How Future-Proof Are eBikes | Do You Really Need The Latest Tech?
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Do they make electric mountain bikes with planned obsolescence? Steve and Ady take a look at the Canyon Spectral:ON and the Specialized Turbo Levo, both from 2019. Looking at the eBike tech and the geometry they define what would make a bike outdated. They also discuss backwards compatibility and the reasons why most newer eMTBs aren't.
⏱ Timestamps ⏱
0:00 - Welcome!
0:31 - Why Do We Fear Buying A New eMTB
2:52 - The Specialized Levo
5:57 - What Is The Next Big Step?
7:16 - The Canyon Spectral:ON
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I would like to see a universal motor standard - any motor fitting into any bike. I know that the industry fears this (it would be VERY easy to do, though)
AT THE VERY LEAST keep the form-factor within the brand. Let us upgrade from our Shimano EP 8 to an EP 10 in three years. It's no loss for Shimano and a HUGE service to the clients
I would totally agree with a standard mounting system thereby allowing you to update to the latest motor spec without replacing the whole bike should you choose to do so. Imagine the confusion if each bike manufacturer had their own fitment standard for forks or wheels.
Within the brand makes sense, my only thing would be whether that would limit weight/motor power/ genre options.
Physical standardisation is the easy bit, but unless you also standardise all the electronics you'd still have to replace almost everything else linked to the motor.
@@weiran well - they all work on 36V and the batteries are made of clusters of 1.5V AA cells. "Electronics" are basically integrated into the motor. See how it works at Shimano: You get a choice ofe different displays at different price-points. The bike manufacturer decides what display will be screwed on the bars. You CAN very easily upgrade that part yourself (if you feel the need to do so). There isn't a lot of complicated black-box magic going on.
And even if so: then sell me the new motor with the new display unit. I need to buy a new shifter when I change my cassette and derailer from A to B, so I will accept that when buying a new motor, too
@@weiran I would be happy to change all of the components to achieve this, we do it now if we change drive trains from SRAM to Shimano or cable op to electronic shifting for example.
I recently picked up a sweet 2020 Giant reign e+ 3 on the used market for a bangain price. I can not afford new. It came with a 625w battery, giant did something very cool, the 750w battery from 2023 models, and upcoming 800w battery for the 2024 models will be backward compatible! Love Giant!
Then look at the parts you will need that ware out like head set or bearings and try and keep some spare in the future if you want to keep it running.
When the Ten Speed stuff was going out i got some cheap as i did not need 11speed at the time and then i did go from 10 Speed bikes to 12.
2:32 "if everything was backwards compatible, they wouldn't sell anything"
THE BRAINWASH ON THIS GUY... IT WORKED, THE PLAN WORKED! It only took 90 years since the first "planned obsolescence" and "creative waste" books came out but it was worth the wait!
The Guy doesnt know about spd pedals
I think every emtb review should say whether the motor is serviceable for refreshing/rebuilding, or not. The horror stories on serviceability is why there’s so much market hesitation. This video barely broaches the subject, and many here would like to see some investigation into just how serviceable the various brand of motors are. Why the taboo on this?
Wait for the second part.....
I think the motor manufacturers want to make sure all repairs go thru their service centers - it's part of the lifecycle ROI on these things. Giving that piece of the pie up won't happen until legislation requires it, much like the 'right to repair' legislations that have taken root in other realms of devices to address this very concern. This is one area where 'governmental interference in capitalism' has a quantifiable positive benefit to the consumer. In the meantime, treat your motor as a consumable, much like a battery (and don't ever get a jetwash near your motor if you know what's good for you)
My Giant 2017 dirt-e still rides like the day I bought it, yes it only got a 500wh battery and the geometry is out of date but it still puts the biggest smile on my face in the woods, and that’s more important to me, love it.
Exactly!
i have a 2021 Turbo Levo Comp was a 29er swapped it up to a mullet and runs like a dream.....love the Levo its a beast.
Planned obsolescence, perhaps not, but poor serviceability on a bike that isn’t fully water proof, that isn’t guaranteed to be supported by the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim, a bike that I can’t buy replacement motor parts for once the warranty period has lapsed. All of that for a cool 6k - bargain :/
After 30 years of racing and flogging myself, today I hired a demo Levo and rode my locals trails.
Myth busters:
1. My Strava cardio stats were not slack, for a 3hr ride, I sat in tempo for 80 mins, anaerobic for 30 mins.
2. Riding the bike correctly, utilising the cadence to deliver constant power and how the bike engaged was eye opening.
3. In 30C heat it was quite pleasant,it was only when the sun delivered 38C did it hurt,
4. Legs are fresh as, rising the analogue XC tomorrow
Time to throw away the vitriol and embrace what this platform has to offer.
The latest and greatest is a game for the rich man. My wife and I spent a little over 12k on our e-bikes. We did so because we liked them and plan to keep them for a long while.The constant pounding of new new new is what you have to fight against and just keep what you have that is just fine for you at this moment. Remember this “ If it was made, then it can be fixed”. Keep up on the maintenance and your bike will always feel new to you. Don’t live in fear go ride and have fun.
Yup, too right
Ever try getting a Shimano motor rebuilt? Seems nobody can…..This is where the worry begins
I'm finding this. Why wasn't this addressed in the article. This is the type of thing stopping people buying e bikes, not twaddle about head angle degrees and chainstay length.
Seems that the Bosch and Brose (motors used with specialized eebs) seem to be the most 'repairable' with replacement parts - shimano repairs seem to be cloistered behind the big blue door with a 'do not enter' sign posted (which is a shame because the EP800/801 motors are awesome to pedal).........this 'right to repair' issue seems to be the 1000lb gorilla lurking behind all the amazing tech, as we full well know, everything eventually needs to be given the once-over freshening. I thing Steve and EMBN just talking about this without scratching the surface deeper is about all that can be expected as they do have to pay the bills too - can't pissoff the makers too much - I can respect that.@@darrenrobertshaw8030
Gen2 Levo was extremely fun bike, I also appreciated the 51 offset.
You are always going to get the folks that need the latest and great thing. I bought a new 2yrs old model when I came aboard the emtb world in 2023 and I've not been disappointed. Folks will buy what makes them happy. For me, I'll buy and hopefully have enough money left to enjoy. Some buy and have no money left to enjoy.
That's great, sound like it was the right choice for you! 🤘 What brand and model did you go for?
@@embn I bought a 2021 Giant Trance E+ 2 29er Pro. I've been places on it I'd never go without it. I've ridden it up accents and down decents I'd struggle to walk. Longest ride so far has been 72mls, albeit a lot of non assisted pedalling on the easy stuff to keep the assist for the climbs. I'm not saying it's the best bike, I can't as its the only one I've owned but it certainly seems to suit me very well. It's like a mountain goat.
Am I a Specialized fanboy ? Well yes... But we have several Turbo models that are a few years old now with thousands of miles on them and haven't broke anything, we've replaced tires and chains etc... but that's it 😊
Great to hear Jimbo
You can't fix the electronics (e.g. torque sensor) of that Shimano e8000 and a new one is 1000 pounds from a dealer if you want another one with a 2 year warranty.
They aren't exactly rewinding coils or anything useful. A bearing change and cog swap is the least of my worries
Cost me 800 for a new e8000 installed it myself, and the motor will outlast its warranty, personally speaking i found shimano approved dealers horrendous, werent interested in putting shimano software on for me, so done it myself with STunlocker 👍
Totally agree - my comment posted above on same basis - where is the repair/recycle/reuse ethic in EMTB motors
Well played gents !!! still rocking my 2017 Haibike's OG battery ... Waiting for gearbox motor combo as that is the next game changer
Hmmm interesting thought but I doubt it. Not from shimano in any case. They've recently spent gazzilions on their automatic transmissions and will need to recoupe that first. If integrated gearboxes are going to happen they will be at least 5 years away.
ETMB obsolescence. Frankly, the segment should be focused on consumer retention rather than hooking new ones. We could be fast approaching that tipping point.
The only way to do this is full serviceability, accessible parts, and an aftermarket solution for upgrading to keep old motors and batteries relevant. How many people are riding around on last gen bikes? ALOT. A hell of a lot more than new bikes.
As the years are now adding up, what happens when they start to fail. The consumer is faced with limited choices. Buy a new bike and basically throw the other one in the trash and recycle the battery. Or buy an enduro frame set, build the frame with the broken emtb parts, post it as an entire bike for sale, and ride it whilst they wait for the sale.
We are talking about a realistic consumer base. Only for some or, worst case, most consumers becoming accustomed to the ole mtb again. Some will feel resentment. Some feeling bamboozled. They WILL not invest again. Depending on this upcoming number of consumers, the EMTB sector itself could become obsolete. Fads come and go in this industry. Very slippery slope to "play" on.
they mention you cvan repair the motors too, but in reality you need specialist tools and a lot of knowledge to attempt it.
also about the only thing you can actually get spares for are the bearings?
dead torque sensor etc is always new motor time, water damaged circuit board? good luck getting another
also the places that will overhaul the bearings for you charge almost half the cost of a new motor to do it.
I have a 2019 YT Decoy. I still love riding it and it is still relevant today. I did pick up a 700wh battery from YT and do have to give much credit to YT for making a bigger battery that is compatible with a 5 year old bike. That alone makes me want to keep the bike for another 5 years. Regarding reliability, the shimano motor did give up after 7000 miles. Unfortunately in the USA there are no repair centers. I had to buy a new motor.
Hmmm....we need to explore the US side of motor fixing on channel it seems
I had a Bosch unit changed 2yrs ago on a 2020 trek, the new motor did 200 miles and just stopped Bosch said the warranty was on the original bike not the new motor so they offered me a replacement for 450 which I had to buy
I'm on my 5th Gen 2 (2019 model year purchased April 2020) that I had to buy because Bosch wouldn't extend the warranty.
I did get 11,000 km out of the original but the next 3 were pathetic
that's extremely unusual . bosch is known for its reliability . to have multiple failures suggest the problem is elsewhere .
I am running A 2019 Levo Hardtail .And as I have Always just rode local Tails and bridleways . In Suffolk It seems all I need . So repair and fix seems the way to go ... I only started with EMTBs after the age of 60ty and it does a great job of helping me do 30 mile plus loop rides
I’m on the verge of buying a second hand one of these. Would you buy again? Do you like the bike?
Battery universal compatibility would be useful. I build my own ebikes to be able to use the same batteries on various bikes (commuter, trail bike, wife and son's ebikes), as well as take extra batteries for longer rides. $800AUD for each battery gets expensive when needing to buy different batteries for each bike. As well as replacing batteries after about 5yrs
That's great! Are you using bolt on kits for the bikes?
@@embn , bolt on hub drives, some with torque sensor bottom brackets. Currently building a hard tail with CYC Photon mid drive. They all use the same 48v battery mounts.
If I was a bike brand, I would design bikes that enable using the same battery across riding disciplines (e.g, hard tail, commuter, down hill etc). Cheaper than other brands, entices customers to buy more bikes, and build a more loyal customer. The alternative is to upset customers when they find they have a number of ebikes they have to replace batteries for, as they can't swap batteries between bikes.
I had that exact canyon and I loved it but I now have the 2022 ON and it is amazing!! I absolutely love it + I have just upgraded to Sram T-type.... a game changer!
Great video, thanks!
Please do the video again, without the consumerism („obsolete“,“geometry“), but just about maintenance.
You get chains, casettes etc. for a 80s/90s era bike for an age-adequate price.
Lets see what maintaining an Shimano EP8 or Bosch 4th-Gen motor over 20 years costs.
I have less worries about the big brands, but the small ones (Fazua, TQ, …) supplying parts or publishing parts schemas.
Sometimes (notice I did not provide indication of how often) "planned obsolescence" can be replaced with "compromise between price and performance". Could they make motor that will last decades? Yes. Would you be thrilled about it? Likely not, either due to performance or price.
I 100% agree you don't need to by a new ebike just DIY upgrade your existing bike. I looked at the latest spec bikes and there is vary little difference with the modern ones.
still loving my gen 2 levo!
I was literally just watching a post on the FB emtb channel of someone's Santa Cruz emtb failing - after 2 months. So when you say all innovation has happened, how about building bikes that last? This channel is only here to peddle their sponsors marketing BS. Get on the forums and just look at how many people are experiencing major failures, the awful warranty claim experiences, the fact you cant buy replacement parts outside of the warranty period. The percentage of failures should not be happening at the price point they sell these bikes - but of course you guys don't buy your bikes, so if there is an issue you have very little to worry about.
I've had my Haibike Nduro Full7 for six years. I keep looking at new bikes but keep coming back to the fact that it still works and does everything I ask of it. I have been tempted by lighter bikes (for lifting over gates!) but the cost is prohibitive.
Great info Cheers
Still having my 2018 levo HT 27,5+ 15k kms on clock and love this bike .Learned how to fix motor which broke down around 12k kms .And now runs like new super quiet and with loads of power just couple parts were changed inside motor . Also older bikes were easier to de-restrict with old 1 Gen levo you basically just need one app (Blevo) and its ready to go also parts are available for good price online. For me way to go is rebuild kits with torque sensing motors like photon or tsdz8 . Service is easier and parts are available online. New tech is nice but it can be problem until reliability is proved in time .
One major problem with the repair of motors as a cost effective solution - it does not seem that Shimano motors can be repaired at all in the UK if it is an electrical/electronic issue. I have had 4 Shimano motor failures in 5 years - all electrical and unrepairable. None have lasted 2 years and I have had to pay a lot for replacements as the 2 year warranty only covers the original motor or a purchased replacement
We're sorry to here that! Hopefully your latest motor will last you 🤘
@@embn I wouldn't hold my breath
The only future proof ebike will need to built on a solid foundation. There is a reason the 90% of bikes seen in most used bike shops are Hi-Tensile and Chromoly frames, steel is so much tougher, and longer lasting it can even be welded and repaired sometimes. E.g. Ferrum(US), Starling cycles(UK), Marino bike(peru). For suspension components, air springs are great for tuning, prototyping and racing, but for everything else coil-springs are many times tougher and longer lasting. The costs of suspension service is insane.
Until more mfg start making them on steel frames, we may be stuck with whatever there is or a conversion. Then we get to ebike components, the biggest gains will be in battery replacement costs, so going for less power, or an oversized battery will do it. Also keeping that battery cool during use and during charging. The same pretty much goes for motor wear and tare. Another good way of keeping battery costs is going with a set up that can take a generic but high quality battery, like an em3ev
I have an older trek, but it is still far more capable than I am. I still love it. And every year I have it is a year I would not have been able to ride trails without it. And the new ones are a lot more expensive than mine was!
My Trance X E+ is now almost $2000 less than when I got it in late 2022. A little annoyed but at the time, it was still not a slam dunk to even be able to get your hands on the bikes and I've got over 1000 miles on it already.
It is amazing and the adventures I've had on it so far are priceless. I has had 0 issues and nothing new out there makes me think it will be outdated soon.
1000 mile review recorded and being edited :-).
After looking at emtb’s for the last 5 years whilst riding my xc hard tail .
I’ve just bought a Turbo Levo.
It’s awesome, such a great bike to ride. First ride out was a 19.5 miles ride on muddy sloppy terrain with a few steep climbs thrown in. Got home and still had 73% charge left in the battery.
That’s plenty of range for a good day out.
I’m a very happy chappy.
Means at 65 I can get out and not completely knacker myself on a long ride out.
Happy days 😀
Good on you Ian!
I'm still riding a 1st gen turbo levo still a great bike.
So am I! I've upgraded the drive train and brakes, but my 2017 bike is just everything I need.
2017/18 (not sure which without looking) Trek Powerfly 5 fs 500w still going strong on same motor and still sounds ok. Still love the bike, keep looking at new models but what more will I get ( apart from bigger battery = more distance) for the outlay.
I picked up a 2023 specialized kenevo last fall. I figured that since it uses the same battery (with different bottom ‘rock guard on bottom) as the Levos they’ve sold a ton of the past few years, they will have to support this electronics/motor/battery design for a number of years out. Great bike as well btw, but thinking about the future and parts also factored into my decision to choose this bike over others. Also heard awesome things about warranty support from them.
I dug deep and decided that I would go over budget and get the ebike I wanted, travelled miles to try the bike out and get a better idea of size, I would have walked out with the bike there and then if this 2023 bike didn't come with and old obsolete fork casting which was superceded a few years ago, for the same money I can get a much better spec with another brand but I'm a fan boy/brand loyal and I really wanted that specialized, I can't justify just shy of 6k on a bike that has got the same forks as my 2020 mtb
Just to be clear, fox don't make the forks it come with anymore and it is old stock, planned obsolescence, how's about selling obsolete parts as new, that's just ripping people off
That's a very interesting subject 🤔 The stock was probably bought in the cycling boom during covid! The part its self even though it's 'older' stock seems like it is still a high performance part we imagine. There has been a lot of this going on from every brand but it's not necessarily a bad thing! It's also great for the environment as the parts are being used instead of sitting in a warehouse or being melted down/thrown away!
@@embn I get that but that new lower leg casting with the oil channel is a game changer that should be on a new bike... If the bike companies want to pass old stock on they bought a at better price then that should be reflected in the consumer price, I'm trying to buy a bike that's going to last years (normal wear and tear considered)... I used to design and build machines for measuring the accuracy of manufactured parts, I recognise the engineering leap and cannot accept buying a backwards step as new
Still riding Wyhte RS 180 but waiting for belt driven geared motor , Pinion seem to be leading the way with this !
I'm hoping that we get up at least 20mph if not a little more and the drag when you go over the the pedal assist that is about 15mph at the moment... I find my self going over this limit even on the flat and when it drags it's a right old pain to be sure
Standards , Standards where are the Standards. Can't we have a Standard battery format which is interchangeable? Frame mountings?
Have a 2019 alloy Levo that I bumped up from 500 Wh to 700 Wh battery after 2ish years of hard riding, which was awesome. Will I be able to get a new lighter 1000+ Wh solid state battery to fit when available?
I could be worth asking Specialized if that's something they plan to do 🤘
I sometimes look at the latest bikes and wish I had an internal battery or that it was bigger...but then I remember I got my bike for £1000 less than the comparible current bikes with larger batteries! If it had cost £4000 at that time I would not have been willing to pay it.
The yamaha system has proven to be very reliable. Once the mileage gets a big higher I will send it in to be regreased as that's a known service requirement for this motor.
Just ask yourself the question if your bike works fine and you are satisfied with the battery range then why spend thousands on another bike which will give you only marginal gains? If you can get 30 plus miles out of an older generation battery then that would be enough for me.
@@MadLFC yeh the only thing that I don't like about my current bike is that a 500wh battery does limit which power modes you can run on a longer ride. It would be nice to make more use of the motor's full capability instead of sitting down in eco mode... but I guess I can save that fun for shorter rides.
I agree. My 2018 haibike is still shredding with a new yamaha motor
Still running and loving my Canyon Spectral On 2018 as seen in your last show of 2023 and more to the point the conditions I mainly ride in....ie the UK Winter's. My bike has only done 2300km so far and I've maintained it well. It's had all the suspension bearings replaced, head bearings, two cassettes , three derailleurs ( the worst design thing on an emtb in my opinion) and loads of chains, the Motor has been bullet proof! no issues at all....none!
If I change my current bike I would be looking at a emtb with the pinion GMU, only the price is the sticking point....it needs to come down and or other manufacturers come along with their own versions.
MGU's ARE! the next big change for emtb I think.
Tony.
Scarborough.
i have a 2021 levo (second gen?) with the 2.1 motor and you say things are upgradeable and repairable. if say my motor goes and i upgrade to the 2.2 with the software/display from the 2.1 be compatible with the 2.2 or will that all need to be changed too? like your friend i still love my old levo vs the new ones because its still a 29er front and rear.
If that is something that you want to do then the best place to talk to is your local Specialized dealer, they'd be more than happy to go through the steps of the upgrade process!
Super topic! Just ask yourself one question: do I have fun with the bike I ride today? Yes? Why not in a few years?
Exactly. I do think the gen3 levo was a worthy step up from the previous generation of bikes though. Can't see things changing radically from here on out in terms of sizing but I'm sure they will conjure up something to keep selling bikes.
motors need a better waterproofing design for the UK
We can’t even make a bottom bracket that doesn’t fails within 6 months, motors have the same issue, things that are going round are impossible to seal!
My 2021 orange surge, a 2 year newer bike has only a 500wh battery as did many other bikes of that year, so I feel the bike u picked for this video was ahead of its time back in 2019, battery size was mentioned a few times and I believe this is one of the main reason people don’t want to commit to a new bike is because riding in eco and trail while your mates are boosting around everywhere with there 750wh battery kind of spoils the fun, progression is the way forward but when your still paying for your current ebike you definitely can feel left behind 😢
I have a 2021 Trek Powerfly 7. I prefer a hardtail and this is perfect for me. The motor died in January. It was 1 month out of warranty with about 6000 miles. Bosch replaced the motor free of charge. They were brilliant.
That's great that you were able to get sorted out!
Aftermarket will fill the void . You will have new bosch copies , batteries to suite .
If you had to buy a new Motor for a car or motorbike if the motor stopped for any reason then you couldn't afford that so why do you have to for an emtb
Soooo, Levo gen 2 is like 21 kg with a 700wh battery. Full assist. I'm not an owner of the big S but its quite impressive.
It’s crazy to hear that there isn’t anything around the corner when the Pinion gearbox for eMtb is right at the cusp of making breakthrough.
Don’t buy ANY eMtb this year! Maybe 2025 or 2026 will be ok years to go out and buy a solid bike with belt and gearbox
I agree,my decathlon est900 is 4 years old, showing no signs of giving up anything, I won't buy another ebike for at least three years and then itll only be because I fancy a full suspension one
Wow the spectral has come a lonnng way
This goes on with dirtbikes, guys HAVE to have the latest 13K dirtbike, and their frikken going trailriding.
Trailriding, a 10 year old bike can still do way more than is asked of it by most riders.
Part of this is impressing the other guys in the car park with "the latest thing". Its an expensive way to go have fun.
The simple factor of "Is it fun to ride, does it work?" Somehow gets left behind and shiny and new becomes the end all.
Motors are not fixable. I've had 2 exchanges from 2 different manufacturers one under goodwill, after warranty expired the other one I had to pay, plus the mounting cost
I have over 4000 miles on my ebike and the only reliability issues I have had so far have all been with the bicycle components not with the electronics or motor.
Do a self conversion instead of buying ready made ebikes.
The only "fear" i have when buying a new bike is snapping a frame the first few times out. Ride, maintain, and repeat!
I don't see a need to upgrade the motor of an older frame. A higher torque motor will be larger and radiate more heat. Those physical changes require a different frame. Battery technology is the last possibility for major advancement unless someone develops a room temperature super conductor. ✌
👍Most Emtb's are starting to get a steeper seat tube angle, which makes them more of an uphill bike, which is a shame as you lose the comfortable sitting position when riding flat, which is what you mostly cycle with your Emtb.
look at the Pole Emtb with 81° seat tube angle😵💫
Emtbs are for going uphill fast and steep seat angles are for going uphill comfortably. If I wanted to ride flats and crush my balls with a slack seat tube I'd probably just go for a road bike..
@@godstrashman
Ok, then you drive and I cycle to the mountains we are going to climb.
I'm guessing you have a full power Emtb of about 30 kg.
I have 2 Specialized levo SL, 1 Orbea Rise, 1 Specialized Enduro and 1 Specialized Epik.
Hence different opinions about the seat tube angle😉
What about the Bosch planned obsolescence, just think smart system
Got my e-hardtail 2019 and I'm well past 11000km on it. At about 10k the motor picked up a habit of adding some new whirring noices to its soundprofile. Now the battery is at about 50% capacity, and barely holds anough for functioning at my commuting. New (smaller) battery is 400-600€. Motor installed would be 1000€, but that be diffferent new model, that I dont think fits the same batteries. I've been told the motor can't be fixed. I dont want to invest 400-600€ on a battety, when I cant expect the motor to last for much longer. And I dont want to invest 1000 or 1500€ in case both of them need to be replaced. Add in new drivetrain, grips, tires and any parts that wear out and it is as much as a new bike on discount.
Motor ,electrical components fixable 🤔not a reality had Bosch motor failure on a Cube out of warranty Bosch uk didn’t want to know said motor was unrepairable needed a new replacement, try finding a reputable repairer that can actually repair a motor not just change bearings diy repairs are a no no even if you can find the parts
Bring on the gearbox combined with the latest battery technology. Stay clear of the really expensive high end bikes such as the S-works as the depreciation on these hurts big time when the technology improves 12 months after you purchase it or the manufacturer decides to discount the runout model by 30%.
I think belt drive systems that finally get rid of the chain altogether will be the next "leap" forward. It should lower initial cost and maintenance costs eventually but the first ones will be expensive. Hurry up Pinion and others!!!
16000 miles on my Trek Powerfly and still enjoying it. OK it's not like my Giant E+0 but parts are cheap, I can work on it and it's a versatile dependable workhorse. Also secondhand batteries are relatively cheap so as my first Bosch battery is coming to the end of it's life I just buy another one. The bike is great if looked after.
That's amazing! Hopefully you'll have many more miles to come 🤘
I'm still not sold over the message of this video. I ride a Gen 2 Levo and I feel like in no time the support for the BROSE S MAG drive will come to an end as soon as Brose moves on to full production of their 48V systems. Given how unreliable BROSE S MAG has been over the years, I am skeptical that the even newer and improved belt will save this model from the predicament that Brose got themselves into. I'm on my 3rd motor now and I'm somewhat worried that my next motor won't even be available anymore. I mainly say "somewhat worried" because there is hope with the SRAM commitment towards adopting this model in their lineup, there might be cross compatibility in the future should regular Brose S Mag go extinct. I'm also not sure where you get those repair prices, here repair technicians charge around $600 for basic repair, excluding shipping.
No they will not be obsolete so buy one today!
Let’s cross that bridge when we get there.
Having a heavy full power I can see going lighter. Even smaller batteries and perhaps getting two with your purchase.
And “ engineers/ designers “ PLEASE understand how physics works. Most if not all bottom “strike plates” go OVER the frame and not under it sucking up any bit of water and dirt thrown that way. Why do you think roof shingles overlap one another from the top ones over bottom ones. Is just common sense. Please fix this so we don’t have to remove that cover monthly to clean it out. And if you have never removed it go take a look. 😳
So my prediction is things will get lighter, with possible less power and multiple smaller batteries and better water protection. Find a way to protect those outer bearings that cause that weird grinding noise issues and prolong use. Besides that, getting an EMTB has been the best purchase in my life!
So grab yourself one and stop worrying about what’s next!
Far in the future I can see belt driven gear boxes incorporated with the motor. Belt from crank to rear wheel to be clear. Now that is the future!
Steve - that looks like one of my dog walks at Moors Valley ?
What's around the corner...
Combined motor/gearbox, belt drive= minimum service/wear means a Massive change??!!
Solid state batteries?
Agreed. I have a 21/22 Orbea Rise, and I love it, but I will not even consider a swap until the MGB units have bedded in. As for the durability, I trashed my 1st derailleur in over 13 years of off-road cycling last December (climbing with enough speed to flick up sticks, something I struggle to do on an MTB). Highly unlikely to have happened with an MGU.
I purchased a top of the range at the time Haibike in 2012 complete with a Bosch motor and puny 250 w battery. I swear that thing aged in Dog years! Three years later in terms of technology I felt like I was riding a penny farthing! I sold it and lost my shirt on it. I now have an E converted mountain bike which does exactly the same job, but is actually faster, private roads yada yada 😉You can remove the kit and upgrade as stuff wears or new comes out or fix it onto a completely new bike. You’re not dropping £5K + each time you want to upgrade. I know it’s fashionable to look down on converted bikes and I get that if you are riding the big stuff, then you need the best, but how many people in reality are doing that compared to how many more people would buy e-bikes if the components were swappable and interchangeable bringing the price into reach of your average person. I love how people bang on about riding E bikes as if it is saving the planet. But what about all the obsolete crap that is going in the ground 🤷🏻♂️
What happens when a Shimano motor gives up out of warranty? The recon company you mentioned dont work on Shimano due to Shimano's refusal to support them. I can't find anyone else who provides the service.
Battery range is about the only critical element when comparing older E-MTB technology to the latest. I can live with slightly outdated geometry or a bit less motor power as long as I can get from A to B without running out of juice. I've just bought a 2023 Cube Stereo Hybrid with a PowerTube 750 which will last me for the next several years and perhaps beyond that.
Assuming I can replace or repair anything electrical (including battery) on the bike I'm not interested in the latest tech if my current bike can do all I need it to do. I've seen lots of Bosch older generation motor/battery tech available online so I can safely assume my latest generation tech will be serviceable in several years time.
Id like an ebike under 15 KG with new super battery tech and that would help with when you go pat that legal limit
Solid state batteries?
Closed protocols and the lack of user maintainability drive obsolescence.
I was complaining in the beginning, but know I understand, this is the ebike that I have, and instead of complain I should focus on enjoying it and get the most of it.
Can see too many motors being sold reconditioned and in perfect order, places that rebuild them, so, why worry. Let's enjoy what we got.
Manufacturers could do more to improve backward compatibility, true. However, there are many components on E MTBs (or any MTB) that can be swapped out during its lifespan. Our Rocky Mountain powerplay is now 6 yrs old with thousands of kilometres and an embarrassing number crashes. So far we replaced the motor, tensioner etc, converted bike to a mullet w/Zeb fork, replaced various drive chain parts etc and the bike still kicks a$$. Don't even want a new one
You say that most of the evolution has happened. I disagree. I think the combined motor/automatic gearbox will be a game-changer for most riders when it hits the mass market. If it's coupled with belt drive it could produce the low maintenance and high reliability product that many people crave.
I had the same fear before buying mine. Depreciation of these bikes is huge, so they may be future proof, but reselling them will be tough. Servicing is also a bit questionable. Although possible, it is not widely available. Official dealers still reject motor repairs. I suspect at some point old motors will lack spare parts and new batteries will not fit old frames. Hopefully not. On the other hand, analog bikes pretty much reached their peak so they keep their prices well. I rode my analog bike for more than 10 years before switching to another one. I really doubt that the emtb will last that long.
As a conclusion and avoidance of a doubt, buying an emtb was one of the best investments in my life, it is a whole new world. I do believe that at some point, light emtbs will kill most of the analog bikes except the lightest XC.
For me the question of what I need is obsolete; I buy what I want and what is available.
Consumers need the right to repair their own e bikes, batteries and motors or motor repair kits need to be made available to the public and not being tied to a specific dealer for these repairs. Just imagine if car dealerships were allowed to do this, it’s Scandalous!
If Apple ever came out with an Ebike you can bet every year would be something changed from the previous, I still rock the Iphone 7 and have no need for anything the Iphone 14 is capable of. I just sold my 2021 Yamaha Moro Pro and was pleasantly surprised I could get a brand new PWX2 drive unit for only 585.00 US which was a selling point to the new owner.
The next evolution will be lighter and cheaper, bringing the cost down. The next BIG step will be 'finally' gear-box integration. Small light motor, no cassette, lighter wheels and better suspension handling. And since there is an e-boost, no issue with any drag in the gearbox (which there isn't much any more). Plus, with electronic shifting, no need for that 'double cable for a gearbox. Full shifting, up and down, under load. Low center of gravity. Just need the overall system a couple of pounds lighter.
They should at the very least make the motor bottles backward compatible so that you can swap newer motors on it.
There has been a movement to make the motors smaller and lighter (even in the full fat eBikes). This could be the main reason for the motor bolt placement being different as the motor has to blend seamlessly with the frame for the structure.
All of the parts of a bicycle, and motor, have already spent decades being optimized. I'm sure people will still manage to find ways to improve them, but I'm not expecting any huge advances in that regard anytime soon.
Battery tech, however, could improve dramatically. There are a lot of better options, and it's only a matter of time until they start getting applied to e-bikes as well, but right now other industries are getting priority and lithium is the only option for bikes.
The only part of your bike that might get phased out in the next 5-10 years, is the battery, and if you ride a lot, it will be near the end of its life by then anyway. And if not? Then you can still upgrade anyway, and sell your old battery. Rechargeable batteries aren't going to become worthless anytime soon. Even if we come out with something that is safer with higher energy density and faster charge rate and longer lifetime, your old battery that's down to 85% capacity is still useful to anyone with a solar setup that just needs batteries to store power and doesn't care about energy density because the batteries aren't going anywhere and their weight is irrelevant. For a home solar setup, all that matters is cost effectiveness of the battery.
The only thing I see in the future is lighter weight, 700watt or more batteries and full power smaller motors! Other then that nothing to worry about
There are few standards some bikes Hamites upgrade paths when geometry these days isn't really changing or materials there is no reason a bike can't last for 10+years but with out common standards waste becomes an issue, this goes for standard bikes too with new when standards every 3-4 years.
I still think standards such as motor and battery fixing mounts should be backwards compatible either within brand or industry wide.
It’s all well and good someone without money concerns saying “if things didn’t change we wouldn’t have progress”.
You can take a 1995 steel hardtail and fit modern group sets to it giving them life over decades. Why can’t e-bikes do the same for replacing old motors and batteries for new?!
By not doing so, it also diminishes the secondhand sale value for the owner. Which could potentially help find their new one.
With cars in the UK parts must be available up to 20 years after production has stopped for that model...what about Bikes...
ZERO mention of the elephant in the room, THE BATTERY! The reason people don’t want e-car is that the battery degrades and it cost more than the car to replace. For the eMTB the lack of compatibility with newer models means that when the battery is dead so is the bike!
I have a Trek 9000 from 1990 in my garage. I don’t take it off road anymore (progression happens), but I could if I wanted to and it’s still a perfectly suitable city bike. Will generation-Y electronics, motors & batteries from Bosch be available or repairable in 30 years? 15 years? 10 years? No one knows for sure. If they aren’t, that e-bike frame & battery are going to the recycling bin like an iPhone 6, and you’re left with 20 year old components that won’t be worth dropping onto a new frame.
I’m not worried about progression-related obsolescence. I’m worried about long term sustainability.
Amazing, so you still ride it every now and then? Sustainability is so important, quite a lot of bike companies are taking steps in the right direction though!
The more expensive e-bikes get ,the more miles a rider has to ride to justify the price , as they depreciate so quickly,.Simple maths , that the makers don't want you to know because they just want customers to keep up - grading. The one thing that riders can't quantify is the fun factor , sometimes priceless.
I have a gen1 Kenevo. Amazing bike. Have had 4 batteries in 12 months. Awful reliability. Love it tho. Il waiting for a gearbox bike for my next one.
If the manufacturers stop making parts for older bikes then they just get thrown out? It is a lot of money to spend for some. At least with an industry standard motor mount the bikes may be a bit more future proof.
Ever heard about the law of headlines?
Bike mfgs could and should determine a motor mount and battery shape standard. Almost every part can be swapped on non-ebikes. I don't want anything to do w an ebike until then.