Yeah, among the first trilogy books that was the one I liked the least. I actually ADORE Children of Dune. But given what Villeneuve did to the ending of Dune Part 2... Yeah. His Dune Messiah will be the talk of the town. In one way or another. And I hope Jason Momoa can carry the movie alongside Timothee. Plus, there's the new role Chani will play in this version of Messiah. And will Denis disregard the Tleilaxu the way he did Mentats and the Spaceing Guild?
@@ashaide I'm curious myself. I can almost guarantee Timothee will nail it. He's really versatile and was able to handle all the changes of Paul. Momoa will be interestif they get him again. He's the right choice for the character, I'm hoping they can to at least God Emperor of Dune. That one would be amazing.
I really liked Messiah. When reading it, the book felt like an in-between project Herbert was working on after Dune but didn't know what he wanted to do with it however it added more substance to Dune and Children of Dune. People will like it if the director knows what he's doing. Thus far DV hasn't failed.
@@chaost4544 What I think Denis Villeneuve was doing with part 2 when he changed the ending was setting us up for Messiah. His ending was almost perfect because of seg-way to Messiah. So many subversions in Messiah will be a surprise to many of the uninitiated. Messiah I consider to be the real first book where Dune was a setup/prelude to the story since that's where we get Herbert's themes. Paul's actions at the end add that "It's not as triumphant as you think it is". I truly hope they go at least to God Emperor of Dune. I would be in Heaven then.
@@chaost4544 From what I heard, Messiah was Herbert's reaction to readers who... misread his intent with Dune, which is to NOT love and admire Paul. Even with the movie, people - including me, a fan of the books - were ready to shout "Lisan al-Gaib!" due to Timothee's Oscar-worthy performance. So maybe Denis is trying to do the same with his version of Messiah? XD
If I were Denis, I would tell the story from the viewpoint of Scytale, Irulan and Chani (perhaps Stillgar too), instead of entering the head of Paul. That way Paul would still be a distant, alien figure, just like what he did after he took the water of life in the second movie. If he uses the Ghola, he can be another POV to investigate Paul's mind. Also, there is Alia, but I don't think she is a a good POV character since she is also a "kind of" Kwisatz Haderach, what is something that I never quite accepted very well, but well, children of dune plot's depends on this.
That’s an interesting idea, I wonder if Denis will consider that. I do however feel he specifically wants to make dune messiah as it closes out Paul’s story essentially, and it’ll be a nice bookend to his trilogy. I think Paul fascinates him the most and that’s why he only wanted to adapt the first two novels. Time will tell though!
I like it takes Stilgar point of view, it would be tragic but interesting nonetheless and Javier are one of the best actor to portraying that tragedy 😅
Hmmmmm i would like to them focus on Paul outside being the main lead, messiah in part is good because throw the whole novel Paul is making radical decision and nobody knows why, but if we are talking about a second lead i think it goes for Alia, Hayt, Stilgar and of course Chani that i am very interesting in seen how her character develop (i would like to know what you think it could happend) i also have to say after comparimg Chani novel and chani movie i have to say that to me Chani movie is way more interesting in my opinion PD: Not saying what you are saying its bad i would take away that idea either
I’m about 1/3 through Children of Dune. I’m very much enjoying it! I also am really excited to get to God Emperor Dune as it seems to be a lot of peoples 2nd favorite novel in the series
@@formerfilmstudent8349 There are big time jumps in the later books. That's a little jarring at first, but they are still great. I think they are all quite different books.
@@travisgray8376 Yes. I actually think combining messiah and children of dune, like the tv mini series did, makes more sense, as it allows you to pick the best bits and ignore some of the stuff that won't vibe with people who are not invested in the universe of the books.
There are some hanging threads from the first book that will definitely come up in messiah, like they have to reconcile Chani and Paul (assuming they want to leave messiah in a similar place to the book). They also haven’t really talked about his sister and what being “pre born” means. They haven’t even really explained what Paul is now. Other things will likely be played for more dramatic effect like the gola(sp?) plot line. Messiah also introduces more of the other houses. I’d also wonder how much of Paul’s conquest is shown, because in the book it’s just after it’s all done, and I suspect the timeline is going to be condensed. Yes, it’ll be very different, but I think there are enough plot lines and elements to help craft a very compelling story.
I think one way to bring chani back is to make her find out shes pregnant when she arrives where shes going. Also maybe the war putting the tribes at risk so they have to fight together.
Messiah is the best of Herbert's six novels for me. It's a great, gut-wrenching tragedy and the ending is so powerful and so hunting. I'm sure Villeneuve will turn it in a memorable masterpiece.
First off I loved DUNE Part 1,and am will most likely enjoy Part 2. The only problem with Dennis' adaptation has to do with the Spacing Guild,or lack of them. Yes, the Sisterhood are important,but The Guild controls space travel. The Sisterhood would not be able to do there work without a way to travel to the many planets. The Harkonin,and the Emperor would not have been able to execute there plan without The Guild. At the end of DUNE, The Guild, unwilling, side with Paul. Because of the extra huge amount of spice they need. The Guild are one of the biggest members in the plot against Paul, because of the Spice. I hope Dennis gives more time to show who the Guild are, so that it is understood that there are more then the Sisterhood and the Fremin who are against Paul in the 3rd movie.
I feel like Denis might, if not change things, certainly add more from Children of Dune which has more of a finale of Paul Atreides' story. Like maybe Chani will lead a Fremen rebellion, which DOES technically happen in the series, just not led by Chani and not in Messiah. Probably to make it more cinematic and to give the story more of an epic finale feel that he can walk away from. He doesn't seem to be interested in adapting any of the other books.
Essentially we’ll see a likeable kid who was Moses, Lawrence and King Arthur rolled into one turn into Macbeth, Tamerlane, Faust, and Oedipus rolled into one. Quite a switch. Especially shocked will be two groups. 1) All the teenage girls who crush on Timothee the way their grandmothers did on Paul McCartney. “He’s so CUUUUUTE!!!” 2) I’ve noticed that there have been Muslim reactors on CZcams who are thrilled by all this. “Finally! People are taking us seriously! Hurray for the Madhi!” They don’t recognize that Paul is a false Messiah and his jihad leads to countless innocent deaths for absolutely nothing. What does that say about Islam?
I think like part 2, the director will make a lot of necessary changes to messiah's story that will elevate it to better overall plot making it easier to grasp Messiah's crazy themes. Still could be bad because third movies in trilogies often are the worse of the bunch.
Not always though. Civil War is better than First Avenger. War for the planet of the apes is the best of the 3. The Worlds End is an excellent entry in the Cornetto trilogy. Return of the king is excellent and better than two towers. But I agree I think Denis will most likely make changes to the story and scope to make it a more accessible story
Terrific video! I share your concerns about Dune Messiah, but based on what Denis has done so far, I have faith that he'll once again find a way to tweak the story and characters to make a compelling movie that still conveys the important themes in the book. Just to set the stage I could see him spending the first third of the film showing us the horrors of the jihad (okay, the "Holy War") as well as Paul's reconciliation with Chani. That would provide opportunities to satisfy audience expectations with a couple of big set pieces as well as intimate character moments. Then a time jump could allow act two to start where Dune Messiah does, with the conspiracy to overthrow Paul and the introduction of Hayt as a pivotal character. Act three would show us the outcome of the conspiracy and the ultimate resolution of Paul's character journey. It will be quite a filmmaking challenge, but I suspect Denis has envisioned many different ways of tackling that challenge and sees "a narrow way through."
The way in which chani is vastly different in the films as opposed to the novel has me very intrigued on how messiah will play out on screen! Excellent point. Thanks for watching!
It would be great to make Chani retake the ecology plot. I think that the strange plot to avoid children's of CHani can be averted by making Paul and Chani be apart for 18 years. The spice keeps people from aging, so you don't need to overdo makeup. Paul could be secretly funding Chani ecology project and them make a move to reconquer her. They may or may not make Chani related to Kynes, as in the book. I really miss the ecological aspect of the novel, as much as the AI discussion. Instead os starting with Chani and Paul in bed, like in the book, it is much more interesiting showing the two reaproaching to terraform Arrakis.
@@alexandretorres5087 I don’t think they’ll make her the daughter of Kynes as I do feel like they would have mentioned it in the first two films. But I am curious as the book and film end on very different notes for chani.
I'm not worried about Denis' ability to adapt Dune Messiah. I'm worried about the general audience's ability to accept the idea that "hero worship bad" and "religious hero worship really bad" We will likely only see the other books on film if Dune Messiah is a financial success.
I was in the middle of Herbert's sixth Book 'Chapter House Dune' around the time of 9/11/2001 but after 20 plus years have passed I do recall appreciating Messiah the least. If I wasn't encouraged to cont' on I would've stopped with Book II,& sure enough Children of Dune Book III breaths fresh air into the Mythos, with the series's Pinnacle being God Emperor of Dune. Not sure if audiences will "Hate" Messiah but Denis will have to find ways to breath intrigue into the story given how dark,& morose it is.
I think he will take the first third of the movie to show the jihad, so the movie won't be so "boring", or he will intersect scenes of the jihad throughout the movie
Guarantee like 80% or more of Dune Messiah isn’t adapted w/o major changes already in motion by changes Denis has made that it might just be part 3 not Messiah. Except story arc and foundation and Paul’s fate.
For sure it’s not for everyone. It’s much more about character and very plot heavy. Alien is a masterpiece but that’s entirely about the atmosphere and claustrophobic horror. Very different kinds of sci-fi
Ya two different kinds for sure. Maybe it’s the characters and what I felt there was “no pay off” for the time I invested into these films. I didn’t really think any character evolved either. Well I know Paul basically becomes Hitler and mother changed but everyone seem to stay status quo. Again I’m not hating on anyone that liked it here. I’m just trying to find the love people have for it and compare it’s to legendary films like Empire Strikes Back, Two Towers, Godfather 2 etc.. why is it not clicking with me on that same level.
@@CromKull19 I appreciate the respect! And again it’s not gonna be for everyone. I can only speak for myself as I love the visual storytelling of the films. I love the world of dune. I think both films have a great score by Han Zimmer. And story wise I love the themes of religion and messiah figures. How dangerous they can be. And just Paul as a character I find fascinating. His origins and where he ends up. His fight against his own horrific destiny. All of it I just find really interesting
The only people surprised and disappointed will be those who haven't read the books and fanboys expecting a movie that follows the battles, not the political and character study of a 30 year old man in one place. I don't think Villaneuve will be making that movie. I tend to think he will try to please both audiences by placing some of the Dune Messiah conflict on campaign. It's not 12 years later. He's going to shorten the time span again so we still get the regrets and political intrigue of Dune Messiah but it's happening in between "cool" battles still ongoing.
I actually think the opposite I think he’ll do an even bigger time skip to age up Alia since we didn’t see her as a child in the first two films. Maybe an 18-20 year time skip.
@@benjalucian1515 I don’t think so. There’s plenty of instances of making an actor look older through makeup or hell maybe cgi will advance enough to age him up digitally
@@formerfilmstudent8349 I don't like that idea because such actions usually take people _out_ of the movie, because they're too busy trying to see the flaws and where the protheses end and how real does the makeup look, etc., etc., and the message of Messiah is too important to be overshadowed by something so trivial.
I agree! Dune messiah is not for normal movie audince customers. I will like it, but i also,know what to expect. But those looking action scifi film… will not like it…
[Spoilers] Changes in Villeneuve's film I didn't like: 1 The loss of gravitas. Paul, Stilgar, and Chani and the Fremen and the structure and functioning of their societies in general lose much of their archetypal nature. Instead of being eternal, distant, and mysterious beings, they are made to seem more human, smiling, and humorous, flirtatious, etc... They're not that way at all in the book. In the same way, all the formalized ceremony surrounding the drinking and sharing of the Water of Life was sorely lacking. Jessica and Paul just sort of showed up and swiveled it down. 2 The heterogeneity of Fremen reaction towards Paul is great, but never would the disbelievers be snickering in the background as others were trying to pray. 3 The Bene Gesserit didn't order the destruction of House Atreides 4 Initiation and the struggle for acceptance within a new tribe is fundamental to the book, but things simply went way too fast in the movie. They should have shortened some of the exposition to focus more on this aspect of Paul's path. 5 Rabban was made to seem weak vis à vis to Feyd 6 Although they did fine, the actors playing the Emperor, Irulan, and Stilgar wouldn't have been my picks. Also, no tantalizing scenes of what life at the Emperor's court were shown. Instead, it felt as if we were in an Italian cemetery. 7 It was the transformation of Stilgar's and Chani's characters that disappoints me the most. Chani was 200% behind Paul in the book and definitely believed that he was the One. They had a child together and he constantly reassured her she was the woman he loved, but that the marriage with Irulan was imperative. Chani comes off as petulant during the last part of the film. Too much focus was upon their relationship. 8 Jessica wouldn't use the voice on the Fremen to give orders. 9 The threat of destroying Dune with atomics was enough to keep the other Houses in line. How could the Fremen just hop into huge stolen space vessels and run off on a holy war? 10 Almost no mention or role for the Guild, one of the pillars of the Imperium 11 Too little subtlety as far as Jessica's manipulation of the Fremen. Special shout-out to Lady Fenring who was great! I enjoyed the film overall (music, special effects, desert scenes, battles, overall impression, acting), but I definitely have my reservations.
Totally fair assessment. I think adaptation wise there’s stuff I did miss. I liked Chani being the daughter of Liet Kynes, and the stress and accusation game that occurs when they first arrive on arrakis. As well as smaller role given to thuffif hawat. But overall felt like Denis did an amazing job at shifting the story and characters just enough to make it his own while still understanding what makes the story work at its core. It did enough right for me in terms of adapting the necessary elements crucial to the book. I did after reading the novel find a greater appreciation for both. And ultimately ended up loving the novel story more. But also loved the film for its own reasons. There’s plenty of live action adaptions that completely miss the mark like Netflix’s last air bender show or the live action death note. So I just appreciate that Denis brought dune to the big screen successfully and made something that fans of the novel and general audiences can enjoy
I wish Denis would quit this pretentious "I don't release deleted scenes" crap. Even splitting the first book into two movies, he left out a LOT, most of all the Spacing Guild. The weirdness and richness of the Dune world is sucked out too much. No baby Alia was a bad choice, and I'll die on that hill. Messiah can be great, but I worry he'll somehow leave out the guild, face dancers, the ghola, etc.
It will definitely be very affected by the choices made so far, and also the general style. He obviously has no faith in audiences following a convoluted plot, so the whole conspiracy will probably be extremely simplified. Like you said, the Guild has more or less been removed from the story, which makes it difficult for them to be a major player here. Will he keep the Face Dancers? That leaves the Bene Gesserit and Irulan. However, Paul’s refusal to give Irulan a child is very much tied to Chani trying to become pregnant, which is NOT compatible with how we left Chani in Part 2. I could imagine Paul being full on evil (and not doubting himself), with Chani leading a rebellion to eventually show him the error of his ways.
@@asbjrnandersen4222 if Chani ends up being a full blown scorned girl boss in the next movie, and even worse, joins in with the Fremen plotting against Paul, I'll gladly ignore the movie. I definitely still enjoy the Dune movies he made so far. I do wish he hadn't changed Chani, and just added a few more minutes to give us a bit more about the world of Dune that is *relevant* to the whole story. I can understand needing to trim down some things, but no Spacing Guild? Mentats BARELY exist. Paul's mentat ability is removed entirely. The Fremen culture is dramatically reduced, and made to be out like this egalitarian society. Jamis's family is entirely removed. He cut a lot of stuff that actually enriches the lore and world of Paul. I worry for the next movie. If he couldn't stomach the actual sci-fi elements of the first book, how the heck is he gonna handle an actual Navigator in a tank, or as you say, a face dancer? Will Hayt be a thing at all?
I don’t know I respect it. What he cuts he cuts. And sticks to it. What he releases is his vision. I respect that more than Zack Snyder announcing a directors cut before the regular film is released. I agree he left out some stuff but let’s keep in mind both films are well over 2 hours. And at the end of the day the studio still needs profit. Too long of a run time means less showings. I think he did a pretty good job of making the film his own, while still capturing the heart and core of the novel. To the Alia point, it just wouldn’t work. Having a toddler try to deliver dialogue that sounds like it’s an adult wouldn’t work. We saw it in the Lynch version. Most child actors can’t deliver kid lines well, let alone adult dialogue. That aside, thanks for watching and commenting :) I appreciate the response and feedback
@@formerfilmstudent8349 I also respect that he cut it down, but I like what Peter Jackson did with LOTR, where he acknowledged that it’s easier to stomach an overlong movie at home :)
@@formerfilmstudent8349 "it just didn't work" because he didn't even try when all the modern movie tech would have finally been able to bring alia to life the way she deserved. Personally, I don't respect the decisions to leave all the extra scenes out. The Dune fans who've been wanting a decent adaptation for decades have earned it imo. And again, leaving out the spacing guild is a huge misstep. The guild are VITAL to the entire ending of the first book. They put it all into context. Their control over interstellar space flight and reliance on spice is the whole reason Paul taking over Arrakis is such a big problem for everyone, and makes the Emperor essentially powerless.
Ima be real here, they built up a galactic jihad for 200,000 words and then Faded to Black. One of the biggest let downs in fiction right there. He's a good writer and it was choice for Herbert to skip it, but there's so much wasted potential.
That’s a totally fair assessment, I know a lot of fans rank it as their least favorite book. And I’ll admit I wish it was longer. I do enjoy the story especially the character work with Paul. But definitely feel like it wasn’t as fleshed out as I would have liked. Still enjoyed the read tho, however, I’m enjoying children of dune a lot more
@@formerfilmstudent8349I actually prefer what frank did. So easy to turn dune into another action series but dune was never that n it's others fault for perceived as such.
TBF that is a Herbert trademark. Even the battle of Arakeen at the end of the first "Dune" book was something of a denouement and the latter books continue that tradition. *Spoilers: If You Have Not Read Past "Dune Messiah"* I have been rereading them lately and just finished "Heretics of Dune" and found myself chuckling at the rather terse climax to that part of the story. The strategic and mental prowess of the Bashar Miles Teg are built up throughout the entire novel and just when you think you are about to experience an absolutely epic showdown between him, his gathered forces of veteran fighters and the new villains in the form of the powerful and ruthless super-power presented by the Honored Matres... TEG: Men! I have a dangerous and daring task for you! We are going to attack the Honored Matres and steal a No-Ship which will be heavily guarded and will be an almost impossible feat. Are you with me? Good! Gather your weapons, and let's go! ...Literally Next Chapter... TEG: Well, that sure was a difficult and exciting battle, but we sure outfought them and got the mission accomplished. On to Rakis where we will goad our enemies into a suicidal, titanic battle for control of Rakis (Arrakis). ...Literally Next Chapter... It was an incredible last stand for the ages! Oh, and Arrakis was completely destroyed. Gone. The planet entirely obliterated. ...Then End. 😂😂😂 I am not really criticizing though - action and adventure is just not something that particularly interested Herbert, and really Dune is about big ideas, intellectual struggles, and relationships. There are plenty of swashbuckling stories and writers that spin excellent stories in that vein.
@formerfilmstudent8349 to state in advance to people you don't know, let alone even see, that they will hate something is disgusting clickbait/monetization tactics.
@@bober1019 never said it did :) but I appreciate the comments. Every comment even negative and even dislikes count as engagement. I do appreciate it, thank you.
A year or so back i had my knee completely replaced and re read the entire series back to back I thought DV's Dune II was a masterpiece best fantasy film I've seen since The 2 Towers The omissions and extras seem to flow perfectly in DV's Dune universe.
Couldn’t agree more. He did an excellent job at knowing what to include, and what could be changed without changing the true heart of the story! Sorry about your knee I hope you’re happy and healthy and doing well!
Not really a white savior movie. The film and by extension the novel are about the dangers of religion and the problem with messiah figures. Paul isn’t the savior of the Fremen. He uses them and manipulates them to assist in his own goal.
"Paul sees himself as a monster, the likes of which will never be repeated in history."
His son Leto: Hold my beer.
Lawerence of Space Arabia was great
It’s not a stretch to say people won’t like Dune Messiah. The book was not well received at first. It got its due years later.
Yeah, among the first trilogy books that was the one I liked the least. I actually ADORE Children of Dune.
But given what Villeneuve did to the ending of Dune Part 2... Yeah. His Dune Messiah will be the talk of the town. In one way or another.
And I hope Jason Momoa can carry the movie alongside Timothee.
Plus, there's the new role Chani will play in this version of Messiah.
And will Denis disregard the Tleilaxu the way he did Mentats and the Spaceing Guild?
@@ashaide I'm curious myself. I can almost guarantee Timothee will nail it. He's really versatile and was able to handle all the changes of Paul. Momoa will be interestif they get him again. He's the right choice for the character, I'm hoping they can to at least God Emperor of Dune. That one would be amazing.
I really liked Messiah. When reading it, the book felt like an in-between project Herbert was working on after Dune but didn't know what he wanted to do with it however it added more substance to Dune and Children of Dune. People will like it if the director knows what he's doing. Thus far DV hasn't failed.
@@chaost4544 What I think Denis Villeneuve was doing with part 2 when he changed the ending was setting us up for Messiah. His ending was almost perfect because of seg-way to Messiah. So many subversions in Messiah will be a surprise to many of the uninitiated. Messiah I consider to be the real first book where Dune was a setup/prelude to the story since that's where we get Herbert's themes. Paul's actions at the end add that "It's not as triumphant as you think it is". I truly hope they go at least to God Emperor of Dune. I would be in Heaven then.
@@chaost4544 From what I heard, Messiah was Herbert's reaction to readers who... misread his intent with Dune, which is to NOT love and admire Paul.
Even with the movie, people - including me, a fan of the books - were ready to shout "Lisan al-Gaib!" due to Timothee's Oscar-worthy performance.
So maybe Denis is trying to do the same with his version of Messiah? XD
If there's anyone that can make Genghis Khan sympathetic to a regular movie going audience, Dennis Villaneuva can.
If I were Denis, I would tell the story from the viewpoint of Scytale, Irulan and Chani (perhaps Stillgar too), instead of entering the head of Paul. That way Paul would still be a distant, alien figure, just like what he did after he took the water of life in the second movie. If he uses the Ghola, he can be another POV to investigate Paul's mind. Also, there is Alia, but I don't think she is a a good POV character since she is also a "kind of" Kwisatz Haderach, what is something that I never quite accepted very well, but well, children of dune plot's depends on this.
That’s an interesting idea, I wonder if Denis will consider that. I do however feel he specifically wants to make dune messiah as it closes out Paul’s story essentially, and it’ll be a nice bookend to his trilogy. I think Paul fascinates him the most and that’s why he only wanted to adapt the first two novels. Time will tell though!
If Deni were going to do that he certainly made the right changes in Dune 2 to make that happen.
Im liking this take
I like it takes Stilgar point of view, it would be tragic but interesting nonetheless and Javier are one of the best actor to portraying that tragedy 😅
Hmmmmm i would like to them focus on Paul outside being the main lead, messiah in part is good because throw the whole novel Paul is making radical decision and nobody knows why, but if we are talking about a second lead i think it goes for Alia, Hayt, Stilgar and of course Chani that i am very interesting in seen how her character develop (i would like to know what you think it could happend) i also have to say after comparimg Chani novel and chani movie i have to say that to me Chani movie is way more interesting in my opinion
PD: Not saying what you are saying its bad i would take away that idea either
DV has already deviated so far from the books, his Dune Messiah will barely resemble the book. He'll essentially be writing his own story.
Another missed opportunity.
I agree. I love all 6 books, but I am nervous how messiah will be received.
I’m about 1/3 through Children of Dune. I’m very much enjoying it! I also am really excited to get to God Emperor Dune as it seems to be a lot of peoples 2nd favorite novel in the series
@@formerfilmstudent8349 There are big time jumps in the later books. That's a little jarring at first, but they are still great. I think they are all quite different books.
Children of dune would be a better conclusion to the dune story but Denis Villeneuve will do what he wants.
@@travisgray8376 Yes. I actually think combining messiah and children of dune, like the tv mini series did, makes more sense, as it allows you to pick the best bits and ignore some of the stuff that won't vibe with people who are not invested in the universe of the books.
who cares how it's received?
There are some hanging threads from the first book that will definitely come up in messiah, like they have to reconcile Chani and Paul (assuming they want to leave messiah in a similar place to the book). They also haven’t really talked about his sister and what being “pre born” means. They haven’t even really explained what Paul is now. Other things will likely be played for more dramatic effect like the gola(sp?) plot line. Messiah also introduces more of the other houses. I’d also wonder how much of Paul’s conquest is shown, because in the book it’s just after it’s all done, and I suspect the timeline is going to be condensed. Yes, it’ll be very different, but I think there are enough plot lines and elements to help craft a very compelling story.
I think one way to bring chani back is to make her find out shes pregnant when she arrives where shes going. Also maybe the war putting the tribes at risk so they have to fight together.
I liked it.
I just think with the Dune sequels you need to know what you’re getting yourself into.
Messiah is the best of Herbert's six novels for me. It's a great, gut-wrenching tragedy and the ending is so powerful and so hunting. I'm sure Villeneuve will turn it in a memorable masterpiece.
Im with you 👍🏻
Agreed!
I won’t. I actually really like the book. But ya I think main stream audiences probably won’t like it. And I’m here for that.
I also really enjoyed the novel!
First off I loved DUNE Part 1,and am will most likely enjoy Part 2. The only problem with Dennis' adaptation has to do with the Spacing Guild,or lack of them. Yes, the Sisterhood are important,but The Guild controls space travel. The Sisterhood would not be able to do there work without a way to travel to the many planets. The Harkonin,and the Emperor would not have been able to execute there plan without The Guild. At the end of DUNE, The Guild, unwilling, side with Paul. Because of the extra huge amount of spice they need. The Guild are one of the biggest members in the plot against Paul, because of the Spice. I hope Dennis gives more time to show who the Guild are, so that it is understood that there are more then the Sisterhood and the Fremin who are against Paul in the 3rd movie.
I feel like Denis might, if not change things, certainly add more from Children of Dune which has more of a finale of Paul Atreides' story. Like maybe Chani will lead a Fremen rebellion, which DOES technically happen in the series, just not led by Chani and not in Messiah. Probably to make it more cinematic and to give the story more of an epic finale feel that he can walk away from. He doesn't seem to be interested in adapting any of the other books.
I’m excited for DUNE MESSIAH. I think it will be epic as well in Denis hands. I love the book as well and am also a huge DUNE fan.
Great video. Look forward to more.
Thanks for watching and commenting! More content on the way
Essentially we’ll see a likeable kid who was Moses, Lawrence and King Arthur rolled into one turn into Macbeth, Tamerlane, Faust, and Oedipus rolled into one. Quite a switch. Especially shocked will be two groups. 1) All the teenage girls who crush on Timothee the way their grandmothers did on Paul McCartney. “He’s so CUUUUUTE!!!” 2) I’ve noticed that there have been Muslim reactors on CZcams who are thrilled by all this. “Finally! People are taking us seriously! Hurray for the Madhi!” They don’t recognize that Paul is a false Messiah and his jihad leads to countless innocent deaths for absolutely nothing. What does that say about Islam?
There are two types of Dune fanatics in the world...Those before reading 'God Emperor Of Dune' and those after.
I’m so excited to get to that novel. Still making my way through Children
real
He must take his time
I think like part 2, the director will make a lot of necessary changes to messiah's story that will elevate it to better overall plot making it easier to grasp Messiah's crazy themes. Still could be bad because third movies in trilogies often are the worse of the bunch.
Not always though. Civil War is better than First Avenger. War for the planet of the apes is the best of the 3. The Worlds End is an excellent entry in the Cornetto trilogy. Return of the king is excellent and better than two towers.
But I agree I think Denis will most likely make changes to the story and scope to make it a more accessible story
I’m pretty sure I’ll like Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.
Terrific video! I share your concerns about Dune Messiah, but based on what Denis has done so far, I have faith that he'll once again find a way to tweak the story and characters to make a compelling movie that still conveys the important themes in the book.
Just to set the stage I could see him spending the first third of the film showing us the horrors of the jihad (okay, the "Holy War") as well as Paul's reconciliation with Chani. That would provide opportunities to satisfy audience expectations with a couple of big set pieces as well as intimate character moments. Then a time jump could allow act two to start where Dune Messiah does, with the conspiracy to overthrow Paul and the introduction of Hayt as a pivotal character. Act three would show us the outcome of the conspiracy and the ultimate resolution of Paul's character journey.
It will be quite a filmmaking challenge, but I suspect Denis has envisioned many different ways of tackling that challenge and sees "a narrow way through."
100% agree!
I'm guessing the treatment of Chani in Dune 2 allows Denis to externalise Paul's feelings regarding his actions in a way that will work in cinema.
The way in which chani is vastly different in the films as opposed to the novel has me very intrigued on how messiah will play out on screen! Excellent point. Thanks for watching!
It would be great to make Chani retake the ecology plot. I think that the strange plot to avoid children's of CHani can be averted by making Paul and Chani be apart for 18 years. The spice keeps people from aging, so you don't need to overdo makeup. Paul could be secretly funding Chani ecology project and them make a move to reconquer her. They may or may not make Chani related to Kynes, as in the book. I really miss the ecological aspect of the novel, as much as the AI discussion. Instead os starting with Chani and Paul in bed, like in the book, it is much more interesiting showing the two reaproaching to terraform Arrakis.
@@alexandretorres5087 I don’t think they’ll make her the daughter of Kynes as I do feel like they would have mentioned it in the first two films. But I am curious as the book and film end on very different notes for chani.
I absolutely love Dune Messiah, but i'm still nervous as it seems extremely diifficult to film.
Agreed. But hey for decades the first Dune novel was considered impossible to adapt. And here we are. Time will tell I guess.
@@formerfilmstudent8349 Right. if anyone can do it's probably Villeneuve.
I'm not worried about Denis' ability to adapt Dune Messiah. I'm worried about the general audience's ability to accept the idea that "hero worship bad" and "religious hero worship really bad"
We will likely only see the other books on film if Dune Messiah is a financial success.
I really loved Messiah its a tragic story Paul in the end is a slave of Destiny
I really enjoyed it as well. Paul sets out to avenge his father and in the midst falls into space and time and becomes a monster
I was in the middle of Herbert's sixth Book 'Chapter House Dune' around the time of 9/11/2001 but after 20 plus years have passed I do recall appreciating Messiah the least. If I wasn't encouraged to cont' on I would've stopped with Book II,& sure enough Children of Dune Book III breaths fresh air into the Mythos, with the series's Pinnacle being God Emperor of Dune. Not sure if audiences will "Hate" Messiah but Denis will have to find ways to breath intrigue into the story given how dark,& morose it is.
I think he will take the first third of the movie to show the jihad, so the movie won't be so "boring", or he will intersect scenes of the jihad throughout the movie
I could definitely see it being show maybe not the first 3rd but maybe first 5-10mins or like you said spliced throughout the film!
lol fair play for admitting to clickbait I guess! as for messiah itself, I agree it won't be a walk in the park
lol thanks, yeah I don’t actually think people will hate it. I just think it’ll most likely be more divisive than the previous 2
I think they should combine dune messiah and children of dune to fina,I've the paul arc. Use 2 film structure.
That’s an interesting idea, however, Denis has been adamant he only wants to adapt Messiah and that be his final film
Guarantee like 80% or more of Dune Messiah isn’t adapted w/o major changes already in motion by changes Denis has made that it might just be part 3 not Messiah. Except story arc and foundation and Paul’s fate.
Tbh this sounds interesting
The sharp deviation from the book lore is the factor that will prevent this movie from reaching cult classic status.
I can't wait for Dune Messiah film... it's gonna finish off DV's trilogy PERFECTLY.
Me too! I need it now haha
Crazy I can’t even put Dune films with films like Alien. The film really bored the hell out of me. To each their own though.
For sure it’s not for everyone. It’s much more about character and very plot heavy. Alien is a masterpiece but that’s entirely about the atmosphere and claustrophobic horror. Very different kinds of sci-fi
Ya two different kinds for sure. Maybe it’s the characters and what I felt there was “no pay off” for the time I invested into these films. I didn’t really think any character evolved either. Well I know Paul basically becomes Hitler and mother changed but everyone seem to stay status quo. Again I’m not hating on anyone that liked it here. I’m just trying to find the love people have for it and compare it’s to legendary films like Empire Strikes Back, Two Towers, Godfather 2 etc.. why is it not clicking with me on that same level.
@@CromKull19 I appreciate the respect! And again it’s not gonna be for everyone.
I can only speak for myself as I love the visual storytelling of the films. I love the world of dune. I think both films have a great score by Han Zimmer.
And story wise I love the themes of religion and messiah figures. How dangerous they can be. And just Paul as a character I find fascinating. His origins and where he ends up. His fight against his own horrific destiny. All of it I just find really interesting
The only people surprised and disappointed will be those who haven't read the books and fanboys expecting a movie that follows the battles, not the political and character study of a 30 year old man in one place. I don't think Villaneuve will be making that movie. I tend to think he will try to please both audiences by placing some of the Dune Messiah conflict on campaign. It's not 12 years later. He's going to shorten the time span again so we still get the regrets and political intrigue of Dune Messiah but it's happening in between "cool" battles still ongoing.
Though thinking on this further, not sure how he's going to shoehorn 30 year old Anya-Taylor Joy into the 15 year old Alia role.
I actually think the opposite I think he’ll do an even bigger time skip to age up Alia since we didn’t see her as a child in the first two films. Maybe an 18-20 year time skip.
@@formerfilmstudent8349 Do you think they'll find another actor for Paul? It would be difficult to age up Timothee to a 40 year old man.
@@benjalucian1515 I don’t think so. There’s plenty of instances of making an actor look older through makeup or hell maybe cgi will advance enough to age him up digitally
@@formerfilmstudent8349 I don't like that idea because such actions usually take people _out_ of the movie, because they're too busy trying to see the flaws and where the protheses end and how real does the makeup look, etc., etc., and the message of Messiah is too important to be overshadowed by something so trivial.
I agree!
Dune messiah is not for normal movie audince customers.
I will like it, but i also,know what to expect. But those looking action scifi film… will not like it…
Denis might add a little more spectacle into it. But hopefully it still captures the drama of the novel.
[Spoilers] Changes in Villeneuve's film I didn't like:
1 The loss of gravitas. Paul, Stilgar, and Chani and the Fremen and the structure and functioning of their societies in general lose much of their archetypal nature. Instead of being eternal, distant, and mysterious beings, they are made to seem more human, smiling, and humorous, flirtatious, etc... They're not that way at all in the book.
In the same way, all the formalized ceremony surrounding the drinking and sharing of the Water of Life was sorely lacking. Jessica and Paul just sort of showed up and swiveled it down.
2 The heterogeneity of Fremen reaction towards Paul is great, but never would the disbelievers be snickering in the background as others were trying to pray.
3 The Bene Gesserit didn't order the destruction of House Atreides
4 Initiation and the struggle for acceptance within a new tribe is fundamental to the book, but things simply went way too fast in the movie. They should have shortened some of the exposition to focus more on this aspect of Paul's path.
5 Rabban was made to seem weak vis à vis to Feyd
6 Although they did fine, the actors playing the Emperor, Irulan, and Stilgar wouldn't have been my picks. Also, no tantalizing scenes of what life at the Emperor's court were shown. Instead, it felt as if we were in an Italian cemetery.
7 It was the transformation of Stilgar's and Chani's characters that disappoints me the most.
Chani was 200% behind Paul in the book and definitely believed that he was the One. They had a child together and he constantly reassured her she was the woman he loved, but that the marriage with Irulan was imperative.
Chani comes off as petulant during the last part of the film.
Too much focus was upon their relationship.
8 Jessica wouldn't use the voice on the Fremen to give orders.
9 The threat of destroying Dune with atomics was enough to keep the other Houses in line. How could the Fremen just hop into huge stolen space vessels and run off on a holy war?
10 Almost no mention or role for the Guild, one of the pillars of the Imperium
11 Too little subtlety as far as Jessica's manipulation of the Fremen.
Special shout-out to Lady Fenring who was great!
I enjoyed the film overall (music, special effects, desert scenes, battles, overall impression, acting), but I definitely have my reservations.
Totally fair assessment. I think adaptation wise there’s stuff I did miss. I liked Chani being the daughter of Liet Kynes, and the stress and accusation game that occurs when they first arrive on arrakis. As well as smaller role given to thuffif hawat.
But overall felt like Denis did an amazing job at shifting the story and characters just enough to make it his own while still understanding what makes the story work at its core. It did enough right for me in terms of adapting the necessary elements crucial to the book.
I did after reading the novel find a greater appreciation for both. And ultimately ended up loving the novel story more. But also loved the film for its own reasons. There’s plenty of live action adaptions that completely miss the mark like Netflix’s last air bender show or the live action death note. So I just appreciate that Denis brought dune to the big screen successfully and made something that fans of the novel and general audiences can enjoy
Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply! I appreciate and agree with most of the points you make! It's quite a film! 😊🎉
@@Alaedious of course! Thanks for watching and leaving a thoughtful comment to begin with!
Nah. I'll love it. Messiah, Children, and God-Emperor are my favorite of the 6 originals.
I’m so excited to get to god emperor dune, so many fans have been hyping it up
Well I liked it
Me too lol
I wish Denis would quit this pretentious "I don't release deleted scenes" crap. Even splitting the first book into two movies, he left out a LOT, most of all the Spacing Guild. The weirdness and richness of the Dune world is sucked out too much. No baby Alia was a bad choice, and I'll die on that hill.
Messiah can be great, but I worry he'll somehow leave out the guild, face dancers, the ghola, etc.
It will definitely be very affected by the choices made so far, and also the general style.
He obviously has no faith in audiences following a convoluted plot, so the whole conspiracy will probably be extremely simplified. Like you said, the Guild has more or less been removed from the story, which makes it difficult for them to be a major player here.
Will he keep the Face Dancers?
That leaves the Bene Gesserit and Irulan. However, Paul’s refusal to give Irulan a child is very much tied to Chani trying to become pregnant, which is NOT compatible with how we left Chani in Part 2.
I could imagine Paul being full on evil (and not doubting himself), with Chani leading a rebellion to eventually show him the error of his ways.
@@asbjrnandersen4222 if Chani ends up being a full blown scorned girl boss in the next movie, and even worse, joins in with the Fremen plotting against Paul, I'll gladly ignore the movie.
I definitely still enjoy the Dune movies he made so far. I do wish he hadn't changed Chani, and just added a few more minutes to give us a bit more about the world of Dune that is *relevant* to the whole story. I can understand needing to trim down some things, but no Spacing Guild? Mentats BARELY exist. Paul's mentat ability is removed entirely. The Fremen culture is dramatically reduced, and made to be out like this egalitarian society. Jamis's family is entirely removed.
He cut a lot of stuff that actually enriches the lore and world of Paul. I worry for the next movie. If he couldn't stomach the actual sci-fi elements of the first book, how the heck is he gonna handle an actual Navigator in a tank, or as you say, a face dancer? Will Hayt be a thing at all?
I don’t know I respect it. What he cuts he cuts. And sticks to it. What he releases is his vision. I respect that more than Zack Snyder announcing a directors cut before the regular film is released. I agree he left out some stuff but let’s keep in mind both films are well over 2 hours.
And at the end of the day the studio still needs profit. Too long of a run time means less showings. I think he did a pretty good job of making the film his own, while still capturing the heart and core of the novel.
To the Alia point, it just wouldn’t work. Having a toddler try to deliver dialogue that sounds like it’s an adult wouldn’t work. We saw it in the Lynch version. Most child actors can’t deliver kid lines well, let alone adult dialogue.
That aside, thanks for watching and commenting :) I appreciate the response and feedback
@@formerfilmstudent8349
I also respect that he cut it down, but I like what Peter Jackson did with LOTR, where he acknowledged that it’s easier to stomach an overlong movie at home :)
@@formerfilmstudent8349 "it just didn't work" because he didn't even try when all the modern movie tech would have finally been able to bring alia to life the way she deserved.
Personally, I don't respect the decisions to leave all the extra scenes out. The Dune fans who've been wanting a decent adaptation for decades have earned it imo. And again, leaving out the spacing guild is a huge misstep. The guild are VITAL to the entire ending of the first book. They put it all into context. Their control over interstellar space flight and reliance on spice is the whole reason Paul taking over Arrakis is such a big problem for everyone, and makes the Emperor essentially powerless.
Dune Messiah is my favorite Dune book.
Skip the first 7 min of this video if you want to get what you clicked on this video for. Blah blah blah
Thanks for the kind words and insightful and constructive criticism :)
Ima be real here, they built up a galactic jihad for 200,000 words and then Faded to Black. One of the biggest let downs in fiction right there. He's a good writer and it was choice for Herbert to skip it, but there's so much wasted potential.
That’s a totally fair assessment, I know a lot of fans rank it as their least favorite book. And I’ll admit I wish it was longer. I do enjoy the story especially the character work with Paul. But definitely feel like it wasn’t as fleshed out as I would have liked. Still enjoyed the read tho, however, I’m enjoying children of dune a lot more
@@formerfilmstudent8349I actually prefer what frank did. So easy to turn dune into another action series but dune was never that n it's others fault for perceived as such.
@@travisgray8376 well I will say, I think that dune part 1&2 did do an excellent job adapting. Since the book is very internal.
TBF that is a Herbert trademark. Even the battle of Arakeen at the end of the first "Dune" book was something of a denouement and the latter books continue that tradition. *Spoilers: If You Have Not Read Past "Dune Messiah"* I have been rereading them lately and just finished "Heretics of Dune" and found myself chuckling at the rather terse climax to that part of the story. The strategic and mental prowess of the Bashar Miles Teg are built up throughout the entire novel and just when you think you are about to experience an absolutely epic showdown between him, his gathered forces of veteran fighters and the new villains in the form of the powerful and ruthless super-power presented by the Honored Matres...
TEG: Men! I have a dangerous and daring task for you! We are going to attack the Honored Matres and steal a No-Ship which will be heavily guarded and will be an almost impossible feat. Are you with me? Good! Gather your weapons, and let's go!
...Literally Next Chapter...
TEG: Well, that sure was a difficult and exciting battle, but we sure outfought them and got the mission accomplished. On to Rakis where we will goad our enemies into a suicidal, titanic battle for control of Rakis (Arrakis).
...Literally Next Chapter...
It was an incredible last stand for the ages! Oh, and Arrakis was completely destroyed. Gone. The planet entirely obliterated. ...Then End.
😂😂😂 I am not really criticizing though - action and adventure is just not something that particularly interested Herbert, and really Dune is about big ideas, intellectual struggles, and relationships. There are plenty of swashbuckling stories and writers that spin excellent stories in that vein.
Sorry 8min
More insightful criticism. Genuinely thank you. :)
no.
Thanks for the insightful response :)
@formerfilmstudent8349 to state in advance to people you don't know, let alone even see, that they will hate something is disgusting clickbait/monetization tactics.
@@bober1019 yes 100% I said in the video it was clickbait 😂
@formerfilmstudent8349 and it doesn't make it right.
@@bober1019 never said it did :) but I appreciate the comments. Every comment even negative and even dislikes count as engagement. I do appreciate it, thank you.
A year or so back i had my knee completely replaced and re read the entire series back to back
I thought DV's Dune II was a masterpiece best fantasy film I've seen since The 2 Towers
The omissions and extras seem to flow perfectly in DV's Dune universe.
Couldn’t agree more. He did an excellent job at knowing what to include, and what could be changed without changing the true heart of the story! Sorry about your knee I hope you’re happy and healthy and doing well!
These white savior movies are awesome.
White savior???
Not really a white savior movie. The film and by extension the novel are about the dangers of religion and the problem with messiah figures. Paul isn’t the savior of the Fremen. He uses them and manipulates them to assist in his own goal.
Paul and the Atreides aren't saving anyone. It's hilarioius people saw these movies and still think that.
@@benjalucian1515 I think anyone who thinks they’re white savior stories completely missed the point of the story lol
@@formerfilmstudent8349 Very much so.
There are another 15 books in the DUNE universe.
And it's all fiction!
Apologies did I say in the video it wasn’t fiction?