did, they used two different deck heights, but that's the only difference, so it doesn't really count.
dont need to be technical over crumbs
@@marioncobaretti2280 as Poncho folks we ALWAYS have to bring it up on conversation, it's like our secret club handshake. If you don't know, then you aren't REALLY a Pontiac person ;)
@@LucoreAuto The 455 Pontiac has more similarity to the 400 Chevy small block than to a big block Chevy. Canted valves and worked heads on a blueprinted crate motor is not fair on a dyno, but is much more fair comparing them going down the street 1/4 mile. I would rather you had taken a 400 RA IV or II if it was going to be a dyno evaluation.
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a big block.... They just have large same displacement..
Pontiac was an in between a small block & big block Chevy. The great thing about Pontiac that a 326 cu & a 455 the block has the same dimensions on the outside. That's the beauty of Pontiac. You can't do that with Buick or Olds. But there also great motors just like Mopar & Ford.
You are correct Mike, I didn't go into that on the video but figured it was still something fair to compare.
@@fireballrobbie1744 definitely one of the more interesting parts of Pontiac design. Though also makes it hard ti tell exactly what you have unless you crawl under and look at the block stamp. Ask me if I've ever been screwed by THAT! ;)
All Pontiac are big block, technically.
Technically, Pontiac wasn't really a small block either. They designed the engine very well from the start, to go from 262 ci all the way to 455 ci, with small displacement having a lower deck height and larger displacement having higher deck height, the Pontiac V8 qualifies as both. Really, the only drawback is the head design, but most engines were using wedge heads at the time, and they are one of the better wedge heads of the period.
This was a GREAT shootout, thank you!
I had my Olds 455 gone through and balanced about 30 years ago, cost was about $1500 including a core b/c my block and heads were toast, unfortunately. Probably have over 200 Pulls on it now and maybe 50 hours, runs like a top with a Thermoquad on top.
I'm gonna go out and hug it now, lol.
Prices have gone up a bit on these things over the past 30 years for sure! ;) Thanks for the view and comment, we are glad to finally have gotten this video together and tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about the strengths and details of each build. We know we won't probably be making people change teams, but at least maybe they'll learn a little bit more about "The Other Guys"!
My Olds moto was toast I had work done on it lot of work cross drilling for oil aline honed & bore decking I did the port and polish before the motor went out for work same with block work.. de-burr all the casting flashing in center Gally oil restrictors valve rotators installed ran like a bat out of hell...over 500 h.p. but when I built my Olds the machine work and assembly cost me $3,600. Back in 1990
@@peterrivney552 I go pretty easy on mine actually, WOT pulls are maybe 10 sec. and I keep it under 4500 most of the time. Probably why it's been trouble free.
I'm not sure if the machinist cleaned up drainbacks, no doubt flow restrictors weren't done. It's a pulling HOSS though, I don't consider or treat it like a race engine.
Picking up a 455 Oldsmobile engine in a 66 stepside chevy C10 this morning. Paid $1000 for it and the engine starts😊
@@harleytrott2335 I hope it's in good shape, I keep the revs to around 4500 to make sure there's enough oil in my 7qt pan. If you rebuild it, try to open up the drainback holes in the heads. I didn't know about this when I had mine rebuilt and there's a couple times when I think oil pressure began to fade. My solution has been to keep the oil level to top of dipstick mark and keep the revs reasonable.
Does yours have a th400 or is it a manual trans?
I'm 60 now, love these video's full of information to questions we had when we were younger. I am am a Pontiac fan since about 11 years old. This video is full of information for young guys wanting to build a motor. An awesome comparison and know you can pretty much build any motor. So just have fun.
A big Block Ford would have been a nice addition. The 429/460 engines are pretty stout and have as much potential on a tight budget
We are actually actively searching for a 460 to build since so many people have asked for it. While they have tons of potential we honestly don't have many BBF powered hot rods that run around the Central Ohio area. Over the entire 3+ years we did these 4 motors we had not 1 BBF customer needing a rebuild. But since so many people are asking for it... we're hunting for one ;)
Boat anchors
@@stewpidasso8810 - didn’t the bbf dominate in NHRA and IHRA pro stock ? Wonder what that says about the other big blocks then. You clown
@@LucoreAuto if you're offering I can get you a 460 in a 19 foot jet boat. That's kind of a screwy hybrid application though.
BBF can easily hit 450 hp and 500 ft of torque….probably why the ford wasn’t used …would have spanked them all..lol
It's hard to witness the dramatic emotions of some people here. My goodness. You cannot even compare 4 big block engines without some people pining over their preferences being left out and practically crying on their monitors about it. We're on a big block musclecar guy video where some can't hide their inner child.
I felt that Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing did an exceptional job here to detail these intricacies and specifics. Highly educational. It was worth the three years in the making. Thank you.
The 425 Olds is a way better engine than the 455. The 455 like the 68-69 400 is under square and a wheezy up on top. The 65-67 400-425 ( over square) were awesome runners and steel cranks.
Valid point! Especially with modern builds wanting to twist higher into the rev range versus low end torque monsters.
the 400 pontiacs are over square. 4.12''x3.75''
I love the oldsmobile, I have a 70 455, nobody i know has had any luck with the tourqer intake on BB olds, seams to like a performer duel plane, or offenhauser portosonic single plane, Victor's have also had some success with solid numbers, thankyou for the review.
It would honestly have been nice to have a Performer on the Olds compared to the Torker, it doesn't seem to have really done any favors for it. With the power levels and RPM levels we are running on these motors, it's hard to beat the performance and driveability of a good duel plane.
Thanks for the view and comment, hope you enjoyed!
Thanks for the hard work like the shoot out and nice to see no losers! It all in what you prefer
Thanks for watching glad you enjoyed the video! There were no losers but some pretty interesting winners and results we think.
Wow that Pontiac sounds like it would leave the ground ,I'm a Mopar and Pontiac man and that poncho sound was music!
I'm late to the party, but really good shoot out! I was really hoping for a Buick 455, but I definitely appreciate what you have done.
Glad you liked it. We DID test a Buick 455 right after this however it was alresdy in a Buick GS. Should be able to find it in our stuff on here. It did... well 😀
I had twin Olds 455s in my 32 foot Donzi, that puppy moved quite well
Big Block power did and still DOES power a TON of go fast boats. Low RPM torque is what boating is ALL about!
I really enjoyed your video, I’m not bias, I glad that you had time and effort to show us this, thanks.😀
Loved this, great work. Seemed as fair as y'all could practically make it. Thanks!
Oh, please add a 460 Ford.
Thank you we appreciate that! Couldn't make it perfectly apples to apples but this was about as close as we could get.
@@jez_stephensanotherapex5921 we're actually trying to hunt down a project to do a 460 Ford in, oddly they just aren't very popular for hot rod people around here.
The 451 and 511 B versions I have been building since I was 15 for my father .
Idles nice but listening to it ramp up I can hear the tension it has then the fatal decrease of rpm.
Those heads weren’t the issue , the springs certainly are.
Stage V heads would be phenomenal but unnecessary, needing a little massaging , but yes could have suffered some . There a lot of options, knowing especially having built F.A.S.T racing engines in the past , if you slapped on a set of closed chamber heads (properly with matching springs and of which the quench area of those Icon pistons were developed for ) would bring you over 500 hp and even greater than 500lbs of torque.
I would love to have that engine in my hands . I have something similar, with a TM6 manifold, closed chamber and it’s pissing all over the numbers of that 454.
Not bragging , just touching base for anyone wanting to build one and display greater what that engine is capable of . My 511 version is over 700 hp.
Definitely appreciate the comment and Mopar knowledge, hopefully you've watched the more recent videos on the 451 Mopar as some of these issues were sorted out. Unfortunately it was definitely hobbled in the Big Blow Wars contest!
And the Mopar is much easier to work on and more durable than the GM stuff. Shaft rockers, dry intake, external oil pump, 2 piece water pump/housing, factory windage tray, distributor up front...
You did a great job of taking on what is usually a suicide mission of asking “Which is best?” lol!
You speak the truth! Tried to be as fair and impartial as possible :)
I have no idea about most of the stuff you are talking about BUT pretty colors and they all sound GREAT!
Definitely have a range of colors for all flavors :) The Blue and Gold are as they should be, the Purple.. well whatever the lady want she gets ;)
Thank you so much for this HONEST video that wasn't slanted to one side. I'm a diehard MOPAR man so I was happy to see the 451 build. I have an all stock, never restored 1974 Charger SE with a 400 4bbl in it. You gave me some pretty good ideas to think about...🤔🤔😎💯
Well thank you for the comment Sir, very glad you enjoyed the video and hopefully learned a thing or two! We tried to be as honest and up front as we could be about each of the builds, we all have our favorites of course so it's hard to be completely impartial. That 451 Mopar setup is a really good package and with a decent set of aluminum heads on it...yeah we'll see not too far down the road I'm sure ;)
Here we go again, big block Pontiac, come-on now. External block dimensions the same. The 301 had 3/4" shorter deck height than the 326,350,389,400.421,428 and455.. Their is no small block/ big block, there is a small journal/large journal blocks. The heads will all bolt on, there's oiling issues on early poncho, where the top end gets oiling through block and heads,oil ports instead of the lifters and push rods. But as far as big/small blocks, I don't see it, just FYI...🤔👍
I have a 455 in a jet boat. It’s freshly mildly built. The old one made great power despite having a oil pan full of metal chips and lots of other problems. Whole cost for rebuilding to about 400 hp was 3,000. Pretty cheap.
455 what? The advantage of this many cubes on making the quest for 400hp, just make it spin and breathe and it will get there :)
It’s a 455 olds
@@LucoreAuto 5500 to many rpms for a 455
Got it in boat keeps braking rods
@@martywennihan5572 I have a 70 sidewinder jetboat....455 ...I run it at 5500 all day long..after I setup the crankcase scavenging system..does not use oil..does not smoke..msd ignition is set to redline at 5500... Berkeley 12jg pump..
AA impeller..place diverter..Holley 850 DP.
Torquer intake...I've run this engine for 5 years..no problems...
Found the channel by accident - I was quite impressed by the even-handed evaluation.
I'm a Mopar fan (due to an incident with a 90 000 mile "badly out of tune" 69 Charger 440 Magnum 40 years ago) but frankly I would be delighted with any of those engines.
Well welcome, glad you enjoyed the video! We tried to be as fair and honest as we could be, any time you have 4 big brands battling it out there's always plenty of mud slinging!
As a Mopar guy, is the 451 you had heard much of anything about? Seems like it was more of an oldschool setup than what people see these days. If you are interested btw, we have the entire build up of that motor here on our channel in the Momma's Mopar playlist. Welcome aboard!
You peaked my interest. Please tell me about this incident? lol
Great video it's hard to have exactly the same parts nice to see close power between all the brands great video
Thank you! We tried our best to make them semi comparable and to be as above board as possible with what wasn't. Unfortunately we don't make enough money off CZcams to just build 5 identical big blocks for no reason 😉
That olds made decent power considering the junk speed pro pistons with high tension rings. Those speedmaster heads actually cc out at 84. With those slugs and a felpro head gasket, you would be lucky to hit 9:1. Left an easy (and cheap) 100hp in the olds. Needs a set of srp or cp bulltet pistons (not $$). They're are many stock olds heads that flow better than the speedmaster so don't consider that an advantage lol.
You are definitely understanding what I was trying to get across in the video that the speedmaster heads weren't doing this thing any major favors. Aside from weighing less and handling heat better, they really are no better than a GOOD cast iron Olds head. But we would have had more money on buying a good set of Olds heads having them rebuilt and ready to run than what we had in the Speedmasters so... it is what it is.
There's definitely some power left in that Olds for sure, as honestly there is across the board. None of these were really built for big power numbers more of a "what does stock stuff in stock form make". A little bit of port work on those heads, bumping the compression up, better pistons, a better intake, and that Olds would have certainly seen a serious bump in power BUT... that would be a different episode ;) Plus, when you start making considerably more power up front, you've got to upgrade everything in the middle and out back or things go BOOM! :)
Hopefully you enjoyed the video, we'll do our best to keep more of this kind of content coming!
The air flow of those heads may not have added 100 HP even with a compression ratio boost... but add some porting...
I have wanted to Make many comments on the video. As having built all of these engines and many more. I would agree with the power and part used on the Olds.
But as this video is set up, horsepower on a budget build. I would say it was pretty good.
I would agree that there are much beer parts that would build more power, but would cost a lot more.
The guy got a great find on this engine and is a decent build for the street.
Excellent builds and comparison. Like Pontiac too but also really like the potential power/cost of the Mopar.
Great video, keep up the great work!
Thank you, we'll do our best! You'll see all sorts of projects and things we work on hope you enjoy some of it!
Hi, The weep hole on the Mopar water pump should be pointing to the ground. Oh well... time for ice cream!
The way this water pump is indexed it actually CAN'T be on the bottom, but typically speaking yes you are absolutely correct. There's a little shelf on the pump to move the fluid away from the belts instead of it falling straight down.
Interesting comparison, Thanks for doing it. Having said that I take issue with one of your conclusions, As a "Pontiac guy" myself I have to say there is no way that Olds parts are cheaper and or more readily available than Pontiac parts. There were literally millions of firebirds alone built with Pontiac engines, Never mind all the Lemans/GTO's Grand prix's Ventura's etc. Because there are so many of those F body's still out there the demand for Pontiac parts is still quite high and so WAY more stuff is available than for an Oldsmobile. Off the top of my head I can name 7 different companies just making cylinder heads for the Pontiac engine, and some have multiple variants. Butler even lists 5 different models of aftermarket block's! The same absolutely cannot be said of Oldsmobile, not by a longshot. In order of popularity and parts availability it would have to go Chevy, Mopar, Pontiac, and then Olds.
Yes, within seconds you know this guy isn't a Pontiac guy.... "big block"
Pontiac is out of every comparison because its masterpiece :)
Rawr Poncho Power! :) Can't wait to get this thing back in the '70 and enjoy the difference! And then... start the '68 LeMans project! ;)
(Smile)
I built my 400 into a 461 stroker, very nice to see about what it may make. Very cool video !!
The 400 into a 461 is a GREAT setup and honestly, even better than a 455 into the same displacement. There will be one of those in our very near future as well. Easily able to make this level of power or more.
This was a great concept and I'd love to see someone do a proper 45X engine comparison test BOPC would be great to see. But frankly as soon as you put the roller cam in the chevy and the aluminum heads on the olds the validity of your test went out the window, All 4 engines should have been running the same spec cam and they should have all been running iron heads. The pontiac version of Those speedmaster heads have been shown to flow every bit as good as the edelbrocks out of the box so I assume the olds are they same.
I am that 455 Olds guy.... but that Mopar had my attention... always loved the old Mopars
Hey nothing wrong with being an Olds guy! The Mopar was definitely hobbled in this test, it had by far the worst heads and the machinist didn't really understand what the issues were. Had it been able to RPM properly and not hit valve float at 4900 RPM, it should have spun easily past 5500 and would have made a good deal more HP. Unfortunately, we'll have to fix that when it's IN the car
There's some stroker kits for the mopar 400 that makes it a 512, you don't have to grind down a 440 crank, they bolt right in and run great, them 400s got that huge bore so fitting cubes in them are pretty easy nowdays
There are for sure a TON of options for stroker kits on both the B and RB series Mopar motors. In this case we were aiming to keep it as close to the other motors as possible for the purposes of this video. The NEXT one we build will likely be with an aftermarket rotating assembly somewhere in the 500 cubic inches or so. That and get rid of these crappy cast iron heads!
Great video! Well done dude!
Thank you, very much appreciated!
Very informative and entertaining!
Finally have a spare set of cast iron water-jacketed marine exhaust manifolds on their way for the Olds, have been searching for a pair for well over a decade now.
Even among gear heads there seems to be some "question " on is it a big block or small block.
Great video, though. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed! And as gear heads, isn't our favorite thing to do argue? ;)
I have been into Pontiacs since the early 90's and built a few of them. But I also have Chevys and Mopars and now a stroker 351W. The older I get the more I love them all. You can never beat a Chevy for cheap power but the Mopar B and RB can make Big power relatively inexpensively. I seems you and I have arrived at similar conclusions. Great video. Thanks.
Thanks for the watch and comment, glad you enjoyed it! You are correct, there's a reason the BBC and SBC have ruled hotrodding for so long. Cheap easy available simple to make power. The Mopar stuff.. I see us dabbling a bit more into that down the line. This was a learning experience for us for sure, the NEXT motor for this thing will definitely be bigger AND better ;)
I love the video. It very well done thank you.
I'm a Mopar guy. I'll take the 451 every time.
Gotta say of all of these things that Mopar is the one we were impressed most with, and especially afterwards once we realized it was hobbled during the resting. Great setup for a motor
Love my 454 in my 1984 1/2 ton square body!!! LOTS OF FUN BURNOUTS 😎 Chevy power 👍
Hard to hate on the easy to build easy to use power of the 454 Chevy. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon or rich man to make them real tire killers!
The square bodies seem to look better & better as the years go by. I always love it when I see a well-kept one on the road. The Fords too!
Really great video. I like the variety and honest logical comparison. I do have just 1 suggestion though. Find whatever is making that beeping noise and hit it with a BFH until it stops. LoL
Hahahahaha! Literally the first time anyone has mentioned that in ALL the videos we have made! That thing drives ME nuts when filming/editing too so glad to know I'm not alone! Will work on shutting that thing up for future filming ;)
ty for an HONEST opinion and the mopar looks great in its plum suite
Thank you we tried hard to make this as honest and upfront as we could! Really love how the Mopar looks in its current paint scheme and it's going to looks AWESOME under the hood of her Charger for sure!
There are a lot of things ahead for this 451 not too far down the road so we'll try to do right by you Mopar guys!
You mentioned the LS' - my brother has an '09 Pontiac G8 - 6l all aluminum LS in a mid-sized 4 door sedan.
365 hp stock, he has put on exhaust, cold air intake and a chip. He now figures he's pushing 400 hp.
The car has 340 000 km on it (!) That's 210 000 miles. The other day he had it at 250 km/hour (155 mph) and it will throw you back in the seat easily.
So, yeah, "everyone" is running an LS, but they are FUN.
Oh they are DEFINITELY capable motors for sure, and there's a reason they are pretty much the kings of builds these days. They take a ton of abuse and keep right on roaring.
What's interesting is if you look at the dyno graph on that LS, typically it's MUCH different than old school muscle. They make similar numbers but usually a considerably different curve.
What's about the 460 Ford engine?
Unfortunately we literally don't have a SINGLE customer in the past 4 years that's built or worked on a 460 Ford or we absolutely would have included that! We'll keep an eye out though for one to show off in the future :)
I was going to ask the same thing. I guess he doesn’t have many ford customers
@@droppedf100 oddly we really don't. We do a TON of classic work but can count the number of BBF powered vehicles on one hand. Just not a very popular power plant for Central Ohio hotrods I guess :(
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing too bad. I just put together a std. 2 bolt block, 521 cubes, 290 TFS heads, 600 lift flat tappet cam. An easy 550 crank hp for $5k.
@@LucoreAuto Ofcourse U Guys Don't Have Any Ford Blocks There... Seems Like U Guys Just Work On Chevys.. No Ford Guy Would Want To Take It There lol
My 455 olds on my 69 442 none original motor with K heads ran like a dream. Had so much power and torq!
Great video, nice job!
Thank you Sir! We appreciate the view!
455olds hail to the king
There are a few things in store for that Olds project not far down the line ;)
good test I enjoyed it . the olds surprised me a little on the top end there .
Thanks Mike! We for sure had some surprises testing all these things. The Olds and Pontiac coming in with VERY similar peak HP numbers was quite interesting, especially considered the Torker vs Performer
Agreed....good job on classing..and comparison
Been waiting for a good comparison on big blocks. Around these parts you don’t see many big blocks in a task force gmc. I done the small block thang and folks almost take off in a run the other way at car shows. My neighbor has a Pontiac 455 but, he was asking toooo much for a motor his mom had run hot and quit. Also I didn’t have a good experience on the first build with the bullet cam. Cam went flat on the Dyno and was a mess. We done proper break in oil, springs and keeping rpm band up there for proper break in. Second round I went a roller motor(489) and won’t do another flat tappet again. You have a convincing story on that mopar.
Thanks for the watch hope it was at least some what educational and enjoyable! There were a LOT of lessons learned here, at least for us, on all 4 builds. When we decided to do this sort of "build off" a few years ago it was quite odd to us that there wasn't something like this already done and documented on CZcams.
Fortunately for us we haven't had any issues with cams lately but HAVE had a few customers come in with cams that were most certainly NOT broken in well. Nothing is quite as fun as getting a motor together and within a few hours of break in having to take it all back apart again and throw another good chunk of money at it!
The Mopar thing I tell ya... wasn't expecting such capability and honestly already eyeballing another similar build for the very near future! With, a "little bit" better parts ;)
515 lbs of torque for the Pontiac! Awesome! And as the guy said, you can get a lot more HP and torque from the Pontiac with Edelbrock, roller lifters, rockers, RPM intake, and be prepared for tire ripping time. Believe me I know. But Pontiacs are expensive to build, believe me I know that too.
Thanks for the watch and cheering for team Poncho! We were definitely happy with the torque numbers it made, and making it so low in the rev range is going to be a BLAST! Well, the tires are going to hate it but we're going to love it :) As for upgrades beyond what it is... we'll see. Honestly this 455 will probably stay as is... there's a '68 LeMans 400 project coming up that will likely get a MUCH meaner motor! But that's for a future episode :)
i think id upgrade the rods first....
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Yep factory 455 crank, forged rods and forged pistions.
@@drcornelius8275 yessir!
Especially expensive these days compared to back in the '80s LOL.
I have a 442 tribute with a mondello roller rocker setup. Block is from a 1969 cutlass. 425hp and 518tq.
What did you do for heads? What did your displacement end up?
@@LucoreAuto I bought this car actually completed and I just went through the binder that came with it. The block was bored 30 over. These are the orginal heads from the 69 455 ported and polished. Previous owner did a lot to this car. Th350 trans with kick down delete. I hate the rear gearing though since no overdrive he placed the rears at 2.78. I also just completed a 87 grandnational. stock rotating assembly. Te 60 turbo, rebuilt 200r4 trans with extra gears in 3 and 4th gears. alcohol injection, 60lb injectors, new valve springs, 3inch down pipe, cat replaced with test pipe, 2.5 pypes exhaust, hotwire fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. Low 12s to high eleven with bost at 20psi. A mild build. Next up 1992 gmc typhoon. Already built but having problems with the atr pitbull chip. Its either the chip or an electric issue as the 4.3 turbo charged are known yo have electric systems issues. i replacement the ignition control module ran great for 1 month and then hard starting, then no starting. I spend an ungodly amount of money on the GN. I hope the typhoon is more forgivening.
Most beautiful car in muscle car history
thank you very good info.
Very welcome, we tried to be as honest and up front about this stuff as much as we could! Hope you enjoyed it and stick around for more content from us!
Like your comments!! You are truly non biased!! And I am a pontiac guy!!
What about the ford 460? I think it it easily the best. I have one sitting in my garage....I don't know how to get it to your dyno, but I would let you run it .Dove heads with port work anyone can do, and stock valves reground, .040 over bored block so something like 472cid, comp cams extreme 262 kit . stock rods with arp bolts , but it is zero decked(For quench) and 10.0 compression. You can run a bit more compression on 91 when you have quench right, and of course that is just static compression, but the cam timing events keep it on the higher side for the dynamic compression also.I had a 12.5 compression 427 bbc with more cam and I think I would take the ford over it. That said the ford was a better thought out build. Stall converter stall speed, gearing in the rear to tire size and you're around 50 cid more.I guess part of what I'm trying to preach is set up costs as well. Big dyno numbers are just that...The 427 was in a fairly heavy car, but had 3:00 gears , and despite the claimed stall converter rating it wasn't enough.The 460 based was in a heavier car 3:90 gears, and based off cam no need to think about the stall converter. Both cars had enough tire not to spin( slicks and drag radials) and yet both ran near identical times. Despite the gearing the advantage the chevy was turbo 350 and 10 bolt rear end, while the ford was c6 and 9 bolt rear end, wait what ...That's right the Ford was heavier and had more frictional drive train loss and was in a heavier car, and should have been making 50 to 100 less horsepower than the 427, but near the same outcome, and the ford didn't need some race gas
We are hunting down a early gen 460 to build since so many people have mentioned it and asked for it. Unfortunately they just aren't all that easy to scavenge up around Central Ohio for some reason. They definitely were built as low end torque machines from the factory and can for sure be built into a monster able to contented with ANY of these 4 so we agree, it needs to be built tested and talked about! No idea what we'll actually put the 460 in once it's built... but build it first then we'll figure that out ;)
Subscribed, love this type of stuff.
Anyway we could get some cam specs?
Thanks for the subscribe, could certainly work on digging up the cam specs if that's something folks would like to see.
@@Bluecut70 Cam specs on the Mopar/Olds/Pontiac have been posted if you didn't catch those we can always repost :)
I put a olds 455 into a 1966 cutlass 510 ft pounds torque from factory , couldn't keep back tires on her..... smile for days
You DO rapidly get into a conversation of how much power can you actually use, and especially with a street tire 😉
There's most certainly a value to "smiles per gallon"!
I really like the way you presented everything In the interest of fairness. And I'm a Mopar guy.
Thank you Bobby! We tried to be as honest and up front as we could be with this, especially with all the brand loyalty and bias. That Mopar.. I tell ya.. was definitely the sweetheart of this competition
Hey Mopar guy, hopefully you are paying attention to the last few 451 videos on here! It's finally going to be able to make the power it should have!
Dude! You missed the 455 Buick!!!
Unfortunately we didn't have one for building and testing purposes BUT, we will be testing a Buick 455 Stage 1 here shortly and will post it once we do!
Alright Buick guy! Video made just for you guys, goes live at 11:30am today!
Just needed a decent 455 buick to complete the contest!
We tested one on a chassis dyno right after this, just didn't have one out of a car to include in a head to head engine dyno contest. Definitely give that a watch!
Just found myself watching this video again, lol very good video.. I must say I love all motors and I myself currently have a SBC f body but my dad has built more mopars than I can count and I must say from design simplicity and durability i.e. the rocker shafts, the external oil pump, the fact that there's no water going through the intake... Definitely one of the greatest engines of all time...
Well thanks for rewatching and supporting us with your time and comments! We actually have some new stuff coming with that angry Mopar that is going to move it WAY up on the list ;) If you're interested, definitely stay tuned for that!
@@LucoreAuto hell yeah👍💪🤟
The throttle assembly on your Stuska is pretty bad ass with the square tubing and all makes it cool to watch it move through the pull
I have to admit a lot of the info went over my head but what I did understand was quite useful.
Kinda figured the Chevy would be the hands down winner but I wont lie, I was rooting for the Mopar. =)
Speaking of, I had *zero* clue you could make a 499 out of a 400, Hell I had never even heard of one. Hope y'all do one someday because I would love to see what kind of power that makes and what kind of reliability it would have.
Yeah being totally honest we had no idea there was so much potential in those "Junk smog" motors either. The old motor coming out of her car now will very likely come back to life with a 499 stroker kit in it... for... something. That 451 isn't done impressing yet there's a decent chance it goes back on an engine dyno for some improvements to the valve train which SHOULD allow it to RPM better
@@LucoreAuto I caught the valve float issue you were having there, heard it's a fairly common problem with some Mopar engines but I don't know the fix for it, wish I did. I do seem to recall a 360 that had the same problem and a Hi rise intake was at least part of the solution but that was 20 some years back...
Let me see if I got this right... she has a 2nd 400 that yer going to (eventually) do the 499 kit on? Or when she outgrows the 451 do the kit?
As I have mentioned I'm a hack mechanic at best (give me a proper manual and im good otherwise its the Braveheart scene with the crazed Irishman: 'The good Lord says yer fooked laddie!' and tools go airborne) but if she is already planning better aluminum heads wont she have to upgrade the valve train as well? And would that not likely solve the float issue?
Asking because im curious if going that route might not save a bit of cash over tiring to fix the valve float problem in the long term.
The 74 400 block is a better choice for a stroker the earlier block has stronger mains supports and you would make more power with the 400 heads with some minor port work 500 lb plus is easily achieved a set of trick flow or indy heads would put it in orbit stroker b engines have nearly insane power capability
There's definitely power left on the table in that Mopar once it swaps over to a good set of aluminum heads it'll be a whole new monster. For now though, it will be a HUGE change over the tired old 400 in there now!
But, that old tired one will likely live again some day as a 499 ;)
Loved this video. Entertaining and informative. I've always been a fan of the BBC because well... it's a chevy. That being said growing up one of my dad's friends was probably the most serious gear head I knew was the quintessential local Mopar or no car kinda guy. Who has since passed away (RIP RON). He had a serious Challenger with a probably 900 NA horsepower 440 but that's a different beast because it was strictly a race car running race fuel. Fiberglass on tubes. He wasn't rich either and always said if he was richer and smarter it would have had a Hemi. He also had a Duster though. That was just a set of tires away from being street legal. In Ohio that's not saying much. That's what impressed me. In his garage he had a pile of 383's and 400's. He told me about how easy it was to acquire them. He just said in the late 70's into the 90s you would only need to wait outside of a scrapyard and these motors just flowed like water into them usually in an RV or Truck that fell apart around the motor. Then he would simply rebuild them. New intake, a mail order cam heads, a Holley and poof more than 1 HP and 1ft/lb. Per Cubic inch. It was consistent too. Parts were easy to find and it wasn't just another BBC. I have mad respect for him and his approach. Those Mopar guys sure do know their stuff and as a younger guy it just blows me away how easily and consistently they get awesome numbers from engines destined for the scrap pile.
Sounds like a good dude that knew how to have some fun and a winning combination for making power! You are very right of how it used to be with these B series and many other big blocks. They lived in RVs and trucks and when the body/chassis died around them the motor more often than not was a mild rebuild away from making serious musclecar power.
Unfortunately those days are more memories and stories than what you'll experience these days. There are still some old guys with hordes of parts in the barns but that's becoming much much more rare. Hope you enjoyed the video!
@@LucoreAuto lol. When I first got my license I went all in (for a teenager) on a 1st gen eclipse GS turbo 2wd to get close to 275hp. Fuel system, turbo, intercooler, pistons, all kinds of money ya know. Thought I was bad ass until my friend bought a 95 Trans AM that he did the heads himself and bottle fed it. Not only did he totally spank me but he also got to drive it everyday not breaking everything. He could get parts for it with a 45 min ride to Summit. He also still had his interior carpeting, passenger seats AC, radio, hell it probably had a spare tire and jack and tools in the trunk. I knew then I wouldn't be doing anymore Japanese stuff. Nothing against them or anything. Just saying. Then I had to grow up and got out of the gearhead life. And lived frivoulously. With increased age I want to get back into it as soon as I'm caught up on things. I haven't found anything that would fit my needs and Budget more than a C5 vette so far and I think that's going to be in my future for sure.
Great video, would like to see more mopar builds.
Thanks,
We've got more Mopar stuff on the horizon for you! 😀 Right now it's a battle for parts to actually BUILD stuff with!
Hopefully you are staying tuned in on this, there are a few more videos on the Mopar that have gone up the past few weeks AND a little on the Pontiac.
I would have liked to see a Ford 460 in this comparison. I assume the opportunity to do this comparison just happened to come up with those particular engines being built and ready for dyno at the same time. Great video.
You are pretty much spot on with this, we just happened to have multiple parallel projects moving forward at the same time with very similar builds. Unfortunate the Big Block Ford scene just isn't a popular option for hot rodding these days, at least not around us. We may still be able to eventually get our hands on one and move a build forward but... we'll see. Actually DO need to make another followup with this though to address things with the Mopar.
I think the Ford 429 would be a better candidate
There's also the Ford 460 as well.
For sure and we would love to have included one, unfortunately no one really does hot rod Big Block Fords around here. These were all motors for projects we had so could use them for the video, some day we hope to include a BBF as well!
@@LucoreAuto Awesome brother.
We built a 400 Mopar motor, early industrial casting, kept the stock crank and rods, put the Truck Flow top end and roller cam in it and made 425hp and 450lbft torque on an engine dyno. I'm building the same 455 that you did with the 4x heads and a comp hydraulic cam, good to see that pontiac torque doesn't disappoint. I've also got a 502 Chevy with 1998 L29 Vortec heads and sequential injection efi I'm building with L21 coil near plug(LS) coils, should be a torque monster for my airstream motorhome. The last is my blown 540 with AFR 357 heads and Holley dominator efi with coil neat plug ignition also, I'm glad to see this test because not everything needs to be a high end build like my 540 to be a great engine, and not everyone wants a late hemi or LS motor in their classic car, with that kind of torque out of any of these motors they are going to be a blast with the correct gearing, good job, keep them coming, let's see what that power equates to quarter mile times.
Thanks for the view and response, we are definitely happy with the results we got on these things and they'll be QUITE fun once we get the rides but together! One thing that often gets lost in the hotrodding motor is how much DO you need versus can you make? Could we have built each of these to make more than 500hp? Sure, there's plenty of options and examples out there. But at what cost? And what ELSE needs upgraded to support that level of power? Before you know it the build has gone from a simple motor rebuild to an entire new car!
ALL the power isn't ALWAYS the answer!
you only made 425hp from all that? wtf...
My Uncle had a 455 Olds in his jet boat. You could count on it blowing up every summer. But when it ran that was a very fast boat.
Fast cheap or reliable, pick 2? ;)
The 451 is by far amazing and very rare
Make sure to watch the videos in the Momma's Mopar playlist it got a LOT better. Was unfortunately pretty hobbled during this test.
you dont run aluminum heads "out of the box",especially pro comps
Oh you can be certain MANY people do, though it's certainly not advised.
@Austin Carlson yeah you build engines.
thanks for the warning
@Dave Micolichek I checked our Edelbrock Big Block heads and they were great. We port matched the intake to the heads and were done. Still never a good idea to install anything without a good inspection.
whats the damn oint of buying them assembled then? full of metal, shitty valve springs, etc....and people pay more?
Props to that big Indian. Didn't take much to wake those things right up. I had a 1974 Formula 455. 250 net hp. Did a full rebuild of that thing and it really carried the mail afterward. Mild cam with a set of cleaned up #13 heads to bring up the compression ratio and increase valve size. 13.02 on street tires while spinning them through 60ft. Daily driver with some serious giddy-up.
What I am building is a 470 RB MoPar 10.5:1 compression with Trick Flow heads, roller cam and a tunnel ram with 2 750 Mighty Demons. I have a JW 727reverse manual valve body trans, 8" 4000 stall JW converter and a 4.10 Dana 60. Just a street car :)
Lol yup sounds like just a mild mannered street car right there! Tach goes one way, fuel gauge goes the other, and a smile grows on your face rapidly! ;)
The RB stuff topped with some good flowing heads is ALWAYS a great formula for major power. God be with those rear tires.
Good video. I appreciate your attempt at a true apples to apples comparison. The horsepower, and torque numbers come in pretty much where I expected. I was certain the Pontiac would edge out the competition in Torque. No surprise the Chevy had peak horsepower. The flow capabilities of the big block Chevy heads are in another world, in comparison to the other engines. The Pontiac induction system was very well suited to the engine. I feel the Oldsmobile would have benefited from a dual plane intake. To be honest a factory cast iron intake ( non EGR ) is hard to beat on a Oldsmobile. I was disappointed in the Mopar. First I would like to have seen you test a stock stroke 440. You did the Mopar no favors with those cylinder heads. Better ( 915. or 906 ) heads would have yielded slightly better results. The real issue was the valve float. I was expecting 440 H P , and 495 torque from the Mopar. Again good video, reminds people that on the street Torque is king
Thank you for the view and well thought out comment! Your thinking is definitely in line with ours, and quite honestly WE would love to see the Olds run on a different intake as well to see what difference it would make. Unfortunately, engine building and dyno time costs money!
With the Mopar unfortunately it was a case of work with what we've got. There's NO doubt if we had a slightly better set of iron heads and got rid of the valve float ... with the extra breath and RPM it very likely would have been in at least 2nd place for horsepower. The question asked in the video is a serious one though. Would you? Would you spend $300 on a set of 906 heads, $1000-1200 having them built, and run them? Or spend essentially the same money for a GOOD set of aluminum heads that are in every way superior?
@@LucoreAuto Thank you for your response. I completely understand, the constraints of time, and money. I also agree, on the big block Mopar. Unless you are doing a real " low budget " build, or a " correct " restoration. There is really no reason to not spring for aftermarket aluminum heads. They are superior in every way. The Oldsmobile, and Pontiac aluminum heads are a improvement over stock, but not a huge difference in flow, big difference in weight.There is soooo much that can be done with the Pontiac heads. Your test just scratched the surface. The main benefit of aluminum heads on the big block Chevrolet over factory big valve, rectangular port cylinder heads IS WEIGHT ! Bust a gut lifting those stock hunks of iron. Got a little long winded. Thanks
@@johnringel9892 i bowl ported my big block mopar motorhome heads, put new valves in, and had a valve job done for far less than 1k. i cant justify aluminum head prices, especially assembled ones that come with crap springs and full of metal.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 I recall, I did say something about using iron heads on a budget build. I am well acquainted with the fact that there are no " use them right out of the box " aluminum heads. My experience is they all need to be disassembled, and cleaned. Check the cave guides, maybe clean up the valve seating. Most you will want to invest in quality valve spring, locks, and retainers. Items you were going to replace anyway on the stock heads. With all of that said. When you look at all that you gain. I still maintain it makes sense to invest in aftermarket aluminum heads. That's my 2 cents. Thanks for your response
@@johnringel9892 there's a CHANCE we may pull the Poncho heads at some point and have them ported then run it again, just to see the TRUE difference in power compared to all the urban legends. We'll see. The Mopar... we'll never spend another dime on those things! For the $1300 we spent in fully rebuilding them, you can basically buy a set of good aluminums have them checked and replace the junk parts ... and only be a st a LITTLE more money for a FAR better head!
"big block" 🤣🤣🤣 last time i checked pontiac didnt have a small block or big block it was just a pontiac v8
Yes yes yes we all know, EVERY Pontiac guy brings that up :) But unless we just want to play with ourselves all the time, have to pick the Big Blocks to play with.
Pontiac engines are referred to not as big blocks, but as large blocks. Though the journal sizes are different between a 326 and a 455 the blocks are the same lengths, widths, etc. Long Live Pontiac .Then best sounding motor at high rpms..
Hi! First of all,thank you for making a very fair and subjective comparison video between all these engines. Real world,real wallet costs and results are appreciated. Secondly, I'm building a '76 Trans Am with basically the same Poncho engine. Craigslist '76 Y4 code 455 bored .030 over,stock crank,forged pistons and rods,etc.,etc. I have installed the engine,did a proper break-in with plenty of zinc additive for the flat tappet RV cam and it's pretty stout. However,I'm running the big 124cc smog heads temporarily to make sure the bottom end was good to go. I'm about to change the heads out for a set of 1974 5C/4 93cc units(same valve sizes as 124cc) fresh from the machine shop with 3 angle valve job and light porting. I expect these heads to put my compression up to between about 9.2-9.5:1. Just curious as to the size (cc's) of the 6X heads you used so I can get an idea of what to expect after the head swap. Thanks!
Philip cross, I believe they are 116 CC's, but I don't have my books handy right now, but I believe the 6x's are in the 90cc range.
@@jeffhartgers7284 Thank you--I appreciate it. I did the head swap since posting this comment,and I'm happy to say that the 93cc heads really woke that engine up. I also went with new pushrods and Comp Cams Roller tips with Polylocks. I wanted to go with a Jet Stage2 Quadrajet for carburation,but couldn't find what I wanted,so I stepped up to an Edelbrock 800 cfm carb with electric choke. All that,along with an Edelbrock Performer intake and Summit 2 1/2" exhaust is a strong combination for old school horsepower. I haven't dyno'd it yet,but seat-of-the-pants guesstimate is 420-440 HP at the crank.Love my big Poncho! Thanks again for the great video and info!
I was a machinist @ Total Automotive Engineering in Detroit Mi. from 1994 until 2002 and we had an employee racing a 500+ in 440 running iron heads and he dyno'd over 600 hp. And a 400 Pontiac we did for a fellow employee, we got 560 lbs/ft off torque and 400 hp. (at only 2800 rpm it made 463 lbs ft of torque!)
So basically what this proves is that if you use the right parts for what you need for your build parameters you will make a lot of usable power no matter what engine you choose. The better it breathes the more power you make, it's all about where you need the power, what RPM range. I think a good Mopar 440 will be better than an Olds or Pontiac and cheaper to build per HP.
There are definitely some interesting lessons to learn here, at least we think so. A 440 is definitely a capable platform, and a lot of the same pieces we used on this motor would be similar to what that would be using. Two of the big benefits for us doing this with a 400 versus a 440 are the lack of many people actually SHOWING this kind of build, and the reduced rotating mass SHOULD let it rev further and faster than a similar displacement 440.
Whats better I think depends on what it's going in to. Any of these engines can be built enough to fry the tires on the street. If you have a 2 door muscle car and you can't afford to adequately build the stock engine, sell it to someone who can. For 40 years I've been watching people putting Chevy 350's or other blocks into Pontiacs because it's cheaper, and it takes a little knowledge to build a stock Pontiac correctly. But now we have Butlers and others and many aftermarket parts so there is no excuse now :)
Stumbled upon this video. I’ve been an Oldsmobile guy since I was a teenager and I am 54. I do love all of these engines and I play with Pontiacs as well. Just about everything you said is true cost parts etc. Oldsmobile”s are a little more pricier than you said but you hit their troubles pretty much on with the oil system. I think if you used the performer RPM intake the torque would’ve been very close to the Pontiac and Chevy. Curious if you would like to divulge some of the specs on the camshaft. And on the Oldsmobile did you switch the stock tower rocker system for an adjustable roller rocker system?
We are definitely curious what difference an intake swap on the Olds would have done, especially considering all the machine shop trickery inside the Pontiac. That the Olds is within striking distance.. it really makes for some interesting thoughts. The Olds cam card we posted on our Instagram if you look for LucoreRacing on there you'll find it.
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing I went there. That is one step below make cam. I have the 22 Dash25 on a 110 lobe separation angle because originally I was running power brakes. That cam originally was ground with a 108 and Joe added a 110 for power brakes. I put my engine together in 1993. It’s a 1967 400 that is now 411 in.³ and 10.4 to 1 compression with heavily ported sea heads andA lot of low end machine work. When I had a torque or intake on it, that engine hit 7000 RPMs a couple of times. No I am not lying I’ve had a couple friends witness it
@@DMR67442 the cam certainly isn't overly rowdy, it's meant for a '65 Olds F-85 that's just going to be a cruiser and street bruiser. Occasional blasts down the track may happen but it's more just for fun and daily driveavle hotrod duties.
Spinning one of these big old machines up past 5600 or so gets a little worrisome especially on rods that are... 45-50+ years old. Now with that said there IS a chance we do a little head work on this aluminum chunks and maybe throw a little juice or boost at it down the line... we'll see! ;)
Lucore Auto and LucoreRacing That was an excellent choice for a camshaft. Especially if it’s an automatic car. My 67442 convertible is a four-speed with 410 gears
@@DMR67442 it is indeed, 700R4 automatic, should work very nicely once we have time to finally put the car together! :)
Your dyno exhaust system sounds awesome. I’d like to be your neighbor. 🤣
I had 1971 Pontiac Bonneville, with the 455. Awesome engine with amazing performance even at high mileage. Only downside was gas mileage.
Well when fuel was only a few dimes per gallon it wasn't such a big deal, now... we try to measure in smiles per gallon instead ;)
That’s Eldelbrock heads. Butler Performance is a great resource for Pontiac motors, and so is Kaufman. Love my Pontiac.
Eventually this 455 MAY wear a set of heads from Butler or Kaufman.. it doesn't really NEED them but would certainly improve performance even more. Full disclosure there's a '68 LeMans waiting in the wings for a 400-461 stroker setup that will be much more a race car... you'll see in upcoming videos :)
Really miss my 2 455 Pontiac motors. I think about em all the time. I sold my trans am and all my Pontiac stuff around 2009 and it seems like right after that the prices skyrocketed on them. Now I have a factory yellow 78 Z28 California car with a 327 someone swapped in. It run really reliable but will not shred tires from a roll like the Pontiacs.😐 live and learn I guess
@@midsouth2strokes185 they definitely have gone up in value over the past few years as it becomes harder and harder to find an early generation buildable 455! Although the lack of good 455 cores has lead to some really great builds out of the 400s that are as strong if not stronger. Smaller main journal size and you can get similar displacement for not a lot of work, and off the shelf parts!
Hopefully you are still enjoying your Z28, definitely a great car BUT... totally different kind of tire melter compared to the Big Ole Pontiac torque factory!
Don't forget the awesome CV1 heads for a Pontiac !!!
the cv-1 by rolland racing as well as the ra5 heads by dci motorsports and ra5.com are badass choices as well
a Cadillac 472 should be included
Would love to show one of those off unfortunately don't have access to one!
It would decimate them all
@Dave Micolichek we are hunting for a 500 to build as we speak actually! :)
@@JRRowen-ht6du we're working on it!
yeah good luck finding them. I had a 1972 years ago It had some good get up and go for the tank it was in. I wanted to swap it into my Monte Carlo, but didn't have the skills at the time.
Awesome... I have a 65 Olds F85 too... and a spare 455. The F85 currently has the original 225 cid in it! lol... I would look forward to digging deeper and hope to see more on Rich's Olds. Subscribed!
225 aluminum V8? Don't get rid of that.
Awesome video and Awesome to see the comparison!! If you use the best Chevy LS 6 head.. You need the 1973-74 SD 455 head with 9.5:1. C.R. but then again, expensive !! But a really fair comparison!!! Thanks
Thank you for watching and commenting. There definitely are more expensive ways we could have run this test on all the different platforms but wanted to make things as "normal and neutral" as we could!
You can get 496-502 cubes out of a standard deck big block chevy pretty easily
The Chevy is certainly well known as being able knock on that 500 CI mark, and rather commonly in the hotrod world. Taking these B series Mopars up that far is something that's much less well known, just something we felt needed brought to peoples attention. But, hard to argue with the 50+ years of success the BBC has shown powering... well pretty much anything and everything!
@@LucoreAuto oh ok, you said it has to be done with a tall deck motor so i didn't realize what you were saying i guess.👍 we're on the same page now.
@@andy347495 if I wasn't clear I apologize, there was so much data to discuss in this video my brain was a bit mush by the end!
you can get 512 ci out of a big block mopar easy too.
@@frigglebiscuit7484 Indeed you can, the 440s have a CRAZY potential for strokers. Even these 400s are able to get to that 500ci mark which... you MAY see in a build in the not toooooo distant future ;)
Can we get a 472 or 500 caddy?
The unsung/underdog of all big blocks.
Stuffed afew into some camaros and firechickens over the years,made awesome drag cars. Haha
We are actually hunting for a buildable 500 Cadi since so many people have been asking for them, not quite as available as they used to be! Unfortunately lots of people were stuffing them into drag cars! ;)
We may be setting up a 500 Cubic Inch battle for the somewhat near future sooooo we'll see what we can find!
Awesome..I can't wait.
In the mid 70s to early 80s, people never thought about the big ol Cadillacs,mind you Cadillac never advertised their engine nunbers so it was always turned away... we used to go to wrecking yards and look for old caddy Limos or hearsts and rip out out the engines. Cheap horsepower and combined into lightweight car, toss on some headers and throw some timing at it, and off ya go. Fast, cheap horsepower back then, and the look on peoples faces when a crappy old Oldsmobile omega with a 472 caddy in it smokes their brand new Buick GN.. hahah
@@mikehunt9894 It's definitely the ultimate in large motor in a small package stuffing the powerplant out of a land barge into something.. well anything that wasn't barely able to fit in a garage. Unfortunately the days of easily finding those monsters are over so we are going to be a bit more out of pocket to pick one up. THEN we have to figure out what they heck to put it in!
@@LucoreAuto I've always wanted to put one in a Lincoln. Make some fanboys cry a little. Hahaha but, it does make sense in many ways. Lol.😉
@@mikehunt9894 A landboat landspeed car might be kinda fun? ;)
Great test. Ty. I hear the Ford guys. Run a 1970 -71 Lincoln 460 with the dove-c heads. One very powerful engine that is overlooked.
Thank you for the watch and comment! We hear them as well and wish we could have included them in this test/video unfortunately there just aren't many people building BBF projects these days. Most people building hot rods or muscle cars with for power are doing 351 or 302 power, or if they're looking for speed and modern go Coyote. We're certainly open to building one for a customer though, there's definitely power and data to be found!
A well kept secret 😉
From my experience with MOPARs building a set of iron heads is usually just as expensive in the long run as buying aftermarket aluminum ones.
No idea how we missed this comment, but you are certainly right! For only a few hundred dollars more we ended up doing a brand new set of aluminum heads on that Mopar. The video is actually going live TONIGHT!
if you have valve float at 5k you got somthing really wrong with your spring setup.
Unfortunately the springs are being overpowered, definitely not an ideal situation. There's also an issue that the cheap SBI valves that were used in the rebuild are HEAVY compared to what would ideally be in there.
Knowing the cast iron heads will only be on this motor for a reasonably short time as she gets used to the new setup and power levels, it just wasn't worth the money and frustration to keep fighting it.
Is it just me or does the pontiac 455 look twice as big as the olds 455❓ great video btw ✌️
It definitely looks big with the blue paint on everything, and the perspective because it's closer to the camera. OR it's cause Pontiacs are big awesome torque monsters! ;)
@@LucoreAuto torque monster is definitely the game..even back in the smogged and bogged big GM land yacts in about 74/75 even though they didn't go fast off the line boy did they build up torque when you got on them it took him awhile but they would just keep on moving...
I had a big old lead sled Granville was like that.. that 455 4 Barrel when you put your foot into it it took a while but if you held your foot into it although it was smogged and bogged you could feel that torque. would just pretty much be ready to blast off into Infinity.
the Olds are the same way that 455 olds that powered those 98 regency, and delta 88 royales big boats people don't realize when gm it built what I call the stripes mobile.. that GM RV to rival Winnebago all utility vehicle they went with the Olds motor just because of the torque
it's all in the paint......magic paint. ;)
I think you did a great job …. Thanks for the video awesome 😊
Thanks Tony! 😊 whole lot of money involved in this video just glad so many people seem to be interested in it!