Pacifica: Disney's Obsession With Redeeming Rich Girls
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Bruh no one gonna fall for this 💀
I hope your throat feels better :) thank you for making a video, even if you're sick. I love your videos. I have severe depression so watching your videos helps me get by :) I appreciate your hard work, man!
Fun Fact: Anne Boonchuy is based on Pacifica Northwest and Matt Braly’s grandmother
So let’s look at the Gravity Falls ships we’ve covered so far.
Robbry, Wendip, Dipcifica,…
By logical conclusion, the next one will be Pinecest (Dipper x Mabel)
She wasn't exactly "redeemed". She was developed. And that was enough for me, especially with her getting closer to dipper in the episode
Yeah, plus then we got some wholesome moments with her in the comics. That was sweet too
Uh.. English is my second language and it's hard to understand particular words sometimes.. what does it mean that a character is "redeemed"? I know the word redeem but I don't kinda get it in this context.. please help😖😖
@@mikesvetlov6374 that usually means that their personality became better (healthier, less egotistical or toxic)
@@mikesvetlov6374 it’s basically when a character is a terrible person and does awful things, and then that character realizes what they’re a bad person, stops doing bad things and changes for the better.
@@finnhyasebee889 oh, thank you!
If I had a nickel for everytime Disney redeemed a blonde rich girl I have a shit ton of nickels
It'd be twice.. Which isn't a lot, but it goes to show the variety in hair colours for these rich girl redemptions.
Name me more than 2 examples, Doof. These are very specific criteria.
What about brunettes? London Tipton might have been one of the best of them
@@gameb9oy Amity's an auburn-brunette, which may also count.
The only rich girl not changed is Chloe bourgeois as of right now
I know that this are just fictional characters, but i still see them as just little girls. I dont see it as "redemption", i see it as learning experiences for a child.
That's what I'm thinking lol. It's one thing if we're talking about grown adult characters but they're kids, they are a reflection of their homelife that's how kids work.
True, I sometimes forget that these kids are either in their last year of elementary school, or their first year of middle school.
Ikr. I would say that most kids are mean as hell before they learn that words and actions hurt others. But kids learn and grow up and eventually stop being like that. Mostly.
I’m seeing a lot of comments that say she wasn’t “redeemed” so much as she simply had a good growth arc. And I completely agree. We only see her for a few episodes but it’s just enough to see her knocked down a couple pegs, realize that her family does actually suck, and have her situation explained. It humanized her instead of making her just the Pretty Rich Mean Girl Punching Bag. There’s just enough to show you there’s more to her than the surface level mean girl trope. Enough to make me cry every single time she doesn’t cave at the end of the ghost episode and pulls the lever. To me that’s one of the most powerful moments in the series, because Pavlovian conditioning like that isn’t an easy thing to disobey. And one of my favorite things about it is that we don’t see her personality do a complete 180° afterward. Idk if anyone has read the Lost Legends comics, but the one that focuses on her and her family problems and her going to Dipper for help really shows that while she’s definitely done some personal work, she also isn’t completely Cured™️ of her family trauma and the way it’s shaped her personality. It’s not a matter of like, her being Bad Pacifica before the ghost hunt and Good Pacifica afterward. She’s still herself, she’s just started that growth process. And I love that about her.
Plus, the story in the lost legends does even more development ( Also the president key actually did something or whatever)
If gravity falls had a season three or four before they ended the show I and 100% sure these two would have dated and she probably would have become one of Mabel’s greatest friends dew to her being at their house very often to hang out with dipper, who knows we could have even gotten and episodes or two of them actually going on a date. It would have impacted the ending even more, they could also give more development to the people who need to stand on the symbols
Agree, it's not full fledged redemption arc but it's step in right direction.And we have start from somewhere
Pavlov actually didn't have anything to do with the whole bell ringing thing. He put holes in dogs' esophaguses and "fed" them while measuring their levels of stomach acid.
@@Flugel_Pendragon mabel would be so happy about pacifica being her "sister" 🥰
Pacifica doesn't need to be redeemed she is a 12-year-old whose only crime is being a mean entitled rich girl. She needs friends and family who will love her and help her learn right from wrong. Pacifica should still expect consequences for her behavior and apologize for her actions but 12 is not an age where I think someone needs to be held completely accountable for their actions especially when their actions aren't that severe.
THIS ^^^
Um, what? Since when is being 12 years old too young to be held accountable for your actions? Pacifica was fully aware that she treated Mabel and her friends like garbage, and absolutely owes them an apology.
@@midnalazuli793 Its not that 12 is too young to be held accountable, but you need to be more forgiving to a 12 year old because they are still in that stage where they are learning a lot about life and may not fully understand exactly how bad the things they are doing actually are.
Sure, she knows she treated them like garbage, but does she know how actually bad that made them feel or did she understand that they really are just human like her and not some lesser people or whatever?
This type of thing happens a lot to children who are brought up in this type of environment where they are told they are better than others. They never really think about it and just accept it as truth. But once these people have a period of reflection they often see how horrible their actions they took for granted really were and it shifts their worldview.
They should receive some leeway for forgiveness because indoctrination is INCREDIBLY hard to break free from. When youve been told something your entire life before your brain was even fully developed, its extremely hard to break out of that. Especially when you're still a child and very dependent on grown ups around you.
So yea, 12 isnt too young to be be held accountable for their actions, BUT, they also should be treated wit more leeway for forgiveness. They should be given more chances to change and grow if they show desire to do so. You shouldnt treat a bad thing a 12 year old did the same way you treat a 30 year old doing it. They dont have the same level of life experience, introspection, and understanding that a 30 year old does. Theyre still learning and developing. Thats why kids arent given the right to choose many important things about their life, because at that young of an age, they still dont understand well enough to confidently make really important decisions like that most of the time.
What about Diamond Tiara.
@@midnalazuli793 Tell that to Mabel fans who excuse all the selfish things she did because she is only 12 years old so not her fault.
I really like them because they bring out the best in each other. Dipper is confident and funny and Pacifica is more introspectiv. It is a great prospect for a few years later if both can grow as people.
The dynamic between them was really fun to watch, I wish there were more episodes to explore their relationship (not necessarily a romantic relationship).
That's the only reason why I wish Gravity falls had a third season.
@@valentinkambushev4968 I agree, Gravity Falls really needed at least one more season, mainly to develop better Ford and little more Pacifica.
@@gabrielmendonca6853 yeah I wish for that too. But I understand why there isn't season three. This is not an Owl house situation where the network cuts you short. Season one was very hard for Alex to make and he decided that he didn't want to put himself through it two more times. But hey, I have plenty of fanfics and fan art to fill the gap.
@@valentinkambushev4968 Yes, at least his situation is understandable. But it's not like we can't criticize the end result. You're not wrong that we still have fanfics, but it's rare to find a good one.
I will say that redemption arcs are hard, having the character to be redeemed be a child from overbearing/abusive parents is more believable than any of the redemptions that have been for actual villain characters with massive bodycounts.
Is there a particular reason they need an arc for it? Like, can't they just try to be better without having to suffer trauma?
@@KevinACarroll1996 character arc does not equals trauma
@@KevinACarroll1996 No, they don't need trauma and not every story does that, but it gives them immediate sympathy points while making perfect sense (living in a family of jerks would easily influence them.) They do need an arc though... Even if they're just a bully who no one else can stand up to, not even their sweet parents, they'd need enough time to show how they bully others, show the dawning realization that what the bully is doing isn't good, have the bully come to terms with this and decide to change, then hopefully show them struggling a bit as they find their way and make up for the past. It doesn't have to take a long time but spreading it out over several episodes or the span of a movie allows for the story to feel more natural than if it happened in 5 minutes (and it would take a really good storyteller to do this in 5 minutes but it's possible.)
Also in this case trauma makes sense because it’s shown in the mini golf episode before that preston and his wife don’t actually care about pacifica, and on top of that preston is just an ass in general so it makes sense he would treat pacifica badly
@@KevinACarroll1996 Simply believability. It gets easier to understand why a person has changed when it is clear that they knew what the issue was. In reality, we often don't see this, but stories have no reason not to include something like that, unless they purposefully want to tie the perspective to the main character directly.
Yeah, Disney does indeed have a habit of trying to redeem rich antagonistic characters. especially if they are female characters, but they just had to face it that some of them did have redeeming qualities and some of them didn't.
I wish Chloe from miraculous also got something like that
@@meowmeow8457 She did but then the original writer came along and ruined it.
I mean, the writers of many of these shows actively hate disney. Amity's story is actively anti-capitalist (and gay), Pacifica was the first major one, from alex hirsch himself. So... Yeah.
I think it's simply because a spoiled rich girl is easy to dislike but at the end of the day if she's a child, there's a lot to consider where her behaviour may he a result of poor parenting and/or her parents just being bad people in general.
Oh yeah tell me about it! Like Maleficent and Cruella De Vil! Like what the fuck with the latter, her name literally means cuel Devil and yet I know how they explained the origin to her name on her film! Like what's next? An origin movie to Cinderella step mother???
I think people like Pacifica because she admits her mistakes and takes steps to improve herself. She takes control of her own bias and what she can control, and chooses to be better. By the end of Gravity Falls, she's still not a "Good Person" per say... but she's getting better. If the show had some more time and maybe a sequel series, I hope we would have seen her evolve more. But as is... I like where her character went. There's hope for her yet.
Also she and Dipper did have quite good chemistry. They are the type to call each other out and make each other better through tough conversations, blunt truths, and also... just enjoying breaking rules and getting dirty together (like, covered in mud and stuff. They're kids bro.).
By the end of the series and comic, they are no where NEAR ready for dating, but they are both ready to get to know one another...also enemies to lovers is fun!
Yeah, they just did the whole enemies to lovers thing with Luz and Amity, much better than I think the whole Dipcifica thing would have turned out. Namely cos we got to know Amity as a person much sooner, she wasn't a complete jerk the whole time, and became a lot more self aware a lot sooner as well.
@@tristanemery8748 I just pray Amity doesn't become the next "Zuko redemption" as in people in the far future are going to be spoiled and paint that this specific character's style of development as the next high standard that people will be comparing other mean characters journey towards in the far future. In that case scenario I will begin to actively hate it.
In all Honesty we've people can act spoiled when it comes to redemption arcs cause Zuko's was the most iconic one in animation history, and Now years from now Amity's development could probably be treated the same way.
@@toadlord8594 Yeah, I kinda hope that people look back and appreciate her development, but don't hold it in such high esteem as Zuko. He had possibly the best redemption arc in all of animation, as you said. Whereas Amity's, while well executed, was not on the same level as our second favourite "bad-but-sad boy" (sorry, I just prefer hunter lol)
@@tristanemery8748 Yeah i just LOVE Hunter and his evolution throughout the 2nd season was honestly really well done, even more than Amity's in my opinion. He just steals the show for me whenever he's on screen, especially when paired with Luz, Hollow Mind remains as my 2nd favorite episode in the series.
Side note: I personally am more a fan of Sasha's development in Amphibia the best than Amity cause to me Sasha's character development felt more...raw and deeper than Amity in my eyes.
Yes I agree
I don't think Anastasia gets progressively prettier? She has the same design all the way through. It's probably just that she starts genuinely smiling. I just think it's important to acknowledge that a kinder personality and expression can make someone look 'prettier' both in animation and real life.
I'd say it comes down to the animation quality. There's a MAJOR leap in quality between 1950's and 2000's animation.
I don't feel comfortable saying it's because of new animation or because they wanted to make it prettier but at the very least in the sequels keep this slightly less disproportionately gangly
@@noremac7216 I think it also comes through the expressions. Anastasia in the OG Cinderella had really exaggerating facial expressions (as did Drusilla). Lines that extended around her mouth and nose, especially, making smiles into grimacing sneers. In the sequels the designs look a bit smoother and her expressions are cleaner and less mean-looking all around. It does make her a bit prettier, imo, but they didn't overhaul her design by any means.
IDK, at one point Cinderella literally just pushes her cheeks in so she looks better (it's an incredibly visual thing, and hard to explain in words) and then I guess she just flexes her face like that for the rest of the movie? It's a very slight change, but it is a noticeable one.
She also changes her hair style in movie two to a more flattering style.
Don't forget the original Rich-Bully-Turned-Good-Guy for the Disney franchise: Emperor Kuzco. He's actually the real first character to do this in all of Disney's history. Everyone cites Zuko but forgets Kuzco. Also, let's ignore The Emperor's New School because it already was stated to not really be canon, anyway.
I mean, do we even have to ignore it anyways? Both the movie and the show deal with the same idea that he isn't a perfect person and never will be, but he's still human. Able to learn and eventually grow up, even if he initially does not recognize his own capabilities or that he sometimes needs a vibe check.
Everyone talks about Zuko more because in terms of development the two characters received, Zuko had his far more compared to Kuzco since ATLA is a 3-season series and The Emperor's New Groove is a 90 minute movie.
Kuzco's arc was focused on him going through a journey of humility for being an entitled asshole his whole life. Meanwhile Zuko's redemption arc is one filled with more depth, with him realizing that appeasing his abusive father doesn't fulfill him and discovers who he truly wants to be and realizing that he
In short, you could say that Kuzco walked so Zuko could run.
I think the appeal of Dipper with Pacifica speaks to a reaction against the pre-determined love scenario and more to something closer to real life: someone whom you might consider a random person in your life eventually turns out to be compatible with you romantically, and none of it was planned. Like in a lot of fan-preferred couples like Danny Phantom and Valerie Grey or Zuko and Katara, it's all about something you did not expect, and it turns out all the more beautifully. Reminds me of this quote from Helga back in that Valetine's episode of Hey Arnold: "Maybe the girl for you is someone you didn't expect. After all, the most beautiful gift can come in the plainest box."
Wow, this actually might explain why I tend to ship primary protagonists with "secondary" characters and why I kinda roll my eyes whenever the "main couple" get together.
That's a really interesting take.
@@Takejiro24 I actually don't mind the "main ship getting together" trope, if the main pair is likable and if they have good chemistry ( and if they are close in age ) then I would ship it.
I also don't mind shipping main characters and secondary characters, because in some cases they do work better than the main ship
@@Takejiro24 A lot of love interests are written poorly because they're treated as a love interest first and a character second so it feels less organic.
Zutara is overrated. Kataang is WAY better, in my opinion. I am prepared for the inevitable _shitstorm_ of sad, _whiny, entitled BRATS_ of Zutara shippers toxically hating on me that will inevitably follow me posting this comment. Please do note Zutara shippers, though, that I don't give a single flying _fuck._ 😈.
"Those Cinderella sequels no one watched" I won't stand for Cinderella 3 slander!
ngl those movies plots were way more good than I expected. It felt like they actually kinda cared.
Alright, you two and Sarcastic Chorus have convinced me to watch the sequels.
@@Takejiro24 only the third one got it?
I watched Cinderella 3 rather than the first one RELIGIOUSLY as a young girl.
@@roxanne_ same, i will die on the hill of cinderella sequels
I don’t think it’s fair to say that Pacifica was just redeemed because she has trauma
Firstly because she didn’t really do anything wrong, her greatest crime is being kind of a bitch but how many teens is that true for? And secondly because they show the humanity of her and that she’s just a product of her environment who is willing to grow and change before the episode where the ship is introduced
A person doesn't need to do crime to be redeemed.
@@DeathKitta A person also doesn't need to have trauma to be redeemed
@@user-wn3wv5bx5e that’s why Sasha is the best
@@user-wn3wv5bx5e Yeah I didn't argue with this part! A person can be redeemed even if they don't have trauma. A person can not be redeemed even if they have trauma.
yeah, I literally had to stop watching the video because there's no point. That base assumption is just a stupid oversimplification of writing a character. Like bro, her redemption isn't just "because she has trauma". Her trauma is the catalyst of her poor behaviors because her poor behaviors are born from her shitty upbringing. Her upbringing/trauma EXPLAINS her behaviors. Her "redemption"(if you can call it that) is called character development. Like a 12yo isn't in the starting end of puberty and it's totally feasible for her to grow as a person over the course of a story. And I wouldn't even say she was redeemed, she improved and is trying to be better.
Tbh Pacifica is HOW entitlment works...people aren't BORN snobbish or entitled or bad. It's how they're raised makes what they eventually can become...like example...enabling parents who for many reasons do not give child any consequences. Parents who cover up their children's lies and bad behaviour(to save face very often) and thus teach them anything goes. And unless those people have others around them or later in life decide to change bc they finally see the error of their ways...they are at high risk of becoming entitled, spoiled and cruel to others. Pacifica was lucky enough to interact with Dipper and Mabel and others and have someone in her life call her out. also what makes people forgive her more is that...she's still a child. She's not the bully or villian who USED to have a bad childhood but is now full grown adult who is responsible for their own choices and CAN go to therapy themsevles and change. She's a child, that still lives with her parents and doesn't have anywhere else to go. She's essentially TRAPPED in an abusive enviorment.
“isn’t this cheating?”
“Pacifica is rich Mable, she’s cheating in LIFE.”
-Dipper *insert year*
Quick edit: 2010 is the year thank you to the person In the replies.
That was 12 years ago.
@@bettycharms thank you then.
Glad I’m not the only one sick and tired of ppl using Zuko’s arc as the “baseline” of redemption arcs. Every writer/show creator’s gonna do redemptions differently, and it’s possible to love/admire more than one arc across multiple shows.
Here’s the one thing they all miss out; Zuko was never fully evil. It was more of a story about how he didn’t need to regain his honour because he was the one of the only people in the fire nation who had it. Season 2 is him seeing the extent of the damage the 100 years war his family perpetuated has done to the world and that, whilst he didn’t start the fire, he needs to put it out. Frankly, most of his crimes were following orders and fighting the main characters.
And that’s two problems with villains like Baron Draxum, the Diamonds and Kylo Ren. They are the ones who started and perpetuated the fires, they rarely ever choose to do better and, whilst they are very personal villains to the heroes, they’re also big to others outside the main cast.
I know that’s a weird one but the main characters forgiving/putting up with the villains whilst people outside the inner circle still suffer is rather nasty.
@@christopherbennett5858 Let's also add to the fact that we frequently see sparks of goodness in Zuko even in the earlier seasons that let us know he's better than is initially shown. His father and sister are comically evil. Azula is crazy and takes delight in watching others suffer. We see how she treats even her own best friends. Before we ever see Ozai we know he's bad news, this is a man who intentionally left a burn mark on his own son's face and sent him as far away as possible on a mission he never thought he was going to succeed. Everyone thought the avatar was gone, this was him telling Zuko "Just die already".
But even in his first introduction we see that Zuko wasn't sadistic. Once he had Aang he agreed to leave the Water tribe alone, he didn't start a massacre, he just wanted the avatar and nothing more. He apologized to his crew members for taking them for granted and he would occasionally get annoyed with his uncle but would go out of his way to save him by himself. Zuko started as a jerk but he wasn't evil.
In an episode featuring an axe stuck on a ghost's skull and blood dripping from stuffed animal heads' mouths, the bell used to rein Pacifica in whenever she gets "out of line" comes off as the creepiest element around.
Watching an action that was meant for dogs used on a child by her own parents is Fridge Horror at its finest.
I’d say Pacifica works because she makes a couple of things more interesting. Dipper’s love arc becomes interesting with the idea of him getting with someone he both didn’t think he could get and didn’t think he would want and Pacifica’s rivalry with Mabel becomes more interesting with the idea of them becoming sisters-in-law. Not to mention redeemed Pacifica comes off as more useful narratively than irredeemable Pacifica.
I don't think it's just an issue with Disney, but with fandoms and writing in general, So many stories paint out rich brats as kids who went through trauma, when really that's not entirely true. Sometimes they're just rich brats because their parents let them do whatever they want, whenever they want. Also, fandoms seem to really be okay with saying someone's redeemed just because we see that they went through trauma despite all the bad things they've done. (Wanda, Draco, Snape etc.)
Especially when those characters are white. They wouldn't treat those characters the same if they weren't
@@millsgurl8358 what does this have to do with anything.
@@valentinkambushev4968 because it’s true
@@valentinkambushev4968 a lot 😂
Well they are and they aren't my mom taught high school and what she saw was Ritch brats were allowed to do what they wanted but their parents were emotionally neglectful didn't know anything about what their kids were up to so it's usually a need for attention,no boundaries introduced. Some of that can lead to trauma and the really ritch kids sometimes especially the boys really do have these crushing expectations to take over the family legacy accompanied by an arranged marriage like the ex of someone I knew.
I feel like bringing up Emperor's New Groove into this topic.
Kuzco was the embodiment of mean rich kid who gets redeemed in the end. But he didn't need any sad childhood backstory to achieve said redemption. He was just an entitled brat who got kicked out of his pedestal and for the first time in his life had to feel as powerless as those he considered beneath him, so he decided to learn to be more down to earth and appreciate humility
Any semblance of tragic backstory is deemed irrelevant to the plot of the movie due to it being a comedy and is only indireclty shown so one can watch the movie without ever really having to think about it (the whole having no family and the implication no one really cared enough about him to teach him right or wrong before meeting Pacha and stuff)
I feel as though it is less invalidity and moreso "not an excuse, because it is the issue". There was no one to tell him to back off, because he was the one to tell other people that. Sometimes someone just needs a slap in the face to get it.
Its funny because Pacifica is what made me realized I was a bad person when I was younger. I was a bully, I was self centered, and I hurt people just because I was hurt. Of course I didn't realize it, but when I watching Gravity Falls and saw how they showed Pacifica's home life. I realized how similar we were and it made me realize that I wasn't a good person... and that my parents weren't exactly being the best of parents. But she also showed me that it was possible to change and be better. It's why the redeeming the rich girl trope is my favorite! It's because I kind lived through that trope.
To be fair,i think all the redemption storylines are half subverting the mean girl trope , and half a refusal to dismiss children as rotten and unable to get better and point out that most of their bad behavior is due to poor parenting
With Cinderella:
When narcissists lose their scapegoat, they find a new one.
Anastasia.
Honestly given the stepmother in the grimms version pressured her own daughters to cut their own feet. I'm not so sure Cinderella was the only badly treated one.
I just wish that we got to see more of Pacifica after the Northwest episode. She was starting to get really interesting, then she was basically ignored until some scenes in weirdmaggedon.
tbh, my favorite redemption arc isn't zuko's, but peridot's. it's short yet effective, and you can clearly tell the reasoning behind her change.
Part of why Pacifica works as a character is a few reasons
1. While she was antagonistic, outside of being stereotypically mean and rude to people, she never did anything especially harmful and as we see later in the Northwest Manor Mystery, is genuinely horrified at not only the things her own Father does but the terrible things her ancestors did to get to where they are
2. Her redemption isn't immediate, it takes time, first she's abrasive and rude, then as Dipper and Mabel get to know her during the Mini Golf episode they see she is capable of being humble and cooperative. And then later during the Manor episode when Pacifica is given the choice to either help Dipper and save people or simply take the easy route with her family, she takes the high ground and makes the right choice.
3. Part of the reason people like her with Dipper is because they work well off each other. Dipper isn't easily impressed by wealth or material possessions, thus she can't bribe or buy him out and she's so blunt and honest she'll say to his face when he's doing something stupid. They work well together and have legit chemsitry...also they are the same age so it doesn't raise red flags like Wendy would.
4. The Trauma itself wasn't the redemption itself, the Mini Golf episode showed she had good qualities, the Trauma episode just helped explain both why she acted so hostile in the past and also why she might be willing to act differently compared to her parents, because that behavior was essentially forced on her.
The reason it’s ok to see her as redeemed is because she’s heavily implied to be breaking a cycle. She literally stops the bullshit her family have held in place for years and wants to change, be herself, be a kid and go against the toxic everything her parents are and represent.
We never see her past this point in her life really, but in Weirdmageddon she opposes the Sal her dad tries to make with Bill, which is at least something. She’s taking strides and getting out of that abusive and toxic mindset her parents gave her
Chloe from Miraculous is another current example (although not from disney) her slow transition from minor antagonistic to side protagonist has been so enjoyable to watch. They truly took the time to teach her, not one, but several hard lessons about the consequences of treating others horribly.
Eh I'd say it's from Disney now, given they have a hand in producing the show.
Also, y'know, them seemingly taking that transition and then 180-ing it again, although we'll have to see what happens post-Astruc working on the show.
Ah man this hurts to read
And yet, if it wasn't for Asstruc's hate boner for a fictional character that he created that led him to deliberately destroy Chloe's development, she'd could've been the best written side character on the show.
I wouldn't count Chloe considering they decided to IMMEDIATELY nerf her
Well, I would even say that Chloe oscillating between petty, likable and borderline villainous makes her kinda feel more realistic.
Although we all know it's (unsurprisingly) just bad writing and failed attempt to downplay a cliche
I hate how she stopped existing after she was developed. MLP did the same thing with Diamond Tiara. We never get see redeemed bullies just being casual reoccurring characters.
For DT: it was fault of Hasbro. The writers DID plan a couple of episodes for her post-redemption, but Hasbro denied them.
@@grayfox4819 Which is annoying because I wish Silver Spoon would've finally evolved into her own character but this just didn't happen...
@@grayfox4819 For real? I had no idea...
Amity was a redeemed bully who was just a casual reoccurring character until several episodes into season 2 when she became more of a main character
I mean, does it have to be a character who actually matters?
When The Ghost and Molly Mcgee did this with Andrea, I was threw with this trope. I like Andrea as a character since she's not overly mean and didn't made it her life goal to hurt the main character, but the show didn't has to really redeem her. Esphecially considering since some of the fans forgot she basically made Libby an about cast for a portion of her school life and basically doing the same for Molly( Didn't help that the show play it for laughs)
The difference is the ghost and Molly McGee is a comedy. The other three shows though still having jokes are more about plot and story.
Is Andrea actually that rich
@@AppleCinderr They didn't keep her as a villain because Bill acknowledged that Andrea being a simple antagonist is boring and he's absolutely right to have that mindset, one note Queen Bees like Chloe from Miraculous are static and only exists to prop up the Protagonist instead of having any real agency except for how they oppose the protagonist.
@@killamanjaro53 Yeah, but at least Chloe _almost_ got to be more. Too bad
@@47ratsinahoodie Yeah it sucked because she had potential but then they discarded it, and now she's just there now antagonizing the heroes and there's no need to pay attention to her because there's nothing to go and do with her.
Monster High did this with Cleo De Nile, back in the early 2010's. Mean rich girl, brat around the school. Then you meet her sister and dad who basically verbally abuse her on the daily and tell her she's garbage.
Jeez, this trope more overdone than I thought.
It's sad that pacifica development didn't fully happen because they had to introduce ford and make him a main character for the shows end, so ep with her got cancelled and she even was supposed to be in roadside attraction would've made the plot different. They did somewhat carry on the development in lost legends face off
Wait What, Pacifica was supposed to be in Roadside Attraction?
And, what is this cancelled Pacifica Episode?
@@Watanabe347 I wish we got to see Pacifica in Roadside Attractions, that would be awesome
Not surprised that Disney loves proving that rich people can be good.
Oof.
Took me a second to catch that shade. ☠
Disney be like: #notalltherich
Tbh I thought that's where this video was gonna go. I let it slide cause it's children.
@@LangkeeLongkee Yeah especially since Gravity Falls in particular just oozes #EatTheRich rhetoric.
Rich people are not evil. They are lucky
I love how Matt Braly (unapologetic Pacifica fan that he is) used her brief but effective character arc as the foundation for Anne's development throughout _Amphibia._ Many will argue that Sasha is the Pacifica of that show (which she does share some similarities with besides the blonde hair) but her manipulative tendencies and need to control the direction of her friendships make her more akin to Preston Northwest and his abusive means of controlling his daughter and everyone he views as beneath him.
Anne, despite coming from a more loving home life and not being as antagonistic, shares more of Pacifica's unhealthy traits early in the series. She's selfish, argumentative against others who challenge her beliefs, heavily resistant to change, and very submissive to those she views as above her. Just as "Northwest Mansion Mystery" rocked Pacifica's world views, _Amphibia_ did the same for Anne with far more depth. Stripped of her old comforts and securities, she begins actively steering her life to become a version of herself that she can look in the mirror and love what she's become. Sometimes that involved being emotionally vulnerable and open to supporting others' dreams, sometimes it meant taking a stand against a friend when its clear they didn't have her well-being in mind.
While it may be fan speculation (as well as a big part of most great _Gravity Falls_ fanfics and art pieces) Pacifica's future character growth likely would have similarities with Anne's journey. By the end of season two her family had lost most of their wealth and status, but she was still happy to attend Dipper and Mabel's birthday parties with gifts she knew held personal value to them. Its easy to imagine this trend gradually continuing with her branching out to others outside her parents' control and working to distance herself further from her family legacy.
That, and given the Caesar Cipher in "Wax Museum," probably growing so close to Dipper that she ends up marrying into the Pines family. Because Matt Braly is truly the patron saint of r/Dipcifica.
Afmzfcfzx 4 ivcb!
Pacifica: can I pay you to pretend that didn't happen?
The internet: no, I don't think u can
16:10 maybe because deep down we all wish our childhood bullies realised how terrible people they were, stopped being terrible people, made amends and sought forgiveness from the people they hurt?
Just world fallacy.
Although she's not Disney but instead Cartoon Network, Kimmy from 2010's Sym-bionic Titan is also a pretty interesting example of this trope as well. She was the mean girl head cheerleader trope we all know to hell and back, but through the small amount of episodes of the show we did get, she was earned enough depth and insight to make her one of the best characters of the show. We got to see how she views HERSELF through the trope she lives through and that she genuinely falls for "a nerd" that believes 100% she can be more than what people expect her to be. She's not the most revolutionary character to do this sort of trope, but she's always the first example I can think of for it (and it sucks she's only ever going to be remembered on the internet for that one dancing scene).
Bro I miss that cartoon bad
A good show that was cut short, I swear CN has something against giant robot cartoons... And I agree 100% on regards to Kimmy, really loved how she went from a generic by-the-numbers mean girl seen a thousand times, to a real person wanting to better herself. It saddens me how she's never brought up in conversations aside from the infamous twerk scene.
you don't understand how much i appreciate this video. i have had numerous people in my mentions defending rich white girls for being horrible people. im over.
What does being white have to do with anything?
@@valentinkambushev4968 white favoritism is a guiding reason why fandom is drawn to characters like Pacifica.
@@valentinkambushev4968 have you seen the numerous examples?
@@xxmemestar69xx82 I don't know why you are complaining. Yes, most rich girls are white, but this means that their rich WHITE parents are torturing them. Aren't you happy that rich white people are presented as monsters. Besides they can't make people of color bad because everyone would say it's racism.
@@valentinkambushev4968 lmao you’re one of those people. You don’t even merit an actual response from me 😂
Everyone always pointing out amity, Pacifica, and Sasha for this trope, but no one gives respect to the og QUEEN Heather for starting this trope and arguably doing it the best.
If I am being honest, Dipper and Pacifica being shipped together may have been due to the one episode in Northwest manor, but their relationship is partially because of Mabel's rivalry with Pacifica, which was shown from time to time in season 1. Dipper clearly disliked Pacifica mainly because of how she treated his sister Mabel. Pacifica while clearly shown to be bad to Mabel, she's even shown some signs of envying Mabel, particularly the episode that introduced the Northwest cover up. Pacifica goes through most of her development in season 2, while becoming a better person due to the Pines twins. First through Mabel, who starts to end their rivalry. Then through Dipper, who shares positive chemistry with Pacifica when they actually spend time and get to know each other. Even though they don't get together by the end of the series, which I feel is a good thing for their relationship at the moment, Dipper and Pacifica do have a positive connection with each other, and there's a possibility that they could get together in the future.
Side note: I like Sasha Waybright's development throughout Amphibia. It is implied that Sasha being manipulative and controlling is due to her having divorced parents. Often in real life and in media, when someone (particularly a child) is put into a situation outside their control, they tend to take control over situations that they think they can control, especially if it matters to them. That definitely sounds like Sasha's situation. It doesn't excuse the bad things she did, but it explains it. Sasha definitely had to take responsibility for her bad decisions, while also dealing with the consequences, such as her scar from Anne, losing her friendship with Percy and Braddock, losing Anne's trust and friendship for a time, and her part in Andrias getting the music box. I do think that Sasha did work hard to make up for the mistakes she made, and I was glad that she, Anne, and Marcy were able to save their friendship in the end.
Agreed
I love Pacifica's character growth in the show and comics!🥰
Ok but Anastasia didn't "get prettier" she actually didn't have her design changed at all which was such a nice touch, she only became more honest and kind! Which was all she ever needed to find love. Such a nice simple message
I think the ship was more a cherry ontop kind of thing for me when it comes to Pacifica. I definitely enjoyed her development more then I did the ship between her and Dipper. But isn't that what a Ship is for? I mean, we literally have people just talking to eachother for a scene and suddenly people are drawing ship art and writing about them. So I guess that's the bases for a ship now adays? I'm just glad they got more development rather then them just... talking to eachother.
Yeah I realize that I have a favorite for the Redeeming Mean Girl" as well. There's always something more engaging and much more satisfying about watching this character who starts off as completly awful and throughout the angst and journey unto eventually realizing "oh no, I"M THE ASSHOLE" and there's the extra characterization added into i tthat makes me want to cry. I end up feeling like a proud father watching their terrible daughter (or son) start to finally comes to turn that they've been an annoying jackass for the while and then genuinely vow to change their ways into being better people that the main character would like to be actual friends and turn from villainy to hero ( and in fanon case, Boy/Girl friends) with that just feels... earned after said season of putting the work in to being better.
More interesting than watching the main character's development and hero angst cause well they're the protagonist most of the time they're suppose to start off decent/likable enough but it always makes them
Give me episodes with characters like Amity, Sasha, and even Andrea being the "protagonist" of said episode and I'll be all over that.
Side note: While Amity's arc was given more time to breath and overall the most organic, I'm personally was more addicted to Sasha Waybright's development and her change throughout Amphibia pulls my heart strings a lot more.
I love it
Don't forget Elodie from OK K.O! Although she's more on the category of Sasha as she also didn't have any abusive parents, either, she's just more absorbed in her popularity. Enid softened her down a lot in the P.O.I.N.T Prep arc, and even gets to share her love of Chip Damage with K.O as well. And yes, it's a Cartoon Network example, but she kinda fits the bill, too.
The fact I thought Enid and Elodie were EXES before 😭
I find it interesting that in Elodie's case she was absorbed by the popularity a lot until Enid kicked her ass but at the end of that episode it showed that Elodie did still care about Enid but it's possible THEN the idea that she was being a jerk was being planted. During the P.O.I.N.T. Prep Arc, she's still absorbed but didn't let it get in the way during when Enid's life was in danger, apologized for her actions and then started to be on friendly terms again, even if it was at risk for her good grades after looking hella sus about going out during the sleeping hours at the school (but was still rewarded of a good grade for doing the right thing).
I wouldn't say she was redeemed, more along the lines she got development(which the finale did roll back most of, but she got it) plus, while I do ship them, and its largely because they're cute together(which they are, try to deny that), a smaller part is that is the fact it was her, or Candy as even Grenda finds someone before endgame.
I didn't remember there being sequels to Cinderella at all and was confused when he brought them up, but then I saw the baker and the flower being put in her hair and it hit me like a bolt of lightning like: "OH, WAIT I DID SEE THIS!" anyone else?
I don't remember any of the Disney sequels except Lion king 2.
@@valentinkambushev4968 the lion king sequels I remember and liked, especially the prequel (?) focused on temoon and pumba. I also kinda vaguely remember the brother bear sequels but not to the same degree as the lion king sequels.
I remember Cinderella 2 vaguely, but the reason I forgot most of it is most likely that it just isn't a pleasant movie. It is the "Reality hits you with a brick"-sequel iirc. The third movie is a lot more popular because it has a lot of character to it without getting busy slapping the fairies out of the tale.
Heh, I remember in one of Alex Hirsh QnA, he was suprised that people "like" Pacifica! Like she was made to be the anti Mabel and wasn't intended to be liked in the first place!
She doesn't need redemption, her worst crime is being somewhat unpleasant. She's a kid and she is the way she is because of her parents. The point of her character was that you shouldn't judge a kid for how they are as harshly as if they were an adult, and it seems that you didn't get it.
Out of all these characters, i think Sasha is the most interesting. Not because her redemption was the best because it could have been better. But the fact that she doesn't have any obvious trauma to excuse her actions just makes it interesting because it's true, you don't need a traumatic background to be a bad person. Some people are just bad - maybe they were influenced by friends, or they thought being mean could make them popular. There can be a reason but it doesn't have to be trauma. And while characters like Amity and Pacifica are more forgivable because they were mostly just bullies, characters like Catra are just irredeemable villains who got redeemed badly.
I really want to see more redeemable antagonists who are just bad. Without trauma, without an abusive family or dead parents or whatever. Because you don't need a reason to be bad and you don't need an excuse to better yourself. You can have a character who is mean or hurtful because of unrelated reasons, and still show them recognizing their mistakes and growing as people. There are examples of this in protagonists or side characters, like Sokka for example, but very rarely in antagonists / villains. For a villain to be redeemable, they have to be sympathetic i.e. they need a tragic backstory as to why they became such a monster. As this will suddenly excuse the hundreds of war crimes they've committed. I just want to see a redeemable villain with no excuse for a change.
And for the characters who _do_ have trauma, i want to see people still hold them accountable. One of the million reasons why Zuko's redemption is so amazing is because they actually bring up this point. Toph mentions that he has a messed up family and maybe that's the reason, to which the others say that it's still not an excuse, or something along those lines. This is needed, because trauma or abuse isn't an excuse to hurt innocent people. It's a reason but you can't excuse a person's wrongdoings just because they're traumatized.
Also another thing, not all antagonists have to be redeemed. Not even the sympathetic ones. Azula is an example of this where she's very obviously just a traumatized child, but she still crossed the line of being redeemable. Similarly, Simon from book 3 of Infinity Train is also a sympathetic character who gets a corruption arc instead of a redemption, and slowly turns more and more irredeemable until he is killed off in the end. These characters are still so interesting because we sympathize with them, but the story still makes it clear that their actions cannot be excused or forgiven.
Personally I’m more addicted to the Catra like Characters cause at least they make the show they’re in entertaining as an antagonist. And they’re eventual redemption of their characters more worth it.
While Sasha’s redemption arc could have been better, it’s as you said the most interesting and her character development dives deeper to me, feels MUCH more raw and deep to me than Amity or Pacifica to me thanks to Amphibia’s story telling, at least fanfiction can do for Sasha’s redemption fully what Canon didn’t fulfill for everyone.
@@toadlord8594 Catra was a great antagonist but her redemption was awful. I truly liked her as a villain but my dislike towards her comes from how badly they messed up her character arc and the story as a whole. Her redemption did not feel deserved because of how easily everyone forgave her.
And yes, i agree about Sasha. While her redemption arc was rushed, it wasn't bad. And definitely not as terrible as Catra's. Her character as a whole was very interesting and even though she got forgiven quickly, it felt a bit more deserved because we saw how she actually put in effort to be a better person.
@@skyhideaway okay then Please tell me, what steps/advice would be used for making characters like Catra (Sasha) more redeemable in peoples eyes?
What makes the best female Antagonist Villain to Hero story great?
Cause all I can think of is having them more nervous/scared to fighting against the girl(s) they loved deep inside. Flashback origins of their bad families/parental figures. Earlier start on redemption arc after Season one at their worst.
I mean it’s possible to turn characters who started out as very unlikable but throughout the angst and journey find themselves and genuinely want to become better people.
I believe that it’s a MUCH more inspiring redemption than someone who started out with goodness at the first episode but for some reason these kinds of redemptions are always looked down.
So what are the proper steps to rewriting it better properly cause I’d LOVE for the day these kinds of redemption arcs done properly right.
@@toadlord8594 I'll start with Catra because she had the worst redemption. Either of the points that i mention alone could drastically improve her redemption (imo).
1. Have her fight Adora because she's ordered to, rather than because she's jealous / bitter that Adora left her. This way, she would be holding back a little, like you mentioned. (I mean, if Catra did "love" Adora, like she said, she would have held back anyway)
2. Not have her open the portal and risk wiping out the entire planet (and killing Queen Angela). Fighting an enemy is one thing, threatening mass genocide (and getting away with it) is another. That part alone made her irredeemable.
3. If the writers wanted to keep these parts and still redeem Catra, I'd say there are more ways to redeem a villain than to have them join the heroes. People usually use Zuko as the blueprint, which is why most redeemed villains / antagonists end up befriending the heroes. But that's not the only way to write a redemption bc an act of redemption is basically a person improving themselves and writing their wrongs; this can be done without the help or forgiveness of the heroes.
In Catra's case, the best redemption would be for her to leave the Horde at some point, apologize to Adora and the others, Adora may or may not forgive her but either way, Catra decides to take a journey to find herself. She wishes Adora good luck or whatever, and ends things on relatively good terms. She can go to a suitable place (like the Crimson Waste, where she was happy) and build a new life _without_ all the people she abused. She can build new, healthier relationships and heal from her trauma without having it negatively affect anyone else.
4. Or at the very least, have people be more wary of her or even straight up hostile towards her after she is rescued from Horde Prime. Don't have characters go "omg enemy" only for Adora to say she's on their side, and they're like "okay cool, we love her now". Especially since the princesses got so mad at Entrapta for being emotionally manipulated by Catra and turned against them. Bonus: don't make Catra _still_ act like an absolute asshole to Adora if we're supposed to be liking her now.
As for Sasha, my only complaint was that her redemption wasn't fleshed out and she got forgiven too quickly, because there was a bigger, common enemy. So the only thing I'd change there is that some of the filler episodes in S3 are swapped out for more focus on Sasha, and maybe Anne and the Plantars could be a bit more suspicious about her at first before realizing that she has actually changed for the better.
I've always been a sucker for characters like her who believe in a lie, and eventually have to confront it. Vegeta has been one of my favorite for using, for what is called sometimes, "The Lie" and going through character arcs that develops them, if not outright changing them.
I would have liked some more from her, but her confrontation with history and relation to her family was amazing already.
Well, I think Piccolo's arc used this a lot better, but that may be just me
@@zosiazaremba7479 True, it was used really well as it deals with nature and nurture (if I remember correctly). I do like Vegeta a bit more as its something that he continues to struggle with even in Super.
I’m glad someone is finally talking about this.
15:44 Actually I would have liked if that's how the show went. Having the frogs not trusting Sasha but only allying with her because they have no choice. But they slowly start to trust her as they work together. There was even a fanfic in which Wartwoood was attacked by evil Marsy and when she saw that Sasha is protecting the frogs, Marsy taunted her saying: "After all They are just dumb frogs, right? They don't matter." Everyone remembered Sasha's words, but she responded with "You are wrong! And so was I when I said that!" This would have worked a lot better!
But there's no possible way Darcy or Andrias could've known about that. What happened at Toad Tower was completely isolated, and the only reaction Andrias had to it was sending Yuunan to kill Grime because he failed his job (and post was destroyed).
So yeah, it’s a neat idea on paper, but it's impossible. A better concept would be to have Darcy taunt Sasha about if she just abandonded her morals and doubled down on her controlling tendencies during True Colors and didn't hold back against Anne, she could've stopped the Core's plans AND Marcy's betrayal before they even happened. Then Sasha counters by asking what the point of having that power would be if it's so empty.
Everyone loves redemption arcs, and redeeming bullies avoids its worst pitfalls: "redeeming" the irredeemable. Catra and Sasha are great characters, but we can all admit after the many people they've almost killed, there should've been more time of them earning forgiveness. Redeeming a bully is time efficient in a medium time is often constricted.
The only person Sasha tried to kill was Hop Pop and (briefly) Sprig. She more than made up for that when she saved their lives _3 times_ during the Third Temple.
The only characters she’d tried to kill was Hop Pop (cause of the execution order ) and Sprigg for a brief moment. Season two she pretty much reduced to having a rivalry with Sprigg, she never obsesses into actual malice with the Plantars or anyone really other than Andrias.
She’s a jerk but she’s not heartless.
What's ironic is that I was actually shipping these two even before Northwest Mansion mystery, the only episode to star them both without someone else also playing a heavy role in their story, even aired, and that's all because of their little moments they've had in the series during her rivalry with his sister
yep, as soon as i saw her i immediately know... she will be Dipper's love interest... to be fair i was wrong since they never get together.
the funny thing is when my friends and i watched The Owl House ( we are gravity falls fans), as soon as we saw Amity we immediately go "she will be Pacifica"... we actually called Amity "Green Pacifica" for a while lmao....
lol Amity x Luz also like Diana x Akko from Anime called Little Witch Academia, we used to call Diana as "Witch Pacifica", sometimes my friend called Amity as "Disney Diana" ....
I personally love the trope, bully characters becoming better people, it gets me, maybe is because i still have a faith in humanity.
An example from anime/manga would be Bakugou Katsuki of My Hero Academia, a male example. Started off as a major bully character (his infamous swan dive' suicide comment still a scar from chapter one) who told the main character (Deku) to kill himself. But after getting reality checks throughout the first 3 seasons, he's become the number one popular character in the series in every popularity poll. He's got a mountain size amount of fans that freaking worship the guy in the United States and Japan!
Bakugo is popular in the fandom because he’s ‘attractive’, not because he had a revolutionary character arc
@@Riaah_love I theorized that he’s so overwhelmingly popular cause people just adore “jerk with a heart of gold” rival characters so much.
i mean if we are talking about anime... there are plenty lmao... like the famous one is "A Silent Voice" or.... you know... *the entirety of dragon ball* lmao
@@yohanesbobbysanjaya3541 Yeah thanks for bringing that Up, Dragon Ball most of the Z Warriors were People who Literally tried or were related in some way to killling Goku once before, (Piccolo and Vegeta) And Android 18 and 17. Lmao
I asked for a video over Dipcifica and I got what I wanted and even more. Thank you.
THANK YOU for mentioning the Cinderella sequels!!! They are soo good yet people barely talk about them.
i feel like a good example of showing the trauma that the mean character goes/been through is also in Hey Arnold! too with Helga
I reckon a part of the Zuko redemption arc that’s not brought up as much when invoking it is using a contrast character, an Azula figure who does not get redeemed. The character who could have undergone self-reflection but due to circumstances like the opportunities not opening up or being under a bad influence, didn’t and keeps trying to tempt the Zuko figure back to the dark side. The Disney examples don’t tend to use this. Cinderella does, where Drizella staying under Tremaine’s thumb contrasts with Anastasia looking for her own self-worth and being around people who encourage this. Yet Gravity Falls doesn’t, the closest example being Pacifica’s parents but it’s usually a peer, and Owl House doesn’t have a foil for Amity in this department. Indeed, her siblings long ago knew their parents wouldn’t recognise them for anything except discipline. For someone to be redeemed it works better when there’s someone who doesn’t want to be redeemed.
TBF people also shipped Mabel/Mermando after just 1 episode of them together. This may be just a "Gravity Falls" thing 😆
I absolutely love this trope because (to me at least) its best way for character development.
Someone who never got to learn what morality was supposed to be and was pretty much conditionned to be that way on top of being handed all the thing they wanted without real struggle.
Its fun to see them realise how fucked their life were and try to adapt.
18:36 I think you hit it right on the head with that line. I only discovered this show near the end of highschool when I was mature enough to feel shame for a lot of the things I used to say and believe. And the idea of recognizing what makes you a bad person and trying to be better kept me from continuing some bad patterns
Really enjoyed this one and the breakdown
It's not just rich girls. It's trauma this, trauma that, trauma trauma trauma. It all seemed to me that a lot of writers justify a lot of bad things, just because they've been treated bad. They can't be held accountable, they're just the victim. Speaks volumes about our current culture about victimhood.
I think Pacifica got kind of a half-baked redemption arc tbh. She gets around to the point where Amity was circa lost in language and then they kind of, just, stop. Her dad has to force her to stoop so low as conversing with a homeless person. And Sasha? I could write a dissertation some problems I had with that.
But yeah, 'rich and spoiled' is bad enough to lead a Mean Girls clique, comes with parental expectation baggage so that it's not 'really' the daughter's fault, but also not evil enough that a redemption arc feels undeserved. Pretty easy target to fill the Piccolo/Zuko slot in a party.
this was always my favorite possible ship from this show. for many of the reasons pointed out here... but also because of the fact that this episode actually made me feel like they have chemistry. they play off each other, they make each other better, and I really love their moments
also "you're the worst" made me laugh so hard when it happened
It's not possible, it's canon. It's been confirmed canon 3 times in official source materials.
I haven’t seen anyone talk about how calling it “Disney’s obsession” is disingenuous to the different creators’ ideas for the characters. It’s more of a coincidence that they all appear on under the same studio, because most likely the producers wrote the characters like that in order to tell the story they wanted rather than to “appease the studio”. It’s not Disney’s problem, there are tons of characters like that which aren’t on Disney channel.
sorry for bein’ a little nitpicky, i get the point of the vid tho!
I like redemption Arcs for characters a whole lot. But I like it more when there is substance to the redemption.
Like Zuko's has a whole lot of substance to it and that's why I like it, it feels earned to me. We see that even when he's the villain he's not going that extra mile to be cruel or ruthless like his sister or father and often times when he does act terrible it's typically for his father's approval which feeds into that whole idea of childhood trauma.
Gajeel from Fairytail, he's my favorite character, but when he's introduced he is very clearly a villain and a fairly brutal one at that. But they also make it clear that when he's brought back into the show that he's not just going to be accepted, everyone else is scared of and/or hostile towards him. They make it clear he's not just going to be forgiven and they introduce these arcs of him putting in the extra work to be part of the guild from being a double agent, to protecting Levy, to saving the guild.
And some "redemption arcs" admittedly feel lackluster to me or more forced. Because I'm going to be honest, I am still pretty pissed off at Catra and I still very much don't like Bakugou or his "redemption". Because I will acknowledge Catra has trauma but she also has done a ton of terrible stuff even to the people who were on her side like Hordak. And Bakugou doesn't really have that excuse as he was just always a jerk and a narcissist, even his parents were sick of his shit.
I attended external class in my college about film and story telling, and one day my teacher taught us about "Zuko vs Eren"
I wont talk about zuko lol the video already stated everything... i intrigued when my teacher talked about Eren "Anti-Redemption" or as he said "the point of no return" ... it is interesting because my teacher dived into the nature of contrast and irony... or as my teacher said
"the point of no return is usually happens... when you returned back into a previous pivotal point in story but with contrasting circumstances, oh yeah the irony, that what makes it so damn good"
"Eren journey started when he said he will kill all his enemies, "i will kill them all". back then we assumed to be titan, we cheered him through his story, and now the circumstances had been switched.... when Eren became the villain, we prayed for him to change, for him to redeem himself... and when the Rumbling arrived at Marley, eren said the same sentence he said before.. "i will kill them all"... at that moment... you know he wont ever stop, he wont ever be redeemed.. that is the point of no return"
"this is the essence of Eren VS Zuko, Zuko redemption arc is about him changing his moral value, about him changing his character, acknowledging his flaw and as the story goes, zuko learned to be a better person... Eren is opposite, his moral never changes, his action is what drives the story, His Character is what drives the plot"
"now you understand that Plot and Character always go hand-in-hand, you can make story driven character like Zuko or plot driven character like Eren. i know many engineering student attended this class (yep including me), so i will use equation... Plot is X and Character is Y.. like a math equation Y = X + 1, you have the freedom to pick whether to assign number in X or Y and the other will follows, but you need to remember, keep it consistent.. the formula of your story, the main theme.. should never change"
lol i just wanted to share what my teacher taught me because i think its amazing
Dude it’s so nice to see someone mention how fucked up the bell was. I’ve seen some people mention it lightly, but still question why she couldn’t just say no to her parents. Bc it’s just…soooooo much worse than just having overbearing parents
I beleve there is 3 main reasons they use this archetype arc:
1- it is easy to made, an arrogant and abuse parents, a child tryng to please them
2- it is working, so why stop?
3- they want you to have sympathy for a rich person
Besides his archetype, this character never is poor, black or something like that, they are always one "protagonist like" character
Really good examination of a fascinating trope!
You are now and forever my favorite youtuber for unironically bringing the Cinderella franchise into your analysis. #blessed
Excuse you Cinderella 3 was an absolute masterpiece
The trope may be overused yes but i eat it up everytime
Never seen or heard of your channel but your videos are pretty good ngl
That intro was immaculate!
Hey, it could be worse. You might have a completely flat character like Chloe Bourgeois from Miraculous Ladybug who takes tentative steps towards redemption, but thanks to an inept writing staff, a purposefully infantalised target audience and a creator Thomas Astruc who seems to have a personal grudge against a fictional character, all that progress gets left behind in the dust.
Now she's just as bland and boring as the rest of the teens in the show, and acting even WORSE than before her aborted arc because Thomas wants us to 'love' her replacement superhero half-sister in comparison called Zoe who's so sweet she'll rot your teeth overnight.
I'll take proper character development above one dimensional bullies who just do things for the EVILZ, thanks.
(You could guess by my avatar and username which side of the debate I'd fall down on now) ^^
Oh man ,Zoe i literally stopped watching the show because of her
We are definitely to easy to impress
You know, I didn't expect this going into the video, but I think I 100% agree with everything you said here.
I just got done rewatching the series. I loved the dynamic between Dipper and Pacifica in the show. What you didn’t mention is that in the last episode she put a heart on her “I” in Dipper’s letter.
As a self-proclaimed simp for the redeemed prince/princess type character, it's everything you said it was, but part of it is also that when the spoiled shitheads do truly redeem themselves, you can feel the weight of regret in everything they do with well(enough) written ones and it just makes the cool things thing might end up doing, thing much cooler because you ABSOLUTELY FEEL IT.
Well trauma isn't enough to redeem a character, but it is often enough to explain them. The redemtion has to come from what they do to make up for their mistakes.
I didn't realize the bell thing until I watched this and it genuinely gave me chills.
22 seconds and you already have me rolling with laughter, that's a new record! XD
Alright, but for real tho. Everytime I see a Pacifica x Dipper fan art. I'm just smiling :)
Yeah it’s easy. We’re easy. But can you blame us for treating this ship like the second coming when the other Dipper ships where:
Wendip: Too old/thank god he moved on
Candip: Nerds in love but not as interesting
Billdip: Eldritch Horror x 12 year old
Pincest: no
Wendy is like 2 years older than him. I was always find it laughable that how everyone talks about 2 years like it's so huge, when people in High School date with the same age gap. Also, I'm skeptical that Dipper completely moved on from Wendy by the end seeing as he was tempted with a fake Wendy in Mabel's bubble. It's seems more likely he got over the idea of tyring to win her heart, but still retains some feelings for her which is not unrealistic. He probably moved on in a sense that he's given up trying to make it happen, but it doesn't mean he still doesn't like her in someway.
It's a trend in a lot of shows because it functions off powerful mechanisms like emotional contrast and scarcity principle. You love it when the hard-ass finally lets their guard down to express a bit of tenderness because it's a rare occurrence---and because it's rare, it's incredibly valuable and you might not get many other chances to see it.
I know how much strep throat sucks that’s just it’s impressive that you made that video. It hurts so much.
While this is about Amity I fully admit instead of pacifica mostly? One issue i have with Amity's version of this whole thing is how, it kinda feels like the show doens't really...Have a...Character for her anymore? LIke. Once Amity switched sides and became Luz girlfriend, she kinda lost all her persoanlity and characterization beyond 'Hates her mom' And 'Is Luz girlfriend.' Those 2 things define her and nothing else at this point. Outside of that she has no characer or personality. Which is so weird as she's acutally become LESS interesting as she went along.
After Pacifica got her redemption episode, she still had her persoality and character. But Amity has almost entierly lost her's. At times it feels like Amity was meant to be a side character, that was forced into the role of a main one, but they didn't acually plan anything for that. Which again is really weird given how good most of hte characers ARE in the owl house.
Thanks for making such a comment, cause i also agree that Lumity is a cute ship done right, But Amity as a character got WAY boring in Season 2 as the show goes on. She doesn’t have that sass and edge she had In season 1, If it wasn't for her Family problems (Hating her Mom, wanting her Dad’s attention and reconciliation) and dating Luz she'd start to be pretty forgettable.
i really like lumity as a ship, but i totally see where you're coming from. here's hoping the 3 specials help characterize her more
This is what I've noticed about Amity as well but try pointing that out to the Lumity fandom. It's as if being Luz' girlfriend is all they wanted from Amity and nothing else about her mattered.
With regard to this video Amity also has the problem that she isn't redeemed. Despite the horrible things she's done to Willow from years of bullying to destroying her mind out of vanity Amity has done nothing to warrant redemption. She's yet to acknowledge any wrongdoing on her part. She's yet to take responsibility for her actions and their consequences. She's yet to apologize to the people she's hurt and she's yet to do anything to make amends. Despite everything Amity did against not only Willow but Luz and King as well the words, "I'm sorry", have yet to cross Amity's lips. Amity's previous personality has been retconned just to make her Luz' girlfriend.
@@kylepope7850 I cannot agree more. As a heads up, this is going to be a bit of a long one. But i cannot agree more with you. Espically the idea that Amity got her personality Ret-conned to be Luz's girlfriend. I think it goes a bit deeper than that. I think Amity was not origianlly going to be Luz' girlfriend. Or rather was not origianlly writen or intended to be. In fact. I don't think she was even going to be a main character of the series. And that she took anothers place for both Luz's girlfriend and their place in the main cast.
That other girl Being Willow. Yes. I belive Willow was suppoused to be Luz's girlfriend originally. To this day i have never shaken the feeling that Amity was not origianlly intended to be Luz's love interest. I feel that it was meant to be WIllow originally and Amity was essintly just another pacifica type character who was Willow's freind in the past. I bring this up, cause quite frankly, Willow is a much stronger, more interesting and defined character with a proper arc about getting confidence and growing stronger and wanting to come out of her shell to be the REAL Willow she always hid away and making her own choices.
Willow is simply better written than Amity is. But all of this was crammed into season 2 instead of spaced over 1 and 2. I mean heck she's even established to be working out to gain muscle. Wanting self-improvement.
I get the feeling that the moment's AMity got in season 1, that showed us she wasn't all bad, were suppoused to be WIllow's. Does it really make any sense for her character, even to this day, to read to children in a library? It makes sense for WIllow. But not AMity. In fact the whole Libaray episode is strange as it doens't really fit Amity's character at ALL.
If anything it feels more like that Episode was going to be Willow's, but was changed to be Amity's as they wanted to push her as hte love interest instead.
When you look at the two, Willow has the acutal arc that you can actually see Luz being a part of and helping her through. Amity is...Kinda just...gay panic, cute blushing and Abusive mom. I don't dislike her, but she feels like a side character or a pacifica pushed into the main character role. While WIllow feels like a main character forced into the side character Role.
I think you can even see who Amity was supposued to be a bit in waht we have been shown. The libary episode is I think a good one to use, As i think it was mainly supposued to showcase something to us. WHY Amity bullies others and picks on Willow.
I think the episode was suppoused to show to us, that despite all of Amity's outward arrogance and dismissal of Willow and others, At home, Amity was the black sheep of her family. She was the one picked on, bullied and pushed around and made to feel small and weak by her sibligns and parents. That her siblings tormented her and embrassed her constantly and she took it out in turn on Willow as a way to cope and trying to be the top/Star student to feel better. It would of been a much more natural flow to the episode and make her calling Luz a bully much more interesting as Amity had been dealing with it so long from her siblings, she thought she could recongize it in Luz.
From there we would of learned that the soruce of Amity's siblings bullying was their mother encouraging it to make Amity be 'the best' and that much like Pacifica, despite outward apperances, her home life was really terrible and explained alot of her actions. I can even imagine Amity wouldn't of stood up to her mom so easily and would of needed help to do so from Luz and Willow.
While i feel this is getting too long you made me want to voice my honest thoughts so i hope you are ok with reading and respondign to them. I also have more thoughts about all of this, but i feel it's too long.
I apologize for the length.
@@naciabell7903 I have no problem with lengthy replies. Take as many words as you require to make your thoughts clear.
I expect fandom's feedback to Disney caused Amity to be repurposed in the narrative. It's my particular hypothesis that the role being played by Hunter aka the Golden Guard was originally intended for Amity. Amity spent the whole first season going on and on about her ambition to join the Emperor's Coven. That dream was taken off the table by the events of "Agony of a Witch" and "Young Blood, Old Souls". Yet despite having her life goal going up in smoke Amity has said nothing about her future since. They even had her say that she never wanted to join the Emperor's Coven. She said it was her mother's dream, not hers. That is clearly contradicted by Amity's behavior in "Covention" when Lilith's cheating humiliated her in front of the Emperor's Coven.
The show would have been far more interesting if Luz and Amity were pitted against each other as Amity eventually joined the Emperor's Coven and was sent by Belos to take Eda's portal while Luz and Amity fought to stop her. Amity would have been a character in that story. Instead she's just half of Lumity now with no other role in the show. Amity could have been another Zuko or Sasha Waybright. Instead she's just another Jackie Lynn Thomas.
I do wish there was more characters that are from abusive neglectful families who are rich, because as someone with the same background I love to see better written rich child characters that aren’t mean or shallow because there is more than one personality for someone with rich parents. I wish there was a rich traumatised kid character that’s naive and sheltered and kind hearted but just so unaware of how not everyone lives like them and tries to help but is very socially awkward and ND. I love characters with fucked up families because I relate too much to them, but I wish rich girl characters aren’t always annoying rude cheerleader type
You litteraly just described Adrien from MLB
@@katie15732 He is kinda bland but yeah he is more along the lines. I wish more fleshed out better shows made that trope
Only about 95% what you seem to be going for, but Entrapta from She-Ra and the Princesses of Power spends most of the show morally gray, she’s deliberately written to be autistic-coded, and she struggles with relationships because she doesn’t really get how they work.
@@chimericalbeast I know about Entrapta ika fan of her aha
One thing that keeps ringing in my head about Pacifica develop, that we really did't have to time to see, because she didn't has more screen time (not saying that that is a mistake or something), is the fact that she decided to change, and she was able to do it with dipper's helps, to do it in front of her parents, but the whole town was use to "mean" Pacifica, everyone else would expect her to be mean.
So they never really explore that transition, and not just in a "everyone learn that she's not (that) mean anymore" but "the social pressure to avoid to be like that again". It's easier to be that new person in front of the ones that were there, but once you are throw again to the "you are like this" social pressure, it thend to not show that change (even if it hurts later).
I think that was solved (in a way) with the weirdmaggedon, she was one of the (original) keys to save the town. Everyone saw her helping, and eating the same dust as anyone else.
I too am vulnerable to this characterization as well. I just love seeing it and I can't deal with it lol.
I also wouldn't have expected this ship to be as big as it was.
I think people focus way too much on the word "redemption" whether or not it even applies. It's a buzz word people use regardless of if it actually fits.
Someone getting development and giving them a chance to be a better person in the future is not inherently a "redemption arc" and it just feels like we're chiding writers for trying to show depth to their characters.
And idk I just find his remarks about Disney obsessing over female redemption arcs to be just kind of weird. Her little arc felt no different than when they do redemption arcs for guys so it just feels like holding a female character's feet to the fire for something male characters do constantly.
Yeah, a lot of people say that getting a character to actually look at the door is the same as yeeting them through.
i attended film and story telling class and my teacher one said "Zuko vs Eren" .. "Redemption vs Anti-Redemption" ... he talked about the nature about contrast and irony and one thing that my teacher brought up is "point of no return" ... he explained "the point of no return usually happens... when we returned back to pivotal point in the story but with contrasting circumstances, yeah i know it is an irony but it what makes it so damn good"
and that should be the essence of "redemption"... "the character redemption arc should start because of the character own action, and the arc is completed when we visited the "pivotal point" back. you need to go back where it was began, *that is why its called an arc* . when you touch that "point of no return" is when you know your character has completed their redemption arc like Zuko or will never get Redemption Arc like Eren"
"Zuko started his exile by refusing to fight his father and then standing up to his father, or you could say his arc started when Zuko betrayed his uncle and then reconcile with him... the thing is your character arc should be started because their own choice and action... the war happened because Aang choose to run away from his responsibility as Avatar.... "
like the true redemption in Gravity Fall is Grunkle Stan... he always cheats and tells lie, he was arrogant and that costed him his brother and in the final episode he refused to hold stanford hand leading bill to stop the ritual... and he redeemed himself by scamming bill into going to his mind and letting his mind got destroyed
but yeah sadly many people dont understand that "developing" isnt the same as "redemption"...
A big issue I have with "redeeming the mean rich girl", beyond it becoming just so overdone, is that the effectiveness of the redemption relies on them not being "too much" of a bully. Because, otherwise the revelation of "she actually has a sad home life" is only going to invoke a "and I should care because?" reaction from me. And how this arc can often forget the victims of that "redeemed" character. Though, this also leads back into the issues with redemption as a whole.
Pacifica is actually a good example of "bully redemption" for two major reasons, her actions against the characters we're meant to like isn't all that major, and she doesn't spend more than a handful of episodes as an antagonist across two seasons. And also the people she bullies are either unaffected by her or more than willing to bite back and aren't punished by the narrative for it.
Compare this to characters like Diamond Tiara from MLP or Chloe Bourgeois from Miraculous Ladybug. The audience is given multiple seasons of these characters just being the absolute worse and their actions go so far over the line, Chloe especially with how she commits literal crimes and doesn't face any consequences. And with characters like Diamond Tiara, all blame for her prior actions is immediately shifted to her mother and everyone acts like she's a good guy now, even though DT's mother wasn't the one who gleefully mocked another character for her disability. And the victims of their bullying are just expected to immediately forgive or act like good little victims and not bite back because "something, something, sinking to their level".
Isn’t that the POINT of redemption arcs though? The redeeming character HAS to go over the line, they NEED to hit that bottom of the barrel, their absolute lowest point so that when they do start their path to redemption it feels proud and gratifying that they do?
@@toadlord8594 There's a difference between "they've hit the bottom of the barrel" and "they've crossed the moral event horizon". Though, rich bully characters don't usually go near the moral even horizon, characters like Chloe from ML being the exception.
Instead, the thing interfering with the "point of redemption arcs" is that they're usually badly handled. All their bad behaviour is blamed entirely on their parents (yes, the parents are still influential but the bully still committed those actions themselves), all their previous behaviour is completely forgiven with the damage done to the victims of all their bullying just being completely ignored, the writers will spend a lot of time establishing the bully character as the absolute worst yet still slap on a redemption, there's usually another character doing all the heavy-lifting to redeem the bully instead of the bully coming to realise that they want to change on their own, etc.
And one more thing: Why should I care? Instead of giving us a reason to actually care about the bully character and want to see a redemption, the writers just fast-track it by saying "oh, but this character who's gone out of their way to hurt the characters you're meant to care about is actually really sad and doesn't have good parents". And that trick has been pulled way too many times for it to work anymore.
@@Asexual_Individual Personally you might hate me for saying this But personally I think Amity Blight from the Owl House is a bit overrated but fans forgive her instantly cause she’s a canon lesbian and became Luz’s girlfriend in Season 2 with good representation.
Amity still bullied Willow for years and was simply hand waved excuse with the classic excuse being her parents being the sole reason. And in season two all her character is retconned to being Luz’s girlfriend and nothing else. She’s practically lost all her sass and personality flaws she still had in season one. It’s only mentioned once in episodes like Eclipse Lake and as a side plot in Labryinth runners but that’s probably the last we’ll ever get from her dealing with dealing with repairing the damage between her and Willow.
@@Asexual_Individual I also think Willow X Luz would have been a much sweeter couple than Lumity but that’s my opinion.
@@toadlord8594 I haven't actually watched the Owl House, one of those cases of the hype making me want it less, so I can't speak for the quality of Amity's redemption.
Though, from videos I've seen discussing Owl House, they at least do more with the redemption than other rich bully redemptions, like the abusive parents being used for more than "feel sad for this character".
The person behind the videos also agreed that Willow would have been a better love interest for Luz (instead, the fandom pairs Willow with angsty white boy number 4562).
This man legit masterfully explained y I like mean girls in my show. Opened my eyes to facts I didn't even realize. To that I say GOAT!
Your hair looks really nice.