Whistler Bike Park No Joke with Drop in Clinic

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  • čas přidán 5. 07. 2015
  • No Joke to Drop in Clinic is an awesome black/double black trail combination running almost 3/4 the length of Whistler's Garbanzo zone. There are two entrances to No Joke - the first via Freight Train & the second just off Blue Velvet. Once on No Joke you in for a technical delight of rough and tumble gnar (thats steep in places) full of rocks, rollers and some pretty special "roller coaster" type ladders that when hit with just enough speed feel incredible. Shortly before the trails end, you have the option to go left into the short but sweet Drop in Clinic for a very steep and long rock roll (a little like the roll on Detroit Rock City) which spits you back out on No Joke shortly before the trail's end. The rock roll looks intimidating, but once you hit it you realize its actually quite manageable and fun - just scope the line first to make sure you hit it in the right spot. If you don't want to hit the double black Drop in Clinic you can simply stay to the right and continue down No Joke down the natural trail line. At the trail's end, you go down a fire road where you have the option of continuing down Freight Train which leads to the top of the Fitz zone or turning left into Duffman which ends about halfway down the Fitz zone by the entrance to Del Bocca Vista.
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Komentáře • 186

  • @Fokus_1977
    @Fokus_1977 Před 8 lety +56

    That is a long long run. I'm not surprised you knee caps were squeaking like that.

    • @CephBacon
      @CephBacon Před 7 lety +3

      a good time on the main dh run at my local mountain is about 12 min

  • @TenThumbsProductions
    @TenThumbsProductions Před 5 lety +2

    Damn dude! Sweet!

  • @cbeers21
    @cbeers21 Před 7 lety +3

    I'm heading out to BC in a month. This looks amazing. Although I'm pretty handy on my bike, this is a totally different level. Cool video though. Trying to get a flavor for what I'm going to be riding. My hope is I'll be able to hit a black diamond by the end of the days. If I can muster up the courage that is.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety +3

      Like the signs say on the way up the lift: pre-ride, re-ride, then free-ride. You'd be surprised whats possible if you ease into it and build up over the course of your trip. Have fun man!

  • @samm6853
    @samm6853 Před 8 lety +1

    The best video ever.this is a video that makes me feel more confident in doing blacks and double blacks

    • @SlowpokeRodriguez80
      @SlowpokeRodriguez80 Před 7 lety

      i was just thinking the exact same thing... myself, not being an airtime afficionado the rather slow speed he is riding these trails with gives me a lot more confidence in riding something like this... cause even if you chicken out at the very last second it's still all "rollable" and i don't have to think about missing teeth, broken collar bones or hip replacements... good job whitesnake

  • @tomschang2225
    @tomschang2225 Před 7 lety +23

    That camera squeak is gonna end me

    • @pkundrat
      @pkundrat Před 7 lety

      Luckily there is no useful sound in the video so easiest option is to just turn the sound off :)

  • @mrgeringer
    @mrgeringer Před 7 lety +21

    I thought you were going to Crash Because of the title.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety +8

      almost did a few times I seem to recall.

  • @bigkurt25
    @bigkurt25 Před 8 lety +4

    loved it. i rode bmx trails for about 15 years and have been looking to get into mountain biking. nice run. those straights look super fast

  • @SimonRobinson137
    @SimonRobinson137 Před 8 lety +4

    Great video - I really enjoyed it - cheers

  • @TheEinart
    @TheEinart Před 8 lety +1

    thanks for the ride,looks funny :) keep posting more.

  • @jamiewhite3470
    @jamiewhite3470 Před 8 lety +2

    Such a sick trail. Absolutely love it.

  • @PerhapsToast2
    @PerhapsToast2 Před 8 lety +1

    the big drainage ditches on the road up at garbo are fun lol

  • @markbonner1048
    @markbonner1048 Před 8 lety +1

    Great ride..looks quality!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Mark Bonner thanks Mark. It's a great trail. Can't wait to give it a go this summer.

  • @goodrichgarage5657
    @goodrichgarage5657 Před 8 lety +1

    Awesome ride!

  • @bryank5255
    @bryank5255 Před 8 lety +1

    Nice vid. You're on the way to becoming a youtube star

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Bryan Kim lol sup BK! Much appreciated! You should subscribe bro! I got more content coming!

  • @attel75
    @attel75 Před 8 lety +1

    Nice explanation and video. Will hit this trail for the first time in July. Love all your videos, I hope you get to do 2016 versions of them :)

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      Appreciate your feedback!!! Leaving for Whistler in a few weeks man - I'll definitely be making a video or two. And hopefully of much better quality than last years edits. You have any favourites at the bike park or will this be your first time?

    • @attel75
      @attel75 Před 8 lety +1

      Was there for two days last week for my first time ever, but only did Fiz as other zones had not open yet. Going again 4th of July weekend, looking forward to do the other zones. Can't say I have a favorite yet, still trying all of them out :)

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      attel75 well have a great time man!

  • @providore222
    @providore222 Před 7 lety +2

    rip the unofficial lines where I ride aren't maintained- the roots are insane - and I'm guessing that they would be at least a double black

  • @samm6853
    @samm6853 Před 8 lety +1

    Thank you so much

  • @unknownguy805
    @unknownguy805 Před 8 lety +4

    This shit makes me want to buy a bike and do this shit

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      +unknownguy805 I can appreciate that. I was in your position once too. Just do it!

  • @Jordakiin
    @Jordakiin Před 8 lety +12

    No joke this trail is hard. (ba dum tsh)

  • @ColeHoward
    @ColeHoward Před 7 lety

    great video

  • @gary1628
    @gary1628 Před 8 lety +7

    I swear I could do that on my hardtail cross-country bike

  • @user-dy1vm4pt2d
    @user-dy1vm4pt2d Před 8 lety +2

    The only reason I subscribed is because you had 666 subscribers.Awesome video man ! :)

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      +Βαγγελης Μανουσακης Holy Moly! Appreciate the sub and thanks for saving me from the Beast!

  • @The_Sock_
    @The_Sock_ Před 8 lety

    god i need to get in shape, this looks like so much fun!!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      it's a great trail no doubt. Can't wait to go back next summer!

  • @alessandrodrjack
    @alessandrodrjack Před 8 lety +2

    nice one, good job man. 60 fps is so smooth

  • @jackchurches9177
    @jackchurches9177 Před 8 lety +1

    its a nice trail

  • @basicmtbskills8465
    @basicmtbskills8465 Před 7 lety +1

    Good line choices! I love downhill. But I don't get to do it a lot where I live

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      Its a duzy!!! No Joke man - one of the classics in the Garbo zone. Always puts a smile on my face.

  • @czarPROstock
    @czarPROstock Před 8 lety +2

    Cool video ! shot in 1080p / 60hz ! :D nice ride like it !

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      100%! Thanks

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      +BMX LIFE I hear brother. Just learning how to put these videos together to be honest. A soundtrack definitely would have been a step in the right direction.

  • @numbresix5099
    @numbresix5099 Před 8 lety

    Aah, man. I'd love to get a shot at whistler before I'm too old. It was nice to see it a little steadier than ballsout per hour, I'm not mocking - I'm in my mid forties so that's about my pace on something I'm not sure about. It's great to see a fast hard trail without pros making me feel inadequate.Thanks loads for the post, man, much appreciated. Your Upper A Line vid looks like a great ride too. Nice! Subscribing, thanks.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      thank you! Definitely not a pro! Just livin the dream whenever possible.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Numbre Six check out this run down Crank it Up. Probably my best flow run of that trip - next step A-Line proper. czcams.com/video/_YAXEdV-MJY/video.html

    • @numbresix5099
      @numbresix5099 Před 8 lety

      +Whitesnake2 Thanks. Another great one. My envy grows every time I see these Whistler trails. Fantastic!

  • @pywidem5823
    @pywidem5823 Před 6 lety

    I think most of the dislikes came from people who thought you dropped in a clinic

  • @gadikas
    @gadikas Před 8 lety +1

    Sick line great video. I which i could get there some time.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +An0nym05 it's litterally a Disney land for bikers.

    • @gadikas
      @gadikas Před 8 lety

      Haha yes =)

  • @joedpettit1691
    @joedpettit1691 Před 8 lety +8

    I need to go to Canada sooooo bad!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +JoeDPettit it is one of the best places in the world!

    • @joedpettit1691
      @joedpettit1691 Před 8 lety +1

      yeah it looks mad! wanna be good enough one day to be able to go there and ride everything

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +JoeDPettit It's a pretty cool place!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      +JoeDPettit That is a great goal. There is so much to ride!

    • @user-cv2ln4mf4k
      @user-cv2ln4mf4k Před 8 lety +2

      Im living in germany, iit sucks :(

  • @jennifermanley2450
    @jennifermanley2450 Před 8 lety +2

    I didn't get the chance to try this one last summer. It looks like it might be a bit on the tricky side.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      You can do it Niffy! Just take it one section at a time and you'll be there before you know it.

  • @jerryp1392
    @jerryp1392 Před 8 lety +2

    Critics, shut it, 9 out of 10 of you would piss ur pants on these trails. Great run, good camera work.

  • @THESTUBBED11
    @THESTUBBED11 Před 8 lety +1

    What camera did you use to record this? If it's a go pro which one as im looking to buy one so i can record my runs like this one. Great video btw.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +THESTUBBED11 gopro hero 4 silver. The one with the screen on the back of the camera.

  • @ulisesexful
    @ulisesexful Před 8 lety +1

    Muy buena resolucion

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Ulises RiHe many thanks. Just 1080p.

  • @nothingtoseehere473
    @nothingtoseehere473 Před 7 lety

    Downhill rules!!!

  • @farisadzhari6041
    @farisadzhari6041 Před 7 lety

    really enjoy your video. may i know what camera u are using?

  • @pauljeffcfx
    @pauljeffcfx Před 8 lety

    What camera and settings do you run, looks super clear.?

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      this was filmed on a GoPro Hero 4 Silver in 1080p Superview 60fps. At the time I made this video I was learning about the GoPro and Im pretty sure I had most settings in the default in Protune but had the spot meter turned on. That is why the you can see the auto white balance constantly changing throughout the video. But tbh I am not 100% what settings I was using at the time, I can only guess.

  • @Simon_B
    @Simon_B Před 8 lety +2

    Great run! What camera did you use to film this? Thank you in advance

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      Gopro hero 3 silver 1080p sv 60fps.

    • @Simon_B
      @Simon_B Před 8 lety +1

      +Whitesnake2 the quality is excellent

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      Thanks Simon! It's a start - still plenty of room for improvements though! Appreciate the feedback.

  • @endurotruckererniedesjardins

    I've use the old hfx9 Hayes for years riding here in Ontario. they've done ok but I'm 220 lbs so they do fade slowly . squealing brakes just make me crazy lol

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Ernie Desjardins zees or saint will deffo do the trick !

  • @garpur44
    @garpur44 Před 8 lety +1

    Nice looking forward to Whistler in 2017.
    Nice vid but if your riding solo I'd mount the camera so you can see the bike.
    Helmet cams are better for following and capturing your mates rides. Just a suggestion.

  • @endurotruckererniedesjardins

    what brakes do you run on your rig. I'm do for a new set. thinkin shimano vee

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Ernie Desjardins Shimano Saints. Best in the biz in my experience.

  • @bwest6275
    @bwest6275 Před 8 lety +1

    love your videos covering whistler trails. question on this one...is it normally this deserted looking, or did you ride this somehow when there were no crowds? i hope to make it to whistler in the near future but wouldn't want to hold people behind me back as i'm still learning. it would be nice to ride the trails this way so i can go at my own pace. is it possible?

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Brian Westfield this video was from early July so the summer was already in full swing and as such the park was probably running with the average compliment of riders out there. I guess the mountain is pretty dang big so people are spread everywhere. That said, there are more popular trails (A-Line, Crank it Up, Blue Velvet etc) that are always pretty full of people so be aware. Whenever you feel like you are potentially holding someone up just pull over. It happens, but people are pretty chill and respectful in my experience.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Whitesnake2 Its also worth mentioning that the Fitzsimmons zone is generally busier as a rule cause up in Garbanzo there are only really blacks/double black trails with the exception of Blue Velvet. So the traffic in Garbo is definitely a bit thinner vs the lower mountain.

    • @bwest6275
      @bwest6275 Před 8 lety +1

      +Whitesnake2 ok cool. Whenever I see videos of whistler n PinkBike, the trails look like a packed freeway. This was the first video I saw where it was the exact opposite. Glad to know even during peak season there are still trails that allow one to ride without feeling crowded.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Brian Westfield I'd say it's the big flow trails that are the most busy (A-line etc.). But even on those it's possible to drop in and not be bothered. Just tell the guys behind you are rolling it to get a feel for it and peeps are usually pretty accomodative.

    • @mtbrider6119
      @mtbrider6119 Před 7 lety

      That's a great thing about downhill biking as opposed to skiing/snow boarding. The trails can get extremely crowded during the winter but even the most popular DH parks the trails never really get crowded.

  • @kevin_howell
    @kevin_howell Před 7 lety

    You've got a creaky GoPro... have you greased it at all lately? :P Hahahaha Love your vids!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      creaky indeed doh! I've learned how to use the GoPro a bit more effectively since. Cheers for watching!

  • @allahson4967
    @allahson4967 Před 7 lety

    does he use brakes on the wood stick hill part?

  • @bnumber8
    @bnumber8 Před 8 lety +1

    It's like a video game rendering the scenery detail at 4:00. I was jealous of the guys riding Killington when I was hiking there this summer. Does it take long to get comfortable or are you a long time mountain biker?

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      Man... Ive been riding for 2yrs only so Im constantly in a state of progression and improvement at this stage. I'll tell you though - go to whistler for 2 wks and ride everyday all day and you will be surprised how quickly you move up the curve. The first time I did this trail it scared the helI out of me but after a while it got easier and easier. if I rode that trail now I would be riding it probably totally differently as I have way more experience and have improved my riding.

    • @pudberryg627
      @pudberryg627 Před 8 lety +1

      Mountain biking like any other sport is easier to learn while younger but can still be learned. Most of mountain biking is just getting over the fear of taking it to the next level. (And physical fitness)

    • @pudberryg627
      @pudberryg627 Před 8 lety

      The rest is just technique and how you control the bike.

  • @nickalexander5317
    @nickalexander5317 Před 9 lety +4

    The rollercoaster was scary, shame No Joke is stretched out with superhighways in between.
    Y

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 9 lety +2

      I know the fire roads... but they are actually fun too after a while. You can absolutely bomb em at top speed!

  • @owenbradshaw1710
    @owenbradshaw1710 Před 8 lety +1

    What kind of camera was this filmed on

  • @markuszachmann7635
    @markuszachmann7635 Před 8 lety +1

    what camera do you use?

  • @jasondavis1363
    @jasondavis1363 Před 8 lety +1

    Are the trails the same each year

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      I think the layout is roughly the same but the features do change somewhat esp on the machine made flow trails like Blue Velvet and A-Line and Crank it Up.

  • @henryedwards4379
    @henryedwards4379 Před 7 lety +2

    I only have a basic mountain bike these better ones which don't rattle the chain every time you go down a jump. But they are all so expensive :( anywhere I could get one for a good price ?

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      Just keep looking around. There are some great deals to be had out there but you have to be ready to pounce on them when you see em! Otherwise someone else will.

    • @henryedwards4379
      @henryedwards4379 Před 7 lety

      +Whitesnake2 like eBay bidding ?

    • @henryedwards4379
      @henryedwards4379 Před 7 lety

      +Whitesnake2 also sorry to keep bothering you put what would you say is the best brand to look for?

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      you're local bike shop is where I would start. If you support them, they will support you more than you know.

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      I've had great times on Specialized and Santa Cruz bicycles. I can recommend both of those brands without hesitation.

  • @511emjay7
    @511emjay7 Před 8 lety

    is there like a too strong colorcorrection on the vid or is it just the cam?

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +MAJUE VO it was the camera. At this point i barely knew how to set up the go pro let alone what colour correction was.

  • @endurotruckererniedesjardins

    rest of my groupo is saint. brakes were stolen a few years back. big money for saint stuff. some say the vee are the same as the older line of Saint stuff

  • @georg4445
    @georg4445 Před 6 lety

    Where is the crash the in the title is???

  • @amsoil_connoisseur2710
    @amsoil_connoisseur2710 Před 7 lety +1

    i have the same gloves

  • @juusernei
    @juusernei Před 8 lety +1

    In what country is Whistler?

  • @garpur44
    @garpur44 Před 8 lety

    No worries, I find it a bit more immersive if you are riding on your own.
    Like a say, just a suggestion this was our latest ride, always try and get a few angles
    m.pinkbike.com/video/440312/
    That trail is Whistler looked awesome by the way

  • @freedivingadventures3642
    @freedivingadventures3642 Před 8 lety +1

    long track!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      So many long trails in Whistler! It's great!

    • @freedivingadventures3642
      @freedivingadventures3642 Před 8 lety +1

      im australian. Ive watched a lot of whistler videos, this is one of the best out there

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +1

      +._Apex_ I appreciate the vote of confidence, but there are plenty tricks of the trade I still have to learn! And then some!

  • @jamesanderson2624
    @jamesanderson2624 Před 8 lety +1

    I've got those gloves

  • @chookieyoutubes3222
    @chookieyoutubes3222 Před 8 lety

    How much does it cost and where is whistler

    • @DouglasGardnerTV
      @DouglasGardnerTV Před 8 lety

      $67/day for a lift ticket, and $140/day if you need a bike rental

    • @YassidMartinez
      @YassidMartinez Před 7 lety

      +Douglas Gardner do you need a lift ticket ?

    • @DouglasGardnerTV
      @DouglasGardnerTV Před 7 lety

      Yassid Martinez unless you want to bike up

    • @YassidMartinez
      @YassidMartinez Před 7 lety

      Douglas Gardner can you ride your car up there or is it lift access only?

    • @DouglasGardnerTV
      @DouglasGardnerTV Před 7 lety

      Yassid Martinez nope it's lift only

  • @therealdadowbc8685
    @therealdadowbc8685 Před 8 lety +1

    Un po più piano no?

  • @endurotruckererniedesjardins

    sorry not vee. it's zee that is next down from saint

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +Ernie Desjardins I don't think you can go wrong with those either from what I've heard?

  • @ethanvincent7910
    @ethanvincent7910 Před 8 lety

    The amount of squeakiness in this video is too damn high

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      rookie mistake tbh. The next round if videos will be of a much higher quality.

  • @laxsr2k6
    @laxsr2k6 Před 8 lety +1

    Cool trail, but is this really what is considered technical in Whistler? Cause that's not really even "east coast technical."

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety

      +laxsr2k6 yeah it's definitely a tech trail albeit one of the more 'flowier' tech trails. I think it's fair to say the go pro doesn't give the true perspective of the rocks/roots etc.

  • @maza6985
    @maza6985 Před 7 lety

    Aren't your hands sore?;)

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      +Tr1gg3r Channel they do get sore for sure ;-)

  • @mhcthebest95
    @mhcthebest95 Před 7 lety +1

    Hey man. One thing I Think would improve your video, would be some Music in the background. Keep it up!

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      Thanks for the suggestion! I was just learning how to put videos together at this point so I didn't have much of an idea how to do much at all tbh. Check out some of the newer videos I've made this summer. Most include a fair amount of music!

    • @markmulkerrin
      @markmulkerrin Před 7 lety

      great line! the couple times the video dropped a few frames which ends up looking like it freezes for a split second, that is almost always due to the sd card not being fast enough for the camera.

    • @mtbrider6119
      @mtbrider6119 Před 7 lety +1

      I prefer no music. I'd rather hear the sound of the suspension and the hits on the trail, and the wind, etc.

  • @Jay-333
    @Jay-333 Před 7 lety

    squeaky head cam spoilt this😢

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 7 lety

      yeah - I didn't have a clue how to use the GoPro or how to properly use the mounts on a lot of these earlier videos. Definitely a learning curve there and when you compare to my more recent videos the results are obvious with way BETTER video and audio. Thanks for watching regardless!

  • @seven11-961
    @seven11-961 Před 6 lety

    that clickbait

  • @kekskuhlp8372
    @kekskuhlp8372 Před 6 lety

    Clickbait

  • @trekoke1549
    @trekoke1549 Před 8 lety +1

    ennuyant

    • @juje215
      @juje215 Před 8 lety

      +alban alleon Agreed

  • @rac__coon
    @rac__coon Před 6 lety

    at least clean ur bike a bit XD

  • @RyanQuintanapolymath
    @RyanQuintanapolymath Před 8 lety +1

    your camera jumps are annoying

    • @Whitesnake2
      @Whitesnake2  Před 8 lety +2

      There is a lot on this video that was not ideal. I've refined the recording process since then considerably as I've actually learned about the GoPro. You should check out one of the new videos to compare -> czcams.com/video/r8I2BDmjT28/video.html

    • @mickdundee4638
      @mickdundee4638 Před 8 lety +5

      Your comment is annoying

  • @prerunnersandbmx5824
    @prerunnersandbmx5824 Před 7 lety

    your bike doesn't sound to good

    • @providore222
      @providore222 Před 7 lety +2

      its the camera moving inside its mount

  • @DjHeisseMoewe
    @DjHeisseMoewe Před 8 lety

    that was boring

  • @philipraposo8324
    @philipraposo8324 Před 7 lety +1

    I ride faster and more tech on my hardtail. way to slow, no boost, bad line choices.

    • @pkundrat
      @pkundrat Před 7 lety +3

      Thats cool - where is that video of yours?

    • @iamhung9384
      @iamhung9384 Před 7 lety

      Gimme proof.

  • @marcusscofield965
    @marcusscofield965 Před 7 lety +3

    exciting.. not...

    • @slappers123
      @slappers123 Před 7 lety +12

      Marcus Scofield you obviously don't downhill...