Breakdown Analysis of Permadeath in RP Servers
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- čas přidán 29. 01. 2021
- Overview of Permadeath in RP servers. True permadeath in roleplay servers is practically non-existent, other than in the Armageddon MUD.
'ode to permadeath'
Credits:
-MUD Gameplay recording by Spfnym
-Footages from NWN:EE remake of Haze build
Peter Ridgeway & manipulated by myself
-Footages from Conan Exiles by Funcom,
'Super Pazzo', Artania Stories
#permadeath #Truepermadeath #NWNHaze #NWN #MUD #ArmageddonMUD #RPservers #MUD #NeverwinterNights #FairytaleRP - Hry
![True story: Permadeath hardcore RP server [NWN1 PW Haze]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/iTEMfsAvqOc/mqdefault.jpg)
![True story: Permadeath hardcore RP server [NWN1 PW Haze]](/img/tr.png)
This is a really cool video. I think there are other "true" Permadeath games out there but they're all MUDs (text-based, no graphics). Only one or two have been around as long as Armageddon (or almost as long), such as Harshlands. Different theme though. Armageddon took a lot of inspiration from Frank Herbert's Dune series and the Dark Sun campaigns of D&D. I started in a text environment where their idea of "roleplay enforced" was no talking about the baseball game. I've been playing Armageddon since 2002. I'm hoping it'll become a new "novelty" for the younger set but I'm not planning on going graphic any time soon. Myst was the last one I ever played and while I loved it, I already won it so, y'know, game over there.
I couldn't find detailed information about Harshlands death settings. If it's any popular and has true permadeath certainly worth a shout-out
I've spent the last 28 years trying to make a game that captures what was so great about text MUDs while adding the convenience of a graphical interface. I used to code for Harshlands. Going alpha in a week or two. Maybe you can tell me if I've succeeded.
Awesome video. Thanks for including Armageddon in your ode.
This was a really great video, very educational and well presented!
I hope that you someday find the perfect permadeath game that you're looking for :-)
Love this. Really good analysis!
Loved the breakdown, thank you for the mention of ArmageddonMUD!
This was a really good video, thank you. Both in content and production.
I coded for Harshlands in the 90s. My first solo project was a spinoff of that game before I started from scratch and added the graphical element without losing what's so great about the text element. I played Armageddon back then too. My favorite character was "the fair-haired swordsman", who lived in the desert as a Blackmoon Raider, with a dwarf, and was basically unkillable by the gith until the admins got mad at my exploratory nature and literally removed the weapons from my hands while sending several mantis warriors after me. They were kinda like that back then.
I'm a fan of permanent death, but I've taken a middle road. There's a roleplay reason why the players don't die... it's actually central to plotline/world. But it does take you a long time to regain your strength (realistic time / 4x time ratio = about 10 real days) and you have to stay close to a fairy pool... so basically you're on house arrest for a while, but can still roleplay, craft, order your house members, etc. You're out of the fight, you lose all your gear, possibly your baggage train and hirelings... it's not permanent death, but it gives weight to your death. Adds that real fear factor I ONLY experienced in games like Armageddon. I don't like to enforce RP with punitive measures, I like to do what I can to enforce and encourage it in code. Having an RP reason for the lack of death allows me to develop the culture within the world to deal with the issue so you don't lose your immersion when death occurs and you're presented with an unexplained "game mechanic" that makes the whole experience little more than a teleport back home. I feel the key is to make death hurt *without losing your storyline*. I also have no skill caps, so there isn't an issue with immortal characters maxing out.
Has anyone here watched Criticla Role? In Compaign 2, one of the characters permanently died. There were TEARS. The player created a new character and rejoined the campaign. Became a totally different character. It was a very healthy change as the player loved the story more then his character.
Yes, I also remember shitton of their low-tier fans which invade the hobby with their toxicity basically jerk themselves and threaten poor GM to return it.
Love the video! Thank you for highlighting what makes roleplaying so addictive: stakes.
Amazing video! Thanks for your valuable insights and for the effort of putting this together.
Liked what you said about repetition being a possible downside to permadeath.
Some of the most fun I had in Everquest was when I abandoned my main, rolled a different race, and tried to survive in a new area. This was challenging, frustrating because I'd get lost in the starting city, and lonely at first because my friends weren't there.
It was also a chance to explore a whole different play-through that was just as engaging in its own way.
If permadeath meant something more like this -- where I would say goodbye to an old character, and be on a fresh path through a new character -- I would definitely be interested in checking that out.
Great breakdown of permadeath. Well done.
I find NWN true permadeath too hardcore, even though I want my RP slower and more considered than 99% of people. There are so many variables outside of your control (and not just lag and monsters overtaking you at area transitions) and an absence of gaming talent or a lack of ability in identifying the level of risk in an encounter could lead to months of emotional investment in a character being destroyed in a few seconds.
I always wanted a 'run away' command, with limited use, where you could get a heavy penalty if you encountered a situation outside of your control, but would live to breathe another day. Give people 5 uses of it before it expires. Something like that.
Loved the video. I find immortality in video games utterly boring. Good news on DDO is that Season 4 only had one life and tougher mobs. Roll on Season 5.
Bravo.
But personally having Permadeath is not the end all be all. The Death of Boromir, The Red Wedding, etc weren't as important to the Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones as the Comradeship of the Fellowship or the Comraderie of the Starks. Those type of connections are more important to me than the threat of someone dying. Its what first drew you to role-playing and what draws everyone to RPG games.
In Dragon Age Origins (Which I consider to be the Greatest RPG Game of All time) it wasn't about the possiblity of my character being able to die or one of my companions but the relationships I developed with them. Just like in Fallout New Vegas, Mass Effect, ALL of the Great RPG's. Its about the relationships you have with people (In those cases NPC's in Online RP Servers, the players)
Yes, of course, I'm not making the argument it's more important than any other element, it's a separate issue. A story still has to be good, and having interesting relationships/comradeship form makes RPG's/stories very engaging.
What about Permadeath-with-Afterlife?
I'm envisioning a game when a character dies they are transported to the afterlife, perhaps after passing through some challenges to prove that they are worthy, and continue to exist there. A sacrifice made at the character's grave might allow the living and the dead to communicate; the dead manifesting as a ghost for a short time. Sacrifices would also be needed to sustain the dead; the things of the spirit world are insufficient. If the dead need a bow and a quiver of arrows these must be sacrificed by the living. Shelter? Food? These too require sacrifice. If something dies in the spirit world it is gone for good, either merging into the spirit world itself or being reincarnated without any knowledge of their past lives.
Perhaps there's a way to resurrect a character, but only at great personal risk for everyone involved. A ritual that doesn't just restore the dead to life but opens a way for their spirit to return to reclaim their body, restored to life. But first they must escape the spirit world. All the while those performing the ritual are themselves dying. If the someone dies then the ritual fails and must be retried. Assuming that it wasn't the spirit who expired.
Creative idea for sure but "very difficult and dangerous to achieve resurrection" isn't permadeath.
0:50 ALFA - A Land Far Away has always had Permadeath. (Maybe you have a different concept but that is stated explicitly on their website rules)
Also in games like State of Decay 1 , when a character dies, they're dead. (A GREAT Game by the way but its not Fantasy)
Resurrections are available in ALFA, I get that given their rarity it would be considered 'nearly impossible'. I didn't mention it here because it doesn't qualify for true permadeath; but okay, they're a getting a shout-out with your comment, good enough
Is the real world death itself really permanent? Some would say "no, the soul comes back", for them calling in the debt from the past life debitor would be in line with the role.
People fear death, don't speak of it casually, may be another reason why games around it aren't that popular.
Have you tried Idena? Not so much of a game, but it has permadeath.
Do u have a twitch or discord?
I don't have a server on discord but I do hang there mostly to keep track of true permadeath gameworlds being developed
How do you treat D&D raise from death spells? It is a game mechanic in in a very prominent game. I know my answer. Since it is a valid game mechanic there is nothing wrong in it, and it does not make you immortal, you must be raised, and you can die in a way that rising is impossible. Anyway, curious to hear your thoughts.
In my opinion, it's about the story that the players create. If there's a raise from death spell, it shouldn't be trivial to cast - it should be hard and acquiring the materials should be next to impossible. The adventure is not the prize you get at the end, but the journey all along, as cliché as that is.
If it becomes easy to raise the death, then in your game world, the rich characters would never die, as they have the material goods and resources to constantly have someone cast raise dead on them. (This is a worldbuilding experience you could copy from stuff like Altered Carbon)
Raising the dead becomes a problem in trying to have any sort of /change/ that you want to make in the world. You kill the big bad dragon? Someone casts raise dead on the dragon for the /next/ adventurers to come along and kill.
From what I can tell, it requires work in fleshing out your world to justify everybody being able to magically come back from the dead and it often is cheaply used to reset the predefined characters.
@@robotmansa Well, interesting thoughts, but talking about permadeath in RP games is not very trivial subject since one very notable game have raise death mechanics. For example I could not take any D&D setting seriously if there were no raise death mechanics, it would simply not be D&D setting anymore.
2nd edition AD&D rules:
"This spell restores life to a dead creature (such as a dwarf, half-elf, halfling, or human...or other creatures, at the DM's option) who has not been dead for more than one day per caster level, as long as there is a relatively intact body to hold the creature. The caster points at the body and utters the words of power, and the soul is returned to it. To survive the ordeal, the raised character must make a successful resurrection survival check, and if they survive, they lose 1 point of Constitution. They are raised at 1 hit point, and must regain the rest through healing. The person so raised is weak and helpless, requiring bed rest for one day for each day they spent dead. "
What I am saying there can be both raise dead and perma death. It sounds paradoxical, but it really is not at all paradoxical.
I'm familiar with that talking point; yes technically it doesn't make you immortal but it's also not true permadeath. If respawn is a 100% return to life and ressurection is X% return to life then it falls into the category of possibility of permadeath to all its variations. As prominent as D&D is I don't think it has unique ownership on the term permadeath, but just another example of how the term has been soiled and there's no clear definition... hopefully that 'true permadeath' term will stick. I'm very zealous and hardcore though when it comes to true permadeath, dead is dead. I'm actually not a big fan of 'possibility of permadeath', just doesn't go far enough for me.
@@Larpushka Ok, I see, you do not let game mechanics override death.
@@moilami1 Exactly, I used so many words and you said it beautifully in one line :)
6:57 it depends how much weight everyone give to actual roleplay. Good roleplayers would't do meta
Well why don't you just call it PossiPermaDeath
lol
Your videos always make me laugh... even with such a serious subject as P E R M A N E N T Death!!
So what you are suggesting is that for
T-PD (true permadeath), is we apparently then need
ECT (Electroconvulsive therapy) to properly reincarnate.
Your graphics choices are sometimes hilarious... like for the concept of 'bleak' with the tumbleweed....haha...
Yep it starting to look like you wanna enroll peeps to grasp what they are missing out on.
The reincarnation knowledge thing is an interesting problem. But the bigger the world, the less important.
Someone from Armageddon called that issue 'the permadeath continuum', I like that term! And indeed the bigger the world the lesser the problem.
'Yep it starting to look like you wanna enroll peeps to grasp what they are missing out on.
'
Yes, when there's demand there's supply, if enough people want it it will happen.
I find NWN true permadeath too hardcore, even though I want my RP slower and more considered than 99% of people. There are so many variables outside of your control (and not just lag and monsters overtaking you at area transitions) and an absence of gaming talent or a lack of ability in identifying the level of risk in an encounter could lead to months of emotional investment in a character being destroyed in a few seconds.
I always wanted a 'run away' command, with limited use, where you could get a heavy penalty if you encountered a situation outside of your control, but would live to breathe another day. Give people 3 uses of it before it expires and true permadeath awaits. Something like that.