Dark Souls 2 Dissected #3 - How The Gutter Got Gutted
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- We begin our exploration of the prototype / cut map content of Dark Souls II. This episode takes a close look specifically at unused maps for The Gutter and Grave of Saints.
/ illusorywall
0:00 - Greetings
2:01 - Introduction to the Early Gutter
10:35 - The Garbage Pillars
14:35 - Early Grave of Saints & More
30:39 - Recap, Loose Ends & Lore
37:47 - Credits
Here you can find most of my previous explorations into Dark Souls 2's early map files, this was all done with help from Demon's Lantern back in the day-
illusorywall.tumblr.com/tagge... - Hry
13:34 - After all these years, we finally have an answer about the "car tire" of the Gutter garbage pillars! I was right, it was a bench with non-functional wheels. :p
twitter.com/illusorywall/status/1513677801781710850
Gg
I thought it was just an Easter egg? Isn't there a can of soda and one other out of place thing.
@@A_Black_Sheep94 They were both removed from SotFS, so it seems accidental (the can of Heineken is shown here in the video as well). Also since it's not really a car tire in the first place that'd be an odd easter egg; It seems that they didn't want people looking at it and mistaking it for a modern tire. :)
Imo it looks like a quick asset bodge to mock up a chariot. Definitely supposed to be replaced either way tho
MoonLight un capo como siempre
If you zoom the camera far enough out you can see that the entirety of the Dark Souls II world is inside of a comically large barrel
Drangleic is what happens when you ferment your ale for so long that the yeast evolves and starts building kingdoms?
@@JeremyComans Its called "germ CULTURE" for a reason
Assuming you were being serious: I have seen similarly weird things being done in games before actually. My guess is that it's a safeguard to avoid visual glitches in the sky if there are holes in the skybox. This is usually called the "hall of mirrors" effect, and happens if you try to build a level in a map editor of most games, and you forgot to make a skybox. The game engine can't make sense of being asked to render "literally nothing", and so it just makes a feedback loop of trails lf every rendered frame. Having literally anything visible between you and the void fixes this. If there's a tiny gap in the skybox though, you will have that effect through just that hole. That's where the barrel comes in, if this is indeed why.
It looks like a barrel, but if you zoom out a little more, it's a tankard held by a giant Gavlan.
@@MFKitten Yeah, a lesson that Bethesda failed to grasp with Fallout 4, where the after-images pop up brilliant white in just about every interior location. All they had to do was put a flat, black box texture out of bounds, but nope...
I love the idea of a sunken, upside-down city whose undead residents tried desperately to build upwards and escape the darkness of the Black Gulch. That tavern is very appealing because the simplified Gutter lacks any memorable communal living spaces that would have made it feel like a decrepit undead settlement, rather than a collection of generic scaffolds floating in a black void.
Blighttown did pretty much the exact same thing
@@littlemoth4956 exactly!! Blighttown always intrigued me, after all, what was it all about? It and the depths were always the most fascinating areas, for me, due to the lack of theories and possible explanations on their regard.
I think it was on the Tales by the Bonfire Chanel that I heard it was actually a mining hub. It would explain the back tunnel and the barbarians with boulders and pickaxes, and also the titanite dropping leeches.
Also, slabs are peeled from arch trees, and Blighttown is caught between two of them. I don’t know how to treat this (in fact, I really think it’s just a coincidence), but it’s nice to have it pointed out.
@@littlemoth4956 exactly!! Blighttown always intrigued me, after all, what was it all about? It and the depths were always the most fascinating areas, for me, due to the lack of theories and possible explanations on their regard.
I think it was on the Tales by the Bonfire Chanel that I heard it was actually a mining hub. It would explain the back tunnel and the barbarians with boulders and pickaxes, and also the titanite dropping leeches.
Also, slabs are peeled from arch trees, and Blighttown is caught between two of them. I don’t know how to treat this (in fact, I really think it’s just a coincidence), but it’s nice to have it pointed out.
But that's exactly how the Gutter turned out. A bunch of unwanted, discarded beings building upwards trying to reach the surface, all the while building those venomous statues to spite (no pun intended) the Emerald Herald.
A tavern would have added too much humanity to a setting that's supposed to look inhuman
@@matheuscruz8574 Doesn't really look like that due to the entire thing being on comically tall stilts from the void
This is literally the best level design I've seen in Dark Souls 2. It's so fucking pretty and detailed, instead of just... A hole in the ground where things happened to end up.
This would moreso explain why the Rat Cov. leader is so pissed about "humans building underground". Obviously the Gutter was built, but having a "thriving" society making the best of their situation below the covenant makes it all the more understandable that he'd be pissed off. This is so cool.
The "wheel" in the texture was Gavlan's. He lost it, and that's why he speaks about it all the time :D
"Gavlan wheel? Gavlan Deal." Makes much more sense now.
OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH
When he says "Gavlan wheel? Gavlan deal." he means that he's dealing with the loss of his beloved wheel :(
I wonder if the wheel thing carried over to bloodborne in the implementation of Logarius's Wheel.
Always thought it was in reference to “Wheeling and Dealing” - bartering on the road, like a Nomad merchant.
Gavlaan selling poison moss and poison knives/arrows makes a lot more sense now!
Indeed
When he said climbing the next ladder i kinda expected him to say"we find yet another bigger barrel"
plot twist, the entire gutter is one giant barrel
"Yo can i get some estus?"
"Only a barrel-ful"
The statue of Nashandra couldve meant the people revolted and threw her statue down the Gutter cause they didnt want her since the Gutter is where they threw the things they didnt want.
Or perhaps that area is below where the giant's attacked the castle, something akin to what happens at the fort in the Forest of the Fallen Giants.
@@lurker7808 lub
it probably means that nashandra was already roaming in the past, searching for a monarch to use. the tomb of saints and the gutter are places of old, from before vendrick created drangleic. tbh that doesn't explain why there would be a statue of vendrick there, but it's all cut content, sooo
@@AndrewTheUltraBoss99 Doesn't mean a bit of theorycrafting can't happen. We just can't take it as cannon. I like your idea and perhaps this was a statue of a lady that Nashandra saw and copied the look of?
Have you heard the story of Dark Nashandra the Wise? It's not a story the hollows could tell you. She had powers so strong, she could influence even a near-true monarch to create want. But she could never rule by herself, and her statue was tossed into the Gutter. Ironic... She could make others want everything... except herself.
The full texture of the garbage pillars reminds me of looking at an I Spy book.
Like if Dali did an eye spy book. Which, now i really wish he did
Yeah on my first run I thought I glitches the map cause of how ugly those pillars were
Karl Marx that would have been awesome
Reminds me of _Getting Over It,_ where levels were deliberately assembled from arbitrary assemblages of default assets.
Where's waldo
Imagine how heartbreaking it must've been to work on ideas this detailed for over a year, only to scrap most of it. All that's left is a reductive, cobbled together version of what could be salvaged. It's clear the Dark Souls 2 team had talent & creativity, which is why it's such a bummer the final game turned out the way it did.
Exactly, just look at the PvP which somehow is still the best in the series (ADP and Soul Memory sucked though), not even elden ring has the same balance and build variety as DS2 even though it has the power of ashes of war and flashy spells.
DS3's PvP and build variety is literally a huge downgrade from DS2.
@@Jordan-im9jr I dont think that Ds2 surpasses ER in build variety and quality. There is a big difference in a build being viable and a build being possible.
@@deadmeme9980 I'm considering viability on this one though, it's getting better which is awesome
@@Jordan-im9jr ds2 build variety - big sword
Ds3 build variety - big sword
Elden ring build variety - almost anything since bosses kill you in 1-2 hits and big sword does less damage than a kitana and is twice as slow
@@Jordan-im9jr How ds2 has more build variety ?
illusory wall: Yeah, I don't like to hype cut content, it was cut for a reason after all...
also illusory wall: ...but holy crap, check how awesome is this shit!
yeah but for ds2 i think maybe it was scrapped because it was too ambitious, not scrapped because it was bad.
I believe it was cut mainly because the PS3 and Xbox 360 couldn't handle it honestly in my opinion from software should have canceled the PS3 and Xbox 360 version and made it for the Xbox One and PS4 that way they didn't have to compromise their vision for Hardware limitations
@@sathlasdalaraynidridlendar6875
Looking back, the original intended game that Dark Souls 2 was initially trying to be would have caused consoles to explode and PCs to sizzle into ashes. It actually highly resembled Elden Ring to an uncanny extent, but during a time when no system outside of NASA's supercomputers could feasibly run a game of that caliber.
@@joshuakim5240 So in a way, Elden Ring is more a successor to DS2 in spirit?
I knew they took a lot of things from DS2 that made it better than DS1 because people begged and pleaded for them to be added to DS3, but I didn't know the extent of the influence that DS2 had on Elden Ring.
@@razztastic Yui Tanimura was the co-director for both Dark Souls 2 and Elden Ring. I think it's his influence that you're actually seeing.
Something really unique about that bar room. You don't really get the sense of many (any?) 'recreational' communal areas anywhere else in the series IIRC.
Kitchens occasionally where I assume food would be served (the estus soup room comes to mind). And the presence of beer implies bars but I agree, it's the only area I can recall has a comfortable, inviting presence.
No mans warf has a few houses and I think is does have a bar
That's why I like the Anor Londo rooms in ds1. Its got beds and paintings, and feels like old english mansions I used to visit.
@@fiiive2the5ix Well if its a comfortable, inviting presence then I can think of two of them in DS1.
Michael W fpstown and painted world of bonewheel?
Moving around an unfinished area with a black void constantly surrounding you will never not creep me out.
yo same, my friends don't get it but i get chills & anxiety out of bounds in video games. also deep water in video games, like if you were to fly into the ocean in majula i'd be fcking done
@@omfgacceptmyname I'm amazed I can play Subnautica at all. I flipped my lid when I tried to explore and wound up in the Dead Zone without realizing it.
@@omfgacceptmyname i thought i was the only one
Kind of like the Chasm of the Abyss, although that level is great and finished. I find it absolutely terrifying
Lol this happened to me as a child when i was playing Rygar for the the NES. I jumped over the Eruga boss and fell through the map the screen went entirely sky blue. it was like sky diving but in reverse, instead of falling towards earth i was falling from earth. An inifinte light blue void and that game had the Super Mario Bros 2 animation when you fall the screen pans down so i was just falling forever AND I COULD STILL HEAR THE BOSS! shyt f*cked me up 😳
This is what i dislike about places like the gutter and blight town the most; its the fact that there are no buildings, houses, bars, anything like that. Of course most of the enemies are either mindless undead or animals, but having a ton of scaffolding with no actual rooms or buildings makes the areas feel so void of needed flavor. It could be ramshackled huts and rooms all piled ontop of eachother and connected by rickety scaffolding, not just ladders and walkways
Imma be fair with The Gutter: It's The Gutter. The lowest level possible. It makes sense there's little to nothing there, and there are also some """apartments""" on the scaffoldings. But yeah, other than that, it feels very void. Blighttown is even worse on that aspect, it's literally a town without the fucking town
@@marcelovieira519 maybe the "town" part in Blighttown is just a way people in Lordran decided to call it for no reason in particular.
I remember some form of aqueduct though, where you can lit a bonfire; perhaps some kind of settlement truly existed in Blighttown before?
Also, despite being void I still find Blighttown to be better connected with the other areas than the Gutter with the rest of DS2. It's f*cked like everything below the Firelink and it gets progressively worse
@@enzomonteiro3551 Oh, it absolutely is. I was only joking because Blighttown doesn't have a town lol
13:50 that heineken label is lore accurate since heineken itself also tastes like toxic cave sludge ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I feel like dark souls 2 was crazy ambitious and they truly wanted to make a sprawling world with super unique towns. We can only dream what the game would be like if it got the love and time it deserved 😭😭😭
Yeah I wan't to see them re-imagine DS 2. Not just do one or two things new like the DS 1 Remaster but make the game like they originally imagined without time or money constraints (well obviosly they would have constraints but not like they had with DS 2.)
elden souls 2 remake: scholar of the first ring edition
Imagine if their development time weren't cut by half
@@matheusnicaretta Or if they hadn't had half of that time being working on stuff that would mainly get cut.
@@logangoerks236 Things get cut due time restraints and other reasons. The time was only wasted in hindsight not during development
I think the original goal of the gutter was supposed to bring in an "as above, so below," kind of vibe, where those who where tossed into the gutter tried to recreate a sort of society. That obelisk could have literally been a recreation of the one in majula, a crude attempt to bring back the life they once had on the surface.
Edit: To elaborate/bring more evidence, the large bridge could have been a parallel to the bridge in the shaded woods, and the waterwheels (presumably from an early rwndition of harveat valley) could have been tossed in from above. This rwndition of the gutter is larger than any area currently in the game, so I think it might have been a large, decrepit parallel to the entire kingdom of drangleic.
Interesting speculation. It is worth keeping in mind that Majula changed a lot during development and at some point there was an obelisk there. Additionally, harvest valley used to have waterwheels and a body of water nearby but both got scrapped (don't recall why).
well, it is victim of a cataclysm of sorts.
You know, there are modders out there that would love to hear this.
Interesting idea. Reminds me of the two castles in Castlevania SotN.
TheGodHunter Aqueducts are just bridges for water.
Holy fuck. The sewers from leyndell are basically half of the gutter, it's crazy how all their work inspired elden ring
@@DontXtheStream yeah, but ds2 power stancing is better, because you can powerstance different weapon types.
True, and the omens are basically the gwyrm
@@DontXtheStream
I don't see this mentioned often but the sound the giant trolls make in ER sounds almost exactly (if not precisely) the same the giants of DS2.
@@DontXtheStream ds2 power stance is better in ds2 than in elden ring, u may like more ER, dsnt matter, exacty becaus eu need 1.5 the attributes to activate the thing make it even better, evenmore moveset for u, the fact that u can do that with different weapons is not just that, once again, u get even more moveset from it, ds2 ps > er ps
@@DontXtheStream i know it's hard to understand for u.
Imagine how ridiculously good Dark Souls 2 would be if they had the time, money, and the development was smooth sailing
Hey, maybe once Elden Ring comes out we won't have to imagine.
It should be noted that, at the time, the vision for DkS2 was not physically possible to make due to tech limitations. The game was way too ambitious for its time to a fault, as it was basically Elden Ring in most regards on systems that would light on fire if they tried to run Elden Ring, so the game eventually became more compromises than intended content.
@@joshuakim5240 Agree, dark souls 2 experienced a troubled development mostly because restrictions on seventh gen consoles
Just from the cut level shown in this video it's not hard to imagine it will give ps3 a hard time to load this massive level
@@joshuakim5240 Even then, it was planned to be released for the PS4 alongside bloodborne but.. yeah
@@Ryan-nm8pw message from the future. Elden Ring knocked it out of the park
"Cheers, ya mind sellin me some ale?"
"Aye, but only a barrel full."
5:36
and yet, somehow, he fits it into his pocket wiath the 15 or so ultra greatswords he keeps there already
Top notch Irish accent.
H m
Then he pulled out a comically large barrel, funniest shit I’ve ever seen
Imagine ale having buff effect.
Not sure if you know about him, but a DS2 data miner by the name of SanadsK uncovered two unused bosses for the gutter a few years ago, among other boss related things. They were supposed to be a duo, like Ornstein and Smough, one of the presumably being a tank and the other a spell caster. I think their names were the Wight and the Lich, and if one was killed, like O&S, the other would consume his soul. What is most interesting is that when the Wight kills the Lich, he tosses the corpse aside, and you can see it fall into a big chasm, so I speculate that they were fought high up in the gutter
Here it is, for anyone interested :D
czcams.com/video/yfqmt7JQG8Y/video.html
Maybe that's why they put the twin invaders in the Black Gultch with Scholar version
Man, they could have done a cool hidden "phase 3" with the lich reanimating in a deeper zone of the gutter.
@@xLionsxxSmithyx sort of implemented that with the apes in sekiro
Deepest lore
Dark souls 2 deserves a full remake following the original image
They could change what didn't work but restore things like the old gutter and make the gyrm actually have a place and make sense instead of being forgettable enemies in short boring area
I seriously love your idea.
@rika I dont think that devs care about Dark Souls II being bad souls game anymore
@rika I know but people have their opinions and my personal love towards Dark Soul II cannot change the fact that game is unloved by devs and souls community
@rika I bought game 4 times.
no
22:52 Something else that corroborates this dialogue can be found in the Design Works book. Tanimura (the director of ds2) gives a quote on page 205 when answering a question about Majula saying "The hole that leads to the Gutter was originally in another location, but we decided to move that to Majula. It's an area that received a lot of revisions." Although I suspect the second sentence is a remark about Majula itself in this context.
Ooh thanks for finding that! Definitely reinforces what's seen here, and will also be a helpful reference whenever I get around to the world layout discussion.
@@illusorywall You're welcome, thank you for the series!
Perhaps the underground town got repurposed into the majula we got now. Climbing your way from the miserable gutters to the overworld would certainly have a narrative arc to it we dont get from the final ds2 mishmash of setpieces. Perhaps that whole scene where we dive into the swirling black lake wasnt meant to take place before the game but during it
Man, invading in this city would’ve been either verticality galore or eternal hide and seek.
Laughs in Greatbow
deadlines are cool and all, but this brings back so much character to dark souls 2 design that is really unique to the series. even without textures these areas already give that immensity and weight to the world design that is what people play these games for.. argh! remake this someone please!
Definitely. I feel that this is what the final game is severely lacking. Each area in the final game is too self-contained and very straightforward. The scale and thematic cohesion of this whole area is on the level of DS1 level design.
I keep saying DS2 is the only game that really needs a remake tbf.
maybe after the DeS remake Bandai might look at sonys success and try having the same people do a DS2 remake if DeS remake does well.
@@xXLunatikxXlul Tbh all three need remakes, just DS2 needs it the most.
If DS3 got it's remake, for instance, we'd have that bonfire making mechanic, rituals that'd give us access to various modes such as what's essentially a BR mode for pvp, more areas and interconnectivity, day-and-night cycles that'd change which enemies and bosses appear on a given stage etc.
@@thrashingputz5163
DkS1 Remake with completed Lost Izalith, Priscilla as the level up maiden, and reworked Bed of Chaos.
DkS2 Remake with completed Gutter, reworked geography, and no Soul Memory bullshit.
DkS3 Remake with the scrapped bonfire creation mechanic and time cycle modes.
We can only hope that such a future awaits us...if 2020 doesn't pull off a meteor or something just to be an even more dickish year than it already is.
Damn that stacked town, ruins, bar shouldn't have been cut. The level spacing and layout had good vibes
Original gutter is the only part of DS2 that really makes me wonder “what if”. Plenty of other things needed polish or could have been better but this is just so freaking cool.
Eh, this just seems like another blighttown, gutter as we have it now is more in-
“Lacks the Black Gulch entirely”
I take it all back, this version is infinitely superior.
Yeah, i hate Black Gulch too. Its like that poison trap room in Drangleic Castle but longer.
Did you really just say the Gutter is interesting? It literally makes no sense, the structures are nonsense and would serve no purpose. It's pure gameplay design with nothing to flesh out the lore or setting, and has none of the Dark Souls attention to detail. Dark Souls 2 in general lacks the environmental storytelling of other modern From games, but most areas do a better job than the Gutter.
@@Wveth yet it is a fun 3D maze, unlike other mostly linear areas. I liked blighttown too.
Yet, I was really surprised how much more interesting the concept art looks vs what’s in the finished game.
Black Gulch was too simple, but the aesthetic was great, I loved the look of pitch black caverns lined with glowing statues as though placed by something deranged
The mushroom dragon skeleton area seems to be the original form of the Black Gulch though.
Okay that alternate version of the gutter looked amazing, you're right.
The Gutter was such a fun place to invade. Can't even imagine how cool this would have been.
Just think of the sweet bar fights you could have had in that tavern!
Infernoplus I disagree with your opinion about Dark Souls remastered but Dark Souls II has tons of flaws and saying bad things about a game doesn't mean I hate the game I just consider it garbage compared to Dark Souls 1
@@redseagaming7832 nah ds2 was better. Plus op didn't say anything about which ds was better, he just said the gutter could have been great you dunce
Are you sure you just wouldn't complain about it?
@@redseagaming7832 the 2nd half of dark souls 1 is pretty garbage and remastered sucks balls, how could you even support how badly treated the remaster was
So this is a shot in the dark, but going back through No Man's Wharf during Return to Drangleic made me notice something. Along the back wall of the grotto, outside of the playable space, are...stacks of square houses quite similar to the cut Gutter ones. Many of the buildings in the playable space are also more vertically-oriented and a bit more sparse compared to, say, the ones in Tseldora.
Beyond that, Wharf features what can certainly be construed as a tavern with a counter and two enemies sitting around drunk/hung over. And who do we first encounter wheeling and dealing in the Wharf and sipping from his tankard? Gavlan.
Is it possible that Wharf is built out of recycled elements from the unfinished Gutter? Or perhaps there was supposed to be an overt connection between the two spaces?
I was also just reminded that several structures in the Wharf have curved roofs. At first it's easy to assume they're recycled boat hulls, but they look an awful lot like halves of giant barrels to me. Cue X-Files theme.
That's a good catch man
This video goes to show how much direction and structure DS2 could've used.
Also.
GERM
Am I alone in thinking their name was pronounced like Gyerm
@@aphidamas1 that's what i always thought lol
Rather, Tanimura's direction from the start instead of having to scrap Shibuya's nonsense and cobble together what they could out of it
I've always said it as “gurm,” but I don't think there's any official pronunciation.
Its like propaganda maybe.. humans hated them coz they were commisioned to make sewers
What could have been can frequently be haunting... Tis a curse to dwell on such thoughts for too long.
is.. is that a LOTR quote from Gandalf or am I stupid?
So true. I can't think of DS3 anymore without remembering how much awesome cut content could have been included.
@@quandaledingle968
DkS3 is a weird case regarding the Souls games in that had surprisingly little cut content, but rather much of its content was altered and swapped around instead (Yohrm was the tutorial boss, Gundyr was Oceiros, Suhlyvahn was the final boss before Soul of Cinder, Wolnir was the Mound Maker leader, etc). It's weird yet also makes sense seeing the original intended order of the DkS3 bosses since the final product has a strange disparity of boss difficulty going up and down rather than consistently up.
FromSoft really needs to remake DS2, it hurts knowing that it is often considered the worst in the Souls series when there was so much cut potential during development.
Yes please! That's a dream of mine, to see Ds2 at it's finest, fullest finalized.
It's like the whole of Dark Souls II was just...gutted.
Gutted and replaced at the last second.
I kind of wish FROM would start a pet project to restore DS2 to it's original storyline and setting.
I would love to see the "Director's Cut" of this game. I'd gladly buy it a third time.
same. If we ever get a remake where this cut content is further developed and restored into a full product, I would happily by this game for the 3rd time, even at its original retail price or higher.
A directors cut would be great, but it is a bad ideia saying that you will buy a game for a 3 time,most remasters are just a cash grab to make people pay for the same game 2 times, dont give these companies ideias. Dark souls 2, Dark souls 2 arcade edition, Super Dark souls 2, Ultra Dark souls 2.
@@SuperKratosgamer A director's cut would be more than just a remaster like SOTFS. It would be a full on reworking of the game's story and world. They had a chance to build a world truly unique from every other souls game, and in the end they did, but not in the best way.
Let's see how they handle the Demon's Soul remake first.
@@Odinsday Isn't SOTFS objectively worse than the original? Like they cut some good stuff like when the giant spider boss jumps out at you
The Cut version of The Gutter is my new favorite zone
Imagine being the dev given the task of removing the tire and in doing so approving what remained of that asset. Commit message: "Tire concealed; looks good to me."
Ahh. Sinners Rise does have an out of place feel to it with how sewer themed it is. It somehow being connected to the pit and The Gutter makes a lot more sense than The Bastille. Maybe it was supposed to go Heide(there’s a flooded/sewer-y part you know) into Gutter into Sinners Rise/Grave of Saints or something? Heide being connected to some Viking hideout always seemed very weird to me. That area and The Bastille also look very last minute thrown together. Maybe Wharf is based on the town part, aka Gyrm town, from OG Gutter even? That’s why you find Gavlan there?
This game seriously needs a proper documentary where the devs can explain all this. It’s no wonder a lot of the areas look super unfinished, they basically had to scrap tons of stuff and just scramble together something that would work. Still love it, tho.
Maybe the whole game was scrapped in the end? And the levels we finally got were all made after the project was restarted and the ambitions were lowered significantly. They do have a very barebones feel to them.
Heide's interior area (the 2 hallways) is out of place because it was made late in development as a way to connect to No-man's wharf. If you go to the noclip website you'll see it's a different area from the outdoors Heide where we fight the dragonslayer and the knights, so it wasn't originally Heide.
Dark Souls 2 should've gotten cancelled. What an abortion of a game
@@hisholiness4537 what a bad take
@@depalodor I'm saying that as someone with over 2.5k hours in it. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but it's literally an abortion that went through forced birth.
Hmmm... I think a place with a constant danger of flooding is one heck of a place to have imprisoned the most dangerous fellows of a certain world... almost as if it was sacrificial...
The cut map looks a lot more like Blightown. Its got a large aqueduct overhead, and rickety wooden structures leading into a poisonous swamp area. This would've made more sense in the way it connected too, it's a shame it got changed so much.
Yep, looked like it was intended to be an idea of society forming out of Blighttown.
That cut map looks like a "town" that is suspiciously absent from Blighttown, maybe intending to be a fully realized version of the concept. Too bad that intentions never made it through.
This sounds dramatic but it’s heartbreaking to see their original vision that went unrealized. Amazing video.
Yo when you brought us back to the trailer and it showed the exact location that geometry was a 1,000,000% meant for, it was epiphanic.
I think one great detail that the precarious towers of houses implies, is that there is very little wind present in The Gutter, which makes me think of how everything in it is just festering in still, tepid air. It just really paints a picture of a gross little hole where the air hangs thick with the smell of garbage and rot, with nary a breeze to blow away the crushing stench for even a moment. Fantastic worldbuilding.
Lol it's so cool to see myself as a small cameo in this video. On the trash pillars, Gilligan confirms that the hole is where everyone in Majula throws their garbage, so you were correct there. Lots of good content as always, and looking forward to the next.
The Gutters name makes a lot more sense now.
It made sense to me the second I saw the area
explains Gavlan being the poison dealer as well. his home is surrounded by it.
In Archaeology, ancient cities are often basically piled on one another. Troy is one such place IIRC. There were some ruins of a settlement built on top of a previous settlement that had been abandoned or destroyed. These layers can go back thousands of years. That said, the massive open space with the giant bridge and house stacks is giving me massive Lordran vibes. Maybe there had been an idea that Drangelic would be resting on the ruins of the old world?
"Bench with wheels on it"? Maybe the "tire" was a rough, early version of the wheelchair for Darkdiver Grandahl? Who knows...
Or maybe even a smaller version of something like the executioners chariot?
I thought it looked like a piece of detailing like you might get along the front edge of a stone roof, possibly above where a column ended. Just looks like it might be set into something rather than being a stand alone object.
It may been a planned "makeshift junk furniture" environmental item for the proto-Gutter's concept of a literal trash town. Either that or wheels were going to be a big part of Gyrm-Gutter's village to explain Gavlan talking about wheels.
Yeah that was my first thought was it was a wheelchair.
Yeah he could have been a denizen
Seeing all of these unused areas makes me wonder how cool how dark souls 2 could've been if given more time
That's... The entire point of the video.
I recon the large room with the chair was the alpha throne of want, considering the cat said it was under the castle. They probably connected up.
In the final build of Drangleic Castle there’s leftover evidence that they had a sewage problem with those pools of acid and the acid spitter traps. Those design ideas might have been leftover from when the gutter was intended to be their sewer system.
The "tire" shape could be something ornamental on a facade.
"How the gutter got gutted"
Me: Oh, well it can't be *that* bad, right?
Four minutes in: so right there, there was a town.
Me: *surprise Pikachu face*
having played through elden ring it’s really cool to see so many ideas that were cut from here realized in elden ring. especially with the labyrinth-like and sprawling sewer sections.
13:26 Children with birth defects were discarded into pits and ravines in the medieval periods, so it is pretty accurate with how they would have been treated in the older periods of times, 14:35 Circular ornaments like that werent that uncommon on doors, walls, shields and other things they wanted to make look a bit more fancy, not sure what it was supposed to be though.
I can say with 100% precision is that the cut Iron Keep definitely offered better world-building at least. You can see a forge ! You can see tools ! You can clearly see that it was an actual place where actual people worked ! Compare to the finished Iron Keep. What is it ? No, seriously, what is it ? What is the purpose of the Iron Keep ? What did people do in it ? How did they navigate it ? Did they not have rooms ? Furniture ? Just what the hell is it ?
I know these are not necessarily indicative of good level design as far as creating a worthwhile challenge goes. But that's the problem with Dark Souls 2's maps : challenging is all that the levels are. They're not places, they don't show stories, people, culture, they're just vaguely themed challenge runs. Just for that I'd be enclined to say that cut Iron Keep is better by default. Plus current Iron Keep sucks, my god.
No Man's Wharf and Brightstone Cove both did pretty good jobs of creating the culture and purpose IMO. As did the Gutter and Grave of Saints. Iron Keep was definitely weak on that realm though.
@@Lukeinator64 I agree with No Man's Wharf, I'd also say Forrest of Fallen Giant is another that seems believable enough. I kinda agree some the others, I just think that as levels, they're not fun to play through which often negates whatever decent worldbuilding there might be.
Inversely I like the Gutter but I think the worldbuilding is really weak. It's too derivative of previous Souls games to stand out, it's a shame that the shaded wood zombies are not in the gutter instead of the normal hollows, also it's described as a pit of garbage yet there's almost none to be found in there.
Spot-on.
The dlc maps, the Brume tower and the one with the pyramids and platforms that move, those were insanely good at making the locations feel like they had working mechanisms and a backstory behind them
The fucking ladder leading into a corridor that takes you to a hole in the wall which is a shortcut to Steady Hand McDuff (Lost Bastille blacksmith)'s little corner.
That hole wasn't there before. When the castle actually worked they legit had a hole in the wall that had a long ass corridor leading to absolutely nowhere.
Shit like this depresses me, I really like DS2 and would have loved to see the Gutter better
It's been years since this came out, but damn that dragon mushroom skeleton at 30:24 is sooo goddamn cool
i would legit pay money to play a restored version of this area.
x2
@リカ ふだんな ?! where?
@リカ ふだんな where
@リカ ふだんな show
@リカ ふだんな cap,there is just too much content to a single person restore to a playable state
The thing that comes across the most to me looking at this is that DS2 was originally going to explore the concept of Giants more, and the concept of the world continuing to fall apart as the age of fire is pushed past it's breaking point. I think they finally came back around to the second idea in DS3, but they never really explored Giants again, and it leaves me with a lot of speculation.
Those barrels being scaled for a giant is one thing that piqued my interest, but another is the Nashandra statue. It's never really clearly stated in the games, but a creature becoming giant seems to be associated with them amassing souls. In Lodran, Gwyn and the royal family declared themselves Gods, but perhaps the only difference between a God and a human is the power of their soul. If this were literally true, I suppose your character would grow as they collected souls, which sounds silly.
Perhaps Nashandra was originally meant to be the player character from the first game, which would explain why she has a shard of Manus' soul, and why humanity isn't in the second game, but rather human effigies.
I know this sort of speculation is totally pointless, but ever since I saw Anor Londo for the first time, giants, large people, and "Gods" have always interested me, especially since they are the one thing left truly unexplained in the series.
When we first see men rise up from the first flame in DS1, there is no discernable difference between the bodies we see stand up from the ash and the furtive pygmy. Presumably those went on to become Gwyn, Nito, and the Witch of Izalith, all of whom are giant in proportion. But humans remain small. I always wanted to know why that was.
the whole "amassing souls makes you physically larger" piece has a very interesting implication with something Vendrik did to spite Nashandra in Dark Souls 2.
Look at where Vendrik's soul is located. You don't obtain it with his armor in his crypt, nor does he drop it when you kill him. Instead you must go back to the Shrine of Amana and open a small door. A door too small for Nashandra to fit inside. And a door guarded by Milfanito, who can pacify undead
However, if Nashandra's size is truly inflated by souls, that means she *could* enter the door, if only she were to give up all her souls, i.e. all her power. If she knew about where Vendrik's soul was located, imagine the constant taunting it represents. "Look, my eternal darling, you can have my soul. All you need to do is give up all of your souls, reject the darkness of the abyss so the Milfanito don't put you to sleep, and walk over right next to my grave site and go pick it up"
It's Alice In Wonderland theme, Alice always found things with label "eat me" to become big and small. Alice also met a cat, a rabbit, smoking caterpillar, fat twins, mad hatter, card soldiers, evil queen, dragon...we can see it all in Dark Souls especially in Dark Souls 2...there is even a Looking Glass Knight
ok, crazy idea here: what if the original idea is that Vendrik sailed to Lordran and and the giants he encountered there are actually Lordran's residents, they have amassed so much souls and became so old that they look all stony and disfigured.
Very interesting speculation, but there’s something that seems a little flawed to me.
Nashandra doesn’t have a share of Manus’ soul, she, Elanna, Nadalia, and Alsanna were all born from Manus once he died.
@@HardCoreTea nope, we see that the progeny of gwyn is still normal in ds3.
the giants are simply another race, more deeply rooted in the force of nature that the english version of ds calls pyromancy
Dark Souls 2 Remake When?
FromSoft, you have the blueprints to make something beyond amazing, just make it.
Or give us a proper dev kit/tools so we can do more than just add things like furniture to make new pathways for mods like Ascended and Stayd
With the right tools we could add the missing collision and allocate new textures to these places.
Make a warp point for them too.
I would like more a remaster using the graphics it showed first.
My God DS2 has better graphics than DS1, I cnan see that, but it looks so much worse for me due to the lack of any inspirational lighting...
I always find it too hard to look at Dark Souls 2's walls, ground, characters, building, anything! it just looks like colors without shading, so ugly.
@@sleepyhead644 It bugs me everytime... some areas were unfinished, they left it unfinished.
Also, there is a video comparing textures... the remaster actually downgraded a lot of textures (like the ones in the gaping Dragon).
@@sleepyhead644 Blame QLOC on that: typical of an outside studio to completely miss the point of some design choices.
21:49 this point about the rat statues being hard to see in the dark and getting confused with real rats also makes sense when you consider the Royal Rat Vanguard fight. I bet if the game was darker than it was originally released, those statues would really make the boss fight harder.
The gutter before: Awesome invasion arena with sweet gyrm lore
The gutter now: Blighttown 2 - Oops, all the worst part!
Valley of Defilement Part 3
In an alternate universe ds2 is the undeniable best souls game
Edit: I’ve been getting a lot of comments saying “it already is”, “it is for me”, etc.. you guys don’t understand my point. By undeniable I mean that nobody disagrees, and there are a lot of people who dislike or even hate ds2. I personally love ds2 but not everyone does
In the universe where DS2 had a year or two of extra development, it would be up there with one of the best games of all time
DS2 and Zelda 2 remind me so much of each other. Kinda off topic but do u guys agree?
@Gang Weed that universe doesn't exist, sorry
@@fiiive2the5ix Isn't Zelda 2 a side-scroller?
It is for me in the current universe.
The upside-down house at the start, seems very similar to the houses in the giant memories. I think maybe that pit Is where a dead giant is in the current game, I'll check in-game tomorrow.
Edit: I didn't notice an exact copy of a house, but the one in memory of vammar is very similar. The textures on the wall aren't the same, but the general design of the building feels very similar.
Wonder if the giant boss would've led to here from his cave instead of having majula be the entrance to the gutter (or maybe both if they had dreams of making it interconnected like dark souls 1)
Also did anyone else keep thinking the friendly bug was a boss door from a distance? During my first playthrough i happily jogged over to the bug several times thinking i had finally found the boss, only to visit the bug, hang out for a moment and then move on :D
This is an instance of "What could have been?" actually being very compelling. Thanks for the undoubtedly hard work to make this video and share more of these insights into the development of these fascinating games!
Dark Souls 2 would be perfect to receive a remake in the future...
Dark Souls 1 only needed changes to lost izalith and maybe tomb of giants, Dark Souls 3 doesn't need changes, Demon Souls only the sixth archstone... but dark souls 2 was supposed to be open world game, so seeing a remake with more time, polish to what's there and adding some of what was cut, keeping the secrets and fixing some of the bosses, this would porbably be the best Souls game.
We already have a remake of Dark Souls 2 scholar of the first sin from software did their best to improve and try to salvage a bad game from the original versions it's best that from software leaves the game alone and let it go into obscurity that way one day I know people will talk about it to the point where from software has no choice but to make a remake like Sony and blue point did with Demon Souls remake. Let the game go into obscurity so it's no longer talked about that much so they can pull a fast one on us.
Scholar didn't fix the map design AFAIK
I can only imagine the places that we will never see. You helped me make that image a little more clear. Thank you.
man, I wish they gave this game another year
I don't know if its feasible, but I hope some fans try to hack some of this back into the game and merge it with the existing content. Dark souls 2 is such a tragic game, so many ideas got cut.
I wonder if some of the original concept with the Gutter was recycled into Eleum Loyce and its town structure.
I mean, people have already shown changing the map is very much doable, but the issue is how unfinished this is. Unless some random dev from way back when could actually give insight (fat chance of that unfortunately) theres no way to tell how any of the content here would tie in with eachother without very heavy assumptions and subsitions. Plus, no collision, no textures, sometimes clearly unfinished maps in general, even with an accurate view of how this was all intended, it would be a colossal task to finish the incomplete parts of these maps, add existing or make entirely new textures for them, make effective collision for all of it and then actually applying those changes in a theoretical mod would be insane. It's a damn shame too.
Like holy shit, some of these maps, like illusory said, seem as if there were multiple concepts clipping/stacked on eachother
@@Lucas61616 DS2 has grown the furthest in terms of map additions and creations. While we may never be able to truly recreate the original DS2 map, we can at least try to create a more authentic experience with mods than what the final game became.
It's definitely still a great game, just a bandwagon of people who hate the game for minor reasons.
@@meestersecure9060 i LOVE ds2's aesthetic & lore, it felt alien compared with the other souls games - like you were in another age in the same world, or an alternate timeline or plane of existence. there are so many armor sets and weapons that only exist in ds2 that i love and a lot of them fit together in ways armors from ds1 don't. also i miss that there's no lance class in ds3 cause i freaking love using the lance.
however, i replayed this game 3 months ago and could not force myself to finish it - the controls are ass (do 360s in ds3 then do 360s in ds2, youll see what i mean), the animations can be comically bad, the game has glaring geographic inconsistencies, some areas are obviously unfinished and ugly (lost woods), the bosses are fucking *easy*, not to mention player-hating mechanics like SM and adp/agl. agility alone was enough to hamstring most of the game, because everything had to be slowed down immensely to compensate for the reduced base i-frame count. go fight every enemy and boss in heide's tower and try to tell me they don't all look like they're swimming through molasses. there are a LOT of major complaints with ds2 and i could go on and on.
i do not hate this game, it just failed in many ways that that other 5 did not. truthfully, its biggest failing is that it is a souls game.
sorry for the wall of text, i've just thought about this game a lot since playing it a 2nd time.
I loved the intro to the gutter but was thoroughly let down by it.
18:39 This was definitely meant to be a covenant location of some kind. Pilgrim's of Dark maybe? Or perhaps a new one altogether?
Wow this was massive!!! You were not clickbaiting in the slightest, this must have taken years to make. I feel so bad for the devs who made all of these amazing environments and proper environmental storytelling and they just had to dump it all because of time constraints. This is easily the most ambitious dark souls game, it’s so sad how so much of it went to waste, but it still came out great in the end. Really hope a director’s cut would be made but I highly doubt that would ever happen. All dark souls 1 remaster do was, well, remaster it, and so did Demon Souls (which looks so much better), and they already made scholar of the first sin which just visually looks better and has more enemies. Quite the shame, but at the very least we can see all of the concepts, so they didn’t go completely to waste
It blows my mind that these areas were not used for the final game. So much work was done and it's not like DS2 has a lot of details in it's existing levels. Seems like it just needed some textures and final touches.
Sometimes plans just don't pan out. An idea might be great, but it may conflict with something else. Something might not come together properly. There might be technical issues. There's always a reason for why things like this are cut.
@@SpookGod If I had to guess it would have been a Blight Town scenerio. The tech at the time would lag and very likely crash the game or reduce the game to a 10 fps experience. Since there is alot more for the game to render than Blight Town had. Honestly I don't mind current DS2. The thing that bugs me about DS2 is how bad the melee combat is until end game, how much things got nerfed in the PvE section of the game in its lifetime from launch and then how easy it is to lose your way. Its not even funny how easily I got lost in the castle.
But as I said the game probably wouldn't be able to handle it on top of player interaction and special effects like Miracles, Sorcery, and Pyromacy. Just to much stuff and very likely to be abandoned due to time or being pushed to focus on more important areas. Like the castle or Giant Memories.
Videos like this one always make stronger my belief that Dark Souls II was "intended" to be the best souls game and one of the best games ever created. It is sad what it became in the end. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the game and have played it way more time than all the other soulsborne games (together!!!!!) but it just feel wrong and highly unfinished. The DLCs did an amazing work showing a more refined vision of it's development but the base game was going to be that quality all over it but it seems that all the great ideas just got scrapped away.
I strongly agree with you the game does feel unfinished but I have an opposite effect with Dark Souls 2 I've only put 126 hours into it unlike the other games Dark Souls 1 is my most played game of the Dark Souls series I expected Dark Souls 1 but better with Dark Souls 2 didn't get what I wanted still a good game but I just don't enjoy it as much as Dark Souls 1 or 3 or Bloodborne
The final game is actually fairly dark if you do the whole brightness adjustment the way the game tells you to set it.
Lol no. Never. All the way up.
@@jojoversus1100 *Maxes brightness*
*Whines about the game looking washed out and being too bright*
*Review bombs it*
@@JohnSmith-fq3rg Not I, sir. I love this game.
Adjusting it all the way down is the best one
@@JohnSmith-fq3rg the games lighting is shit regardless of brightness settings
It's definitely been pointed out, but Shalquoir (in the on-screen text) says they "WERE made an outlet", not that they "made an outlet." So Vendrick took a Gyrmen village that already existed beneath his castle, turned it into a septic tank out of convenience, and then sealed it up so that no one could leave
The obelisk in the town at the bottom of the proto-Gutter looks similar to the one in Majula, maybe both towns were connected originally?
I wondered if perhaps the obelisks were going to be the replacement for the fast travel system, given the lord vessel was shattered to pieces. I think there was a third one elsewhere in the cut assets.
Its a real shame that all of this got cut. You can tell a lot of effort and love went into these areas, and they contained some awesome memorable potential setpieces. It also makes The Gutter feel like a unique area and not just another Blighttown/Valley of Defilement clone.
Man this just breaks my heart. All these cool ideas just beeing thrown away because of time is really sad. This area alone looks so huge and interesting. I personally love the Idea of a big open area below the ground.
it was much less because of time constraints and much much more about bandai namco wanting to preserve brand identity and change director midway through. Which makes it even more infiruating
@@scantyer And people shit on the developers! Geez that's really a kick in the Balls.
Man you were right this objectively better than what we got, considering the gutter is an amalgam of refuse. Forgotten underground slum.
Weird that pharros lockstones are referred to as “bug keys”. Maybe a literal translation of whatever characters make up “pharros”, or maybe there was a different idea for his story/relevancy that would make bugs more of a theme.
So it would've still been Blighttown 2, but a so much cooler Blighttown 2.
for what i can see "The Gutter" it really is dungeon exploration,
so many path, branch, road, dead end, and confusion level design.
Be nice if they actually
make this place happened for this place is alternative to go to.
Have you ever thought about doing a dark souls dissected on the player ghost things we see running around all the time? There seems to be a lot of different information online about whether these are real-time (with lag) recordings of other players, or if they are significantly delayed. Maybe you already did this and I just forgot though
I always wondered if the ghosts aligned with your level range, and thus gave an idea of how active an area would be for multiplayer, or if they were just anyone in that area...
Yes! I'm so unbelievably, sublimely ecstatic: you included more of the Japanese to English translations and not only what they translated to, but potentially how this process allows for things to be lost in translation (or altered in some way). I know I've asked via comments for this practice to be incorporated into more of your videos, and you do it! Couldn't be more stoked. Once again, what a wondrous video you've made. Your due diligence in research really shows. Never fails to amaze / satisfy.
It's so weird to think of the process behind cutting and re-working all the areas in DS2 for the release: since the traditional poison swamp area was axed, previously water-filled (and probably very resource-demanding) area we now know as Earthern Peak was drained and instead filled with noxious gas. Looking back at the area its layout makes much more sense with all the waterwheels and locks to control the water level. I'd still say that the Gutter we ended up with is one of the most memorable areas due to its darkness & layout!
This is my fav video from this channel and my most rewatched one. i don't know why but there's so much cut content here that it hypnotizes me
this video honestly makes me sad just because we'll never get too see this cool unused stuff
26:09 that is most definitely a boss room. Probably where the royal rat authority was originally intended to be but i could be wrong. Royal rat authority gives me guardian pet vibes.
god this looks amazing, i love that cozy bar so much, it really feels so out of place but in a comfy way i guess. shulva was an alright take on the "city" idea, but I would have much rather seen this instead. this unused version almost gives off a no man's wharf vibe i guess?
Man, this is so cool. Really shows that the B Team could’ve made a game as good as Dark Souls 1, or perhaps even better under different circumstances.
Maybe some day a group of talented (and patient) modders will restore this content. But I’m not holding my breath.
I mean you could probably try to reach out to some talented modders on this idea and see if they take it up
Never know what could happen
ya'll want modders to build a game from scratch for free lol
@@scantyer They're doing it for Skyrim, don't see why they can't do it for this game
And anyone who wants it would be more than happy to pay their Patreons
There's no such thing as a B-Team. Removing Miyazaki does not suddenly make the entirety of FROMsoftware suddenly a less capable group of designers and programmers. Completely scrapping a videogame and then forcing a new director to cobble together assets within a single year ensured that this game could never be what it was meant to be. It's like blaming Itsuno for DMC2 being an absolute trashfire.
This is fascinating scholarship. It's almost like The Gutter was intended to be this New Londo/Undead Burg but at an even more degenerative version? The Nashandra statue almost makes it seem like The Gutter had become this place for the objections of those who reject the rule of Vendrick after his increasing backseat is taken to Nashandra? It'd be fascinating to see this all restored, but damn does this really just drive home for me how much I love Dark Souls II as it is still. The Gutter is just so fun to play, even as it is. It's Blighttown without being as painfully large and dragging you through a poison swamp. Love it. Great vid.
Damn, I can't wait to see more videos from this series. I really hope the content you're working on is the next episode of DS2 dissected
7:00
Add a minigame where the player has to serve thirsty undead.
11:00
This is so weird, because back in the day most games just used a generic "trash" texture. Like the rubble in Half-life 2. They did way more work for a way worse result.
19:30
Duplicate for cutscene?
35:15
Imagine Gavlan having all the vats of booze for himself. :D
I also thought that the cloned area would be used for a boss cutscene.
My god I've never seen or heard of this beta/cut map and it's amazing. Where did you even find it? Is it still in the game's files?
Yeah these are all in the game's files. Dropoff did all the heavy lifting so I'm ignorant of the specifics myself, but if it's anything like Dark Souls 1 what happens is that each map has a bunch of map pieces/ segments associated with it... but the game only actually loads what's relevant. Think of it as a folder with a bunch of stuff in it, but the final product only ever uses ~75% (made up number) of the things in there. So it's a matter of modding the game to tell it to display those pieces when the area loads.
@@illusorywall sounds like a lot of work. How much of it turns to creative liberties based on what they believe the developers would have done?
@@fiiive2the5ix They're not editing the map files, just making them playable
@@illusorywall ah ok, that might explain why in brightstone tseldora the two bottom area's (the sand whirlpool and the place where pickaxe guy waits for you) don't line up the same from when you look at them from above and from when you actually walk around there. This always drove me bonkers but now I understand why that is
Tbh DS2 deserves a full remake/re-imagening...
Imagine this with Bloodborne's level of quality... that would make even the most angey DS2 hater happy i would say!
19:20 What if this room was like some sort of beta throne of want or the place where you would've originally met King Vendrick (maybe as an NPC). Since it was located under drangleic castle originally, the gutter could've been some sort of mid- or early Endgame area like the undead crypt.