You dont need to know what it is, you only need to know what it feels like, you can imagine the rest. It feels like a jrpg. Its not darksouls at all. Theres bubbly loli and chrono trigger plot. Shibuya wanted to be straight forward and therefore the sacrifice of subtlety.. We would all hate it.
Something to do with a little girl emerald herald and time travel. He also wanted to be more obtuse in the plot according to the interviews he gave. I imagine it would had been a lot more like a story game than dark souls 1 was
@@red-dm1tl If it was the quality of Aldia's dialogue I wouldnt have minded. Aldia and Vendric are some of the few npcs in the series that I actually like listening to for what they have to say that isnt some joke.
@@NisseDood See the thing is Aldia was entirely created and added by SotFS. He wasnt in the base game. And there's no cut content afaik to imply he was ever intended to, just like the DLC's they're all from Tanimura's direction. So yeah if anything it seems Shibuya's original concept would have been a more convoluted plot with more straightforward RPG elements/aesthetic. Like Evergrace or Lost Kingdoms. Then they realized that sucked, and they tried to mesh that convoluted plot and world elements with a darker, more demons souls-y design concept. Then that failed too and Tanimura took over. Then SoTFS.
I can't believe I never noticed the design similarities between Creighton and Benheart. makes sense. I always thought both of these quests felt incredibly unrealized.
Favorite part about that is when Cale the cartographer talks about the "serial killer from Mirrah". Clearly sort of painting Creighton as the one in the wrong, until you realize that he isn't the only one wearing Mirrah armor. He kinda makes it clear he's talking about someone whos name starts with a C and not a B, but I still like to believe that Cale's story isn't as damning as he makes it sound.
The severely time constrained development cycle of DS2 and the ‘unique departure yet oddly familiar but definitely not for everyone’ result we got really reminds me of the Majora’s Mask situation.
As a big fan of Peter Serafinowicz I always wanted to know more about Pate's lore, thanks for uploading this. To my British ears it really sounds like Creighton is just saying Pate in a london-ish accent, and the connection to Benhart is cool
Great video! One thing I have noticed, when summoning Creighton in Huntsman's Copse, for just a second he will hold his axe over his shoulder like how Benhart holds his moonlight sword. So, that might confirm that Creighton was originally going to have the moonlight sword at some point.
I think it was probably for the best that Patches was replaced with Pate in the final version. The overarching themes in the Pate/Creighton quest is not knowing who to trust and who really betrayed the other, which would have been undercut somewhat if it was Patches, a known backstabber/cliff kicker from the previous games.
With Patches you're at least happy to see him. You almost *want* him to betray you, just like the good old days in DeS and DS1. Pate and Creighton both just give me shifty murderer vibes, and I say that as someone whose favorite installment is DS2.
i was confused how saulden fit into this but when u mentioned it, knowing how From reuse ideas and concepts in future gamse, i bet patches was meant to at least temporarily dress as saulden after his death, maybe he would have thrown him down a well similar to ds3, if it werent for the dead saulden being posed as if laying against a wall id have guessed he might have originally been the dead hollow with an estus flask shard inside the small well in majula
My suspicions on their armour sets feels vindicated! Another interesting factoid of the past: One of the pre-rendered, and very early videos for Dark Souls 2, featured the player character fighting a gank squad of guys wearing Creighton's set in the area from the opening cinematic. The place where the fireflies are before the character plunges into the portal to Drangleic. That video had some nice shots of the original manikin mask too. I would have loved to have seen Saulden disappear, just for Patches/Pate to be wearing his armour later on. And perhaps Pate would have eventually lured Benhart into a trap, which led to Creighton to follow through with his quest as per the game, with Patches leaving the bluemoon sword in the chest? Another fun fact: the "hart" part of Benhart, is an old english word for "stag". Very appropriate for his armour's crest.
The possibility Pate's name was supposed to be more "Pait" and not just an accent is neat. I wonder if the event of Pate giving you the hard leather set was apart of the original plan and might've been connected to Saulden going hollow... Perhaps then that'd be when Pate changes to a different armor set? It's all just fun to think about.
I see, so based on the network test dialogue it seems originally Pait *did* trigger the trap in the Forest of the Fallen Giant. I thought it couldn't be a coincidence that there was no visible trigger source in the next area. The gate also only triggers when you step at places that it is impossible to get a view of Pate with the camera at the same time to see what he was doing.
The Intro just makes we want to find the 7 Dragonballs so Tanimura can finish the DS2 he wanted to make Edit: Holy shit i did not know Peter Serafinowicz voice Pate 2nd Edit: Holy shit now I'm actually contemplating searching the fucking Dragonballs 3rd Edit: Amazing video
I really enjoy your narration of this video! I hope to see more like this in the future. Cut content/datamining videos with narration always make them even more engaging for me, especially when it's a voice as relaxing to listen to as yours.
This made me wonder, what if Benhart is actually a future version of Creighton? Or Creighton the past version of Benhart? After all we have a lot of cut content that eludes to this time-travel mechanic with characters like the Emerald Herald having a younger version and so on.
@@moonlight_ruin Or alternately that's just how he introduces himself to the player to explain away how he knows so much about Creighton and their similar features.
Taking into account the names in the files, the unused animation for Creighton with the Moonlight Sword/ Blue Moon Sword (no idea which it is in the video) and the connection between these three characters who were developed basically simultaneously, I'd hazard a guess their story in the game would have been something along these lines: Benhart and Creighton are father and son respectively, who came to Drangleic for the same purpose that Benhart has in the final game: to fight against strong creatures and become stronger. Benhart is doing it out of a simple desire to become stronger and nothing else, bur Creighton wants to prove himself to his father, to show that he is worthy of inhereting the Blue Moon Sword. Things go normally until they come across Pate. He presents himself as a normal guy and offers to help them. Eventually his "help" leads to a situation in which Creighton and Benhart are trapped with multiple enemies around them because of Pate. This leads to Creighton's need to prove himself to put himself in danger, which ends up with Benhart giving up his life to save his son. Benhart dies, Creighton is left in a situation where he barely can move and witnesses Pate come to him after the betrayal, take Benhart's sword and leave him behind. This then leads to Creighton's absolute hatred for Pate (that's where the Avenging Warrior comes from), while also allowing the player to meet Pate before Creighton ever does. After that, a similar situation ensues, with Creighton confronting Pate and getting the sword back. After all of this, not wanting the weapon due to it reminding him of his late father, he gifts it to you, a worthy warrior. Then, to really hit you with that tragic irony, speaking with Maughlin or Magerold leads to you discovering that this "legendary weapon" that lead to the death of two people and the destruction of the spirit of one other, was nothing more than a replica, really cementing how futile the entire situation had been from the beginning. I would have quite liked to see this story unfold, since Pate's and Creighton's quest in the game as it is right now is one of the least interesting character wise, with all of it coming from the ambiguity of "who really is the worse one of the two?" but not much else. If it had been as I wrote, it would have probably been fondly remembered as one of the more tragic quests in Souls alongside Lucatiel's, Sieglinde and Siegmeyer"s or even Lapp's but alas, DS2 wasn't given the time it needed. I still dream of a world in which DS2 had the time it needed and it didn't have to be the black sheep of the series.
An amazing analyzes. In the end, the quest is still one of the most memorable, so the spirit of the original idea lives on. I still think the reason why Maughlin and Magerold go to great lengths to tell you the sword is fake is a product of repurposing Benhart's model, since something similar happens to his armor set in the sense that it doesn't have any lore whatsoever.
One day we'll get a ds2 alpha leak hopefully. Also, I noticed the Soul Reaver 2 soundtrack you used. I see you are a man of culture. What do you make of that ds2 trailer where a cgi faraam knight kills a group of Mirrah soldiers?
Other strange details, that add more mistery: - Creig claims he's from Mirrah, while Ben is of Jugo (it's in his name). - Cale (Map guy) says that Creig (or Pait) is a murderer, and Creig's mask and the leather set shenanigan confirms this. Cale also happens to have a Mirrag armor he bought or something. All of this doesn't add up
what if pate is like lapp, a persona that patches become after losing his memories, with pate he retains his betraying traits but doesnt remember his name, then in dark souls 3 pate becomes patches again by healing himself using the statue of velka or purging stones. Because if i remember correctly there is no way to restore your humanity besides human effigies in ds2, there are rings that can reduce the effects or mask them but not cure them.
One of the few examples where I feel that the cut version wasn't as good as the final quest. Part of the thing that makes the two interesting is that its genuinely hard to tell who's telling the truth and who's a psychopath. Lends to a lot of intrigue and discussion that you just couldn't get out of someone trying to avenge their father. Final version felt like the really good kind of indirect storytelling dark souls always strives for. Deeper than the surface level, but not so vague that it's meaningless.
Creighton and Bernheardt could've been hte same person, DS2 had a Time travel plot at one point.. He Could've found the sword young, and had it while old. Time stuff.. Bleh
I’ve noticed that most of the NPC in Ds2 don’t have tragic arcs, the only one to think of was Lucatiel. Yep. You only fought one hallowed noticeable NPC.
TO this day, I would like to find Shibuya and ask what his original idea was
Same.
You dont need to know what it is, you only need to know what it feels like, you can imagine the rest.
It feels like a jrpg. Its not darksouls at all. Theres bubbly loli and chrono trigger plot. Shibuya wanted to be straight forward and therefore the sacrifice of subtlety.. We would all hate it.
Something to do with a little girl emerald herald and time travel. He also wanted to be more obtuse in the plot according to the interviews he gave. I imagine it would had been a lot more like a story game than dark souls 1 was
@@red-dm1tl If it was the quality of Aldia's dialogue I wouldnt have minded. Aldia and Vendric are some of the few npcs in the series that I actually like listening to for what they have to say that isnt some joke.
@@NisseDood See the thing is Aldia was entirely created and added by SotFS. He wasnt in the base game. And there's no cut content afaik to imply he was ever intended to, just like the DLC's they're all from Tanimura's direction. So yeah if anything it seems Shibuya's original concept would have been a more convoluted plot with more straightforward RPG elements/aesthetic. Like Evergrace or Lost Kingdoms. Then they realized that sucked, and they tried to mesh that convoluted plot and world elements with a darker, more demons souls-y design concept. Then that failed too and Tanimura took over. Then SoTFS.
I can't believe I never noticed the design similarities between Creighton and Benheart. makes sense. I always thought both of these quests felt incredibly unrealized.
Favorite part about that is when Cale the cartographer talks about the "serial killer from Mirrah". Clearly sort of painting Creighton as the one in the wrong, until you realize that he isn't the only one wearing Mirrah armor. He kinda makes it clear he's talking about someone whos name starts with a C and not a B, but I still like to believe that Cale's story isn't as damning as he makes it sound.
The severely time constrained development cycle of DS2 and the ‘unique departure yet oddly familiar but definitely not for everyone’ result we got really reminds me of the Majora’s Mask situation.
As a big fan of Peter Serafinowicz I always wanted to know more about Pate's lore, thanks for uploading this. To my British ears it really sounds like Creighton is just saying Pate in a london-ish accent, and the connection to Benhart is cool
great video, really interesting topic. Nice hearing you talk.
My voice is not as nice as yours, but thanks.
@@moonlight_ruin I don't know about that but thank you
Great video! One thing I have noticed, when summoning Creighton in Huntsman's Copse, for just a second he will hold his axe over his shoulder like how Benhart holds his moonlight sword. So, that might confirm that Creighton was originally going to have the moonlight sword at some point.
Considering that Creighton being a summon was added only in scholar I doubt it
I think it was probably for the best that Patches was replaced with Pate in the final version. The overarching themes in the Pate/Creighton quest is not knowing who to trust and who really betrayed the other, which would have been undercut somewhat if it was Patches, a known backstabber/cliff kicker from the previous games.
With Patches you're at least happy to see him. You almost *want* him to betray you, just like the good old days in DeS and DS1. Pate and Creighton both just give me shifty murderer vibes, and I say that as someone whose favorite installment is DS2.
I really like the few "family" relationships that exist in the Souls saga. Great video Moon, as always!
There is one. It's Chloanne and her father. They don't recognize each other and it's really tragic.
@@minespatch You are right, I had completely forgotten. What a shame 🤣
@@pooloo732 It's a subtle bit of writing that's easily overlooked.
@@minespatch He does recognize her though and is happy she's alive. He just doesn't tell her.
@@517342 I forgot about that. IT's still tragic.
i was confused how saulden fit into this but when u mentioned it, knowing how From reuse ideas and concepts in future gamse, i bet patches was meant to at least temporarily dress as saulden after his death, maybe he would have thrown him down a well similar to ds3, if it werent for the dead saulden being posed as if laying against a wall id have guessed he might have originally been the dead hollow with an estus flask shard inside the small well in majula
Forget if that was the case or not, that's an amazing idea!
My suspicions on their armour sets feels vindicated! Another interesting factoid of the past: One of the pre-rendered, and very early videos for Dark Souls 2, featured the player character fighting a gank squad of guys wearing Creighton's set in the area from the opening cinematic. The place where the fireflies are before the character plunges into the portal to Drangleic. That video had some nice shots of the original manikin mask too.
I would have loved to have seen Saulden disappear, just for Patches/Pate to be wearing his armour later on. And perhaps Pate would have eventually lured Benhart into a trap, which led to Creighton to follow through with his quest as per the game, with Patches leaving the bluemoon sword in the chest?
Another fun fact: the "hart" part of Benhart, is an old english word for "stag". Very appropriate for his armour's crest.
The possibility Pate's name was supposed to be more "Pait" and not just an accent is neat. I wonder if the event of Pate giving you the hard leather set was apart of the original plan and might've been connected to Saulden going hollow... Perhaps then that'd be when Pate changes to a different armor set? It's all just fun to think about.
Heyo Crappy. 😆
@@minespatch Hiya 🙌
heyoooooooooo@@Crappy9922
I hope you tackle Lucatiel and the bellkeeper in the future. Thanks for covering this less focused trivia.
I see, so based on the network test dialogue it seems originally Pait *did* trigger the trap in the Forest of the Fallen Giant. I thought it couldn't be a coincidence that there was no visible trigger source in the next area. The gate also only triggers when you step at places that it is impossible to get a view of Pate with the camera at the same time to see what he was doing.
Interesting video, I was waiting for someone to talk about these two for a while now 😅
The Intro just makes we want to find the 7 Dragonballs so Tanimura can finish the DS2 he wanted to make
Edit: Holy shit i did not know Peter Serafinowicz voice Pate
2nd Edit: Holy shit now I'm actually contemplating searching the fucking Dragonballs
3rd Edit: Amazing video
I really enjoy your narration of this video! I hope to see more like this in the future. Cut content/datamining videos with narration always make them even more engaging for me, especially when it's a voice as relaxing to listen to as yours.
Nice job on this, they're such interestingly reworked characters.
This made me wonder, what if Benhart is actually a future version of Creighton? Or Creighton the past version of Benhart? After all we have a lot of cut content that eludes to this time-travel mechanic with characters like the Emerald Herald having a younger version and so on.
benharts name is father of avenging warrior, aka creighton, so nah
That was my first thought, but it's clear that Benhart was supposed to be Creighton's father.
@@moonlight_ruin Or alternately that's just how he introduces himself to the player to explain away how he knows so much about Creighton and their similar features.
Taking into account the names in the files, the unused animation for Creighton with the Moonlight Sword/ Blue Moon Sword (no idea which it is in the video) and the connection between these three characters who were developed basically simultaneously, I'd hazard a guess their story in the game would have been something along these lines:
Benhart and Creighton are father and son respectively, who came to Drangleic for the same purpose that Benhart has in the final game: to fight against strong creatures and become stronger. Benhart is doing it out of a simple desire to become stronger and nothing else, bur Creighton wants to prove himself to his father, to show that he is worthy of inhereting the Blue Moon Sword. Things go normally until they come across Pate. He presents himself as a normal guy and offers to help them. Eventually his "help" leads to a situation in which Creighton and Benhart are trapped with multiple enemies around them because of Pate. This leads to Creighton's need to prove himself to put himself in danger, which ends up with Benhart giving up his life to save his son. Benhart dies, Creighton is left in a situation where he barely can move and witnesses Pate come to him after the betrayal, take Benhart's sword and leave him behind. This then leads to Creighton's absolute hatred for Pate (that's where the Avenging Warrior comes from), while also allowing the player to meet Pate before Creighton ever does. After that, a similar situation ensues, with Creighton confronting Pate and getting the sword back. After all of this, not wanting the weapon due to it reminding him of his late father, he gifts it to you, a worthy warrior. Then, to really hit you with that tragic irony, speaking with Maughlin or Magerold leads to you discovering that this "legendary weapon" that lead to the death of two people and the destruction of the spirit of one other, was nothing more than a replica, really cementing how futile the entire situation had been from the beginning.
I would have quite liked to see this story unfold, since Pate's and Creighton's quest in the game as it is right now is one of the least interesting character wise, with all of it coming from the ambiguity of "who really is the worse one of the two?" but not much else. If it had been as I wrote, it would have probably been fondly remembered as one of the more tragic quests in Souls alongside Lucatiel's, Sieglinde and Siegmeyer"s or even Lapp's but alas, DS2 wasn't given the time it needed. I still dream of a world in which DS2 had the time it needed and it didn't have to be the black sheep of the series.
An amazing analyzes.
In the end, the quest is still one of the most memorable, so the spirit of the original idea lives on.
I still think the reason why Maughlin and Magerold go to great lengths to tell you the sword is fake is a product of repurposing Benhart's model, since something similar happens to his armor set in the sense that it doesn't have any lore whatsoever.
Super great information paired with an amazing SotC soundtrack. ! so interesting how Tanimura saved this mf game!
One day we'll get a ds2 alpha leak hopefully. Also, I noticed the Soul Reaver 2 soundtrack you used. I see you are a man of culture.
What do you make of that ds2 trailer where a cgi faraam knight kills a group of Mirrah soldiers?
At the moment, just cool cgi. Now, if you find that E3 DS2 leak and there is info about it, that's another story. 😁
Other strange details, that add more mistery:
- Creig claims he's from Mirrah, while Ben is of Jugo (it's in his name).
- Cale (Map guy) says that Creig (or Pait) is a murderer, and Creig's mask and the leather set shenanigan confirms this. Cale also happens to have a Mirrag armor he bought or something.
All of this doesn't add up
Ben traveled from Jugo to Mirrah, so this is why they both has similar sets.
what if pate is like lapp, a persona that patches become after losing his memories, with pate he retains his betraying traits but doesnt remember his name, then in dark souls 3 pate becomes patches again by healing himself using the statue of velka or purging stones. Because if i remember correctly there is no way to restore your humanity besides human effigies in ds2, there are rings that can reduce the effects or mask them but not cure them.
One of the few examples where I feel that the cut version wasn't as good as the final quest. Part of the thing that makes the two interesting is that its genuinely hard to tell who's telling the truth and who's a psychopath. Lends to a lot of intrigue and discussion that you just couldn't get out of someone trying to avenge their father. Final version felt like the really good kind of indirect storytelling dark souls always strives for. Deeper than the surface level, but not so vague that it's meaningless.
A Dark Souls 2... #2 could have been interesting
thank u for this video man
Loved the video so much! Thanks for covering this. By the way, are you european? You have a certain accent!
I feel like Peter was told some things only he would know. Considering he’s a big dark souls fan I hope he could spill the beans one day lol
Great write up and video. Thank you
4:29 i spat out my breakfast!!
when read the lore out of id numbers ... 🤯
Interesing!
Wasn't there there also a cut achievement icon portraying Creighton with Bluemoon Sword?
This was interesting. Kudos for the Soul Reaver Soundtrack.
Nice! I always like a little speculation ...
Creighton and Bernheardt could've been hte same person, DS2 had a Time travel plot at one point.. He Could've found the sword young, and had it while old. Time stuff.. Bleh
Fun video my friend!
great video ,don't give up skeleton
💀
I’ve noticed that most of the NPC in Ds2 don’t have tragic arcs, the only one to think of was Lucatiel. Yep. You only fought one hallowed noticeable NPC.
Saulden is the only Crestfallen character that survives.
Loved this, thank you!
Pate being Patches, or at least derived from Patches seems obvious, but Creighton has always seemed to be the worse one to me.
killed it man. do you plan on making similar voiced videos?
Perhaps. Would be a good idea for longer videos.
Pate-ches.
I think this is more accurate than you give yourself credit for.
Why change the spelling of the name to Pate? its almost as though they backpedaled the not patches thing...