When did Gandalf know Bilbo had The One Ring? | Tolkien Explained
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 01. 2023
- Today, we cover the popular question - when did Gandalf realize Bilbo's ring was The One Ring? It can be easy, especially going off the Hobbit films, to see Gandalf as foolish for not knowing this for so many years, but we'll take a look at WHAT Gandalf knew and WHEN he knew it!
Hit subscribe and the bell for great Tolkien content every week!
Nerd of the Rings on PATREON: / nerdoftherings
NOTR merch: nerdoftherings.creator-spring...
To purchase artist work, check out these amazing artists!
Tulikoura - www.deviantart.com/tulikoura
Matthew Stewart - www.matthew-stewart.com/
BellaBergolts - www.deviantart.com/bellabergolts
Magdalena Katanska - www.artstation.com/magdalenak... / qualiney
Jerry Vanderstelt - store.vandersteltstudio.com/m...
Anna Podedworna - www.artstation.com/akreon
Jenny Dolfen - goldseven.wordpress.com/
Turner Mohan - turner_mohan
Ted Nasmith - www.tednasmith.com/shop/
Anke Eissmann - anke.edoras-art.de/anke_illust...
Aronja Art - / aronjaart
Ivan Cavini - / ivan_cavini
Sara Morello - www.artstation.com/saramorello
Matěj Čadil - www.etsy.com/people/matejcadil
Tulikoura - www.deviantart.com/tulikoura
Aegeri - www.deviantart.com/aegeri
Sergio Botero - www.artstation.com/sboterod
Noe Leyva - / noeleyvart
Clemence Morisseau - www.artstation.com/kahirie
Edvige Faini - edvigefaini.com , edvige.faini , edvige_faini
Dzmitry Yakhouski - / yakhovsky
Gandalf in the archives of Minas Tirith - Anke Eissmann
Gandalf Frodo - this is the master ring - Matthew Stewart
Gandalf Frodo and the Ring - Elrodimus Flash
gandalf returns to hobbiton - John Howe
gandalf - Jenny Dolfen
gandalf-moria
Gandalf - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Gandalf Frodo and the Ring - Elrodimus Flash
Gandalf - Elrodimus Flash
Gandalf - JG Jones
Cirdan - alystraea
Gandalf and Shadowfax - Anke Eissmann
lord of the rings the white council
Gandalf the Grey - Elrodimus Flash
necromancer in dol guldur - anotherstrangerme
thrain, son of thror - Turner Mohan
Smaug and Bilbo - Andrea Piparo
bilbo baggins - skullb*st*rd
the young bilbo - Sara Morello
gandalf - skullb*st*rd
Captured by the Spiders - Alan Lee
Dol Guldur - Angus McBride
Bilbo
Gandalf - Elrodimus Flash
sketch gollum cave - Felix Englund
Gandalf in the Shire - Dzmitry Yakhouski
Visit to Bilbo - Alan Lee
Erebor - Aronja Art
Dale - Matthew Stewart
Barad-dur - John Howe
Gandalf - Anke Eissmann
Gandalf - John_Howe
saruman in orthanc - anotherstranger me
Saruman and Palantir - Angus McBride
The Lord of Rivendell - Peter Xavier Price
Saruman - John Howe
Isengard - Ivan Cavini
Saruman - Steve Airola
saruman with the palantir - kuliszu
saruman of many colours - Tolman Cotton
Gandalf and Frodo - Ivan Cavini
Saruman Palantir - Steve Airola
Saruman - Catherine Karina Chmiel
saruman - Tom Romain
saruman - Dzmitry Yakhouski
Bilbo Baggins - Anke Eissmann
Gandalf at Bag End - Anke Eissmann
Bilbo Reading - Matthew Stewart
old took - Matej Cadil
Bilbo Leaves Bag End - Elrodimus Flash
Gandalf3 - Elrodimus Flash
Celebrimbor - YidanYuan
Celebrimbor - Angus_McBride
Gandalf Frodo - this is the master ring - Matthew Stewart
Gandalf the Grey - Daniel Govar
Gandalf - Catherine Karina Chmiel
celebrimbor and annatar - anotherstrangerme
Gandalf - John Howe
The Elven Rings - Ralph Damiani
but the ring was lost - Matej Cadil
bilbo baggins - aegeri
Bilbo - Steve Airola
Frodo grieves for Bilbo - Anke Eissmann
The Arrival of Gandalf - Darrell Sweet
A long expected party - Steamey
shadow of the past - Alan Lee
Gandalf in Archives Minas Tirith - Matthew Stewart
Gandalf in Hobbiton - John Howe
gandalf on the road - skullb*st*rd
Legolas and Gandalf - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Gollum - Steve Airola
Aragorn on a mission - Kip Rasmussen
Gandalf - Jenny Dolfen
Saruman - Elrodimus Flash
Saruman Palantir - Steve Airola
Gandalf_Rides_to_Minas_Tirith - Ted Nasmith
Gandalf in the archives of Minas Tirith - Anke Eissmann
Gollum - Matthew Stewart
Smeagol and the Ring - Anke Eissmann
Gandalf The Grey - John Howe
Gandalf comes to Bag End - Anke Eissmann
Gandalf Frodo and the Ring - Elrodimus Flash
Gandalf the Grey - Anna Kulisz
Gandalf - Soni Alcorn-Hender
The Dwarf Lords - Ralph Damiani
9 Rings - Ralph Damiani
The Great Eye - Ralph Damiani
The Archive - Lída Holubová
Gandalf the White - John Howe
Gandalf and Frodo - Ivan Cavini
Bilbo Baggins - Alan Lee
Bilbo Baggins - aegeri
in the garden of bag end - matej cadil
Gandalf - John Howe
bilbo in rivendell - Matej Cadil
gollum - aegeri
Riddles In The Dark - John Howe
Bilbo Leaves Bag End - Elrodimus Flash
gandalf the grey - Jerry Vanderstelt
Gollum Frodo Sam - John Howe
The Shadow of Sauron - Ted Nasmith
Gandalf in the Shire - Dzmitry Yakhouski
#lordoftherings #tolkien #gandalf - Zábava
What other questions about Middle-earth would you like to see me tackle on the channel? (And yeah, I couldn't resist making this thumbnail inspired by the Riddler meme. haha)
Might be a stupid question but I've always wondered how some elves can fight balrogs and other maiar. At the end of the day they are maiar so are god's.
I wonder if orchs are immortal just like elevs becouse they were like made by elves. Yes or no???
why saruman didnt take gandalfs fire ring when he prisoned him
Why do you think Tolkien used the theme of land being swallowed by water so often?
An excellent video again. I find your videos explain everything so simply and easy to understand.
I would love to understand the relationship between Elves & Dwarves and why there is hate between Legolas & Gimli then by the end they are friends, unless you’ve already covered it. It is just a simple matter of different races or is there something more to it. Thank you
"The language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here... I'll wait till we're in Rivendell. It'll freak Elrond out; just wait till you see his face."
😂
In the book aragorn also doesn't let the hobbits talk about mordor while walking to weathertop "with the enemies servants so close at hand'... But then himself says it outloud along with with the name sauron 😂🤦
There's a specific reason for that, Rivendell's border was protected by Elrond's power, therefore Gandalf could use the black Speech more freely
@@corinth492 I know. I was making a joke....
Gandalf: * almost gives Elrond a heart attack using black speech *
Boromir: " it's a gift"
Gandalf: DID I STUTTER?! Ash nazg durbatulûk....
Elrond: * not again *
Bilbo's decision to leave the One Ring to Frodo sets him apart as a truly unique character in the story. No one else in the tale has the foresight and selflessness to willingly give up the ring, knowing the immense power and temptation it holds. He is truly a one-of-a-kind hero.
And that scene in Fellowship is done to perfection. The acting, the cinematography, the music, it all perfectly shows how much trouble Bilbo is having letting it go, he then rushes out the door once he does and when he's out, we see the relief on his face. It shows perfectly how much of a burden the Ring is and with this little context, we can already tell how strong Bilbo is to be able to let it go
Didn’t Frodo offer the ring freely to Gandalf when Gandalf first explained it to him in the Shire? Didn’t Frodo say to Galadriel that he would freely give it to her if she asked for it? And, didn’t Sam freely give it back to Frodo after Sam rescued Frodo in the tower of Cirith Ungol? My point is not to diminish in any way Bilbo’s exemplary attributes, but simply to show that the other hobbits of the Shire who possessed the ring share those attributes.
@@jneumy566 not even touching the anvil sounding noise when the ring hits the floor. Such a little thing, but it illustrates the “weight” that burdens the one who carries it.
@@jpe1 I think the difference there is that Bilbo had owned the Ring for decades, so it had all that time to get a hold on him. Frodo had barely possessed it yet. Not that Frodo isn't to be commended - he did offer it to Galadriel later on too, but again, he'd only had it for a little while and it hadn't had enough time to grip him. The same goes for Sam. Then, as Sauron's power grew and as Frodo approached closer to Mordor, the Ring gained in power and therefore in hold over Frodo's mind and heart.
Edit: Some kind people have pointed out an error I made. . .oops. Okay, so Frodo possessed the Ring for 17 years before he left the Shire (it's been a while since I read the books). However, I think my point still stands. Bilbo had it for over 60 years and used it multiple times, while Frodo (I think) never or rarely used it. I also think that Frodo regarded it far more warily than Bilbo, especially after Gandalf's warning after the party. Bilbo thought it was just something pretty and useful, but Frodo got a hint from Gandalf that it was far more than that. In any case, Frodo's strength is still commendable and he undoubtedly deserves a seat among Hador, Hurin, Turin, Beren and all the mighty Elf-friends of old!
@@jneumy566 You kind of make me wanna go rewatch that scene.
Christopher Lee and Ian McKellen are two of the greatest casting decisions in cinematic history.
No doubt. Of all the great casting choices (Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man, Emma Watson as Hermoine Granger, Alan Rickman as Severus Snape, etc.), those two really stand out. Legendary.
@@precoius My favorite Alan Rickman character was Marvin the paranoid Android from The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
@@shootthemoon6072 My favorite is his character in Galaxy Quest; the story arc for the character is so good and clearly is a homage to Leonard Nimoy's own lifes arc on playing Spock. Alan Rickman was truly a treasure.
And perfect for the roles they had.
Did you know Christopher Lee has a heavy metal Christmas album?
My favorite scene in the film trilogy is when Gandalf is talking with Frodo in Moria.
"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement. Even the very Wise cannot see all ends."
Tolkien was an officer in the great war (ww1) and that explains that why one cannot decide who dies and who lives when shell fragments take so many good men
That is one of the greatest lines in the Trilogy….
Do you know the story of Oedipus Rex? To avoid a prophecy people did evil or foolish things. And brought it to pass. if they had not they would have escaped it.
This is how I measure REAL power when playing D & D.
Any fool can take a life, but it takes a lot more effort to restore it.
I've played (on and off) since 1978, and to date only 5 of my characters have achieved this level.
@@andyhart358 Lvl 9? That's not a good thing, you need better friends. I've had 11 campaigns as a once a month player that reached that level and I started playing in 94.
Always thought it was funny in the movies that if Gandalf had been wrong about the ring he would have given Frodo a horrible burn on his palm when he took it straight out of the fire.
That's funny, never thought of that
I dont know if it's in the book, but in the movie Gandalf states that the ring is quite cool before dropping it in Frodos hands
@@shakon1618 It's in the book.
Every time Frodo put on the ring, I wondered…will it get stuck? Will he need soap to take it off? Good thing they ran out of food and Frodo didn’t gain weight.
@@Meuracas the ring changes its shape to fit perfectly to whoever wears it.
I always thought Bilbo never gets enough credit for being the only being in this story able to give up the one ring on his own especially with how long and how much he had used it.
Sam also gives it away willingly. Although a ring bearer for such a short time he still does part with it voluntarily. This is why he is allowed to go to the undying lands. As he was a ring bearer. Even though he only has it for a few hours, no one else wants to touch it as they know it takes hold and they wouldn’t be able to withstand its evil and part with it. It’s as Gandalf says “the ring wants to be found”. So Sam and bilbo. Frodo done well up until the last minute. Which I thought was an unfair ending for him.
Sam, Gandalf, and Bombadil all have the ring for a time and give it back to Frodo.
The book talks about it and how great Bilbos will is.
@@paigecartwright4947 The One Ring is inherently unfair. Nobody, not the humblest hobbit, the staunchest dwarf, the most devoted elf, or the wisest Maiar, nobody except possibly one of the Valar, could actually have voluntarily have thrown the ring into Mount Doom. That is the nature of its power. At Mount Doom, the absolute center of its power, its grip on anybody holding it is so absolute that even the strongest resistance would be inadequate to allow somebody to destroy it of their own free will. Which is, indirectly, why Samwise is so impressive even though he carries the ring for such a short time - he carried it so close to Mount Doom, where it would have gripped his mind almost instantly, but still had the fortitude to let it go.
Hobbits without sin can hold it longer as they only want to live a peaceful life. Men want power. Dwarf want wealth. Elves want immortal life.
I love the way it's shot throughout the film because it looks like Gandalf just casually hopped on horseback and popped over to Minas Tirith from the shire in like, a few days or so but coming from the books, we known it's been nearly 20 years since he had the suspicion that Bilbo's ring was sus. And in the meantime did a bunch of things within that timeframe to confirm his suspicions.
@@kurtzahringer9750 Oh absolutely! It makes sense from a movie/different medium perspective 100%
In the movie's defense, they never actually say how much time has elapsed. It's shot to make it look like Gandalf went to Minas Tirith, found the scroll, and rode right back, as this gets the plot moving faster. But for all we know, those 17 years could have passed in between scenes.
I thought Gandalf had an ability to ride like the wind or something like that on that special horse that wasn't a horse...
@@theradioweyr Shadowfax? He didn't have him yet in that part of the story. He gets Shadowfax in Rohan after his resurrection as Gandalf the White if I recall. (And Shadowfax was indeed a horse, just of a special breed from Valinor called the Mearas.)
@@Pixis1 It could, but I think it's agreed that the movie has a different timeline to the books.
Short answer: Gandalf assumed Bilbo had a lesser ring until the events of LOTR.
But wow! That is a lot of context you packed into one video, great job!
Gandalf knew the ring made him invisible. It would seem like ignorance on his part that he did not educate himself on the One Ring and all of its abilities.
Even if other invisibility RIngs existed, it would have been worth Checking out immediately.
@@dragonchr15 Saruman did a marvelous job of convincing everyone, Gandalf included, that the One Ring had rolled down the Anduin into the sea and he was well known for his ability, in this case, to deceive and manipulate others. It's also questionable that the Free Peoples knew that much about the One Ring's abilities. It was crafted by Sauron and Isildur only had it for a couple of years before the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. It's also not known if any of the Elven smiths of Eregion who played a role in the crafting of the other Rings of Power survived the War of the Elves and Sauron.
Furthermore, Gandalf's tasks were to help the Free Peoples resist Sauron, not to specifically track down the One Ring. He had a lot of other responsibilities as well.
no he didn't. “I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first”
@@claudiuspulcher2440 Exactly. Saruman gaslit them all
Hi! If anyone is reading this comment, kindly please tell me the correct order I should be reading The Lord of the Rings series, is it in the follwing order: The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King?
If yes, then what about the other LOTR books like 'The Children of the Hurin' or 'Unfinished Tales of Numenor & Middle Earth'? Are these and some other books like these being shown on the internet a part of the main LOTR books or are these just appendices? Anyone kindly explain, it would mean a lot.
So let me get this straight. In the Hobbit, Tolkien wrote a magic ring into the story as a way for Bilbo to get out of a tough spot. Then he went back, took that ring, and made it the central plot point of the entire saga? That's cool.
You don't think Tolkien had a bigger vision? The ring represents what we call "sin." I'm pretty sure it wasn't just an ex machina for a way out of a single situation. The man created his own languages for crying out loud😆. His brilliance as a writer to tell a bigger story shouldn't be doubted. I'm 90% sure the nature of the ring wasn't an afterthought. (I only know the order I read in. Never looked into the order he wrote them. But I'd be surprised if the nature of the ring was an afterthought.)
@@donavonbain4332 In the original version of the Hobbit, it's very much just a normal magical ring; Tolkien edited the Hobbit for its second edition while he was writing Lord of the Rings, and in the second edition the ring is much more emphasized and its impact on Gollum is more pronounced.
@@bbctol is it? Just normal? Or just portrayed that way? (As that fits how the ring seems. ..unornatte.) Sorry I was distracted and not researched the order he wrote the stories in irl. I still think he intended this
Yeah, I took a slight look again at his progression... yeah, No. This was clearly not an after thought. Unless you wanna say The Spirit Of God was leading him the whole time. Which🫠Maybe so. He just afterthought it by directed by God. Or was a Brilliant man. Take your pick.
But tbh, either way! Because of the importance, and many looping intricacies; I don't see this being an after thought. This either pre conceived or directed by God. I'm willing to accept either😁
@@donavonbain4332 Tolkien based his ring on the Ring of Gyges, a thought experiment by Plato. Plato pondered if a man would still act justly if he couldn't be seen committing crimes.
This resonated with the devout catholic (sin, good vs. evil) so he put it in the whimsical book he was writing for his children.
Everything else came later.
Gandalf's love of the halflings leaf clearly slowed his mind...💚
Alright Saruman, considering you couldn't copy what your buddy did I feel that you have no right to criticise anyone's failures.
@@benjamindavidson4680especially considering Saruman had his own barrels full of Longbottom Leaf in the pantry/stores at Isengard
You said that it wasn't mentioned in the films that there were lesser rings made, but Gandalf has a line like "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly." I always assumed that to mean rings that weren't one of the great rings.
Me too - more of a D&D world where there's all sorts of things going on and even in Middle Earth this is just one of many stories (though a big one!). There's other little things mentioned in Hobbit (book) that elude to this as he mentions "I looked for an adventurer or even a hero for our quest, but as I could find none in this part of the world I decided on a burglar" (paraphrase from memory) meaning Bilbo and in reference to the 14th member of their party (since Gandalf was not an official member).
💯
The finger rings are mentioned but not the mithril rings used to make the chainshirt.
when I read your quote I hear gandalfs voice
That is exactly what he means, for those who know how to use magic the lesser rings are just curiosities but for those who don't they can be quite dangerous. The great rings on the other hand are dangerous for everyone.
For the movie at least, I knew that Gandalf knew when he told Bilbo, "You haven't aged a day." I'll never forget the look on his face and how all of the joy just seemed to drain from it. He then quickly laughed it off, but his mind was set. He only needed to get the proof to confirm what he knew.
It was still only a suspicion.
@@jessepollard7132 Given Gandalf's tremendous talents, I'd say his guesses are better than most people's certainties.
Bro was put on Middle Earth as a Mayar to guide humanity/creation as a "angel" would in the bible, but least interfere to keep their free will(which is why he only uses light magic against the dark(which is basically heaven vs hell), and you think he would not know?
@@magnem1043 When he took physical form his memory was deliberately weakened and suppressed thus did NOT REMEMBER. Now after Gandalf became Gandalf the white, his memory would have been greatly restored.
Gandalf the Yellow
Alright, you convinced me. I'll rewatch the movies today with this context in mind.
The Bilbo's love of food and a quiet life overpowered the ring.
I can't imagine how dumb Gandalf must have felt when he discovered the truth. I would punch myself mentally for not realizing that the most dangerous thing in the entire world has been under my nose all this time.
Not dumb. More like incredulity at the unbelievable unlikely chance that the Ring just happened to have ended up with Bilbo of all people. There were many many “lesser” magic rings in Middle Earth aside from the rings of power. Also, at that time, Gandalf had no reason not to trust and go by the words of Saruman.
Then again had he discovered it earlier they would have probably failed to destroy it
The Ring has an intelligence, it will deceive if it furthers it's purpose. Gandalf was deceived. BUT... he sensed the deceit, he smelt Sauron, and went to the archives of Minas Tirith, to learn of the times before he, Gandalf, existed in Middle Earth. There he learned how to test the Ring. And so the Ring betrayed itself to the one who was sent to find It and Its master.
the ultimate " Son of a bit**.." moment
That‘s exactly what Saruman said.
Well Gandalf did say in fellowship to Bilbo "there are many magic rings and none of them should be used lightly" which did make me think at the time how many total there are 🤔
But makes sense to me, if the greatest evil object in the world in in possession of his friend he wanted to make ABSOLUTELY certain that it was the one
Just glad he found out in the end 😂
He knew there were three elf rings, seven dwarf rings, nine human ones and the one ring. So twenty in total, although some of them were lost or something.
@Naomi’s Randomness rings of power yes, but 'other' magic rings..............
@@naomisrandomness8223 There was a number of lesser rings, basically made as practice while Sauron was teaching the elves.
There were an unknown number of "lesser rings" which, like the "one ring" were rather plain in appearance. It was more likely than not that the ring Bilbo found was a "lesser ring".
3 (for elves) + 9 (for men) + 7 (for dwarves) + 1 (to rule them all) = 20 Rings of Power by Sauron. Surely there are also many other rings made by other masters and mages throughout the ages.
I think that just as the ring had a negative affect on whoever possessed it, that it could influence someone like Gandalf to pay less attention to it. The ring wants to be found and get back to it's master, but it doesn't want the wrong person to find it. Gandalf or Galadriel would have become rivals to Sauron's power if they were to take the ring, and that is not something the ring wants.
The ring likely draws from a person's deepest desire, usually for power. Bilbo however was a simple hobbit, humble and kind-hearted, so even for the One it would likely take an incredibly long time to corrupt such being. the One also tried to corrupt Frodo when he took it, but it was so hard for it to corrupt him that it was its edge of death that the One was finally able to corrupt him.
that's a really good point!!
@Jason except that Sauron was terrified by the thought of facing a ring bearing Gandalf, Saruman, or Galadriel. The Nazgûl specifically go after Gandalf after he escapes from orthanc to prevent him from getting the ring. It’s made clear that if a powerful being took the ring, they could overthrow Sauron, but would be so corrupted that they would take his place as tyrant.
I don't think it's that conscious. It has a will, not mind. And even though it's contrary to Sauron's purposes, it tempts everyone who encounters it, including Gandalf and Galadriel.
If Gandalf or Galadriel had gotten a hold of it, I think they would be corrupted immediately (especially if they didn't know what it was until it was too late). I think that you're right in saying that the ring would prefer to be inconspicuous so it can keep its Influence without any risk.
I mean the design of the one ring is so bland and boring, it's literally just a gold band. That could be any ring, which is why I think the design of the ring is brilliant
7:55 "Most men couldnt even finish their breakfast under the influence of the Ring before setting out to conquer the world"
- CP Gray
Your knowledge is off the scale...keep it going for us...we'll keep watching
You could learn this stuff too if you read some of the literature that is out there.
As Gandalf says himself (at least in the movie version of Fellowship of the Ring), "Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Frodo: “I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.”
Gandalf: “So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case you also were meant to have it; and that is an encouraging thought.” 😎
Little fun fact on the side: Sir Christopher Lee's voice is so special, maybe some people remember his voice-over of King Haggard in the animated movie 'The Last Unicorn'. The likeness of that character to Saruman is quite amazing. Having watched that movie as a child, it immediately brought back memories when I first watched LOTR. The way you emphasize what Tolkien wrote about Saruman's voice just goes to show that Christopher Lee was the greatest choice. What a legend!
Thanks for this great video. It's still crazy to me that they managed to do all that time compression in LOTR: FOTR. Gandalf travelled so much... 🙂😅
"The love of the halfling's leaf has definitely slowed your mind.". LMAO - Saruman with the clap at Gandalf in the movie.
Gandalf does mention the lesser rings in the movie, after Bilbo pulls his disappearing act from the party, he tells him something like "There are many magic rings in this world and none of them are to be used lightly"
It's an interesting turn of phrase. Gandalf knows exactly what men and hobbits consider to be "magic" but Elves keep on saying that they don't know what people mean by "magic". It's almost as if Gandalf and Elves don't talk about things.
@@DanBeech-ht7swmaybe because magic is more of a normal thing to elves?
Would love a theory video about what would happen in middle earth if Smeagol and Deagol never found the ring, and it stayed lost!
Then Sauron more slowly wears down Middle-Earth, and, while no one perhaps ever finds the ring, he doesn't get destroyed, and always remains a cancer on the world.
Frodo's vision, as shown to him in the Mirror of Galadriel, would come to pass (alternate timeline). Sauron has all his power and might as long as the ring exists. His armies outnumber by 10-1 the armies of the West. So, at the battle before the Towers of The Teeth (Battle of the Morannon) there is no ring to be destroyed at the last minute, saving the day. The West is defeated and Sauron goes on to dominate Middle Earth until the end of time. The ring could remain lost, or be found by servants of The Enemy - which would accelerate the process of Sauron's victory. The only way for the West to win was how events unfolded and that was a narrow path of wide uncertainty until the end.
Might be that Saruman would find the Ring. After all he was frantically searching around the location where Isildur drowned. So I guess it would be up to the Ring whether it chose to be found or not.
@@hebl47 And we know it was seeking Sauron, like a lost dog.
Even without the ring sauron had grown incredibly powerful, had frodo not destroyed the ring and aragorn not marched on the black gate, sooner or later sauron would have marched once again on minas tirith and conquered it, and eventually the rest of middle earth. He would win and spend centuries combing middle earth for it and eventually find it
Absolutely love the idea that humility and showing pity are rewarded, such as when choosing to give up the ring or not take a life in order to have it. This falls in line with Tolkien's ideas (which perhaps why he wrote it in the books) that greed, and being power hungry often lead to disastrous results, whereas when being humble and respectful, it can lead to greater things.
As a Psychologist (so I can't help what I'm about to say), I liken the ideas of humility and respect as a way of exerting less pressure on yourself. If you are constantly greedy and power hungry, the pressure on yourself to keep having the power gnaws at you, it ramps up the pressure you feel. When you don't seek it, you feel less pressure, and when you feel less pressure, you find yourself thinking clearer, with less anxiety, and possibly becoming happier more easily.
When that happens, you might find yourself living a longer life.
Much as I'd love to believe this theory to be true, I have an obvious counter-example: Donald J Trump, now 78, and only lately showing any sign of decline.
Great video! I appreciate the context, it underlines how Tolkien created not just an epic tale but a living world. Doubt, plausible alternatives, enemy manipulation and plain simple hope all combined to cloud the matter. Where some authors would skip over why, Tolkien did not hold back.
Honestly beyond all your amazing knowledge of Tolkein's work, i keep coming back for how good your voice overs are, truly amazing.
Great video! The only part that does not fit, as far as I read the text, is that Gandalf assumed it could be one of the lesser Rings. As he says to Frodo in The Shadow of the Past he knew it was a Great Ring from the start:
‘When did I first begin to guess?’ he mused, searching back
in memory. ‘Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the Dark Power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had ‘‘won’’ it, and I could not believe it.
That is a great point! Definitely an odd point if he means “from the first” as in when he first found out Bilbo had a ring. Then you really have to wonder if it’s a bit of contradicting tales happening.
@@NerdoftheRings It's not entirely clear, but because of the "then" in the next sentence it should have been before Bilbo told Gandalf his "strange story" about how he found the Ring - whenever that was, I don't know a date for it.
Though I think the story still works with Gandalf still having the other two issues in mind - little effect on Bilbo outside of the story, and Saruman's words.
And given that Gandalf wasn't an expert in Ring-lore and the smiths of Eregion were largely destroyed with the city, it's possible that Gandalf couldn't be 100% sure that there were only 20 Great Rings ever made.
This was a great one! Great job bringing together all the piece of the puzzle.
That's some amazing art running the background! Lots of talented artists! I like mostly the ones that look like just pencil, yet great detail; even in some, by absence of lines. They're all wonderful in their own right! Bravo to the Artists!
Edit: Glad you give credit to the artists and a link to them!
interesting to note that frodo couldn’t bring himself to even toss the ring into his little fireplace (foreshadowing?) i think the first time he actually uses it is in bombadil’s house, and he immediately feels silly since tom can see him anyway. it’s a much tougher ownership trial for frodo. from the moment gandalf tells him he’s been sitting on the One Ring for 17 years, he knows he’s in immediate danger, to himself and others. and everytime those nazgul are anywhere nearby, the ring wakes up and starts wearing him down. as faramir says about boromir, “it was too sore a trial.” bilbo, without knowing just what this thing is capable of, confides in gandalf that it would be a relief to not be worrying about it all the time, since he either keeps it with him or safely hidden in bag end, but he constantly has to check and see if it’s still there. so when gandalf finally convinces him to leave it behind he seems almost grateful for the extra nudge. but i think tolkien makes it clear that of all the peoples of middle earth, hobbits were the best possible guardians of the ring, because they’re not much interested in gold/riches/treasure/flashy stuff. they value a good mug of beer, a nice fire, a hearty meal (several times a day), a merry song, and friends. the simple, uncomplicated pleasures. a dying thorin says to bilbo what a nicer world it would be if everyone was like the shirefolk.
Bree was before meeting Tom B?
@@ZENmud No, just after. Aragorn wasn't with them when they met Bombadil.
I've been binging all of your content for months and now I've finally caught a new one the same day it's uploaded. I feel so spoiled with NotR goodness! Yay!
Great video! I feel like Gandalf answered this himself when he says that there are many magical rings in the world and none should be used lightly!" Tie that comment in with Galadriel's monolog from FOTR about "things that should not have been forgotten were lost," Then add to that the fact that we see several incidents where Gandalf's mind seemed to be slipping (the secret door into Moria, the path through Moria). My assumption has always been that after so many years and so many magical rings in the world, and a very old Gandalf the Grey (his power and mind was restored when he came back as Gandalf the White) that it is understandable that he didn't immediately jump to the idea of Bilbo's ring... found in a cave deep under the misty mountains would be THE RING... Even for a Maia.
You've made many good videos on Tolkien's Arda. And this is one of your absolute best, perhaps because you get at one of the master's great themes, the nobility of heartfelt pity. We see here how it saved Bilbo. And we'll see later how Bilbo's pity and Frodo's allowed that latter's quest to be completed even as he himself failed.
Tollkien's idea pity, which some might call mercy, is at the heart of not just his vision, but his genius. For Bilbo's pity really does save the world.
That scene in Fellowship where Bilbo tips the ring off of the palm of his hand is awesome!
You can see that it's something very difficult for him to do and yet he accomplishes it, and Gandalf doesn't chastise him for it.
This was the longest 15 minute video I've ever seen, but not in a bad way
Thanks for this video. It was well done and very interesting! The artwork you use in your videos is wonderful.
The scene where he researched it is my favorite in the whole series
hey mat, great job in this video, I feel like this might be one of your best works, if not the best! You explained in such a depth and clear manner one of the most complicated but also important questions regarding Tolkien's lore.
Writing from my partner's account. First video of yours I've seen, just wanted to say you've got a good story-telling voice. Seamless transition, not overacted and simply pleasant and fitting. Also very happy with your speeding, it was easy to follow along. Thank you!
Such a great topic. Thank you!
Amazing! I always love watching LOTR lore videos and Nerd of the Rings has been one of my favorite channels for a long time. This particular video just struck me in the right way though, the production value is superb; the list is endless: the music, soothing talking voice, great voice acting, stunning artworks that fit the words, and seeing the scroll of Isildur actually written in a scroll is all just amazing. Not to mention the topic itself here was very interesting. Yeah, I'm definitely a big fan of yours! Keep up the great work, you'll reach 1 million subs soon and then it's time for celebration! Much love from Finland!
🍻my sister-in-law's from Finland! She's been in Canada now for...about 25 years I think🤔
I really enjoyed this video! I love the work you put in to give amazing insights and knowledge. Thank you so much!
This is an excellent video from every point, IMO. It's not just explaining things because you made such good selections to read from the source material. There's inspiration with the education.
I feel like so many of the "plot holes" people claim they've found is due to either poor reading comprehension or focus on the movies. Tolkien didn't leave much to guesswork. But you have a much more charitable response! 🙂
I don't know why it so difficult for people to understand that not everything has to happen directly in plain view during narrative.
@@cthulhucollector Especially when Gandalf literally explains it all!
I honestly believe he began having suspicions when he finally learned about the ring in The Hobbit and realized that was having an affect on Bilbo’s personality. Bilbo being a fundamentally honest person wasn’t the sort to try and lie and hide the truth from his companions about finding a magic ring. If I remember right in the book even Gandalf had a certain look but kept quiet and became more watchful in respect to Bilbo
Reckon he suspected as soon as he popped out from behind the tree after giving Gollum the slip.
Beautifully done. Very clearly setting out the sequence of events and the reasons for all that took place.
this was amazing and appreciated. I love the ideas that you explore on this channel!
With every video I watch here or iver at In Deep Geek, i am absolutely blown away by Tolkien's writing and lore.
The depth of this lore is incredible and i love that it is the manner in which a person gets ownership of the ring that decides their fate.
Tolkiens books and PJs original three films are lightning in a bottle. I don't expect to see or read anything this perfect again for a very very long time
Thank you so much, I love your content!
This channel is the best to capture the essence of the whole Tolkienian universe and pit it into explanations. I Love this channel!
I just discovered this channel and I'm on my third video consecutively. I love how succinct you are in tying together the Silmrilion with LOTR and The Hobbit. The mythology can be head-spinning, but you tie it together beautifully. Thanks for what you do.
I don't think Gandalf KNEW it was the One Ring at any time when Bilbo still had it; it wasn't until Frodo had the Ring and Gandalf tested it in the fireplace that he truly knew that the One Ring had truly ended up in the Shire. I think Saruman's abilities to influence others played a huge role in damping Gandalf's suspicions.
Gandalf describes pipe-weed in a way that people typically talk about marijuana. He says, “…if you used this herb yourself. You might find that smoke blown out clears your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to errors without anger.” 💀
@@magnem1043 I don't think so - pot may be enjoyable and maybe even give a different perspective, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say it cleared their mind. And JRRT said many times that it was tobacco and nothing else - like potatoes, presumably it died out in Middle-earth before being re-introduced in the Colombian exchange.
Love the content keep it up 😁
What an amazing video! Love the combination of storytelling and the art work.
I'm glad you're back to covering Tolkien. I checked out with the Amazon videos. Thanks.
Another great video! thanks!
One thing I always find fascinating is the weight Tolkien puts on the way a character gains the master ring and how much it corrupts them, Bilbo got the ring while exorcising pity and was almost not corrupted, some will even say blessed and Isildur claimed the ring out of grief and as far as we know wasn't corrupted at all.
Isildur kept the ring knowing it was Sauron's weapon, and ignored Elrond's pleas to destroy it, and he was still wearing it when he was killed, so there is evidence he was at least slightly corrupted by it. Also that's why it was also called 'Isildur's Bane' and Aragorn feared his descent from Isildur - '... You are Isildur's heir not Isildur himself' ... '... the same blood flows in these veins'.
@@julianmhall Sure, I mean corrupted beyond the usual "Cant give the ring away" stuff that everybody seem to get when having the ring (And Hobbits seem to be the only ones who can kind'a resist that) - But isildur had the ring for 2 years and in that time he doesn't seem to make a single questionable decision, he strengthens Godor, replants the white tree, leave the throne the hands of his son, and set off to Riverdale to meet up his son and wife.
@@Anacronian the fact Isildur kept it despite Elrond's pleas does say to me 'can't (won't?) give it away'. Tom Bombadil and Faramir (book Faramir at least) both expressed disinterest in it, but that's different from possessing it and giving it away. Neither of them had it to start with.
@@julianmhall not when he was killed, the Ring had just abandoned him, exposing him to the orcs that killed him.
@@julianmhall Bombadill did possess it briefly, but it had no power over him (couldn't even make him invisible).
Your videos are awesome!!! The lore and history of Tolkiens world are so fascinating and the way you craft your videos makes it entertaining to watch. Thank you!!!
What an amazing video, I'm glad to have stumble upon this channel.
This is one of the reasons that The Stranger being Gandalf in Rings of Power is such an infuriating concept to me. If Gandalf is around in the Second Age, he surely would interact with the Rings of Power at some point in their history, presumably even participating in the War of the Last Alliance. In doing so, it makes his lack of firsthand knowledge of the One Ring in the Third Age seem all the more preposterous. I really hope the showrunners for RoP back off their hinting towards The Stranger being Gandalf, and re-write it so the "follow your nose" line is just a red herring.
Gandalf says that there are MANY magic rings in the world. He knows the ring is dangerous. He just doesn't know which one he is dealing with, because it's one of many.
But I think he is too wise to just take it from Bilbo and find out for himself.
That would almost certainly destroy Bilbo and also be dangerous for himself, as he would risk becoming the dark lord.
He had to let the situation play out, the way that he did.
Also because he thought Bilbo was MEANT to have it, for reasons he didn't understand yet.
Bilbo giving up the Ring is the single most heroic act in all of Arda's history.
The only one to ever willingly give it up. He wasn't aware of it's significance at the time, but that shouldn't detract too much from what his actions meant.
@@jmad318besides Tom Bombadil but ya know, he’s Tom Bombadil
@@antoniodiavolo true, he held it, but very briefly. I suppose Sam would have to be added to the list too. And boromir. And Gandalf.
@@jmad318 Thats a good point lol
Even if corrupted his blind adventurious optimism still stuck in old age of wisdom
Absolutely wonderful content. Thank you for these brilliant treats.
An excellent video and one of my favourites. I always enjoy the fact that they are so comprehensive.
I must say, that really got me thinking. What if Saruman had not turned to evil? Just imagine how differently things might have played out, not even in the War of the Ring but the actual finding of the One before Bilbo ever met Gollum.
I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this, and Matt's too!
In a way I think Saruman also succumbed to the powers of the One Ring.
Not by being exposed to it, but due to his study he got obsessed with it, and exhibits many of the same character changes that are reported for Smeagol and Isildur.
Gollum was hiding under that mountain for a long time. Not until watching these videos did I realize Sauron took over Dol Guldur before Deagol found the ring, not after. Gollum could have hidden the ring for much longer if the ring hadn't abandoned him in the tunnel the day before the dwarves were captured at the back door.
@@johndododoe1411 That was precisely the reason Saruman kept telling the White Council not to confront the Necromancer - he knew that with Sauron so close by the Ring would be more likely to be found as it tried to return to its master, but if Sauron were to be driven away, the Ring might well slumber for many more years. Saruman calculated that he would be the most likely to discover it if it was found since he knew more than even Sauron did about what happened to it after the Last Alliance. It was when he realized that Sauron knew the Ring was in the area and had people actively searching from it that he changed his mind about attacking Dol Guldur, because obviously if Sauron found the Ring Saruman would never get his hands on it.
It's not clear to me when or how Sauron learned that the Ring was near Dol Guldur. He may initially just have been drawn to the area without knowing why.
JRRT also hinted that Sauron's presence so nearby may have been what caused the Balrog under Khazad-dum to awaken, and that the Dwarves' mining may have just released from its prison a creature that was already awake and wanted to escape.
This somewhat changes my entire view of the Hobbit books. Thank you for so clearly delineating the working of the ring but more importantly the individuals involved with the ring. Critical point of the stories. Thank you.
Hey Matt, as always I love your videos. If you were ever thinking or considering doing an audio book for Tolkien's work, I would be the first to buy! I love your voice-overs of all the characters in your videos, and your ability to explain Tolkien's world while keeping the content fun and entertaining is always the best! Thank you Matt for another great one!
I personally think this may be one of the most important videos you've made. Even Tolkien did not know the significance when he wrote of Bilbo acquiring the ring, since The Hobbit was a book written for his children way before LOTR was conceived. It's a stroke of mastery that Gollum's background ended up so well for the LOTR story. Also the timeline surrounding the first two chapters of the Fellowship of the Ring is very important for understanding Gandalf's process of understanding what Bilbo actually found, something which most PJ film fans miss out on.
This is easy to understand for us readers, who can see everything as a whole. To understand why Gandalf failed to notice this, it is necessary to look at the situation from Gandalf's point of view. It is my inference that the One Ring, in conjunction with its bearer, may also influence those around it. In this context, he may have influenced him to avoid being noticed by Gandalf.
And Hobbits have a great gift for going about un-noticed...
It seems that the lighter and darker extremes have much more powerful effects on each other, which is why they keep their distance
This video is amazing. You truly are the Nerd of the Rings.
Great video again!
This was a topic i've been interested in, for a very long time. Right after I found your channel, I read the books myself and it's a wonderful world. And just an idea, but I would like to see a video about Thingol somewhere in the future
The video itself is amazing. I enjoyed it very much how you carefully explained the order and the possible explanation for Gandalf's Error. I always like it when you do direct readings from the book in a very realistic voice. The line; "He said and did then that filled me with a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deathly was at work.", it just gave me the chills. It is so sharp to the point and it expresses the shock of realization perfectly.
Gandalf could have ascertained the nature of Bilbo's ring much sooner if he had access to the lotr wiki page.
Lol, hate to burst your theory but the internet wasn't even a twinkle in anyone's eye when Tolkein wrote the books let alone any wiki pages.
@@loka7783 It was a twinkle in baby Al Gore's eye.
Excellent voice acting! Probably the best of all the channels, that I've heard.
I really enjoyed this post. :) Loved the pencil illustrations in particular. Thanks :)
Great video, well explained, would love to of heard you explanation of why Gandalf left Frodo when he knew he had the one, I know at that time Saruman was still trusted and Gandalf went seeking his advice, even so still think Gandalf could of made sure Frodo was safe with Aragorn or the elves before seeking Saruman
Here's the part that puzzles me - Galadriel knew when Frodo had put the ring on; she said he had only put it on three times since he knew what he possessed (Bombadil's house, Bree and Weathertop) when he asked at the Mirror. How could she tell that, but neither she, Elrond or Gandalf knew that the ring was active the many times Bilbo would have worn it casually or Gollum before that?
She had the perception. Think about this: When Frodo put the ring on and fought with Gollum just before the destruction of the ring... what she must have felt, and maybe tried to influence.
Your editing is excellent. Great video.
loved the video ! i appreciate all the time you put in them ! and i love the voice acting
This episode of Nerd of the Rings is better than an episode of RoP. Lmao
hAhA iT fUnNy CuZ dAt ShOw BaD hAhAhAhA
The last comment Bilbo makes about the ring as they’re heading to the harbour (in the movies at least) is when he asks Frodo if he can see his ring again, upon finding out Frodo “lost it” Bilbo says “Ohh pity”
Nice way to tie in pity playing such a large role in his ownership of the ring
Except the word actually means something entirely different in that context.
Or a good hook for Darth Bilbo in the unwritten sequels..
linguistic irony
This is one of my favorite parts of the Hobbit/LOTR story. Great video!
This was such a great video! I always wondered how much Gandalf really knew and why he believed Saruman so much. Tolkien's work never ceases to amaze me and I love your videos❤
Nice video, helped me understand Gandalf's judgment. What is the name of the music that plays in the background may I ask?
Just purchased Beren and Luthien book ! Is it good ?
Incredibly well done video, thank you very much
My family loves your videos! We watch them together since we all are fans of the books and this you. Thank you for giving something that we can share even as the kids grow up!
I really enjoy how you wrap things up at the end of the video. Great topic and interesting how you lay it all out. It's funny how Saruman tells Gandolf, basically, that he's an idiot for the ring being 'right under his nose' the whole time, when Saruman is the one who used his own powerful voice to convince Gandolf the ring had been washed down river and into the ocean. Saruman the know-it-all 🤣
*Gandalf
Another answer: In the beginning, even Tolkien didn't know Bilbo's ring is the One. I mean, Gollum originally gave it to Bilbo as a reward for winning their game.
I'm sorry, but... unless I'm wrong (and I don't THINK I am) or I'm misunderstanding your comment, Gollum absolutely did NOT give the RING to Bilbo. Bilbo accidentally found it BEFORE the riddle game, and Gollum subsequently spends the ENTIRE rest of the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings story trying to get it back. We all know that the ONLY being in Middle Earth that ever physically possessed the Ring (Sam doesn't count cuz he didn't have the Ring for longer than a day or two) and gave it up willingly was Bilbo.
@Rudy Gonzalez the thing is there are two versions of "The Hobbit"- The annotated Hobbit and the canon Hobbit most of us read today. The annotated Hobbit was written before LOTR and in it, after Bilbo wins the game, Gollum gifts him the ring and even shows him the way out of the cave. When Tolkien started writing LOTR, he decided to turn Bilbo's ring into the One. To do so, he changed "The Hobbit" to fit with LOTR and this "new" version is what is canon today.
@@valentinkambushev4968 I never knew there was a previous version. Side comment: my phone tried to autocorrect previous to precious.
@Derka Von Dangerkill it wasn't exactly previous. Tolkien never published the annotated Hobbit. It was published after his death, but it shows how things have been changing during the writing process of the Hobbit.
@@rudygonzalez8755 I agree with most of what you said but how dare you discount Samwise like that. Sure, he wasn’t a ringbearer for long, but he was master of the ring while it was extremely near to its master and damn near at full strength. And he still was able to give it up. That is a massive feat. Put some goddamn respect on the name.
Duuuuude what a great segment, really enriched the books and the movies for me, you rule!
Love your podcast!
There is no other podcast like yours
As for why Gandalf checked in to Bilbo with Balin some years after the Quest of Erebor: Gandalf always had some hobbit friends to visit when he took a short vacation from his travels, most notably Gerontius the Old Took, of whom Bilbo was a grandson. They were naturally best friends, and beside that Gandalf also probably thought that Bilbo was a safe keeper of that weird and potentially dangerous ring that must have originated in Eregion.
Also don't forget, Hobbits were Gandalf's specific field of study. It's just natural Gandalf would wander back from time to time to see if anything had changed.
I have a question. Did Gandalf know the Balrog was in the Mines beforehand? The movie seems to imply both he and Saruman did, but it is not clear from the book that he did know.
I think nobody knew. Even Galadriel didn't know. The wise were referring to the Balrog as "The nameless terror" for a reason.
LOTR secret diaries Gandalf/Saruman/Sauron for the answer
... 😳🥺😂😂😂
I think he knew there was SOMETHING, but not necessarily a Balrog.
This was excellent! Thank you for it.
Great video! I never thought about how the manner in which the one ring is taken having an effect on who possesses it!
Now I want to see you do a what if video where Bilbo decided to kill gollum instead of letting him live and how it would have altered history
In short, they would probably be stuck in Ithillien, neither Frodo or Sam knew about Emyn Muil, the Gray Marshes or the Cirith Ungol pass.
Without Gollum/Smeagol as a guide, it's very likely they would have either perished on the way or get discovered. Even if he ended up
betraying them, he got both of them past places that could easily be their undoing.
The ring would have been able to take over Bilbo very quickly.
Just amazing how Tolkien works a concept like pity from seemingly small actions by characters and turn that into the entire reason Sauron was able to be destroyed in the first place.
Love this video. Great job! Love the artwork too.
Awsome viedeo als always! Especially your narrative voices.