Tony Franklin • Illustrates Why Unlined Is Better Than Lined Fretless!
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- I hope to spark some conversation on this subject! From my own experience the lined fretless has drawbacks compared to the unlined fretless. I demonstrate this with one powerful point.
- Hudba
there's nothing more hauntingly beautiful than the sounds of a fretless bass. subscribed
Thank you! I humbly agree. Fretless is magic. It can say so much with very few notes. Welcome aboard!
Aside from tempered tunings, we have 'concert tunings' among others, which harmonically align the notes correctly for a particular key. What a fretless allows you to do is 'hermode tuning', which is adaptive to the last note played, allowing one to realign constantly. Whether you use a line or not, one should adapt. On a fretted instrument, especially when playing double stops, I have a tendency to pull the root a little sharp for a major, a pull the 3rd a little sharp for a minor. I'll pull the root a hair sharp for a dominant, a major 6th, but pull the minor 6th a bit tighter. These slight movements bring the notes into alignment, and help reduce beat tones which can be, in fact, rather punishing and off-putting at higher volumes. I don't want to punish the listener, when the've been kind enough to listen to what I have to express.
Great comment. I totally agree.
@@FretlessMonster I really enjoyed your commentary on the orchestra playing just roots and fifths, with just a single instrument playing a third, and suddenly, it's a chord. Spot on!
Yes - even on fretted I'm regularly slightly bending or pushing toward the bridge (flatten) when called for. Practice your ears folks!
pitching by ear is always the best
@@neilmacmusic Yes and no. Sometimes, the gig requires sight-reading a complex part without having learned it by ear. Of course the part needs to sound good, but if you've never played or heard the tune before, you can't really know what that is. You can hear good harmonic alignments and in the end it is all about how it all sounds together.
As a guitar player I never understood why I always feel out of tune even after tuning, mostly with G notes. I always felt the need to readjust, but then other notes were out of tune. Nobody could answer that to me, not even my teachers. Thank you Tony, you made it clear to me within minutes! 🙏🏻
That’s great to hear.
Yes I find the G and the B are troublesome on a regular guitar. Apparently EVH flattened his B string slightly specifically for this reason.
Cheers!
Well, they're really poor teachers, then. There certainly is no fault on your part here. I learned about these things in school when well-tempered tuning was topic, and any mediocre music teacher would know that "g#" isn't exactly the same as "ab", it always depends on the key you're playing in etc.. And logically, well-tempered tuning MUST be slightly off the natural overtone structure - otherwise, how would there even have been a NEED for such thing in the first place?!?! It's really shocking, or shall I say saddening, to hear that there are music "teachers" around who have no real insight in the topic they teach.
The guitar is a bit of a tricky one when it comes to tuning. I've had the same experience as you, which led me to look more into this concept. On paper, the frets correspond to Equal Temperament (like on most pianos) - that is, equal distance between each semitone.
This is a compromise, but it's a pretty good compromise. It allows you to play notes of any key and switch between keys without suddenly sounding outrageously out of tune.
Because if you were to use just intonation (a tuning system where the intervals are tuned to sound "pure" relative to the root note - much like the thirds that Mr. Franklin is talking about in this video), your instrument would sound incredible if you played notes relative to your chosen root note. But if you then played in a different key, it would be an utter mess. Pure-sounding intervals are relative to each note, and your intervals don't line up very well at all if you want to change keys.
So in order to allow instruments such as the guitar and piano - where you have fixed notes - to play in all sorts of different keys with all sorts of different chords, Equal Temperament is used. It sounds good ENOUGH and is very convenient. Plus, everyone's used to the sound of it.
Guitar in particular is a doozy, because your notes aren't as fixed as things might seem. How hard you fret a string can change the pitch, because you change the string tension by 'pulling' it down into the groove of the fret. Or maybe you're very slightly bending the string up or down when fretting certain notes, because you're not pushing it perfectly straight down.
Plus there's the whole guitar setup: neck angle/curvature, string height at the nut and bridge, string length/intonation, fret height - lots of geometry going on. Even you get everything set up as perfect as you can hope to get it, you're probably compromising SOMETHING somewhere. And after all that, temperature and moisture can throw things off again by subtly warping the wood.
... That got a bit rambly, I guess. What I wanted to say is that guitars are finnicky instruments and I swear they're impossible to tune. I tune it so some chords and voicings sound good, and then another chord sounds like shit. It's compromises all the way down.
If you're really good with both your ear and your fingers, you can adapt your technique to compensate somewhat, which good guitar players will do. I am not that good at guitar.
Could also just be the intonation is off?
@@Zeropathetic the problem is normal frets aren’t even accurate to equal temperament
The first proper bass I bought, when I had no idea what I was doing, happened to be an unlined fretless Jazz bass - I got it cheap when I was about 12 years old. I'm sure the nature of the unlined fretless, as a novice learner, made me learn to use more feeling and to use my ear. It probably had a profound influence on my playing even now, 20 years later.
I love that! I’m glad you stuck with it.
I’ve always said that Fretless bass makes us better musicians. And unlined enhances it all the more - in my opinion 🤩👍🏻
This is amazing. When you play in an orchestra nobody even USES a tuner. The conductor has everyone play a note or a cord and everyone just uses their ear and adjusts. You are not thinking "am i playing this B flat perfectly in tune with a tuner?" No! you are playing what sounds good in the room, what sounds pleasant to your ear.
Very well said. And absolutely true.
Well, that way of thinking explains why violins always destroy pieces by playing out of tune
then why can you literally see and hear them tuning before a performance
🎯
@@urghey990 they’re tuning their A strings to a concert A, and then tuning the other three strings relative to that pitch. However, there isn’t much difference here because each instrument sans the bass (they often use a tuner anyway) is tuning in fifths, which are practically identical between true intonation and 12 tone equal temperament
Well explained. My first fretless bass was a Warwick without lines. No other fretless bass (with the lines) has ever felt right to me. I always play just a tiny bit behind the dot, while using my ear to increase accuracy. It really is a world of difference.
Bingo! That’s the way! 👍🏻😊
Classical players use a drone to play against to develop muscle memory. Very important because in an orchestra you’re most likely playing with a few other upright players. Intonation is so very important. Imagine what it would sound like if every player was using lines as their reference point
Very good points!!!
Orchestral players don’t use a tuner either. They tune to themselves - usually starting with the oboe. I’m sure you know that.
I have an instructional course that uses drones and backing tracks for the same reason. It’s the only way to know if we’re truly in tune.
It would sound nothing that special or different to day? Like an orchestra with piano and fretted guitars and such?
@@FretlessMonster I would assume many jazz players are the same way. Lynn Seaton, Ron Carter, and Christian McBride come to mind.
Exactly, and also tuners aren't much good if you doing a Gig with a piano that might be a bit out ,
What an incredible human being. Your joy for music is contagious
You’re too kind. Thank you so much! 🙏🏻🤩
I’ve always preferred unmarked. It’s made me rely on my ear rather than my eyes.
Bingo!!
Exactly why I jumped in with an unlined fretless.
@@toddstropicals makes a huge difference. And is soooooo much fun to play. The simplest lines just jump and sing.
So true. Some youngs kids when learning upright bass will put tape on their fretboards. Eventually they take the tape off. It really is great to learn by ear.
A problem arises when you simply can't hear yourself on stage, which has happened to me quite often and I'm afraid it will continue to happen. You simply get to play in suboptimal circumstances sometimes.
Been playing fretless exclusively for about a year, (playing bass for over 40 though), no lines here. I love the freedom and one of the first things I noticed was needing to go a little flat at times... sometimes just to be in tune with the guitar. I would have never realized the limitations of frets were it not for me being inspired, (mostly by you, by the way), to pick up the fretless. Thank you for the great videos and the wonderful music you have recorded throughout the years.
Wow. That’s amazing to hear. Thank you. 🙏🏻🤩
So great that you’ve noticed that. It shows that you’re listening and your ear is attuned to those subtle differences. Essential for playing the Fretless bass! 👏🏻👏🏻 Have fun!!
Very good lesson and advice. 3 months in on my unlined fretless I’m finding the best daily exercise is running scales in every position I can find. The side dots are like you say,, a guide. But I’m using my ears more than my sight. Thanks Tony,, you’re a great influence on me
That’s great! You’re right on track!
Yes we listen with our ears, not our eyes! 🤩👍🏻
I'm not doing a ton of scales, but I am doing a lot of melody. I'm not experienced enough to make bold claims, but I like to think it might be better than scales for ear/intonation work. I was in church 3 times a week since I was a week old - so I do a lot of my melody playing on that. Deepest grooves in the brain + there's some funky non-diatonic harmony stuff going on that's really fun on fretless.
Excellent 👍
Great video, Tony. I'm psyching myself up to get back to practicing bass and seeing videos like this certainly help! Hope you're having a great day!
Thanks Steven. Have fun with it. And thanks for watching!
EXTREMELY important lesson for that 3rd being played in unison with the root.
Vital bit of knowledge thank you sir!
Great. Thank you
What a great way to teach music! That synth sound - so satisfying with bass - for the first time learning the technical stuff is pleasing in a personal way.
I truly appreciate that. Learning should be fun!
It’s my understand that before our current temperament system, different keys had different characteristics, some thirds were more stable than others, some keys had a bit more dissonance, etc, composers were well aware of these different colors in the different keys and chose the key for their compositions accordingly. one would have no choice but to play fret less instruments to hope to keep up with whatever the pianist was doing. Frets would have held players back in that time, depending on the ensemble. We do see some frets on the lutes and such, but they could be moved to suit a particular key’s intonation. There are some electric pianos that let one experiment with different temperaments. Really fascinating and yes, jarring, to listen to some of them.
You’re absolutely right. Different keys have different intervals and inherent dissonance - which can be used as part of the composition to great effect. But I agree it can be jarring if not used properly. And there is a difference between C# major and Db major!
Great comments there!! 👍🏻🙏🏻👏🏻
Before our current temperament system, intervals were based on equally distanced frequencies. There was an interval called the wolf fifth. It was illegal to play because the resulting dissonant harmonic pulse was considered demonic. Imagine that! Illegal to play an interval. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be tasked with explaining to a king that intervals are the emotional language of music. Just send me to the dungeon please.
When we hear an interval, we are hearing two notes that are related to each other by a ratio. When the 12 tone equal tempermant scale was adopted, all of the intervals were slightly detuned, except for the octave. The major third was slightly sharpened, playing it slightly flat as Tony did will give you a more "pure" sound because the ratio of the two frequencies has not been altered 👍👍👍
@@stevem.1853 when I took theory in college I always wonder why major thirds sounded so so wonky to me. It wasn’t until much later I understood this.
@@ShadamAran do they teach the history of tempermant in theory, maybe several semesters in?
This bloke is one of the true greats of the fretless bass!
Ah cheers! Thanks so much!
Tony, you now made me know why!! I finally own a completely handmade unlined fretless bass and I was doing what you've said, not being aware of the reason why. Thank you for "opening my eyes".... or for closing them and opening my ears even more. I'm a huge fan of you since Firm. You are a LEGEND!!!! Peace and Love. Trive
Wow. Thank you for that. Much appreciated.
Great that you were instinctively doing that with the tuning! You’re right on!!
Right, EXACTLY! A true masterclass by one of the masters.
So powerful sounding, almost amazing with that synthesizer.
Thanks so much.
Love it!
I heard it as soon as you played it! Wonderful!
wonderful lesson! I think it's easy for a lot of us to rely on visual aids in music. We see this all the time with younger/less-experienced engineers and producers in a DAW. Ultimately, music is an aural art form, so your ears should trump your eyes! Love your energy, Tony!
Thank you. And well stated! Perfect 🤩
Thank you Mr Franklin for your wisdom and experience. Experience can’t be replaced by any known craft. It is unique.
I don’t have a community of musicians nearby to illuminate my path. I live in a swamp in Alabama. I have a unique style where I end up bending my notes regularly to make it sound “rite” to me. I feel its the bending and pulling that creates the unique voice for each of us. We will all find our way!
I feel this discussion will make finding our way more free and easy.
Blessings be yours….Tom
That’s great Tom. Thanks so much. Sounds like you’re on the right track.
Keep it all going. 👏🏻👍🏻
Awesome 😎 Thank you for confirmation of what I’ve been hearing all along. Love you and your channel, Brother!
Thank you so much!!!! 🤩🙏🏻
What a great demonstration. Thank you.
I've played 16 years of fretted bass, now I'm at my 6th month of fretless and I love the inlays. The visual aid really helps me a lot, it permits me to be on the right note, specially with a 6 string!
But if your bass is not in tuned with the open string, it's a Luthier problem, gotta check the action and truss rod. Compensating with intonation is talent, but I also want a bass that is perfectly Intuned even at the 17th fret inlay!!!💪
Hmm that’s where the challenge is. The nature of the musical scale isn’t perfectly subdivided. So the frets / fret lines are not 100% reliable. Even when the intonation is set up perfectly. We ultimately have to rely on our ears.
The scenario about the single instrument in the orchestra was a really subtle but interesting way to think about a chord. Looking forward to more of these really fundamental topics.
Thank you.
The great thing about music is you are always discovering new things...Tony Franklin! Fascinating video..thanks.
Great. Thank you.
Gotta love this guy. Your energy and humor is on another level.
🤩👏🏻😂 Thanks so much. I like to have fun.
You are so brilliant. I feel like you changed the bass guitar forever and for good! I’ve only seen you play once live but it was enough to send me over the moon. I’m so happy you have this CZcams channel. Do you ever play out live? I’d dearly love to hear you in person again. Thank you for sharing your magical gifts with the world!
Thank you for your incredible words. They mean a lot. I play regularly with Lou Gramm though mostly on fretted.
@@FretlessMonster oh wow! I’m from Rochester, NY! The same place Lou Gramm is from! Small world!
Always love your authenticity, delivery and humor in your wonderful personality.
Thank you
Thank you Trystan. It means the world
As a kid who played violin, before I even knew I wanted to play bass, I totally appreciate the facts you are dropping here Mr Franklin 👍🏿
Thank you. It makes total sense right? 🤷♂️🤩👍🏻
@@FretlessMonster nothing but sense 👍🏿
Wonderful demonstration, Tony. Thank you!
Thanks so much
This is an excellent video insofar as it's educational and provocative. Thanks Tony!
As a pianist that is in love with historical tunings and is familiar with the limitations of 12TET, I never realized this was a matter of interest for those who use fretless guitars or basses. My thought is this. In a piano, every key is going to be tuned in synchronicity with the other keys, and in a string section of an orchestra, every violinist and cellist can do the proper adjustment to play in the same intonation. But in a band where there's likely going to be two guitarists and maybe even a third guitarist or keyboard player, won't the bass then be fighting against the current? As a pianist I would worry if my right side of the keyboard was all in 12TET and the lest one in just intonation.
Very valid point. But not every guitarist relies solely on a tuner. Some of the people I’ve worked with - Jimmy Page and Roy Harper- were kings of alternative tunings. EVH is known for making his B string a little flatter. I think this probably happens more than we know. So for me I like to have the flexibility of the Fretless so I can adjust on the fly if needed. Best of all worlds. 👏🏻🤩
@@FretlessMonster John Frusciante also tunes his B slightly flat
@@jrlk0098 From my understanding, pianos are tuned so that the ET is altered between the top and bottom keys. It uses the same technique as Tony uses here. It is due to the way the human ear perceives harmonics when notes that are a long way from each other resonate together. Maybe I am remembering wrong (haven't gone on google to "check" either) and I am ready to be shot down in flames. I will go all in tho.
@@FretlessMonster My first instrument was a spanish -or classical-guitar. It has a B string (the second one) that 4 string basses have not (I explain this to young bassists who never played a guitar) That string was always a trouble for me until I learned that the difference in fourths (E-A-D-G, corresponding to 6th, 5th, 4th 3rd string) between equal and just intonation is minimal, but the major third en equal is almost 14 cents sharper than in just! A person with a very bad ear can still hear a 14 cents difference. May be van Halen flatted that B string because of this.
Tony, you opened such an important point I can not thank you enough! While there are in CZcams so much bassists competing for who hits the bass the hardest, you came with a musical issue, talking about beauty and spiritual things. The best for you!
Great explanation Tony! I've found over the years that I can tune my guitar with a tuner but still have to make minor adjustments immediately afterwards, and according to your explanation the frets themselves actually prohibit you from sounding "right" as you demonstrated. I could definitely hear the difference when you adjusted your finger placement, it does indeed sound better.
Great! Thank you Stacey.
Yes fretted instruments will always be “imperfect” but it hasn’t stopped great music being made on them thankfully! 🤣👍🏻🤷♂️
@@FretlessMonster Just a quick note about 'Fanned Fret" instruments. The muti-scale, or 'fan' arrangement is not about 'perfect tuning'. It is actually about trying to better optimize string tension vs. length. If you think about a piano, or a harp (or a guitar, vs. a bass), the higher strings are shorter, while the lower strings are longer. An instrument that has more 'traditional' parallel frets is compromising the string tension, at one end, or the other. A Gibson, with scale length of (typically) 24.75” tends to have a 'looser' low E string (which is why more players tend to choose a longer scale (or fan fret) for drop-D tuning, or 7+ strings). By comparison Fender Scale Length is 25.5” and the low-E is close to optimum, while the high-E necessarily has more tension, in order to bring the longer string up to the same note.
I designed and built a fan-fret guitar a few years ago, and was deep down this rabbit hole for months.
I have just started my transition from playing fretted (for 40 years) to playing fretless bass nearly full time, and I am loving it. Tony, you are, without any doubt, my biggest influence in doing so. I play with no lines across the front of the board, but I do have the dots and fret lines along the side of the fingerboard. I am slowly getting my muscle memory built to hopefully one day being able to not look at the neck so much. Thank you for your guidance and inspiration! You are indeed a MONSTER on bass! Cheers!
That’s great to hear. I does take time, no shortcuts for that.
And thanks so much!!!
@@FretlessMonster Thanks Tony! Your one of the favorite all time Fretless bass players hands down..
Tony, you are such a delight. Bravo!
Much appreciated
Tony your 100% spot on! I started with lined fretless and then went to unlined fretless. Playing the fretless bass is a thing of beauty, you can discover so many tones. But it also teaches you to be accurate, and the main thing it taught me was how to use my ears :) Run some scales and let muscle memory do its thing. Once you got that down packed run the same scales and close your eye and run them again and listen. listen for accuracy and then move your fingers slightly to the left and to the right and listen for the difference in the tone. This little exercise taught me a lot.
Perfectly stated! Thanks so much
Issue is Tony himself is not known for his great accuracy.He is slightly out of tune the moment he stop using open strings.
When he plays the open D then a F#, the F# is wrong, too low. He play non temperated interval. He a pianist was there playing a F#, Tony's F# would be wrong.
Thanks for this, your videos are very accesable and your laid back style makes it easy to pay attention. i shouldve looked into this before. I thought the effect was due to me playing with my right hand a little over the fretboard that changed the note. This is a game changer. Owned my fretless for 7 years only started playing it properly when i felt in the right frame of mind about a year ago, and sort of glad i waited. A bass is a very viceral instrument and for a fretless that goes double
That’s great to hear. Thanks for that. Enjoy the Fretless! Such a great instrument
Tony, you've totally nailed why I love playing fretless so much. My teacher made me practice with guitar tracks on a fretless with a blindfold on so I knew when I got it right by ear exclusively.
When I was gigging regularly I bought a cheap fretless I could just leave in our practice room & not worry about it. A few of our tunes were "fretless" songs but most of what we played live used my fretted bass, however practicing everything on the fretless made me so much of a better player.
Thank you Tony (for this video-& the blue signature bass!) Totally explained my frustration. Now I trust my ear again!!
Fantastic. Yes you can trust your ears 100%. Happy this was helpful. 👏🏻🤩
Thank you for the knowledge drop. There was a point in my last recording session where I isolated a few bass notes and tuned them so that they were spot on with the tuner (in Ableton) thinking it would make the track tighter and more solid in the low end. The track felt oddly dissonant when I did this and the bass part took on an unnatural sound that was very off-putting. I reverted to my last save of the session and everything felt so much better with those “out of tune” notes left in.
Wow. That’s really fascinating. Yes “perfect” isn’t necessarily perfect!!
This video was great. You encapsulated something I've been trying to talk about for years: while the classical semitones and note divisions are useful landmarks, the WHOLE audible frequency spectrum is at your disposal; USE IT! "Rhythm is the foot that carries music"... Pitch is pretty much arbitrary, rhythm contextualizes it. This is why total chromatic playing works, the rhythms give it that conversational pattern that we recognize as a song. And then you hit rhythm/pitch duality and then the mindfuckery begins.
Haha. Well stated. It’s a fascinating subject.
I started early on an unlined fretless with dots. It took a while to comprehend adjusting for where you're used to the lines being and where your finger pad actually touches and spreads out. Very important to orient to whether the dots are on the fret positions or where dots would normally be on a fretted bass- some basses place them differently. Thanks for sharing and helping folks continue to appreciate the fretless bass!
You nailed it! It simply takes time. No shortcuts 👍🏻🤩
Tony, you are the Man! Liked you since my teenage years in 80s. Great to see you, hope you are well and happy!!
Thank you Dennis! Much appreciated. We go back a long way!! 👍🏻🤩
Ah! The mystery, revealed! (Perhaps.) When I decided to learn bass after many years on the six-string, I got my TF Fender fretless and set it up with a tuner to test my intonation. Most of my notes were as accurate as beginner technique allowed. But *some* of my notes were consistently a fraction off what the tuner wanted to hear. And no matter how I went at it, even with the passing of time, those same notes stayed a fraction off. Maybe my ears *weren't* wrong, after all. Or maybe they're consistently wrong. But at least I now know the tuner isn't the final authority. ;-) Thanks, @Tony Franklin - The Fretless Monster
Haha. That’s great to hear that. And you were hearing things “correctly”. The musical scale is inherently imperfect.
I only recently started playing fretless because I drunk bought a fretless bass a couple of years ago. However, I fell in love with it for the sonic sounds it gives. That being said, I was getting frustrated trying to hit certain notes right because the notes do not hit right on the dots, so I took masking tape and stenciled frets on the side of the finger board with a silver permanent marker. It has helped me greatly.
What a fascinating story.
Cool that you could hear that it didn’t sound right to you. And you figured a way round it!! Cheers!
This is so excellent, this is real knowledge. Thanks! Amazing bass and playing.
Great! Thanks so much! 👏🏻🤩
Thank you, Tony! coming from the master, reinforcing what I always thought!
Great!! Thanks for that.
Tony, You have been my inspiration on fretless for many years. I wouldn't play fretless were it not for you. I think this is a superb example of how fret lines would get in the way. Take the song "Radioactive" by your old band The Firm. My band jammed on it the other day. But to sound right I was a little sharp of where the line would have been on the A. So yes - play by ear!! Fretlines just throw you off of a True Tone!
You nailed it. I have to do the same thing on that A! It throws you off a bit initially and I still have to remember it with that particular note whenever I play it. It’s wild really.
The major third is the most compromised interval in equal tempered tuning. Whether on my lined or semi-lined fretless or on my upright, if I've got the third all to myself I'll flatten that note to where it sounds better.
The marks on a lined fingerboard are not really a distraction; they can actually help to landmark where I need to go to get that magical major third.
It can be done on a fretted bass too, by fretting the minor third and bending it up almost to the major third, but I've got a long way to go to master that technique with consistency.
It's also good to wean yourself off those lines, to the extent you can. It's often important to make eye contact with the other performers, and you do have to pay attention to conductors and sheet music where those exist.
And one thing I'll say in defense of unlined basses: they do look totally cool. Never discount the value of that, as long as you can manage the intonation!
Great comments.
For me personally, the lines are very distracting and even annoying. But that’s just me. I started on unlined, and was never interested in lined.
Our ears are the best tool in the toolbox. 🙃👍🏻
you have opened me up to a new way of thinking. You are brilliant !!
Wonderful. Enjoy the journey 🤪🤩
Really interesting! I’ve played both for a long time & had not perceived this situation, thanks for opening my ears!
Great. Thanks so much
Years ago, I found out that tuning the G string slightly below what the tuner says on any guitar will make chords sound way better. This works even if you tune down the whole thing to D or C. I did some research and found out that James Taylor had a special tuning for each string that was always a bit off from the standard pitch. And, regardless of how you feel about his music, it's undeniable that his guitar always sounds perfect.
I don't know to what degree weird frets solve this issue, but I still resist them because they are really, really ugly. 😆
Haha. Great comments. And I totally agree.
I could never use the squiggly frets. They just look ugly. 🤣🤷♂️
Slightly below? So flatter? Just want to clarify so when I try this later. Thanks.
@@Linkskyfyre Yes. A little flatter.
It’s called compensated tuning. I saw a guide the other day about how flat each string should be to sound right
Theres also a video about john from RHCP doing the same
Same with open strings and fretted same note. On tuner you can have perfect tuned those notes but you hear that those notes are definitely not in tune. On fretless instrument you can adjust your tuning with just slightly move of your finger. On fretted it's impossible. And you can check all those notes on the whole fretboard and it's never perfect on every fret. It's always a little bit sharp or flat here and there. The thing is to setup intonation to balanced those imperfections. And with fretless you must control it with your left hand. Great lesson! Please make more videos like that. It really opens minds and ears!
You’re absolutely right with the fretted. It’s the unspoken dirty little secret!! 🤣🤷♂️
Thanks for your support. I’ll keep them coming!!
It's not impossible on fretted instruments, it's still done with the left hand just in a different manner. You bear down more or bend slightly to pull a note sharp. All of us, whether we are aware of it or not, whether we play with frets or without, make use of microtonal changes in our fingering.
Tony Franklin is awesome!
I love the way he makes a bass sing.
Great style, with passion and soul.
You’re very kind thank you so much.
@@FretlessMonster
Wow!
Thank you sir, for all the great music and inspiration.
@@scottmatthews172 I appreciate that!
Thank you Tony, you've articulated what I've been struggling to for a very long time. My bass has lines, I always thought my intonation was out, turns out I just have a good ear. I semi-tone my thirds, and others to compensate also.
Yessss!!! 👏🏻🤩👍🏻
Thanks for the lesson! Although it doesn't make me want to give up my lines, it does give me confidence to trust my ears when they say they note sounds good but the tuner says it doesn't!
Great. Yes it’s totally doable with the lines. For me they’re annoying and distracting. But there’s no right or wrong way to do it. As long as it sounds good right? 🤩👏🏻
Whenever this gets discussed on the forums it quickly turns into a flame war. I'm still very much a noob, but I'll say I've progressed much more quickly playing unlined than I ever did dabbling with lined fretless. I'm fully aware that the progression from 'Hey this isn't half bad' to 'wow I'm playing simple stuff in tune actually' coupled with the novelty of sliding harmonics.... the fun factor undoubtedly increased the amount of time I was spending on the instrument and that's probably a huge component. I've had so much fun with it that I've basically decided to move from 'guitar player who owns a bass' to 'bass player'. And it's a blast. I should've done this decades ago.
But I also think - the lines can help with position shifts, but they don't really help with muscle memory/fingerings, and that's where your intonation lies.
Good points. And great to hear it from your “new” (fresh!) perspective. Seems like some of those people who are posting have already made their minds up, or simply don’t want to consider the possibility.
More than anything in my video, I wanted to show the inherent “flaws” in musical notes and scales. I think the Fretless is perfectly equipped to handle those subtle adjustments- unlined especially so, but it’s totally doable on the lined Fretless too.
Nailed it.
Love it, I have lined fretless but I noticed what you showed here and also noticed I started adjusting with my ears so I love the explenation ❤
Great to hear. Thanks!
Your ears don’t lie! 👏🏻🤩👍🏻
Beautifully and simply demonstrated.
Wonderful. Thank you 😊
great video, I've been playing fretless for well over 20 years and none of my basses have lines. You've explained it all perfectly and it makes total theoretical sense, never been able to explain it in words, it just makes sense to my ears. Like you, it took me a couple of years before the fretless felt natural, now because I don't play a lot of fretted bass, I find the frets confusing especially if I don't practice, (completely my fault). I did have fibre optic side dots on my main fretless just to give me a little help on darker stages which I really love and they've come in handy. Probably wouldn't need them if I was just playing as your muscle memory and ears take over but with vocals you need just a wee bit more visual help. I've tried a few lined fretless basses but their just not for me, a little confusing to me. if anyone is thinking about getting into fretless, choose no lines, practice, practice, practice, train and trust your ears. You can do it!
Bingo!! Great words.
I hear you about those dark stage moments. It can be difficult. I’ve thought about the LEDs but I just can’t do it. 🤷♂️😂
And yes - practice practice practice. There are no shortcuts. We simply have to put in the time!
Lorne! Hey! How are you, my friend! Hope you're keeping well :)
@@noi5emaker awesome! How’s life on the other side o the pond? Lol
I have 3 unlined and 1 lined fretless. I prefer having more notes under my finger tips. The worst was when I played my fretted J-bass that I’ve barely played in maybe 25 years, at a gig because the guitarist saw it and thought it looked cool. I had to consciously try to bend to all the in between notes and I realised why I love fretless.
That’s great to hear!!
And “more notes”… I love that.
Fretless is the best!!
@@FretlessMonster yeah, read a book in the late 90’s that said some eastern music had 27 notes to the octave, which is close to 24 (12x2). I also made an Appalachian Dulcimer which was intended to be tuned and played in one key, and it had groups of 3 notes in some places where we would usually have a semi tone.
So I’ve known about the extra notes for maybe 3 decades. Obviously with the maj 3rd being 24 cents out, is one note area we find by ear, and the blues notes around the 7th too. Sometimes I’ll play 4 notes in the space of 2 or 3, which sound like the fit, and may be those 27?
Having owned both a line and unlined fretless I agree with TF. I found the lines caused me to focus more on the line and less on feel and what I heard. At the end of the day, it's what works for you so don't fret. Thanks Tony!
I totally agree. Whatever gets it done is good.
I find the lines very distracting and even annoying. Those adjustments can be done on either though.
Thank you for clarifying this for me. I’ve been playing fretless bass exclusively these past months, and this was the main problem for me. Now that I know that even someone like you are making the adjustments, I don’t have to feel so defeated when I’m practicing. I would make the adjustments, and I thought that I was doing something wrong or cheating.
Ah that’s great. You’re spot on!! 👏🏻🤩
Shouldn’t a fretless P-Bass really be called an “Imprecision Bass”?
Genius
I play lined Fretless, and I find myself naturally playing sort of around the lines for these sorts of tuning compensations. So I guess between using that and the side dots as a guide it's more of an aesthetic choice - I just like the way the bass looks better with lines. My ear will always drive what I play, ultimately, but I think that's the proper way to use a fretless, anyway. Having all that extra subtle expression with pitch is the whole point, I think. Love these videos, Tony!
Thanks for that. Yes I totally agree. Lined or unlined, both work to make those subtle adjustments. Whatever works for us is the right choice. For me the lines are distracting and annoying - but that’s just me.
Thanks for watching!
Mick Karn said his 'wobbly' style developed out of necessity because the aluminum neck Travis Bean bass he bought would never stay in tune & was constantly changing pitch depending on lights & environmental changes, so he figured if he moved around enough he could at least hit something similar 2 the notes he was going 4 LOL It's also (though he never admitted it?) basically doing Chinese 'Guqin' instrument style but with a bass. He says he digs 'Jaco' but I think that's a deliberate trick 2 throw people off & make it harder 2 copy him. Jaco is boring. Karn is interesting =) ~> czcams.com/video/FO7SFD1Pg8s/video.html
Unlined looks better. It looks "fretless" because there were never any lines from frets there to begin with. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with your sentiments 100% Tony. I started out on fretless about 15 years ago with the typical lined fretless Squier Jazz Bass. Then about 3 years ago after that neck got too warped and worn out for the truss rod to fix, I replaced that neck with an unlined Mexican Fender Precision neck. Not only did that neck improve the sound and feel of the bass, but not having the lines anymore actually helped my playing by relying more on my ear and less on the visual aid.
That’s great to hear! Yes we listen with our ears… not our eyes, right? 🤷♂️🤣🤣
Great video! I love the insight! Thank you!
I agree Tony, in the sense that when I play a fretless it is lined but I find myself rolling the ball of my fretting finger to "find" the proper intonation. But isn't that the beauty of fretless? The ambiguity and non-instantaneous landing on the pitch is what, to me, makes fretless beautiful. I saw a wonderful player, who shall remain nameless since he has passed, at an event in Florida that you also attended. Incredible dexterous player on fretless but he may as well have been playing fretted because he was so precise that there was absolutely no sense he was playing fretless! There was no, as I call it, "stank" or "chicken grease" on it. To me, that is the magic component. I once read that a perfectly in tune piano sounds boring!
What a great comment. I completely agree. Those in between “awkward” notes are where the magic is found! Cheers!
Right on Tony, awesome demonstration especially the orchestral example! It's a question of what is music really, a visual thing or an aural thing... we don't listen with our eyes. Even the fretted players know this. EVH on those early records deliberately tuned his guitar so that it sounded good for the song, even though it might of been a little "out of tune" with the tuner. If it sounds right to you, then it is right, regardless of what the tuner says. That's what makes music human, makes it breathe and connects to the listener... the intentional intonation combined with the micro-subtle shifts of teasing with the beat center. Without that stuff, we have quantized and stale repetition, and not living and breathing notes with color and depth. :)
Bingo. You nailed it. I often say we listen with our ears, not our eyes!
I knew about EVH. Interestingly it was the B string which he made a little flatter. That often is the bird in the chord. 👏🏻👏🏻
Yesterday I passed by a musician playing an acoustic guitar and performing some songs, and the guitar sounded weird, not in tune (I am shure he tuned it) and I remember the principal you explained in your video....
love your passion and energy! this got me wanting a fretless bass :)
Thanks so much. I do love Fretless!!
Best fretless lesson ever made! Just as I took a break and attempted to assimilate the lesson, I noticed that the comments are chock full of excellent advice!
I started in 4th grade on violin. I wanted to play upright but I feared having to carry to and from school every day. Decades later I ripped my frets out of my five string electric, applied boat resin and started using it for the local open mic nights. Turns out they weren’t lying when they said violin was a good introduction for upright. I tell everyone that plays frets to try fretless. I’m loving it!
Great! Thanks for that. Yes there’s some pretty insightful comments here.
I've been a bass player for almost 50 years. Like most, I started on guitar as a young teen. Jaco blew my world wide open and I always had a fretless since the late 70's. I've played lined and unlined. I took up double bass about 20 years ago and received some excellent professional instruction. I disagree that unlined basses are "superior" to lined. I say that as a seasoned player, though. They are not superior for me. As you demonstrate, the ears rule. The ears rule for any player -- you gloss over players of violin instruments as using muscle memory, etc, but you don't mention ears.... All the stuff about tempered tuning, etc -- this is all about *hearing* music. A strict devotion and dependence on lines and markers is obviously not the correct way to make music on our instrument, but that statement really only affects beginners. A seasoned player plays the right note, and they play it in tune -- lines or not, frets or not.
After all this time, and the reason my last fretless bass is a *lined* neck? Only one reason, and it's a good one, I think: I can make interval leaps with greater confidence. I can be from the bottom of the neck to the top with little concern for making sure I navigate the trip right. And I definitely *have* had to play parts where this is an issue. (Actually I engage in a bit of hype when I say only one reason -- I was putting a P-neck on a J-bass as a little project to restore an old bass. I threw a Warmoth neck on there and the lined version is less expensive.)
It's not correct to believe strings players work with no visual cues to the fingerboard. The fingerboard/body at the heel is a major visual and tactile cue. Players talk about seeing knots and grain on their fingerboards. Players make little dots with whiteout to manage parts that are challenging. And many many great players -- Edgar Meyer, for example -- have visual markers installed on their boards. The reason for this is *not* playing in tune -- it's to facilitate wide-ranging movement.
EARS are superior. EARS rule. The means for making the sound -- no matter how it's made -- are secondary. If you can't hear in tune, you won't play in tune.
(The only reason I'm making this point is your use of the word "superior" to describe the unlined version of the fretless neck. The neck is just a tool for making musical noise and only a poor workman blames his tools, right?)
Thank you for your heartfelt comments. I do appreciate it. As a professional bassist for 42 years now, I’m still a student.
I’ve been blessed to play with the likes of Jimmy Page, David Gilmour, Kate Bush, and many others along the way. Plus I have a signature Fretless bass with Fender.
I emphasized throughout about the importance of listening. I even put a silly cartoon to emphasize it. The unlined vs lined was more of conversation starter. You can absolutely make those adjustments just as well on the lined Fretless. For me personally the lines are distracting and even frustrating - so for me personally, I emphasize PERSONALLY - the unlined is superior. But that’s just me. 🤷♂️🤩 My personal taste.
Ears are the ultimate tool. Whether we do it on unlined or lined is a personal choice.
All the best.
Tony this heavily depends on the context, in a stationary triadic harmonic context natural interval will sound better obviously, but when harmony starts moving and other intervals are involved natural intervals will sound horrible.
This happens alot in amateur choirs, because the singers keep singing natural intervals and when any more "complex" harmonic movement or melody happens the choir keeps going terribly out of tune.
GREAT comment. 100% agree with you. 👏🏻👏🏻
Orchestral trombonist here. We do a lot of stationary harmonic stuff, you know, big chords in the brass section, and we nudge all those intervals into place so the chord rings. Major third down a touch, perfect fifth up a hair, raise your minor 3rd, etc. When you have to start moving about, that's what you practiced those scales for so many hours a day for so many years. Use those intervals, not the ones you use for vertical chord building.
Thank you, Tony. I had this argument with a bandmember not that long ago. He thought he'd won the discussion by forcing me to hold the note and then showed me on my tuner that I was playing flat. But in the studio the producer called it out and I got to play what I heard right. On a third it was about 2-3 cents flat and sounded perfect. Thanks for helping me believe I'm not totally crazy!
Ha! Wow! I’m glad you had some resolve on that. The ears don’t lie!
Brilliant.
Trusting your ears first. 👍
Thank you so much!
🍀🙏🏽
Thank you. Our ears are definitely our best musical tool! 🤩👍🏻👏🏻
thankyou thankyou thankyou for this insightful explanation. .have always played unlined , have always been fascinated by the third double stop . you are a true artist sir.
That means so much. Thank you. The ears know!
Well, Tony, I gotta hand it to you. Definetely opened some new doors regarding my approach to fretless playing. It's ears &eyes first and then the dots. Thanks for this helpful vid!
That’s great! Thanks fir that. I hoped to spark ideas and discussion.
That was an extremely interesting video . Thank you !
Always a Monster of a player and so knowledgeable. Thank you for sharing this.
Thanks so much. Thanks for watching 😊
saw you w/ the Firm in providence rhode island in 1987...changed my 17 year-old-bass-playing soul. this video provided more insight than any 3 dozen lessons i ever took.
Oh wow. That’s amazing to hear
Dude, this is genius! I’ve played unlined fretless since 1980 and I love the flexibility. I think your explanation of the 3rd is brilliant!
Thanks for that!! 🤩👏🏻
You have opened my eyes. I play a 5 string unlined fretless and in the beginning, i was going crazy trying to find why the side dots didnt align with what my ears were hearing. Many thanks! Much appreciated
Oh that’s great to hear. Your ears don’t lie! 👍🏻😊
After 30 years of playing fretted I made the leap. I blame Tony and Pino for all the joy I’ve discovered. Tony, you and I have chatted on other platforms. And I thank you.
This is not a plug, this is a recommendation. His model of basses are the real thing. I own Godin, Warwick, Sadowsky, Ibanez and Zon unlined fretless basses but I always go back to (and only gig with) the two Fender TF fretless basses in the rack. Black and blue. Show-ready out of the box. I know TF uses DR strings, I would also suggest TI JF344s for that perfect mwah.
Haha great. Oops sorry about that. 🤣👍🏻
Thanks for the plug, uhh, recommendation!!
Cheers
Great point! Thank you for your help!
Thank you for inspiring lesson, Tony! You made me think about many things today, including converting one of my basses to fretless...)
Nice! Thanks for that. Do keep me posted.
Good points. I have a lined fretless, but I've learned not to depend on sight alone. My ear is also my guide. I was intimidated by the unlined before, but after a few years with the lines I think I could handle the unlined fretless now.
That’s great that you heard it and adjusted. Yes the unlined can seem intimidating initially
Love this Tony. I have a lined fretless jazz bass, and I have learned what you are saying because just using the lines as your anchor point does NOT sound right. You definitely have to listen. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and all the years of your great playing! What a humble guy!
Thanks so much!!! And great that you heard that discrepancy.
same here. I play the 3rds (or other) a bit left of he lines, to get the harmoinics right. Great explaining Tony, thnk you!
I learn so many unique things from you Tony. Thanks.
That’s amazing to hear. Thanks for that 😊👍🏻
@@FretlessMonster Now if i could only find a Sire Fretless... budget :-) Your videos have made me believe I can be an adequate fretless player.
Wonderful insight, again you are the Man
Quite deep this lesson, I am going to thing about during the week :)
Yeah I definitely went into the deep end! 😂😂👍🏻
Tony, thank you for teaching us this. I had no idea this was a thing.
Great. Thanks for checking it out. Quite eye (or ear!) opening right? 😊
@@FretlessMonster It really is an “ear” opener. Now I’m going to be second guessing everything I play. Lol
What an entertaining teaching style - fun to listen to. I’m rolling with my lined 5’er for jazz - but appreciate your point. Plus, yours just looks much cooler…
Thanks for that. I like to have fun.
Yes I agree, the unlined looks super cool. But whatever we use to express ourselves is good! 👍🏻🤩
You are SO right on sir! I have been playing unlined for awhile now. It was uncharted territory and scary for a bit. I don't even have side dots!! But now after constant playing and playing,I'm finding my way around. It's a six fretless by the way! But I absolutely love the journey,and there is no turning back now!!! Thank you again sir! Peace!
Wow! No side dots. Respect to you my friend. It’s way better if you can do it that way though. Stick with it. It will pay off.
My second bass was fretless (Yamaha BB300F) and I had been playing 3 years. 20 years later, I got a Rob Allen MB-2 (?) which only has dots on the top. That is my favorite setup. Agree that it is all by ear and the lines were helpful in the beginning. Love the rundown on the thirds. Thank you, Mr. Monster!
Thanks so much. Do you find you’re more “free” with just the side dots. I started on unlined, but whenever I try an unlined bass I feel more restricted.
Thanks Tony. These posts are fantastic. I found long ago the intonation on my guitar was a little off (for my ears) on some tunes when recording. My solution was to change the tuning (just a tad) to fix the errors in fixed fretted instruments. It blows me away how fretless players can stay so tight to the scale without the frets. Great post Sir.
Thanks so much.
And absolutely true. I heard EVH did the same with his B string. It’s definitely a real phenomenon.
Great video! Very interesting! I learned something today, thank you for being my teacher!
That’s great. Thank you
@@FretlessMonster no, thank you! You're an awesome musician and I love your insights into things. Thank you for being you and sharing these videos with us all. Great stuff!
Beautiful as always and love these videos ❤
Thank you
When Tony puts out a video Satisfaction is Guaranteed
Haha. Nice one 👏🏻🤩🤣
absolutely pure gold. i always struggle with my guitar tuning for this, but luckily for me, in rock music something slightly out of place is part of the game. i found a way to have some distuning more tolerable, generally i find high pitches distuning unconfortable but can't stand out of tune chords, so i set octaves of high notes string first in a way they sound the best as possible, then i set the octaves of the lowest pitch strings, to have the best tuning as possible with chords in the first part of the neck. it's all about approximation..
Bingo!! Well said. And thanks so much.