The Strongest Smash Character in Every Archetype
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- čas přidán 30. 04. 2024
- Coney takes a leaf off of JMCroft's fighting game archetype idea and makes a Smash-centric version. Does Smash really have these archetypes or is Coney cooking too much with this one?
Watch the original video inspiration here:
• The Strongest Characte...
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Edited by Quinn: / quinnandwin
#coney #smashbros #nintendo - Hry
obsessed with the fact half of all smash characters in history fit into the loser archetype
To be fair half of all characters in history are bad
Melee Pichu my Loser King.
@@shadycat8898no because pichu isn't designed to do anything, roy ir the links are the losers of melee depending on how zonery they have to be
as a ZSS main, Loser Grappler Rushdown fits her perfectly
"Luigi is a Loser Luigi" is the most Luigi thing possible.
"The L stands for winner"
I think coney is a Clown Scammer hybrid character
you're about to be a Banned Loser
@@CONEYZZ Apologies great streamer
@@CONEYZZno no, you're also a zoner
@@CONEYZZYou definitely control chat like a puppet character
The “Loser” archetype makes far more sense than it has any reason to
I'm surprised he didn't put smash 4 shulk there
I think Loser could also be called Half-Baked, just character ideas that could work but don't. There's an upsetting amount of those in Smash...
Same with Jumplord
Lucario is the biggest loser imo. He literally wins by losing, and he also functions incorrectly
@@lancelee338 Holy shit Smash 4 Shulk could definitely be at the top of his own "Potential" arcehtype. Characters with a high theoretical power level, but obnoxiously hard execution, and optimal play is still only marginally better than just picking a top tier
Great thumbnail, Coney is the definition of the Scammer archetype
Kazuya being the Luigi of Luigi archetype and not Luigi both a true and HUH kind of statement.
Luigi walked so Kazuya could run
luigi not being the best at his own archetype is the most luigi thing of all time
Haven't watched the video and the first thing I thought when I saw Luigi was "luigi doesn't win this"
Luigi is the One-Shot archetype from GG Strive
Kazuya isn’t even a Luigi in his own game lmao
I'm really glad he just pulled out the fuckass extra 4 categories. This is why I can always trust Coney to deliver.
Nah fr I got so excited when I saw 4 more. Coney always gives the right amount
MORE TIERS MORE TIERS
MORE TIERS MORE TIERS
@@micahfurlow2624 SKELETONPLS MORE TIER SKELETONPLS MORE TIERS
Ngl, this list is a lot better than chat seemed to understand. They were looking at isolated elements or hyper-extremes of characters and games--Coney was looking for cohesive summaries of the archetypes and characters that were best rounded to fit them.
A lot of his chat is contrarian for contrarian's sake. Outside looking in it looks weird, but Coney's list made a lot of sense.
Smash Wannabe "Pros" are some of the most obnoxious egotistical and aggressive tantrum-throwing losers I've ever seen, and it's too bad they're such a significant part of the fanbase despite providing little more than autofellatio
Yeah, like having a grab does not make a character a grappler smh chat
I don't think chat plays other fighting games lol
@dashhunterx735 sure, but you take incineroar in other fighter and hes a grappler. FFS HE HAS GIEF BODY SPLAT AND LARIAT. stronger throws off of non command grab. arguably the best command grab in the game. he has big damaging close range normals to scare you with some decent pokes and a parry that conditions you not to mash so he can work his gameplan.... he is a grappler.
@@piggyman8432incin absolutely is a grappler, but he's not the series peak of the archetype
“Jumplord” & “Loser” are such good descriptors I am all for adapting them
What I love about videos like this is that everyone thinks Coney is just shitposting, but you can tell when someone doesn't know when they're talking about and are just saying something to rankle people up. Coney has examples and from what little competitive Smash I've watched, learned, and been involved with, his logic is consistent, it just sounds weird to someone on the outside. A lot of the examples people brought up were very basic or based on aesthetics, like how a lot of people wanted to suggest Incineroar for grappler just because he has a bunch of throws. Coney has a lot of experience and he's not afraid to say something that sounds weird if he genuinely believes it's true but will shoot down people who are just trying to be contrarian. Coney likes to rile people up and shoot them down, but he is speaking from an educated position. It's silly, but it all lines up. I think you'll learn a surprising amount from Coney if you assume a lot of what you think is just jokes is actual genuine knowledge.
IM TRYING TO HELP
This is really sweet but I must inform you that most people on the inside of smash, including those at top level and with years of experience, would tell you Incineroar is a grappler. People didn't say Incin because he has "a bunch of throws" - he literally only has one more throw than other characters. They said Incin because that throw is what his pressure revolves around, which is the core of a grappler. He is a bit of an outlier in Smash for being a grappler of normal size, but he still fits the archetype, just like Manon in SF6 is still obviously a grappler despite being normal size. Coney is just describing the traditional grappler, the Zangief archetype.
Coney did admit he was a grappler in the end. Still not the strongest grappler. Incin best fits the grappler archetype. He has a point with dedede though
@@mz-power9587 Yeah, maybe I misspoke a bit, it's not that Roar isn't a grappler it's that he's _certainly_ not the best one, but chat saw a bunch of grab moves and said "well clearly he's the best one because he's got all these throws". Speaking as someone who loves playing Roar, he is not anywhere near that good.
incin is absolutely a grappler but he's like a lower mid tier in his only game. there is no argument for the strongest of all time
Coney being in the scammer archetype is mad funny
Melee falcon over small mii brawler for a brawler is crazy
the answer is actually melee Falco no cap
@@Masaru_kunnaw hes rushdown zoner
Remember, this is a Coney stream on the Coney channel, mii's don't have rights.
@@five_6_seven_8 no way he doesn't rush down, he slows rush downs with his lasers lol. And he's def not a zoner, because he doesn't try to keep people zoned out, he uses his lasers to approach.
Miis have had zero competitive relevance stop bringing them up.
7:26 "And if you're not wobbling then you're doing some fuck ass pass off combo, which is more of a puppet thing."
13:15 "Brawl Ice Climbers are not a puppet character."
Yeah he meant melee ice climbers are a puppet. Also ult ice climbers
i wanna defend coney on the meta knight/bayo/steve thing, those characters are so much stronger than the rest of the cast and so flexible in what they can do that they do not fit into any archetype cleanly. they transcend catagorisation through sheer strength. Though brawl ics not being the grappler was crazy i cant defend him on that
The main thing I got from that is that he put “size” into account as well.
By this logic IC’s are too small. But ummm imo I think it is IC’s function wise
@@brendanpryde5639 He's taking the spirit of the original idea, which is that grapplers have to be big so they can take up space and put pressure to get a grab. But i think smash is so different that it warrants a different definition of just grab based characters. And ice climbers is *the* grab based character. I don't think he's wrong in his placement as much as he is wrong in how he defines a grappler in smash. It makes sense but i just dont agree
@@lt2660I think if he wanted that then the smart thing to do would’ve been to split grappler into “traditional grappler” and “Smash grappler,” or something along those lines. I find the way he’s defining the problem really interesting but ignoring the way people use “grappler” in Smash terms was a bit weird
@@lt2660 Coney didn't use this argument in the stream/vid, but imo Brawl DDD is more of a grappler ironically because of his projectiles and disjoints. They let him control lots of space and steadily move in on his opponents. That also moves Brawl DDD more to the zoner category but it is what it is.
My take is that MK and Bayo are Winners. They are losers in the sense that the role they may have been made to fill may not necessarily be accurate, but it's because they are good at fucking everything. Bayo and MK are Winners
honestly i feel like coney is spotting on this one. Also as soon I saw Luigi as a category my mind immediatly went "Kazuya Mishima"
I don’t know what the fuck any of this means
kazuya being put as best luigi in smash is the funniest shit i have seen today
If we're putting those last archetypes into traditional fighting games,
Jumplord: Hazama
Loser: SF4 Dee Jay
Pacifist: Taokaka
The Fantastic Spinning Surprise Killing Robot: Nagoriyuki
loser is sf6 jamie kinda
sf4 dee jay is ass but he’s just an all rounder
jamie is trash without drinks and has to spend time getting drinks instead of being good
Sol Badguy is definitely a Luigi
GGAC+R Bridget is the most pacifist it's ever been
THE NAGO EXAMPLE IS PHENOMINAL
puppet loser is strive zato
This stream was horrible, I loved it
When you hit us with that hidden 3rd row, then everything made sense. Loser as an archetype is mind blowing.
“Kazuya is the best Luigi ever”
This is the insight im subscribed for
It's funny how Steve fits into at least half of these archetypes. Including Loser arguably, he does not function how he's supposed to. With Bayo or MK, they feel like they were designed to be a certain way, but ended up being really overtuned. Steve feels like he was designed to be a certain way, but ended up being so overtuned in other areas that it overrided his original design
Haven’t watched the vid, but I assume the Luigi archetype is touch of death
Classic coney forgetting about the strongest heavy to ever exist; 3DS Bowser
Since Coney doesn't fuck with 64 like that the archetypes go something like this if I'm trying to stick to the Coney categories
Rushdown:
Pikachu
Zoner:
Fox (laser goes stupid in 64)
Link
Jumplord:
Kirby (also a swordfighter)
Jigglypuff
DJ Armour:
Yoshi
Luigi:
Captain Falcon (f throw up air up air up air up b)
DK
Loser:
Samus (charge shot the character, only character in the game with a bad combo game)
Brawler(read as gets walled out by half the cast):
Mario
Ness
Luigi
I like how this turned into Infinite Craft at the end XD, just creating characters from elements
he turned on little alchemy mode
I think the best characters of each game perfectly exemplify smash's lack of clearly defined character archetypes. The reason the best characters are so good is because they can kind of just do whatever they want. Brawl meta knight is fast, has a shitload of jumps, and can glide. And that makes him really strong offensively, but that also makes him really strong defensively, and he can just choose to disengage if he wants. Smash 4 bayo could try to fish for a zero-to-death, or she could just wait for you to come to her and just kill you off a witch time combo. And steve can just do whatever the fuck he wants at all times. Smash is weird because the best characters aren't just the best characters of a given archetype. They're the best because they don't fall into an archetype
And any characters that lean hard into archetypes struggle for it. Duck Hunt is like the purest example of a zoner in the series, and they're so much worse than the Pac-Mans and Min-Mins of the world
@@grunkleg.3110yeah kinda like how snake is a zoner but at the same time has a lot of tools (utilt ftilt) that can kill early when fighting up close.
Love that the Fantastic Spinning Surprise Killing Robot also includes Incineroar. That's just funny to me.
i think mario baseball is a swordfighter
for the "brawler" archtype I actually think melee Falco is the best example. He tries to slow down rushdowns like Fox and Falcon, so he can win scrambles close-up. He relies on mix-ups and can't really kill in one combo like a Luigi. His laser is a zoning tool, but he has to be close to actually get damage and kills.
Funny how ultimate rob could be all of these categories
I've followed Smash for years and I still don't know what the fuck to make of that tier list with like 15 characters in the Mario section. Little Mac being in the Jigglypuff section was the final nail in the coffin for my confusion. (Even if you’re saying Little Mac only stays in one place like Puff, then why the hell is Pichu there) What the FUCK is going on in that list!?
Anyway good video Coney. Glad to see one of my favorite content creators make another list that pisses off their community :)
Glass cannons
Either kill in one interaction or die
I think it's just glass cannon characters that shut out damage but then they die out of nowhere
The mario tier is mostly all around brawlers with great physics and strong combos. Jigglypuff tier is reserved for incredibly volatile characters who still use all/most of their kit (unlike the Luigi, who really only has the one thing they fish for) (or just say glass cannons, that works too).
@@4546BeanThere are like 20 other missing characters
This has unironically changed my perception of smash archetypes and I hope people define characters as these 12 categories or any combination of them going forward
Luigi not being the best Luigi is very on theme
Elizabeth from P4A is a Luigi
True
Sol badguy in strive is a luigi
@@treedude4246I dont think strive has ever had OHKOs, and you cant be luigi without them.
@@Ed-1749 Goldlewis would like to know your location
Hell yeah, I love Elizabeth
So makoto from street fighter 3 third strike is a Luigi by your definition of killing you on 1 interaction with a grab
"Melee Marth can't kill for shit" HUH
i love Coney’s stuff but there is a tremendous lack of Melee knowledge here lol
He's kinda right though, unless your Zain who knows how to hit pivot Fsmash confirms, you might struggle to kill.
The like and subscribe buttons have never once lit up at the end of a video lmao
The funniest part about Sonic being the best Pacifist is that it’s not necessarily antithetical to how he behaves in his home series. There’s some games and extra material where he’s just- Not really there to beat anyone up at all.
I think there's something so funny about defining different game iterations by "Melee X" or "Brawl X", because it leads us having long legitimate thoughts on the nature of characters being named as "Ultimate Wario" or "Brawl Pit". Like those are just silly names don't you think
1:15 I made it onto a Coney video. I have peaked
I want to see this done like Rockman's list where every character has to be sorted into one archetype.
I suppose one way to argue a characters status in an archetype is.....what happens if you take it away? If you take away chain grabs from Dedede he's dogshit, as he has been in 4 and Ult without any discernable identity outside of ledge trapping IF he hits you. At least Incineroar has Armoured moves and Revenge to allow him to get in and start smacking you.
BRO WHEN IT GOT TO BRAWLER I LITERALLY SAID OUT LOUD MELEE FALCON AND I WAS RIGHT
If only there was a common name for characters that kill you in one touch. Yknow, like, Touch of Death.
I feel like if we aren’t including olimar or iceies, then Rosalina is just the only puppet character, no? Like what’s the point of having puppet as a category when only Rosalina fits it?
"he who hold it, stolds it"
One of the best coney vids in years. Not only did I laugh out loud many times, but there’s genuine knowledge here
After seeing the smash marathon Coney did, I'm sure this will be well informed and have no biases
Edit:
Icies ≠ Cause it's a glitch and abuse of grab infinite
Inciniroar ≠ Cause he imposes a threat in an area of the screen that limits your choices (actual command grab btw)
DDD = Cause it's a glitch that abuses infinite grabs and imposes a threat to area of the screen(?)
13:06 Thanks editor, very cool footage :)
Nothing gives me more joy than looking at chat and seeing “more tiers”
Seph being swordie zoner loser is so incredibly accurate
As a Luigi player, Luigi is an archetype.
As an ex pro SF4 and Melee player here is mine for melee:
Rushdown: Fox, Falcon, Pikachu, Pichu and Luigi
Brawler: Doc, Mario, Kirby, G&W, Falco, Ganondorf and Bowser
Zoner: Samus, Link, Y. Link, Puff, Peach, Zelda
Grappler: Icies, DK, Sheik
Swordy: Marth, Roy
DJC: Yoshi, M2, Ness
This was entertaining. It’s so interesting how different platform fighters are from traditional fighting games. I loved how the chat went ballistic any time Coney opened his mouth.
Normally don't watch coney opinion pieces but his smash opinions are always fun to watch
I’ve never seen a more accurate thumbnail in my life
This list is like so incredibly accurate I was pleasantly surprised :) good job Coney! Only thing I’d change is maybe s4 sheik instead of melee falcon?
All I learned is that a Brawler is a Luigi you don't hate to loose against.
As much as I want to defend Brawl ICs being the best grappler, I'd argue that was more of a mistake in design than anything. As a person that plays grapplers in fighting games, no (normal) character makes you feel more tense about risking being grabbed than Brawl Dedede. He's also got some strong beefy buttons that feel like a grappler (utilt, bair, dtilt, fair).
The bonus categories cracked me up LMAO
13:06 shoutouts to the editor for pranking coney here. This got me good
16:45 Coney, what about how broken small mii brawler was in Sm4sh? He had the ridiculous up throw --> fair--> Up-b cheese that would kill DK at 30 near the ledge, as well as being stupid fast with a small hitbox.
“Fantastic spinning surprise killing robot”
I wonder who that could be
These are archetypes I've just never thought about probably cuz I don't play very many other fighting games besides Smash Bros. I mean I have played some soul caliber games and Tekken games and got familiar with a few of them. I barely played any Street fighter games despite the fact that I grew up in the '90s and I barely played any mortal Kombat games, but yeah I mostly just play Smash Bros and just love playing that so I wasn't too familiar with these archetypes but this was still a very interesting video to see all the way through
I love duck hunt, such a fun character to play casually. I think if I had to choose one for looser it has to be banjo, just because he feels SO weak!
The only take away I have from this stream is Smash players have no clue what any of these terms mean
being able to move around platform kinda just breaks down fgc archetypes
“Luigi” characters actually do have a term in fighting games. One-Shot characters, if I remember right. Makoto in 3rd Strike and Nagoriyuki (at least in past seasons) are examples.
Coney stole my MONEY!!!!
My favorite part is when he voice cracks at the end. 😂
Not doing melee marth for swordie kinda crazy tbh
Kazuya being the best Luigi archetype is the type of things only Coney would come up with and still make perfect sense.
i think a brawler in smash would be a character that doesn't just hold forward but also sits back and waits, there's the balance of aggressiveness and defense. i think they would also be characterized by their short stubby hitboxes similar to rushdowns, but would have projectiles to help maintain their mid-range combat, but bad at full on zoning/rushdown. thats why i think the best brawler would be minecraft ste--(is killed off screen)
“melee marth can’t kill” and “everyone in 64 kills off one hit!” are the surface level take i had when i was 14 and read r/smashbros for the first time. also no brawl/melee ice climbers under luigi is wild when the reasoning is you know what they’re going for, and stay on platforms to avoid it.
17:56 Ahh guilty Gear xx Bridget is a jump lord.
as a fantastic spinning surprise killing robot main, he is every archetype, literally all of them
Honestly a Loser tier list would go kinda hard. Amass a bunch of low tier fighters throughout Smash's history and rank them based on how much of a Loser they are (characters like Melee Kirby / Pichu were pretty explicitly designed to be bad while someone like Melee Roy was not). Some high tier Loser could include characters like Sm4sh Shulk, Banjo, Belmonts, Ultimate Marth, Melee G&W, and Sm4sh Pac-Man
i think if Rosalina is the only one who fits the puppet archtype, than it's not an archtype in the first place she's just a subclass of zoner
also to me brawler feels like someone with a relatively balanced kit, like Mario, Wolf, maybe Pit and Lucario. like they have a few reliable ways to rack up damage off a grab or simple combos, maybe a decent kill confirm or a strong kill move off a read, but they aren't extremely in your face or combo-heavy
"There is no other game that has a Jumplord!"
There's a certain Stand-having bird that may disagree with you there...
can we put jigglypuff in the surprise spinning death robot category since her neutral b is a spin
So…Kirby…and his feet…is a sword fighter!?
The 4 extra categories had me dying 😂
3:56 heyyyyy, counterpoint, I’m watching this on my break at my job
I got an ad at 19:24 and thought Coney had the strongest bit of all time by just ending the video after revealing the character was Rob
Someone in chat was cooking by saying 3rd Strike Makoto is a Luigi.
Smash Sundays into Marketing Mondays would go hard.
Loved the marketing monday for unemployed people joke lol
If I might make a suggestion to a name change, I think instead of having heavy or brawler it makes more sense to have one of the categories 'spacer/space taker'. I believe this fits everyone you would put in the heavy category, essentially a character that aims to stand in the middle of the stage and never let you in. In my mind it makes more sense but I understand that we all are going to measure characters differently
I think Smash Bros. should have an archetype for characters like Steve, Snake, Isabelle, Pacman, etc. that are zoners which specifically play around stage hazards.
For other Puppets, I think modern Ice Climbers is fair enough, and Zelda relies on Phantom enough to count her. Not many, though.
And tbh, there can be a Weird Hitbox Knowledge Check category too while we're at it. Any usually low tier that only has the win condition of you being deeply confused by the matchup.
I thought this video kinda sucked until the twist at the end. W
Also, Coney is mega biased. He just wanted to include his brawl main
This video is so funny because its genuinely accurate in ways it doesn't deserve to be (and a friendly reminder as to why its so hard for me to find characters i like in platform fighters other than marth (especially 4/ult), smash 4/ult falco, and multiversus harley. (note: if not for l-cancelling, melee would be my favorite smash game mechanically, which makes this whole situation so much worse))
Nana, or Popo depending on costume, is just following the main Ice Climber and basically copy the moves. Lot like "controlling 2 characters at the same time" scenarios. Olimar's Pikmins is more of ammunition than anything in some ways. So, Rosalina & Luma being a puppet type just makes the most sense.
That tier list near the beginning is so confusing and yet so accurate. There are some I disagree with but I'm not gonna sit here and deny that Squirtle's a Mario.
Also get the Ice Climbers not being a puppet fighter. There's elements of them and the climber you aren't controlling might as well have the brain of a puppet but I don't think they're there quite yet.
I forgot Ridley existed until the very end
I think it should have been:
Rushdown: Melee Fox
Zoner: Ult Snake
Grappler: Brawl Icies
Brawler: 64 Falcon
Heavy: Ult Bowser
Swordy: Smash4 Cloud
Puppet: Smash4 Rosa
Best Shoto: Terry
u can tell coney know a character when he actually talks about them , bro just put melee fox for rushdown and said good enough
Holy shit.... Mac really is just grounded Puff
This some insane Ice Climbers erasure I'm seeing. They could be considered the best grappler, best puppet and best luigi all at the same time.
Its crazy cause when I was going through the original 8 categories in my head I had legit all the same picks
(Excluding Falcon in brawler cause truthfully that catagory kinda blows it could be anything)
18:24 was that a Kung Pow reference
*family feud starts* *coney has evolved to BALD archetype*