MaxPax's PHOENIX RANGE RUSH Comeback?! (StarCraft 2)
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Best-of-5 series of top level StarCraft 2 between Clem and MaxPax, a Terran versus Protoss, that is the finals of the ESL Open Cup 229 Europe.
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StarCraft 2 is a military science fiction real-time strategy video game developed and released by Blizzard Entertainment.
#StarCraft2 #SC2 #RTS
Kijkwijzer (Dutch viewer guide): 6, violence, fear
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the spoiler shield is overrated, batman killed thanos and that newspaper chef is spiderman
@21:55 I would LOVE to build a CC in your mineral line, friend protoss. What's that? Oh no, don't worry about the giant cannons we are building on top, its just for your protection ;)
And that yellow machine just mining machine that can't attack, so probes, you are safe.
17:25 Maxpax dancing with pickup/drop
o m g.... using the immortals ability to eat tank shots and then the colossus micro for dodging the 3 tanks left cuz there wasnt much bio...this is why hes my favorite
I have NEVER played StarCraft or anything similar, but even though I don't understand much, I honestly love your videos. Keep it up!
Ive only played the SC2 campaign never played the multiplayer but I’ve been watching videos from creators since the release to this day haha, just always found it interesting
As a casual SC2 enjoyer, I do think EMP is overpowered. Just watching EMPs absolutely strip basically half health off Protoss units (and all the health, in the case of archons) is really a bit too much. I think depleting shields and energy is fine, but maybe reducing either the amount it burns away, or increase the energy cost of EMP would probably be a good way to balance it? But again, I'm just a viewer man, I dunno.
I definitely agree with you there. As a protoss player, I find it very frustrating sometimes. I was thinking they need to at least limit the amount of shields it instantly burns. Instead of 100 percent of shields, maybe do 50-75% ?
I dunno though, since I am also a casual player.
Let's do a quick comparison between EMP and its closest Protoss parallel: psionic storm. The storm:
-Deals 80 damage over a little less than 3 seconds.
-Can be kited.
-Has a radius of 1.5
-Must be researched first
-Costs 75 energy
-Doesn't stack with itself
-Comes from a weak af unit with zero combat utility.
Now for EMP:
-Deals 100 shield damage instantly. No ifs, no buts
-Cannot be kited
-Has a radius of 1.75
-Doesn't require research
-Also costs 75 energy
-Does stack with itself in quick sucession
-Comes from a unit without any weak (light, armoured) tags, tanky and that can actually fight
-ALSO burns 100 energy from any and all units affected that have it
-ALSO uncloaks any and all invisible units affected for about the same amount of time as a scan
So, the only advantage storm has over EMP, is that it deals HP damage, but is objectively inferior in any other regard. It's basically storm + feedback rolled into one but better, since for example, Zerg can clump up overseers along with infestors or vipers, to force HT to hit those at random with feedback; this is a non-issue for EMP which just hits any and everything at once.
What I can't believe is that players still try to use Archons against terran....
@@daikatarokamegawa542 Need to borrow this copypasta for when terrans whine about storms.
They could balance it out by making EMP a single target attack with range equivalent to feedback
Always gets me seeing a viking or two try and land to escape a bunch of phoenixes, only to get yanked back up
"What about second cyclone?" "I don't think they know about second cyclone."
Every maxpax game I watch I become more convinced that maxpax is secretly serral
Honestly..... i wouldnt be shocked and then just get another protoss to play when they vs himself XD
if they had never played id be convinced but it seems a bit much to get a double
I agree. Including the games maxpax plays against himself. Oops, I mean the games maxpax plays against serral.
i literally only watch starcraft and from what ive seen in games that reach a point where ghosts come out to me it looks like ghosts are like the best thing you could have in those situations . against protoss EMP just seems like a free nuke that also has the bonus of getting rid of energy and against zerg it seems keep things that would be used to counter ghosts in check. plus snipe just seems to make them really good against any of the bigger zerg units.
from a spectator perspective ghosts just seem busted
One unit answer to basically everything it feels like.
I really think it would be a good idea if they brought in the spectre and had snipe and emp at least split between 2 units. No other unit in the game has 3 really strong spell abilities and on top of that has a pretty solid health pool and dps
@@notarealperson8956 thats what i dont like about them everyone is always talking about army comp and terran just goes gohst every round because they answer everything +stealth +nukes
@@Moriakuh how do you beat late game protons? Emp
How do you beat late game zerg? Snipe
How do you increment advantage in slow games? Energy abilities and nukes
Probably the most crutch unit after queens
EMP would feel more powerful if it had a more obvious animation, yeah.
Maybe something like an easily visible shockwave covering its radius, along with electric sparks exploding from all affected units.
Also a distinct sound. Sound design helps a lot with readability.
Clem has only lost 2 tournament late games against MaxPax this year (except when Clem had a really bad start and is forced to turtle hard). It's almost as if Terran has this very overpowered mid to late game unit that counters all Protoss units or something.
Not sure what you mean i dont see any abilities that look op or fancy
@@mikeserds2333imo. Emp is too op againts protoss. (Not that im a protoss player) but the foundation of advatage toss race has is their regenerative energy, and emp literally countered that hard. It would be nice if againts protoss EMP would only half the total amount of toss energy rather than be a nuclear psionic bane
EMP almost certainly needs a re-work. Not only shields, but the ability to effectively turn off opponent's casters is massive.
Yeah until you mentioned EMP a few casts back, I didn't know it was a thing as a casual viewer.
Turns out fast flying plane with guns: pretty good!
I expected more Fenixes because of the title
That hold by Maxy in 2nd game was legendary. That colossus pick up micro legit saved the game
lowko's new catch phrase, "you know em you love em"
Thanks for the video, Lowko. Welcome back God-Emperor! ❤
when i see maxpax i click
MaxPax is one of the only players i see make Phoenix's this scary.... its the way he does it, its never a full transition he just leaks one out at a time as he gets the money and next thing you know he has a ground colossus army and an air army
The problem with ghosts is the lack of a drawback. There is NONE.
Protoss HT are extremely weak combat units, slow moving, they have strong abilities and that's it.
Zerg infestors are the same deal, easy to pick off, slow, vulnerable, etc.
Protoss and zerg specialist casters also are EXPENSIVE. They require a large gas investment and take up a huge part of the army supply.
With terran on the other hand, the ghost rifle is actually really good. It does respectable DPS, amazing range, and you can even stutter-step-micro, and all that jazz. You can mass ghosts and win an a-click battle. It gets impacted by lategame weapon upgrades, not to mention the two abilities ghosts have. Protoss does not have a single unit to counter ghosts, yet ghosts counter ever single protoss unit. There is no way to skillfully dodge EMP, no way to outrange ghosts, and no way to prevent ghosts from casting. You could argue that feedback onto ghosts is a viable counter strategy, but it's not in the current state. The AOE of EMP outranges the maximum range of feedback & is a ground AOE compared to point and click ability, much easier to micro on a fight. Ghosts also have the ability to stealth, making it easy for them to avoid high templars in the first place while the high templars have 0 defensive abilities. Ghosts are small and difficult to select with feedback, high templars are bright glowing and very easy to hit with EMP. Maybe if feedback was AOE, or did splash damage, or summoned a micro storm by stealing X energy it would be good, but in its current state it's awful to use.
Not only is the ghost an effective combat unit, but it also nullifies all other specialist spellcaster units which should be able to counter it. Countering the units own counters, what kinda balance ideal is that? Removing the energy from all units without a cap or drawback it's just simply too strong.
I think EMP needs a total rework, for one there should be a firing animation to allow stalkers to blink out of it, similar to how a widow mine hit functions. Second, it should pulse DoT just like storm and fungal growth do. There is absolutely no reason for it to be a 100% frontloaded ability. Third, there should be a damage CAP to the total damage a single EMP can do. For example, 500 damage combined to shield and energy. On a clumped up ball, a single EMP can do 10,000 damage easily. That's just absurd and doesn't belong anywhere in SC2.....
Imagine if you had a phoenix ball on top of your HT, and the EMP "maxxed out" on draining the phoenixes. THATS counterplay. That gives the protoss the ability to outplay the terran, and on the flip side, if the terran calculates the damage properly they can mitigate it by prefiring multiple EMP's. EMP is currently "press one, click anywhere, massive benefit" with 0 thought from the terran player and very little skill required to excecute. Counterplay is nonexistant and outplaying is outright impossible. Your only hope is to win the game before it reaches ghosts, which is not a balance decision but more of a crutch. Make them actually strategize the use of the ability, and think about how much effective damage it will do before they fire it.
Being a constant viewer, I always wondered how using pheonixes to counter vikings would go. Glad to see Maxpax tried to do that in Game 3, he just needed more time to set it up properly.
Some EMP nerf ideas
1. Nerf the damage to shields and reduce further the range and radius.
2. Give it a cast time and make it interruptable like snipe.
3. Buff the high templar moves speed or feed back range or give sentries the ability to negate the emp with guardian shield. Example, guardian shield denies all emp damagea but the emp dispells the guardian shield buff right away.
On paper, it's dependant on the phoenix upgrade, before it they have less range than vikings and vikings can harass them, after it its phoenixes who have more range. In a straight up fight, they are more or less evenly matched, phoenixes have more health, vikings have more DPS. 1 phoenix VS 1 viking ends up in a draw. Problem is that phoenix will probably be behind in term of upgrades, as shields are never researched and as terran may already have researched vehicle armor for the ground units. Plus phoenixes are more exepensive than vikings.
Terran just has so many options, almost every different Terran comp counters the majority of Protoss builds. Protoss have to win by just playing better than their opponent and being dirty. Terran units are also just better baseline (without upgrades), cost less, and use less supply overall. All Protoss gets is the badass Immortal and a few janky gimmicks with long cooldowns. The balance is shite.
EMP, all the other spells you mentioned are damage over time. What if EMP was also damage over time and had visual effect. Then it's impact in fights would be more noticeable. And damage over time would make it more balanced.
That game 4 was beautiful !
great set
Disclaimer: this forthcoming rant is about professional level SC2, not casual Ladder games!
Terran has so many options, almost every different Terran comp counters the majority of Protoss builds. Protoss have to win by just playing better than their opponent and being dirty. Terran units are also just better baseline (without upgrades), cost less, and use less supply overall.
Protoss gets the badass Immortal and the useful Oracle, and a few janky gimmicks with long cooldowns, and that's it. Everything else has serious caveats, or is reliant on upgrades to be even usable. PvT balance is overall pretty shite.
At the very least, they should let Protoss be able to make Observers from Nexii once they have a Robo Bay, to free up their precious Robo Facility production time. Multiple Obs are pretty much always necessary and they are constantly getting sniped, especially since their size got increased, but your Gateway units can only do so much without any Robo units to back them up.
Also, why the actual f*** is Protoss the only race where the opponent gets to see what units your production buildings are making? Why did Blizz have to make Stargates show the enemy whether you're building a Phoenix, Carrier, Tempest, etc?
I believe clem is going to surpass maru as the undisputed #2 in the world/ best terran
But i believe whole heartedly maxpax is the next serral. One day he's going to be running world championships without dropping maps. His level of growth is insane
I havent watched SC2 in 3-4 months. Some things dont change that much. For example Clem vs MaxPax in the finals
aha!!!! Let's do this MaxPax and Clem!!!!
why is emp instant
I do not whine on EMP, i whine on ghosts in general. Unit that can emp my vipers/infestors, snipe me ultras, broodlords, and just kill my whole detection and laugh and shoot from invisibility is just not fair. For protoss too actually. 1 emp deleting like half hp of toss army sounds like bullshit
No one complains about EMP.... But lowko every time he thinks about it. That and the baneling nerf.
Max Pax, “the uncheesable”
About the nickname tier list... "Oliveira" means olive tree in portuguese and is also the third most common last name in Brazil.
Clem vs Maxpax - must see SC2 too matchup if there ever was one.
how can i get those red color theme terran ?
I would be highly amused if EMP got a big flashy animation to make it more noticeable..
Next patch notes: EMP: Now has a much flashier animation to make it more visually distinct. (All stats unchanged.)
Following patch: Ghost: EMP: Energy required to cast increased from 75 to 100. Radius reduced from 1.5 to 1.25. Now requires a research in the Ghost Academy, cost 150/150 and 85.7s (costs the same as current Ghost Personal Cloaking ability research).
Ghost: Personal Cloaking is now baked-in to the Ghost instead, as it is what the unit is supposed to have as its identity and it has always been weird that it requires an upgrade research to have the ability for which the Ghost is named.
Kind of meme'ing but also kind of not, it has always been very weird to me that Cloaking is not the innate ability of the Ghost since they are *literally named for it.* And as a T3 unit, all races have full access to detectors by the time they come out anyway so it is not like the timing would be an issue. Not any more than DTs already are, anyway.
The problem is that ghost counter those detectors. They can reveal obs and snipe overseers. And unlike terran, other races don't have access to undeniable detection/vision.
I agree, nerf Snipe while we are at it, and make Observers completely undetectable and unrevealable! .. Again, kinda meme'ing but not really, I do think the Ghost's Snipe is also a bit too powerful but chose not to put that in the previous comment. I was going to also suggest Snipe's energy cost to increase from 50 to 75, *or* damage nerf from 130(+40 vs Psionic) to 110(+40 vs Psionic). This breakpoint change would only really affect Queens (who would go from having 5hp remaining, to 25hp remaining, which might sometimes matter) and Ultralisks (who go from taking 4 Snipes to kill, to 5 Snipes to kill, without any other damage sources). All other noteworthy breakpoints are unchanged as most Psionic+Biological units are still at or below the 150hp threshold. Overseers still take 2 Snipes to kill.
Really though, you are just describing the current patch, so nothing would change in that regard. Giving Ghosts innate Cloaking instead of innate EMP would not be a buff or nerf to them in that situation. The detectors that are already out will still already be out, and will have the same interactions with the Ghosts as current patch. Thus, your comment about how Ghosts counter those detectors does not actually mean anything in regard to what I said.
Casual SC fan here, I complain here about EMP on every 5th video it seems like... lol
What if maxpax is, in fact, the AI they deployed a few years ago? Yeah he gave a few interviews but they could have picked any one to do those... Until we see him actually playing the game, there will aways be a chances that... He's... A robot... xD
Why no missile threads in the first game when you have an engineering bay Shuffle question Just wanted to know
Phoenix such a underated unit
Yeah its shit
The sad thing about this is that they say that the game is balanced but the balance they talk about is toss losing against 8 marines that cost 400 mineral sad like the subnormals that balance sc2 have destroyed the game weakening the maximum toss the typical terran will surely appear frustrated to say that the win rate is 50% what a disgusting nonsense no armi toss can against the mmm
Let's go!
Hello Lowko❤
Why do vikings counter every protoss air unit?
Phoenixes get zoned and killed.
Void rays are too slow and die.
Carriers are out ranged.
Tempests need oricles to get max range and they really don't do much damage to vikings.
Oricles are spell casters and should die to vikings.
Viking counter every air units in the game :p even themselves.
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Go Maximus Paximus !
Pax=Peace
Someone should tell MaxPax 🤜
"Any terran other than Clem I think MaxPax would easily come back..." Maru?
Well, he say top 5 after so yes Maru ^^, but because maxpax don't play offline tournament he don't match korean player that much compared to serral/clem/reynor
Emp also won't get as much complaints compared to the other damaging spells because only 1/3 of the races is affected by it...
Complaining about the energy effect isn't really relevant
Why they swap colors between games
Most smaller online cups don't really care as long as players are red and blue
phoenix seem not good vs terran and protoss, it only work well vs zerg
علي موحان💖💙💖💙💖💙💖💖💖💙💖💙💖💙💖💖💙💖💜💖💜💖💜💖💜💚💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💚💜💜
Vikings are too good AA...
The answer is no
Why do you call "shenaningan" to everything that is perfectly legal and common in the game?
I complain about emp all the time.....its soooo obvious.
Emp single handedly keeps protoss from being competitive at the highest level.
Based on the literal thousands of games ive seen,
i think the simplest balance change to emp would be to make it 30% of sheilds,
with a possible immunity for one or more large protoss units.
That would be a good start i think. 🤔
1 emp can take out one of prots’ tankiest unit easily archon
@itsmejohnyt3696 right. If three or four are clumped up, its even worse.
The other tanky unit is made way more useless because of emp as well.
Only way protoss can win is against weaker opponents or if they get lucky. Not a chance in a straight up equal supply fight.
😶🌫️
third
You would never guess who's playing, within the first second Clem has typed and Maxpax is in the title, yep would never of guessed as it was thrown in my face.
My problem with the EMP is as terran you just have to build ghost as a nessesity which hard locks a race that is supposed to have 1 or 2 archetypes at all times
i watched every game and never saw a range upgrade finished for phoxies
first
Comment
If only some caster somewhere could have told Terran players ravens are good or something 🤔
Why the fuck would you think Ravens in TvP are good when going Bio?
Max patch 😂
Spoiler Shield! Like this comment to ensure others aren’t spoiled by the top comment!
Stop
You sir are a gentleman
No.
I'm not opposed, in principle, to a spoiler shield.. it's the "Like this comment..." part that I cannot abide.
It feels as though you're just trying to get a comment with 100's of likes. It feels parasocial.
Your value is not determined by how many likes you get on social media.
And I get it... The likes are to make it a "top comment", but it just feels more like a desire for attention, rather than a desire to "save others from spoilers".
At the end of the day, if someone doesn't want spoilers, they should probably just exercise self control and refrain from looking into the comments until they've watched the video.
@@dajosh42069lol you’re mad at someone for getting numbers on a screen.
@@juansaldana7976😊😊😊😊😊😊 ppppp
Toss lost
Terran is disgusting !
Downvote - no Phoenix range rush. I'm not sure why casters trend to clickbait after a while but its annoying🙄
Then don't comment or click the thumbs 😂 you're still boosting engagement.
Also you only feel baited because he died before the upgrade finished.
@@SquintyGears Full 3 base saturation 9 minute Phoenix range is not a rush... are you 8 years old?
Also how is Lowko going to know his clickbait is getting dissatisfaction if no one comments?
It sounds like you don't really care about Lowko's channel which would be typical of a troll.
@@hivetech4903 no I'm just telling you how the underlying system actually works. But keep adding fuel that's fine. I'm happy with the actual content and personally I don't click based on the thumbnail or title, just what the matchup is.
So if lowko has to play this dirty game to get view so the channel survives, he has my blessing.
Creators try their best to read comments but seeing them all is basically impossible. So they judge success more based on view numbers, clic through rate, and retention. So you'd have a bigger impact clicking off rather than commenting or voting when you're unhappy with the content. That's just a fact.
@@SquintyGears Alternate facts. You seem to have forgotten that Lowko can see the dislikes, and creators pay VERY close attention to those when they are new to clickbaiting like Lowko is. When there's an anomaly - which there is likely to be if clickbait is not standard practice - they read the comments.
You don't have to work in an ad agency to get that... although I do.
Also don't think no one noticed how you've stopped trash talking about the range upgrade timing.
Obvious troll is obvious.
@@hivetech4903 what ever dude live your own life
Clem is IMBA.
omg haha stop trying to get EMP nerfed! It's hard to use, locked behind a high tier, and doesn't deal any permanent damage (unlike all of the other splash damage attacks that can wipe entire armies like storm, disruptors, and fungal).
Emp is better than all splash dmg in game
shield damage = damage, that and the fact that it eliminates energy for an instant cast is OP
It's a number of smaller factors. EMP is instant cast, robo bay units are very slow (the only Protoss units quick enough to evade an engagement they don't want to fight are the Zealot, Stalker, Phoenix, and maybe warp prism. Every other Protoss unit relies on some sort of zoning ability to avoid a fight), and Concussive shells essentially make it impossible to run if the Terran bio gets on top of the enemy.
So Terran can use one spell and two upgrades (stim/concussive) to drain half of an army's total HP, close the distance, potentially disable a vital zoning spellcaster (High Templar), and debuff the enemy movement speed.
Though in all fairness a lot of these concerns have seen changes. Immortal barrier now blocks the first EMP, and EMP radius has been reduced so it's a lot easier to miss Templar and a lot harder to blanket the whole Protoss army.
Lol, it's literally the best ability in the game. Deals the most damage, instantly, in the biggest area, make spellcasters completely useless and reveals cloaked units on top of that.
EMP is already extremely strong against zerg and they don't even take damage from it FFS.