GADGETS#29 - DIY COP PADDLE PROBE
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- čas přidán 1. 10. 2018
- NOTE: A small modification was later made to this probe by adding a 3/4" PVC end cap over top the copper end cap.
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DISCLAIMER:
BUILD OR USE OR ADAPTATION OF THE GADGETS FEATURED HERE ARE AT YOUR OWN RISK!
Awesome video and thanks for sharing. I was about to buy a replacement from snap on. I’ll be headed to Lowe’s after I finish this comment. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the world. I have trained dozens of mechanics over the 30+ years I’ve been working on cars. No one knows it all and only a fool will say they do. I try to learn something new each day.
It's an easy and enjoyable build. I think you'll agree on the ease of capture and the quality of the secondary waveforms.
I share your learning something new approach:)
Excellent. Sending a big thank you from the Netherlands. Will be making one as soon I receive my Hantek 👍🏼
+Werner van Schie - cool!
You may have noticed elsewhere on the channel where there's been a small modification to this gadget with the addition of a 3/4" PVC end cap over the 1/2" copper end cap.
I built my own secondary ignition probe based on your design. Ive used it on toyotas a few times and got pretty good results. Thanks for sharing these builds of yours.
Voltage Drop Diagnostics It’s great to c u on this channel. This guy really knows his stuff. Just like u really know yours!!
Love your videos, excellent explanations.
I built your paddle Probe but i connected the earth lead close to the copper end cap because i figured it would help cut down on unwanted noise
from pickup along your rather long unshielded section.
I also love my HS402 and software
Regards from Australia
nice to hear George
I got excited just the like electrons. This is going to b the first device of yours that I build. I just want to c that firing line. When I was very young I built a Heathkit oscilloscope and was fascinated with that intense little blue firing line Your device is super slick. Pretty soon u will b at 1000 subs. People r recognizing what a treasure u r.
+Bill Rimmer - you are probably aware of the slight mod to this COP PROBE, a 3/4" PVC end cap added over the 1/2" copper
Yep close to 1K subs...been a long haul to get here:)
Another easy make and useful tool. Congrats!
+Martinloren R&D - thanks, Martin!
Thank you very much for teaching us the how to! Over price is every where in so called business, using little bait to hook big fish, wrap easy product with newly coded names, etc. haha.
there sure is a lot of price gouging in that business...
Top job! I must Comment to thank you for sharing ur knowledge and putting an effort to make n upload a video. That is actually a life saver for many people like me who dont want to spend big money and same time want a sophisticated tool. God bless you.
And the gap between the capabilities of the expensive tools and what we do is closing all the time...
Thank You for your generous comment, Tony:)
Really nice job sir, thank you for sharing.
+JustAnother IrishMan - thanks so much for the comment
Nice and simple!
Very nice gadget.
It very simple and easy to understand for me tq sir.
should there be safeguards built into the lead incase the "coil on plug" was leaking and the high voltage jumped into into your test lead killing your scope.
Or would that potential ark be sent to the test leads ground?
people with $3000 oscilloscopes might be concerned...
I and many others in our HScope group work with oscilloscopes costing less than $100...wouldn't be a big loss
and I have yet to learn of someone that zapped their scopes with this...I didn't re-invent the wheel here...this is a spin on coin/alligator clip secondary waveforms that guys have been doing since scopes hit the automotive world...
there was a revision done to this probe after the posting of this video and that is the addition of a PVC end cap over the copper end cap to add a little insulation
another precaution is to poke around COP with a test light to see if errant sparks exist
Hi great piece off kit, have to build one myself, what software are you using on your Hantek scope ? I have a couple of Hantek scopes but the software is different. And where can I get it ? Thanks
You will notice in my videos that I am a BIG fan of HScope, the Android App that can be downloaded on the Google Play Store.
It takes the budget oscilloscopes that it supports to a level of performance not available with the manufacturer's Windows software.
Some coils - thinking BMW motorcycle I had worked on - doesn't pick up with my spatula probe from AES but can probe primary. Honda coils, for example, don't let you probe primary so secondary is the only way to go...
+bhartwigutube -The BMW has aluminum covers over coils. I'm picturing trying to fit the AES paddle over the COP even with covers removed...
Adapting methods to the particular vehicle being worked on is something we all share as automotive buffs.
I do appreciate your binge watching of my videos😀
GADGETS#32 demonstrates the quality and ease of secondary waveform acquisition with this simple (almost too simple) and inexpensive probe.
Just built this. Works better then any of the other I have purchased. I did add a small tantalum capacitor to protect for high tension leakage from coil to COP probe.
Thanks for your video!
there are lots of these built around the globe since I posted this video
if but only 1 guy had blown up his scope with it, I'd have heard about it 4sure...lol
glad you like it:)
Thanks. 👌
Genius.. Pure genius
I'm going to build one and I don't even have a scope yet.
a simple device based on industry practice of placing a coin and alligator clip on top of a coil...
note that later, a PVC end cap was placed over the copper end cap (held with epoxy) to eliminate bare copper exposure
@@theGADGETSplaylist Right on... thanks. I was worried about that. Because sometimes I test my plugs wires and coils with a simple test light probe to ground... You can drag the point of your test light tip along the outside of the wire and coil, ect.. and if there's a hole in your wire, it will arc to your test light-- so it's quick and easy to find spark plug wire shorts to the block that way.. So I was thinking, what happens if that arc hits your 'paddle probe? Does that kill the scope? It's really high voltage, but low current-- so I'm not sure. Maybe the scope would just display the short and still be fine. Maybe an inline fuse is not a bad idea on your home made paddle probe, just in case it gets zapped by a leaking coil. Maybe your plastic cover completely stops that arc now.
@@calholli your test light before using COP PROBE if suspect leaky COP is a good idea...
yes, PVC cap can't hurt...may offer some protection...
there are risks...similar to old school use of coin and alligator clip...
stay away from spark plug wires with this COP PROBE which are more dangerous ... for COP use only...
That's awesome! 👍 I am going to build my own thanks for the info.
+sherwin b - you'll love it.
Note that a 3/4" PVC cap was later added over the copper cap.
@@theGADGETSplaylist Have you come across any cars that it does not work on?
@@crystal1484 - Cars with spark plug wires and cars where the coils are concealed, of course won't lend themselves to this.
I saw a PICO video a while back where they were saying their probe was having trouble with the COP on FORD FUSION because these were particularly well insulated. Well, this build works just fine on my FUSION...
Watch a couple of videos where I use it. A good example is the OSC482 video where on a "single trigger" the waveform was captured as I approached the COP, not even in contact.
The multi-strike video illustrates the quality of those waveforms.
@@theGADGETSplaylist thank you very much for the information
@@crystal1484 - let me know how you make out...
Followed your directions (mostly) and results were great. I was unable to find the plastic rod, so ended up using a foot long piece of 1/2 inch pex, and the copper 1/2 inch cap fit right on. Tested today and it works perfectly. Total cost, 78 cents US for the copper cap.
money well spent...lol
did you add a 3/4 PVC cap over the copper one...a modification that took place after the video was posted (and mentioned elsewhere in other videos on the channel)...at the suggestion of viewers that weren't comfortable with the bare copper...
@@theGADGETSplaylist No, I'm happy with the copper. Just in case, I use a 20:1 attenuator to protect the scope.
@@georgebeuselinck951s oh no...20:1 won't do anything to protect against 25Kv zap...and will just weaken the probe signal
@@theGADGETSplaylist OK, you talked me into it... will procure a 3/4 inch pvc cap and install... Thanks again!
This was very creative device. Secondary ignition analyses is my favorite subject. I am wondering would be possible to use copper pipe and place it across multiple COP to capture signal. Cheer well done sir.
+KY Home Garage - I know you like this stuff, Ramon🙂
Interesting idea trying to pick up entire bank with a copper pipe. I'd never get one on the 4.6L...it's crowded in there!
I experimented with larger pieces of copper (3x the size of the cap that I settled on) and found the signal maybe a bit too strong.
Thanks for dropping by,
Denis
KY Home Garage , did you find a way to get multiple readings ? I have a inline 4 cylinder motorcycle engine I would like to test ,
@@danielmackormack8524 check this video my friend. Thank you
czcams.com/video/4-pD9miGFCg/video.html
hello denis I have a question to ask you, to protect the oscilloscope it would not be ideal to use a resistance too and if it is of a size or having a good mass there is no need, thank you so much
This is a simple build that captures great secondary waveforms.
Any modification not only complicates it but will interfere with the delicate signal it produces.
I have no fear in using it. Many around the world have built this and have no fear using it. Those who are not comfortable with it should not use it. Life is so simple.
@@theGADGETSplaylist thank you very much for your availability you are a great
Will it work on the Toyota COP? I made one with a relay (Mechanical Mindset channel). The relay pickup will show a pulse but not a good wave form. on the toyota.
COP all vary...some better results holding on top...others better if holding on side
solid copper based probes (like this one is) give best results, IMO
You are a pocket saver. You have the most amazing ideas and a kind heart. Thank you for sharing, subscribed and hit the notification icon on your CZcams account. Again thank you from the bottom of my heart and my pocket.
+Adriano Vergora - what I do have is amazing followers:)
Maybe not that many subscribers (yet), but they have connected solidly with the work.
It is worth the effort.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart!
logical canuck I would like to buy the MustTool Multimeter/Oscilloscope combo can I change the end of your invention to fit a normal multimeter end probe?
@@adrianovergara1784 - I don't see why not, Adriano.
Have you watched GADGETS#31?
logical canuck I went to Reno depot here in Quebec but couldn’t find the toilet supply pipe that you’re using. I found the 1/2 copper ends though and already ordered the BNC with alligator clips.
@@adrianovergara1784 - I think I got mine @ CTC (a while back)...but Home Depot has them:
www.homedepot.ca/product/durapro-pex-smooth-bathroom-faucet-water-supply-line-3-8-inch-x-12-inch/1001141627
And other plumbing shops, I'm sure.
I tried this before completing the wiring and found that the probe acted as an antenna. Just waving the probe in the air (like a magic wand) above a running engine would pick up secondary ignition waveforms. The BNC cable's alligator clip was a lot more selective in picking up the signal; the signal intensity increased as I moved the alligator clip closer to the ignition wire I aimed to probe. Even then, however, with the oscilloscope's gain turned up, I could pick up secondary ignition waveforms just by holding the alligator clip in the air above the running engine. Do I just have a particularly noisy engine?
+plilikoi - Hi!
If you're still talking about the Buick or the Bronco, of course it would be noisy in there! Those vehicles are not COP...
Have you watched GADGETS#32? In that video, what you see is what I get.
+plilikoi - Here's what people use to acquire secondary waveforms on vehicles with spark plug wires.
www.ebay.ca/itm/HANTEK-HT25-High-Voltage-Scope-Secondary-Ignition-Capacitive-Auto-Pickup-Probe/292439348117?hash=item4416be5395:g:7eIAAOSwtKVaebU1:rk:5:pf:0
I have one but can't speak to its capabilities as I haven't used it.
Ah. thanks, I was just sanity-checking myself. I have one of those pickup doohickies, but I found it didn't work very well. The plain alligator clip seems to work better to give a uniform waveform.
New to the channel, just curious as to what software you're running with your Hantek? Just bought a 1008C to learn on and am already finding their program terribly limited.
+Jody Barrett - Welcome to the channel, Jody!
I use HScope, an ANDROID app that can be found on the Google Play Store. It brings out the best in these budget oscilloscopes.
You'll find many videos showing HScope in action on this channel.
It's a paid app (about $10) and the AUTOMOTIVE MODULE (sold separately) is also highly recommended.
czcams.com/video/UgXfuQnupXg/video.html alternatives to the software!
Great info. Now I'm curious about the "Multi Strike" , I've never seen that.
If I'd got wave form, I'd be " What in the heck is that ???"
That would be a great topic for a video.
I cover it in greater detail in GADGETS#32
A couple of questions
When using this probe on the Hscope with the hantek 1008c when trying to capture a waveform it appears to crash and the device then says searching for device.
If I use this on the hantek software on the laptop I have to set the scale to around 500mv before I see a pattern.
Now the pattern is a good wave form but obviously the voltages way off.
Any idea how to solve these issues?
You raise 2 issues here, Nathan:
1) the HT1008 disconnecting from HScope (searching for device) would be unrelated to the COP Probe use, I think. I recommend the latest BETA HScope version which is (165) presently.
2) The COP Probe upper voltage is about 3v - 4v typical. Hantek software 500mv is per division which adds up fairly well to capture COP range, right?
Hope this helps...
Denis
@@theGADGETSplaylist I think the scope disconnecting is more to do with my cable tbh.
And that makes sense then with voltages on cop probe thank you
El video está muy bien echo se podrá usar para ver el campo del alternador y de los inyectores o que modificación hay que hacer para ver el oscilograma gracias por compartir sus conocimientos
Estoy contento de que te haya gustado:)
One last question Denis. I noticed that when u finish with a sample, the scope continues to have that picture even when u remove the cop. Why is that?
+Bill Rimmer - the scope was in Manual Trigger mode. As I backed away with the probe, the trigger condition was no longer met, HScope screen not refreshed until the manual trigger condition is met again or placed in AUTO trigger.
Can you invert the waveform on you Hantech scope? I have run across heavily insulated coils that are impossible to get a signal out of. i use a set of test plug wires to get signal. Ford coils are nice since you can just use the primary signal. Those 3 and 4 wire coils with the transistor in the coil take that option away which sucks. Anyway love your video's !!
The COP probe in the HScope database has invert signal built into the multiplier. The secondary is displayed "right side up"
There was a PVC end cap epoxied over the copper end cap since this build video.
Am pleased you're enjoying the videos:)
I have just come across your channel and am going to build this, I saw another video with a similar build to your where he wired in an 1000 ohm resistor in case a damaged coil insulation caused it to jump across to the probe and damage the oscilloscope. Does that make sense? don't be to critical please as I am just learning. thanks
the copper end cap when placed near COP "generates" a little less than 5v but with almost no current. A 1KΩ resistor would stop that signal in its tracks.
this is a new spin on an old idea where guys would use alligator clips and coins to get secondary waveforms...and assume some risks of scope damage along the way...
I've added a 3/4 PVC end cap to cover the bare 1/2 copper cap since this video was produced. That might help. Another good idea is to bring a grounded test light near COP before if damaged COP insulation is expected or feared.
good luck with your build, Terry
@@theGADGETSplaylist I took your advice and left out the resistor but used a small car relay in stead of copper and it works really well. I have tried it on my petrol chainsaw as well as various electrical motors and fans to get an understanding of the wave forms. Many thanks
@@foxy1960 great!
thx for the update ...
At the risk of sounding silly, can I ask how you soldered the wire to the copper cap. I am trying and having difficulty getting solder to attach to the cap. Please advise🙂
+Toby Birrell - not silly😉
I used flux...water soluble type in a small toothpaste type tube. AND, just a soldering iron doesn't have enough heat to do it. Either a soldering gun or a small butane torch to heat the copper cap.
logical canuck very much appreciate your channel, this video, and your reply 👍🏻
logical canuck very much appreciate your channel, this video, and your reply 👍🏻
Use flux
you are the man
it's a very simple thing but works very well...some people are concerned with errant high voltage leak making it to oscilloscope and those concerned should not use it...
people afraid of lightning should not golf...lol
Hi very interesting video and a fantastic idea do you not need to take a ground from the probe in case off a stray hi voltage leak off a coil going to the scope .Is it possible to invert the image on Hscope for like wasted spark system? love you're videos
this is based on a very old idea where coins and or alligator clips were placed on top of COP to get secondary waveforms...people not comfortable doing this shouldn't...
HScope has INV in probe database that does invert waveforms
Thank you for the reply I have found the invert in the list. Thanks for the help
@@PETERCLIPS your comment for LENOVO tablet was accidently removed...I apologize for this...
these tablets can be found on the LENOVO website...best place to order them, IMO
LENOVO.com (USA)
LENOVO.ca (Canada)
Denis
How would you wire in a coil if you were to use one instead of the copper top? There's 2 wires on this coil I have, very small gauge but I know it needs some kind of ground.
Someone has video out where he's using a coil from an automotive relay. I suspect you're referring to that.
There are things I like about the idea. Such as the possible elimination of a GND wire and yet getting a strong signal. Were I doing it, I would try to connect (+) BNC to wire entering coil and (-) BNC to wire exiting coil. The coil is one continuous wire actually.
What I don't like about the idea is that it is too "makeshift". These coils are delicate and would get easily damaged exposed like that. And cumbersome to use. AND, including the metal core, it's a lot of bare metal exposed to a possible COP zap! Something critics of my probe in this video point out and that goes double with that coil.
I did later add a PVC cap over the copper cap as a modification to this build to help alleviate that concern.
@@theGADGETSplaylist should I ground the black as well as attach it to the coil? My other probes all have ground connectors. Would it even work if it was grounded,
@@alanw5879 - no, I don't think you should have BNC (+) and (-) to the coil and also be grounded.
But, keep in mind it's not my build you're exploring. I haven't tested any of this you want to try...
Test it in a rudimentary way if you can prior to committing to a finish build.
Good luck with it and keep me posted on your results.
@@alanw5879 here's the video where he uses an automotive relay to do what you're trying:
czcams.com/video/8EWDaIHmOts/video.html
@@theGADGETSplaylist will do. I'm going to start with an 20x attenuator first and see if I can get an injector reading. This coil has a million turns on it and the wire is super thin, so I think it will either give a great reading or won't work at all. Thanks for info tho, appreciate it.
What happens if the coil has insulation issues and ignition KV go straight in to you scope ... dead scope i think ! the Pico and others have protection built in to prevent this
yes
@@theGADGETSplaylist So you seem a very switched on chap i like your videos .. there must be some simple circuitry that could protect the scope ! would something like a zener diode do it ?
@@johnfountain8143 - perhaps...
Watch PJ @ Voltage Drop Diagnostics. He built one, makes like it's his design, shits on it due to his fear of lightning and says he uses it because his expensive probes don't work as well.
The reason for its performance is the same as the reason for fear. It is direct. Inserting anything will likely interfere.
The signal from this COP Probe is about 4v ...BUT no current carrying capacity what so ever. Even the HS101 with its 20KΩ impedance interferes with it.
We both would be surprised at how many of these probes have now been built globally. They use them at their risk (minimal) and I haven't heard any negative comments.
very smart doing
+dan man - merci🙂
I mention u on other channels as much as possible. And no I wasn’t aware of adding the plastic cap. I will do that also. I am up to my elbows in a Mazda C-X7. When I finish that or it finishes me I will proceed with the build.
+Bill Rimmer - thanks for plugging the channel, Bill...much appreciated!
Do you have all the reference manual you need for that Mazda. I might be able to help with that should you need...
logical canuck. Thank u so much!! I have the manuals. Also thank u for clearing up that situation with the scope!!
Don't you need to use a step down voltage to protect the scope
+fanfan Guerrier - The copper cap, now covered by a 3/4 PVC cap (modification at suggestion of viewers) in the presence of the COP magnetic field generates about 3v to 4v...so from that perspective it's in the range of even +/-5v input scopes.
If your fear is a spark running up the cap to the scope, then this probe is not for you.
I don't share the concern.
The small voltage produced by the copper carries no current and the quality of the acquisition would be easily affected by any "circuitry" between it and the scope.
It's unimpeded which is why it works so well where other probes often fail.
which model of hantek oscilloscope are you using sir? please
+antonio zanabria - in this video I was using HANTEK HT6022BE
I was thinking of making something similar. I was goi g to use coil wire in a loop at the end. I figured that's how you would get the proper induction of signal to the scope
+Lee Dress - we're conditioned to think induction = coil. But it could be flat also.
And that's if it is induction at work here. I used to think so.
A good friend argued that it's more like an antennae.
The signal from this is in the 3v to 4v range but negligible current (like EXTREMELY low) and I'm starting to lean to the antennae theory.
At any rate, this works very well.
logical canuck I would lean towards the antenna theory as well. Remember the cars from the 60s that had the metal “anti interference” cover to help keep ignition noise out of the radios. I don’t know what all cars bc I work on BMWs but I still remember a 69 427 vette that had one a I asked what it was an engine dress up part or was it functional. He stated it was functional. This is all from a memory when I was 16 and first started messing with cars.
@@rbmwiv got you beat, I was 15...
LOL
Denis
@@rbmwiv - there was a small mod made to this GADGET later...there is a 3/4" PVC end cap added over top the 1/2" copper
logical canuck thanks for the tip.
What scope software are you using
HScope Android app!
You will have more tools than a Snap-on truck pretty soon! :-)
+rs1971camara - YES, but none of them Snap-On to be sure!
@@theGADGETSplaylist Built the probe yesterday. Tested it today with the 1008 and Hscope. Worked great with the cop custom probe settings in Hscope. Thanks for sharing this build!
Is that a male or female BNC?
that is a male BNC
Thanks, I am confused as scopes look to have what I would call "male" connectors, as the BNC cable connector fits over the scope connector and twists on.
@@vchilders1979 yep, it's counterintuitive:)
🏆
que legal vou fazer um pra min
+Alex Serafim - boa sorte!🙂
You don't have (or never mentioned) any protection for the scope. If a spark ever jumps to the copper cap (due to a bad coil package) you can write off the channel input to your scope (or the whole scope). A real paddle probe is capacitor coupled and offers some protection from sparks. IMO I would not recommend building this probe.
+Dave Sage - It might be a risk. Maybe I should invest $400 in a manufactured probe and protect my $75 HT6022...
I kept both the build and the risk assessment simple.
I think it's unlikely. If it happens, I'll buy another scope.
That said, your point is well taken, Dave and I thank you for bringing it up. It is possible.
Actually the AESWAVE website site lists their flexible paddle probe for $69 US.
www.aeswave.com/cop-secondary-paddle-lead-capacitive-p9151.html
As far as an improvement to your design I suspect a small metal disk under a plastic (insulated) cap on the end of your tube would give you a signal without the need for the exposed metal cap.
+Dave Sage - I am Canadian
There would be brokerage fees, shipping, taxes, exchange rates...that's no longer $69...
I see a few probes for $400 on Amazon.ca
This video concentrated on proof of concept and the build. I am making a 2nd video which will concentrate on acquisition quality, custom probe setting within HScope to apply Kv scale and also invert the signal (you may have noticed it's upside down), and analysis of multi-strike secondary wave forms (something not often covered on CZcams). In that video, I'll mention your concerns and issue a disclaimer - USE AT YOUR OWN RISK - which goes for everything I do here.
But I, personally have no issues with this DIY COP PROBE as is.
I do appreciate your participation on here. Thanks very much, Dave.
I feel your pain. I'm Canadian too.
Maybe you'll try my suggestion of a simple disk (or just a coil of wire) inside a plastic cap. There is no real need for an exposed metal probe tip. The EMF will be un-impeded by the plastic. Enjoying your other tips. Keep at it. Thanks.
Check out my projects. davesage.ca/
+Dave Sage - I had already quickly checked your CZcams channel but was not aware of your website.
VERY IMPRESSIVE!
You will want to reasearch what a correct firing waveform looks like. Most of your waveforms are nothing like what you should be seeing. There's is no obvious multi spark occurring on your engine, just a mess of noise from your sensor. Here is an example of what you want to see to correctly diagnose firing events - www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/92689/Waveform-diagnostics-Ignition-diagnostics-you-will-actually-use?Page=3.
+BearNPum - This engine does employ a multi-strike strategy! The DIY COP PROBE picks it up beautifully. Your link is a waste spark system. Not a COP. I am not impressed!
I edited my comment above slightly. I have found reference to some newer Fords having a multi spark at idle, but can't find any waveforms that would verify this in 2000'ish F150's. I will try my 5.4 in the near future and see. Also, I would say that the posted link may not be the best example, but the shown waveform from the Subaru waste spark system is very much the same as you will get from a distributor, distributor less (DIS) and coil on plug (COP) ignition. Just because it is a waste spark system doesn’t mean it is an invalid example. The in cylinder firing event for all these systems are basically the same. I have seen a good example of all the systems, plus multi spark, shown on the same page. They are all basically the same and have the same waveform. Can't find that page now. But maybe this will do - Quote "Elements of the Secondary Ignition Pattern
: These parameters are practically the same for all types of ignition systems." -
autoditex.com/page/secondary-ignition-33-1.html .
Looking closer at your video, there is some hope for the waveform at mark 5:35. But, it is still very noisy and would be difficult to use that information to determine if the ignition is good or bad.
@@BearNPum - you were wrong and you were rude